Possible to hit slice with as much racket head speed as a topspin shot?

[tennis_hack]

Looking at the way Dolgopolov hits slices, he's swinging as fast as possible at the ball. The ball then takes a very strange, flat trajectory and appears to undulate and move in the air.

We all know that you should hit a topspin shot as hard as you like because the spin will drop the ball back in.

But it's the opposite with the slice - the harder you swing, the more your ball will float long. So most hit slice with a moderate racket head speed.

So how do you swing as fast as possible at a slice backhand and still keep it in the court? What combination of swing path and racket face angle must you use to really beat the pulp out of the ball when hitting slice, but still manage to keep it in the court?

 

[dominikk1985]

you would need to hit the ball very thin.

 

[sp1derman]

you would need to hit the ball very thin.

^ Yup, that's how.

 

[OTMPut]

Spin.
Spin controls the depth. More spin, shorter the ball.

 

[dominikk1985]

Spin.
Spin controls the depth. More spin, shorter the ball.

not with backspin. in a backspin the depth control is by pace i.e making thin contact that the ball does not get much forward velocity.

 

[maxpotapov]

you would need to hit the ball very thin.

thin contact - I like that!
/added to my vocabulary

 

[dominikk1985]

thin contact - I like that!
/added to my vocabulary

I think it is a term from snooker or pool billard when you play a spin shot.

 

[tennisblog365]

Here is his technique on the slice and other shots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dBEUevZLsY
From what I can see, it's not as fast as his forehand acceleration, but it is a fast stroke, the way he finishes with the follow through with the slice, is different almost every time, depending on the ball he is given and the way he wants to hit it.

 

[oldschoolrules]

Slightly more linear swing trajectory but with greater acceleration through the ball coupled with a more open racquet face. Easier to execute by shifting from a continental to almost eastern forehand grip - that should put everything in right position for most players who already have decent technique. This is an aggressive shot and is really only effective when you have a ball in front of you that is bouncing chest to shoulder high and that you can really lean into.

 

[TCF]

Here is his technique on the slice and other shots. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dBEUevZLsY
From what I can see, it's not as fast as his forehand acceleration, but it is a fast stroke, the way he finishes with the follow through with the slice, is different almost every time, depending on the ball he is given and the way he wants to hit it.

Nice job, I was just going to post that video. The slow motion starts at the 1 minute mark.

 

[fuzz nation]

One reason that the slice is significantly different from a topspin shot is because the slice doesn't reverse the spin on the ball after is bounces off the court. It sends it back in the other direction with the ball still rotating more or less the same way, so the stroke doesn't need to do as much to affect the ball. In other words, it doesn't need to be as "big" as a full topspin stroke, which also reverses the spin on the ball.

Also, since a slice flies flatter than a topspin ball, it doesn't have the same potential to carry as much speed. They can be "kind of fast", but once you hit a slice too hard - especially from too low of a height - it will carry beyond the baseline too much. Agree that a faster slice is more feasible when hit from a little higher up.

The racquet path through a good slice is much more linear than a topspin stroke, so racquet speed isn't a high priority for that shot (go for too much and the mechanics can unravel). To really crack it, get a good setup, solid forward weight transfer, and a full follow through where the tip of the racquet is pointing in the general direction of your target. With good timing, this shot can almost propel itself.

 

[tkoziol]

Pretty funny coincidence, I just sent this to one of my students:
http://youtu.be/jzb_GbnMnnM?t=53s

 

[OTMPut]

not with backspin. in a backspin the depth control is by pace i.e making thin contact that the ball does not get much forward velocity.

I disagree. All spins "slow down" the ball in air and bring it down.

 

[Cheetah]

Why would anyone want to hit a slice with the same racquet head speed as a topspin?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Let's talk about RPM rather than RHS. Nadal's topspin FH and Sampras' 2nd serve (topspin or topspin-slice) have achieved spin rates of ~5000 RPM. However, according to fairly recent (2011) studies by Yandell, Federer's BH slice have been measured at an incredible 5300 RPM at times. OTOH, Roger's highest measured spin rate on his FH was about 4500 RPM.

http://www.fawcette.net/2012/02/federer-hits-with-more-spin-than-nadal-.html%20
http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/avancedtennis/john_yandell/modern_pro_slice_1/
.

 

[Shroud]

Why would anyone want to hit a slice with the same racquet head speed as a topspin?

you are facing a bunch of pace, or just want to have an attacking slice, hitting a drop shot, etc.

Its a different application of slice. Its almost all downward followthrough with a more perpendicular racketface, and not the normal "slice" that most people hit.

Watch fed.

 

[Cheetah]

you are facing a bunch of pace, or just want to have an attacking slice, hitting a drop shot, etc.

Its a different application of slice. Its almost all downward followthrough with a more perpendicular racketface, and not the normal "slice" that most people hit.

Watch fed.

You are facing a bunch of pace so you want to slice w/ more rhs? ok. but I don't subscribe to that. That would lead to more errors.

Also the slice already gets more spin that topspin so increasing rhs for spin is pointless unless you have a goal of 7000 rpm or something.

Slices aren't really used to hit winners. Yea sometimes it happens and sometimes you can do it but an attacking slice is meant to stay low after the bounce and sometimes be a short ball and sometimes it can penetrate depending on situation. In either case you don't want crazy rhs on it.
In most cases the slice is a slower ball. There's a reason for that.
And sometimes you slice because you want the opponent to generate their own pace. And sometimes you slice because you have to and generally in that situation you want a slower ball so that you can get back in position.

You don't see any pros ever swinging full on an a slice knocking back the opponent with pace and you don't see any pros swinging extra hard on a slice when they are facing a bunch of pace. If they want a bit more pace they just drive thru it a bit more.

And I do watch Fed. Don't see him hitting any slices with rhs greater than or close to a fh.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Then why is Roger's spin rate on his BH significantly higher than on his FH if the RHS on the BH is not even close to that of his FH?
.

 

[Cheetah]

I don't know. I'm just rambling. Maybe because the spin on a slice is doesn't have to counteract the incoming spin direction?

I'm sure most tennis players will notice that their bh slice has quite a lot of spin even w/o applying fast rhs.

 

[Cheetah]

And also maybe because on a bh slice more of the energy is going into producing spin instead of pace.

 

[Shroud]

You are facing a bunch of pace so you want to slice w/ more rhs? ok. but I don't subscribe to that. That would lead to more errors.

Also the slice already gets more spin that topspin so increasing rhs for spin is pointless unless you have a goal of 7000 rpm or something.

Slices aren't really used to hit winners. Yea sometimes it happens and sometimes you can do it but an attacking slice is meant to stay low after the bounce and sometimes be a short ball and sometimes it can penetrate depending on situation. In either case you don't want crazy rhs on it.
In most cases the slice is a slower ball. There's a reason for that.
And sometimes you slice because you want the opponent to generate their own pace. And sometimes you slice because you have to and generally in that situation you want a slower ball so that you can get back in position.

You don't see any pros ever swinging full on an a slice knocking back the opponent with pace and you don't see any pros swinging extra hard on a slice when they are facing a bunch of pace. If they want a bit more pace they just drive thru it a bit more.

And I do watch Fed. Don't see him hitting any slices with rhs greater than or close to a fh.

Maybe thats the disconnect. Who said RHS close to a FH? The OP said "topspin shot" and MMI said to never hit a slice FH, so it HAS to be backhand . If you watch Fed's backhand some of the slices, not all, have RHS that certainly looks as much as his backhand topspin drives.

As I said, its not the normal slice. And actually I didnt know about it myself until just a while ago. I was watching fed and his swing path on some slices. Some are almost all down with little if any forward follow through. Those are the ones you can really swing at...

 

[dominikk1985]

I disagree. All spins "slow down" the ball in air and bring it down.

is the spin really slowing down the ball velocity in air or already at contact? I would asume that the initial velocity gets lower because of the thin contact.

i'm not sure whether the dropoff is greater with spin a fastball in baseball also has backspin.

 

[Shroud]

Let's talk about RPM rather than RHS. Nadal's topspin FH and Sampras' 2nd serve (topspin or topspin-slice) have achieved spin rates of ~5000 RPM. However, according to fairly recent (2011) studies by Yandell, Federer's BH slice have been measured at an incredible 5300 RPM at times. OTOH, Roger's highest measured spin rate on his FH was about 4500 RPM.

http://www.fawcette.net/2012/02/federer-hits-with-more-spin-than-nadal-.html%20
http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/avancedtennis/john_yandell/modern_pro_slice_1/
.

Thanks Systemic, thats the type of slice I was talking about. Nice links.

 

[Cheetah]

Yea I know the slice. That's what I use myself. Fed is my avatar!

But when you slice even w/ a slow rhs you get a lot of rpm's. You can't even count the revolutions or see the ink on the ball. It's spinning fast. When you swing slow for a topspin you definitely will not get a lot of spin.
So I'm going with a) you don't have to counter spin direction and b) more energy goes into producing spin vs pace.

 

[Cheetah]

is the spin really slowing down in air or already at contact? I would asume that the initial velocity gets lower because of the thin contact.

i'm not sure whether the dropoff is greater with spin a fastball in baseball also has backspin.

The spin slows down as soon as you hit it because there is nothing acting upon the ball to increase the spin after it leaves the strings.

 

[Shroud]

Yea I know the slice. That's what I use myself. Fed is my avatar!

But when you slice even w/ a slow rhs you get a lot of rpm's. You can't even count the revolutions or see the ink on the ball. It's spinning fast. When you swing slow for a topspin you definitely will not get a lot of spin.
So I'm going with a) you don't have to counter spin direction and b) more energy goes into producing spin vs pace.

Yep. I'll add that you might have to slow down some pace that is coming at you, so its almost all spin.

 

[dominikk1985]

The spin slows down as soon as you hit it because there is nothing acting upon the ball to increase the spin after it leaves the strings.

fixed my post, see above.

 

[Cheetah]

yes the spin slows down the velocity

 

[dominikk1985]

yes the spin slows down the velocity

at contact or in air?

 

[Cheetah]

at contact or in air?

after contact. at contact there's a point where the ball stops moving. then it's accelerated. then it leaves the strings and loses velocity due to several factors.

spin / bernoullie effect or however you spell it creates a force on the ball which affects the distance covered. speed = d/t therefore speed will decrease.

 

[zaph]

No, the slice is a defensive shot. The mistake most players make is to swing far too hard.

 

[maxpotapov]

No, the slice is a defensive shot. The mistake most players make is to swing far too hard.

Not always a defensive shot, but yeah, swinging too hard is a bad idea. Dolgopolov must have a rubber band shoulder...

 

[tkoziol]

I agree with Cheetah that the rpm Roger gets on slice might be due to the fact that he doesn't have to counter his opponents spin. I'm curious about the context of those high rpm readings. I would assume that the high rpms happened when Roger was receiving a heavy spin serve or heavy spin fh (something that was already high up in rpms).

As for offensive slice. It can be used offensively, but its not nearly as useful as topspin. The way I see it, slice can be offensive in three ways:
1. Keeping the ball low on purpose to bother your opponent (perhaps your opponent is quite tall, has poor slice skills, or uses a western or Hawaiian grip)

2. Placing the ball in the perfect spot. Not really special trait of slice, this can work with topspin, flat, or framing it! Some spots on the court are too tough for you opponent to get to.

3. An approach shot. I see slice used as an approach all the time. Although this isn't a winner, its a set up shot. However, even though its just the set up, its still an offensive play. Therefore, I would count approach shots as offensive slice.

As for the OP question. No rhs cannot be as fast or faster with slice (even with Fed or Dolg). However, the RPMs (which is probably more important) can be faster than the forehand. My guess, as Cheetahs, is that it depends on the spin and rpm of the ball prior to you hitting it.

 

[TennisCJC]

Good stuff above - hit it thin.

Also, hit it on downward trajectory - take it high and hit down into court to keep fast slice in.

 

[toly]

It’s possible to hit slice with as much racket head speed as topspin shot!!!

There are data from TTW University calculator:
1. Racquet’s speed 110 mph.
2. Ball’s spin 7721 rpm.