Possible Solution for a Grass Court Masters?

[Robert F]

On TC today they were discussing the need for a Grass Court Masters. We've talked about it here for years.
Barriers have been the short season, hurting the current grass court events and possibly harming the clay events after Wimby.

I have 3 Possible Solutions that minimize or avoid those problems:
1.) People worry that if you made Halle a masters then it would sink Queen's and vice versa. Why not make them both masters? Start where the bye players play--so shorter draws and still done in a week instead of the extended time many of the Masters are taking now. Either let the top players choose which draw to enter or use seeding to determine who goes where Odd years 1 and 4 go to Halle, Even years 1 and 4 go to Queens and work down the draw.

2.) Make Halle and Queens a two locaction Masters. 1/2 the Draw in Halle and 1/2 the Draw in Queens. Then for the finals alternate location each year. Even better, make it a combined Men's/Women event. 1/2 of each draw at each locaction. Odd years Women's Final at Halle. Odd years Men's final at Queens.

3.) Or make Halle and Queens similar to Toronto/Montreal.

This strengthens the two biggest grass court events outside of Wimby. Doesn't really change the schedule.
Then maybe bump up some of the 250's to 500s. With such a sort grass season maybe it is only fair that most of the events are worth more.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Cancel Paris Bercy Master's. Promote Tokyo to a M1000.
Convert Hamburg to a master's 1000 & change its surface to Grass. Adjust the schedule accordingly. Push Wimbledon a week further if needed.
Move Umag 250 to the place of Serbian open in clay court schedule, do the same with Austrian 250 as well.
The pre USO clay season makes no sense.

 

[NAS]

Cancel Paris Bercy Master's. Promote Tokyo to a M1000.
Convert Hamburg to a master's 1000 & change its surface to Grass. Adjust the schedule accordingly. Push Wimbledon a week further if needed.
Move Umag 250 to the place of Serbian open in clay court schedule, do the same with Austrian 250 as well.
The pre USO clay season makes no sense.

Nope, not going to cancel Paris master, that master most of the time deliver apart from 2017, some good runs and fun matches. Hell I don't remember single bad Paris master tournament after 2017 means six straight good tournament, no master in last six seven years has that consistency apart from yec but yec 2022 was underwhelming for me, if I have to remove then Madrid and Canada is my top pick.
Most of the times apart from Carlos 2022 run and Tsonga 2014 run, most of their tournament in last 10 -14 years has been boring

 

[NAS]

On topic pick your posion and move on, make queens or halle one master, remove Madrid, and change queen or halle whichever don't become master week

 

[Ron5]

Downgrade Madrid or Shanghai to ATP 500 Category, and promote Queens to 1000. Extend it to 56 players draw, over one week.

 

[CyBorg]

I don't care. Bring back har-tru.

 

[rUDin 21]

Agree with most of the things said here.
Promote Halle and/or Queens to 1000,move W one week further if needed.
As for the clay season in July, nobody will cry about one or two 250s.
I would also make Shanghai indoors to add more credibility to post USO season.

 

[ppma]

Option 3 seems the nicest options to me.

But I don't know that the Queens or Halle venues are enough to handle an event of that calibre. Now, some people propose to downgrade Madrid to a 500 while having some of the most versatile en equiped venues of all the M1000s.

 

[BeatlesFan]

This has been said here a thousand times here over the years: Queen's will never become a Masters. It doesn't have the # of courts or required parking. It cannot expand because it's in a protected historic zone. The organizers have addressed this many times. It's a dead issue.

 

[TTMR]

The only way is to downgrade Wimbledon to Masters.

I'm in favour.

 

[Robert F]

This has been said here a thousand times here over the years: Queen's will never become a Masters. It doesn't have the # of courts or required parking. It cannot expand because it's in a protected historic zone. The organizers have addressed this many times. It's a dead issue.

But wouldn't it have the facilities if it only had half the draw of a Masters and worked with Halle?

Or since the grass season is so short, let the Grass Masters start with a smaller draw?

Bascially Halle and Queens typically get the higher end players since it gets them the match experience and then some time off before Wimby.
So they are doing the work of a masters without the cred.

 

[helterskelter]

On TC today they were discussing the need for a Grass Court Masters. We've talked about it here for years.
Barriers have been the short season, hurting the current grass court events and possibly harming the clay events after Wimby.

I have 3 Possible Solutions that minimize or avoid those problems:
1.) People worry that if you made Halle a masters then it would sink Queen's and vice versa. Why not make them both masters? Start where the bye players play--so shorter draws and still done in a week instead of the extended time many of the Masters are taking now. Either let the top players choose which draw to enter or use seeding to determine who goes where Odd years 1 and 4 go to Halle, Even years 1 and 4 go to Queens and work down the draw.

2.) Make Halle and Queens a two locaction Masters. 1/2 the Draw in Halle and 1/2 the Draw in Queens. Then for the finals alternate location each year. Even better, make it a combined Men's/Women event. 1/2 of each draw at each locaction. Odd years Women's Final at Halle. Odd years Men's final at Queens.

3.) Or make Halle and Queens similar to Toronto/Montreal.

This strengthens the two biggest grass court events outside of Wimby. Doesn't really change the schedule.
Then maybe bump up some of the 250's to 500s. With such a sort grass season maybe it is only fair that most of the events are worth more.

I think option 3 is the best option, with one caveat. Halle and queens would not want to be held only every second year. So, I think it would have to be that in even years, one is a 1,000 and the other a 500, and in odd years, the reverse.

 

[NeutralFan]

The only way is to downgrade Wimbledon to Masters.

I'm in favour.

I second that, son!

 

[BeatlesFan]

But wouldn't it have the facilities if it only had half the draw of a Masters and worked with Halle?

You can spin any hypothetical you wish, it impossible for Queen's to ever become a Masters. The facilities there are literally 5% as large as IW and 15% as large as Cincy.

This discussion comes up literally every year. Queen's is in a historic district where any expansion is prohibited and impossible. They did expand their Centre Court in 2016 and it took 11 years to get around the restrictions, but the cramped facilities around that court can't be expanded.

The buildings around the venue are protected, none can be razed for massive areas for parking which are required for Masters status.

 

[Gerco]

You can spin any hypothetical you wish, it impossible for Queen's to ever become a Masters. The facilities there are literally 5% as large as IW and 15% as large as Cincy.

This discussion comes up literally every year. Queen's is in a historic district where any expansion is prohibited and impossible. They did expand their Centre Court in 2016 and it took 11 years to get around the restrictions, but the cramped facilities around that court can't be expanded.

The buildings around the venue are protected, none can be razed for massive areas for parking which are required for Masters status.

So that leaves Halle in best position? Or Stuttgart? Hamburg?

 

[Gerco]

The ATP adapts several Masters 1000 to almost 2 weeks format but doesn´t bother to create even 1 Master 1000 on grass. Great job.

 

[Gerco]

Cancel Paris Bercy Master's. Promote Tokyo to a M1000.
Convert Hamburg to a master's 1000 & change its surface to Grass. Adjust the schedule accordingly. Push Wimbledon a week further if needed.
Move Umag 250 to the place of Serbian open in clay court schedule, do the same with Austrian 250 as well.
The pre USO clay season makes no sense.

Casper Ruud hates this post.

 

[Robert F]

You can spin any hypothetical you wish, it impossible for Queen's to ever become a Masters. The facilities there are literally 5% as large as IW and 15% as large as Cincy.

This discussion comes up literally every year. Queen's is in a historic district where any expansion is prohibited and impossible. They did expand their Centre Court in 2016 and it took 11 years to get around the restrictions, but the cramped facilities around that court can't be expanded.

The buildings around the venue are protected, none can be razed for massive areas for parking which are required for Masters status.

It has a 32 draw now.
So if it only had to do 1/2 a 64 draw, it doesn't change the size requirements of the field and court needs
I don't know if there are other standards it would have to adjust to be a masters that would make it impossible due to its limited footprint. Vendors etc.

I'm suggesting some adjusted type of masters since the grass season is so short and in a sense special.
A combinded draw with Halle or a smaller mini masters format.

Based on what you are saying it would be difficult to do a combined Men's/women's event unless they really made a small draw.

It might take some off the wall creative solutions to make it happen.

 

[Tano]

I don't care. Bring back har-tru.

The number of tournaments on hard courts should decrease, but seen from a business model, it is not surprising that tournaments on this surface predominate throughout the circuit.

 

[Robert F]

So that leaves Halle in best position? Or Stuttgart? Hamburg?

If you made Halle a masters, you'd screw Queens since all the top players would have to go to a Masters or you'd have to move Queens before Halle.

 

[Tano]

The only way is to downgrade Wimbledon to Masters.

I'm in favour.

May the expansion of Wimbledon promote the inclusion of a Masters 1000 tournament a couple of weeks before.

 

[Nappa]

Downgrade Madrid or Shanghai to ATP 500 Category, and promote Queens to 1000. Extend it to 56 players draw, over one week.

Madrid is great tournament. You gotta have a M1000 on grass but not to destroy an existing successful and thrilling m1000

 

[King_olaf_the_hairy]

There's a large tennis venue in the 16th arrondissement of Paris which is directly adjacent to the Jardin des Serres d’auteuil historic gardens and greenhouses. They have ample space to accommodate a M1000, and could easily convert their grubby little dirt courts into proper lawns with the help of their green-fingered next door neighbours. Et voilà! A nice grass-court masters event just after the clay slam in Rome.

(Bonus points awarded for getting one over on the French.)

 

[TTMR]

May the expansion of Wimbledon promote the inclusion of a Masters 1000 tournament a couple of weeks before.

Interesting idea. Only problem is resurfacing the courts in time for Wimbledon, otherwise they will be slow throughout the tournament and not just the final eight or nine days.

 

[fedfan24]

Get rid of Paris and Shanghai. Upgrade one of Halle or queens to 1000, or change Hamburg to grass like stuttgart did and make that a grass 1000. Replace Shanghai with a new indoor tournament in Spain or Germany.

 

[tennis3]

The only way is to downgrade Wimbledon to Masters.

I'm in favour.

Newport is already a de facto Masters. Just make it official. How many players are already tanking Wimbledon to make sure they have time to travel and prepare for Newport? Every year, only 13% of the original draw remains after the first week because the other 87% don't care.

No space issues here. Puts Wimbledon Centre Court to shame.

 

[Rosstour]

I'm thinking that the grass season as it stands is probably already in jeopardy bc of all the injuries.

Maybe the Saudis can buy Queen's and triple the purse to keep it tempting for the players.

 

[helterskelter]

You can spin any hypothetical you wish, it impossible for Queen's to ever become a Masters. The facilities there are literally 5% as large as IW and 15% as large as Cincy.

This discussion comes up literally every year. Queen's is in a historic district where any expansion is prohibited and impossible. They did expand their Centre Court in 2016 and it took 11 years to get around the restrictions, but the cramped facilities around that court can't be expanded.

The buildings around the venue are protected, none can be razed for massive areas for parking which are required for Masters status.

I’ve been to Queen’s many times. I think it could handle a 56-player draw, perhaps 64. The event used to have more players in it. 96 would indeed be a stretch but I think masters events should be capped at 64 players. It could definitely not handle a masters event with both men’s and women’s draws simultaneously.

Why does the ATP require parking areas? Queen’s Club is easily accessible by public transport. Nobody needs to drive to the event. Does Wimbledon have huge parking areas? It is much more remote by tube/train/bus from central London than Queen’s Club. The American events certainly need lots of parking. I don’t think European ones do. I have been to Roland Garros and Hamburg too and don’t recall them having big lots, either, though they may do. Driving in central London or Paris is a nightmare. Queen’s Club could easily be incorporated in an expanded congestion charge zone in future, too. (It’s already in the ULEZ).

 

[TTMR]

Get rid of Paris and Shanghai. Upgrade one of Halle or queens to 1000, or change Hamburg to grass like stuttgart did and make that a grass 1000. Replace Shanghai with a new indoor tournament in Spain or Germany.

There is no Dictator of the ATP that determines the schedule and sites of the tour. A tennis venue and event already exists, then applies to be made a Masters.

An organization/city needs to build a tennis venue that meets or exceeds the present exacting standards for a Masters, start holding smaller events there, prove that it will be profitable as a tennis tournament, then lobby (ie. bribe) the relevant ATP committee to make it a Masters (plus negotiations for scheduling vis-a-vis other tournaments) and revoke the status of another tournament.

 

[fedfan24]

There is no Dictator of the ATP that determines the schedule and sites of the tour. A tennis venue and event already exists, then applies to be made a Masters.

An organization/city needs to build a tennis venue that meets or exceeds the present exacting standards for a Masters, start holding smaller events there, prove that it will be profitable as a tennis tournament, then lobby (ie. bribe) the relevant ATP committee to make it a Masters (plus negotiations for scheduling vis-a-vis other tournaments) and revoke the status of another tournament.

Who decided to replace Hamburg with Madrid and Madrid indoors with Shanghai?

 

[xFedal]

I'm thinking that the grass season as it stands is probably already in jeopardy bc of all the injuries.

Maybe the Saudis can buy Queen's and triple the purse to keep it tempting for the players.

Queens or any UK event is bad for sports athletes, they tax ur endorsement money,.

 

[TTMR]

Who decided to replace Hamburg with Madrid and Madrid indoors with Shanghai?

Billionaire ex-tennis player put up the funds for an outdoor clay tournament in Madrid, and Chinese money overbuilt a tennis venue to attract a high level Asian tournament regardless of local support that suited the ATP's desire to tap the potentially lucrative Chinese market.

Don't think Hamburg wanted to play that game.

 

[ollinger]

What ATP players are clamoring for a grass 1000 event?? Let's name them. I don't hear a groundswell. It's a surface the players don't spend significant time practicing for, so the less of it the better in my view. Dirt roads gave way to asphalt and cement, grass courts gave way to cement and clay.

 

[InsuranceMan]

What ATP players are clamoring for a grass 1000 event?? Let's name them. I don't hear a groundswell. It's a surface the players don't spend significant time practicing for, so the less of it the better in my view. Dirt roads gave way to asphalt and cement, grass courts gave way to cement and clay.

Bit of a catch 22 there mate innit

 

[TTMR]

What ATP players are clamoring for a grass 1000 event?? Let's name them. I don't hear a groundswell. It's a surface the players don't spend significant time practicing for, so the less of it the better in my view. Dirt roads gave way to asphalt and cement, grass courts gave way to cement and clay.

Clay is dirt. It's likewise been surpassed by cement (now concrete).

 

[nighthawkrr]

Newport is already a de facto Masters. Just make it official. How many players are already tanking Wimbledon to make sure they have time to travel and prepare for Newport? Every year, only 13% of the original draw remains after the first week because the other 87% don't care.

No space issues here. Puts Wimbledon Centre Court to shame.

Turn Toppa Field into new tennis stadiums!

 

[Nostradamus]

On TC today they were discussing the need for a Grass Court Masters. We've talked about it here for years.
Barriers have been the short season, hurting the current grass court events and possibly harming the clay events after Wimby.

I have 3 Possible Solutions that minimize or avoid those problems:
1.) People worry that if you made Halle a masters then it would sink Queen's and vice versa. Why not make them both masters? Start where the bye players play--so shorter draws and still done in a week instead of the extended time many of the Masters are taking now. Either let the top players choose which draw to enter or use seeding to determine who goes where Odd years 1 and 4 go to Halle, Even years 1 and 4 go to Queens and work down the draw.

2.) Make Halle and Queens a two locaction Masters. 1/2 the Draw in Halle and 1/2 the Draw in Queens. Then for the finals alternate location each year. Even better, make it a combined Men's/Women event. 1/2 of each draw at each locaction. Odd years Women's Final at Halle. Odd years Men's final at Queens.

3.) Or make Halle and Queens similar to Toronto/Montreal.

This strengthens the two biggest grass court events outside of Wimby. Doesn't really change the schedule.
Then maybe bump up some of the 250's to 500s. With such a sort grass season maybe it is only fair that most of the events are worth more.

Grass court tennis is boring,, why would want to make a masters out of it ??

 

[Robert F]

Grass court tennis is boring,, why would want to make a masters out of it ??

To reward attacking tennis.
Give more points for some higher level grass events to incentivize different games/styles.

 

[Nostradamus]

To reward attacking tennis.
Give more points for some higher level grass events to incentivize different games/styles.

they allready serve and volley about 2 times every games when they serve. i serve and volley all the time even on my 2nd serve and trying to encourage other amateurs to do the same, i am doing my part. but these idiots won't listen

 

[Deleted member 806402]

Cancel Paris Bercy Master's. Promote Tokyo to a M1000.
Convert Hamburg to a master's 1000 & change its surface to Grass. Adjust the schedule accordingly. Push Wimbledon a week further if needed.
Move Umag 250 to the place of Serbian open in clay court schedule, do the same with Austrian 250 as well.
The pre USO clay season makes no sense.

yes

 

[thrust]

The only way is to downgrade Wimbledon to Masters.

I'm in favour.

LOL!

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Casper Ruud hates this post.

Casper is Ruud

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

yes

You're back.
Welcome back xD.

 

[Shaolin]

Cancel Paris Bercy Master's. Promote Tokyo to a M1000.
Convert Hamburg to a master's 1000 & change its surface to Grass. Adjust the schedule accordingly. Push Wimbledon a week further if needed.
Move Umag 250 to the place of Serbian open in clay court schedule, do the same with Austrian 250 as well.
The pre USO clay season makes no sense.

This.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

This.

I mean, it used to be a master's in the past so they already have the facilities, roofs and everything.

 

[Rafa4LifeEver]

Nope, not going to cancel Paris master, that master most of the time deliver apart from 2017, some good runs and fun matches. Hell I don't remember single bad Paris master tournament after 2017 means six straight good tournament, no master in last six seven years has that consistency apart from yec but yec 2022 was underwhelming for me, if I have to remove then Madrid and Canada is my top pick.
Most of the times apart from Carlos 2022 run and Tsonga 2014 run, most of their tournament in last 10 -14 years has been boring

2019, 2020, 2021, 2023 were all boring.

 

[Shaolin]

I mean, it used to be a master's in the past so they already have the facilities, roofs and everything.

Yes it’s a beautiful facility and has a long history. Deserves to be a masters again.

 

[The Blond Blur]

There’s enough room in the tennis calendar to add a grass masters without having to demote a current one. All we have to do is:

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Just convert Hamburg to grass and grant it MS1000 status. It already has the facilities and was a MS1000 in the past. We get our grass MS1000, and Germany gets a premier event again. Everybody wins.

Just convert Hamburg into a GC event and restore its MS1000 status. It already has the infrastructure in place and Germany get its premier event back.

I’ve been saying for years now they just need to convert Hamburg to grass, and then reinstate it’s MS1000 status.

 

[nighthawkrr]

Make Canadian Masters grass and then swap with Washington.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

Just downgrade Wimbledon.