Power Comes From The Ground

user92626 said:
what kind of coach that didn't know right sequence does matter? :) Right sequence matters in all things, mister.


So, how exactly do you propose we swing? keey saying "rebuild" will not help anybody so don't say it.

Are you saying: ignore the lower body and just swing the shoulder or the torso?
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a lot of coaches just don't know any better and are teaching the wrong sequence. evidenced by so many people here who still believe you start a fh by pushing the ground.

therefore I am asking everyone again to watch Johnny's skater vid 10 times and understand how GRF works.

and in light of recent injury talks - this is especially important... fixing the wrong sequence, and fixing the load leak, your lower body should reduce the work load by ~60%, and you will still play better.

we work on this stuff heavily in the BAc.
 
Digital Atheist said:
Slow mo for identifying balance and ground forces is deceptive and real time is better imo. Watch him hitting live here, from multiple angles.

That is a great video to see how he doesn't excessively load into his legs and he is crushing these (not saying he doesn't load).

@Chas Tennis posted an older video of a senior playing changing from a "linear" stroke to a rotational modern forehand, but the leg loading on the right knee was excessive and ridiculous imo (especially for a player with a knee issue, this might screw the other one in short order and then he has two bad knees).

It seems like the coach is recommending he hit almost all forehands like that. I couldn't see that player lasting long with such a technique at his age. Compare that to joker and make up your own mind.
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Interesting how stiff the jokers wrist looks on his fh
 
StringSnapper said:
Interesting how stiff the jokers wrist looks on his fh
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Joker is not standard ATP. his more like a hybrid, so the wrist flip is about half of what the next gen guys.

btw @user92626 this is an example of 'coahes' out there teaching the azz backwards way of using the GRF


this kind of sequence is also useless... put this guy on the same court even with someone like me he won't have time to load like this.
 
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Digital Atheist said:
Oh I've had my fair share of disagreements with the Curious thought process and the way he reaches some of his conclusions over the years. So we agree on that. I'd like to say I was right every single time, but that is statistically unlikely.

Also, I think zero is a little harsh, and I've seen a video where he was hitting some nice looking topspin forehands and both you and @zill even complimented him on the stroke. I believe it lasted one day, which was really disappointing.:whistle:
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Was probably mini tennis. I remember you and I “liking” a mini tennis video he posted. His stroke was correct, but I also predicted that it would fall apart when he went back to the baseline and it did.
It should be a lesson to him and others here about so-called “lag.” He was trying to hit the ball about 8 feet and his wrist was in full extension at 1/30 the power and little coiling and rotation.
 
C'mon. Everytime the skater vid is mentioned I laugh so hard it's startib to hurt. No one can be so obtuse.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
@shug

Newton’s Third Law says otherwise. The ground is not doing nothing. However. the Earth is so massive we do not see the action / reaction of the Earth

Ground Reaction Force (GRF) is the force exerted by the ground on a body in contact with it, equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the force the body exerts on the ground (Newton's Third Law). When pushing down or backward, the ground pushes back, allowing for walking, jumping, and running.
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Curious said:
Sorry but I can only understand the gravity(earth’s pulling). My brain doesn’t accept the concept that the ground can also push me.
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Y'all are overcomplicating it. It's just your bodyweight moving forward. Leaning into the shot. Even on the jumping backhand, jumping forehand, or the serve, when the feet are off the ground, the bodyweight is moving forward.

Try hitting a serve while jumping backward :sneaky:
 
paulwal said:
Y'all are overcomplicating it. It's just your bodyweight moving forward. Leaning into the shot. Even on the jumping backhand, jumping forehand, or the serve, when the feet are off the ground, the bodyweight is moving forward.

Try hitting a serve while jumping backward :sneaky:
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My explanation really ain’t all that complicated. How is your explanation making anything simpler?

Note: It is possible to hit an OH smash moving forward, moving backward (often with a scissor kick), moving to the side, or moving upward only. So ‘splain that.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
My explanation really ain’t all that complicated. How is your explanation making anything simpler?

Note: It is possible to hit an OH smash moving forward, moving backward (often with a scissor kick), moving to the side, or moving upward only. So ‘splain that.
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Of course you can hit the ball while moving backward. You just won't have much power behind it.
 
Curious said:
Sorry but I can only understand the gravity(earth’s pulling). My brain doesn’t accept the concept that the ground can also push me.
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Here’s a bit more for your brain not to accept (from NASA / Google Gemini):

The Earth pushes on us and we push on it. While gravity pulls you down, the ground exerts an equal and opposite "normal force" (upward push) to support your weight, allowing you to stand. Without this upward push, you would accelerate toward the Earth's center (freefall).
  • Gravity Pulls: The Earth's mass attracts you, pulling you toward its center.
  • The Ground Pushes: When standing on a surface, the ground pushes up on you with a force equal to your weight.
  • Action-Reaction: According to Newton’s third law, you also pull up on the Earth, but the Earth's massive inertia makes it accelerate toward you imperceptibly.
  • Resultant Force: The sensation of "weight" you feel is technically this "normal force" of the ground pushing back against you, rather than just the downward pull of gravity.
Essentially, you are caught in a constant push-and-pull, where the Earth's solid surface provides an upward push to counteract gravity's downward pull.
 
ProStaffFanatic said:
What cycle time is too long? Explain.


I have no idea what vid you are talking about nor what skaters have to do with this.

I'ld just like you to clarify your claim above, because it is making zero sense to me.
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takes way too long to load unload.

I posted the skater vid half dozen times... no need to repeat.. your fine.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Here’s a bit more for your brain not to accept (from NASA / Google Gemini):

The Earth pushes on us and we push on it. While gravity pulls you down, the ground exerts an equal and opposite "normal force" (upward push) to support your weight, allowing you to stand. Without this upward push, you would accelerate toward the Earth's center (freefall).
  • Gravity Pulls: The Earth's mass attracts you, pulling you toward its center.
  • The Ground Pushes: When standing on a surface, the ground pushes up on you with a force equal to your weight.
  • Action-Reaction: According to Newton’s third law, you also pull up on the Earth, but the Earth's massive inertia makes it accelerate toward you imperceptibly.
  • Resultant Force: The sensation of "weight" you feel is technically this "normal force" of the ground pushing back against you, rather than just the downward pull of gravity.
Essentially, you are caught in a constant push-and-pull, where the Earth's solid surface provides an upward push to counteract gravity's downward pull.
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No, doesn’t make sense. I only believe in gravity as I fell quite a few times. I’ve had no experience with the ground pushing me so far.
 
[/sarcasm] Tennis players, no wait, people are generally Luddites, with vacuum where their brains should be. Many have issues counting beyond 10. [/end sarcasm]
 
Curious said:
Sorry but I can only understand the gravity(earth’s pulling). My brain doesn’t accept the concept that the ground can also push me.
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I don't blame you. High end physics and science is nearly impossible for many to understand.

I tend to read Theory of Relativity anytime I come across it. Lords knows how many times, but it's still very hard for me to understand it fully.

As for Newton's 3rd law I kinda understand it enough to be settled. His first 3 laws go well together. :)
 
@sureshs - coach I will bring it back here.

so in tennis, the serve is the only shot under no time pressure. the sequence does start from the leg push.

but can you imagine - take the serve sequence, and apply that to groundies?

anyone with half a brain cell can see the big problem here.

the serve sequence has many similarities to a golf swing -

 
10sbeast888 said:
@sureshs - coach I will bring it back here.

so in tennis, the serve is the only shot under no time pressure. the sequence does start from the leg push.

but can you imagine - take the serve sequence, and apply that to groundies?

anyone with half a brain cell can see the big problem here.

the serve sequence has many similarities to a golf swing -

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Did your background check go through?

As I have said before, I don't agree with "the serve is the only shot under no time pressure." Maybe true for the pros, but rec players are under much more time pressure during serves than during groundies.

The time pressure comes from bad tosses, chasing tosses, racket not in sync with the toss, body parts not catching up together, etc.
 
sureshs said:
Did your background check go through?

As I have said before, I don't agree with "the serve is the only shot under no time pressure." Maybe true for the pros, but rec players are under much more time pressure during serves than during groundies.

The time pressure comes from bad tosses, chasing tosses, racket not in sync with the toss, body parts not catching up together, etc.
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well, let's say if they do the AccuToss perfectly.
 
10sbeast888 said:
@sureshs - coach I will bring it back here.

so in tennis, the serve is the only shot under no time pressure. the sequence does start from the leg push.

but can you imagine - take the serve sequence, and apply that to groundies?

anyone with half a brain cell can see the big problem here.
Click to expand...
Only a quarter of brain cell here. So what should I make of Pete’s slam dunk execution here? His sequence does not starting with a leg push?

https://fb.watch/GX8ceJb4VN
 
10sbeast888 said:
Joker is not standard ATP. his more like a hybrid, so the wrist flip is about half of what the next gen guys.

btw @user92626 this is an example of 'coahes' out there teaching the azz backwards way of using the GRF


this kind of sequence is also useless... put this guy on the same court even with someone like me he won't have time to load like this.
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I think it's just a demo with good exaggeration for easy understanding. It's like that Sinner's one legged FH clip that you posted. Nobody hits like that in a serious play.


At this point I think you got a few things right but by your .... inflexibility and misplaced confidence (see how nice I have become?) you pushed things too far and got a few things wrong too. :)
 
Curious said:
No, doesn’t make sense. I only believe in gravity as I fell quite a few times. I’ve had no experience with the ground pushing me so far.
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I understand it does not make sense for you, it is not intuitive.
Our body and brain are accustomed to constant gravity, so we do not feel it how it really is.

You might feel the gravity force on your body (if way stronger then on Earth) like a push on your head, shoulders, etc. (actually all your body cells) from the top.
The ground reaction force is what you would feel on your feet, the push from the bottom.

Imagine standing still hypothetically on a planet with more mass (that would not crush you totally):
You would get bruise on your feet from the reaction ground force, not gravity. Yes, this reaction force originates by gravity, it has the same strength, but going the opposite direction on your body.
Gravity would give you lump on your head at the same time (not exactly correct, but the simplified idea is like that).
At the end you would feel like being in the press, 2 forces pushes on you from opposite directions.

If no ground, just strong gravity force (e.g. you are hanging out in outer space): you would feel only gravity force on your body (hurting you from one direction only), but no reaction counter force and your body would accelerate.
 

this is in mandarin but you can use any app to translate.

I have never seen anyone else put it this way... she's basically saying the lower body provides the stability, enough to collide with an oncoming train.

that is the proper feel, not some kind of spin out to start the swing.

active shoulders, stable hips.
 
user92626 said:
I think it's just a demo with good exaggeration for easy understanding. It's like that Sinner's one legged FH clip that you posted. Nobody hits like that in a serious play.


At this point I think you got a few things right but by your .... inflexibility and misplaced confidence (see how nice I have become?) you pushed things too far and got a few things wrong too. :)
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The point of the Sinner 1-leg is balance.
 
ppma said:
Hope he finally posts it again so that you can laugh as hard as me.
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This post carries a trigger warning, so you have been warned.

SKATER VID:

@10sbeast888 You should create a thread with all of your favourite videos summarised in a couple of posts, with titles above each, and then just point people to that thread/post. Also, your username should have been 10sbeast666 since 666 is the number of the beast, and some on here might even consider you the devil!
 
10sbeast888 said:
a lot of coaches just don't know any better and are teaching the wrong sequence. evidenced by so many people here who still believe you start a fh by pushing the ground.
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Try to serve without pushing down on the ground.
Your serve will be at least 15% slower.
This topic is not even up for discussion!
 
Better_Call_Raul said:
Try to serve without pushing down on the ground.
Your serve will be at least 15% slower.
This topic is not even up for discussion!
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If this was about the serve, maybe. I mean, even the message you responded to mentioned the fh.

Right about now your signature is at risk of being cancelled due to a lack of foundation! Strange fruit.
 
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Digital Atheist said:
Y

As a doctor you are well aware of the germ theory of disease. So you know there are lots of true things that you can't see or feel, right?
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I’m not doing anything but gravity is still pulling me. But it doesn’t push me if I don’t use my muscles.
 
Curious said:
I’m not doing anything but gravity is still pulling me. But it doesn’t push me if I don’t use my muscles.
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It does even you standing still, you just do not recognize it.
Standing still: the ground pushes on your feet by a force that is equivalent of your weight.
If you add more muscle activity, the ground force increases and eventually (if the contraction is strong enough) makes you leave the ground.
 
Cap said:
It does even you standing still, you just do not recognize it.
Standing still: the ground pushes on your feet by a force that is equivalent of your weight.
If you add more muscle activity, the ground force increases and eventually (if the contraction is strong enough) makes you leave the ground.
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Well, I don’t feel it. I don’t understand it either. Let’s just move on.
 
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ballmachineguy said:
His swing at the ball pulls his legs forward. Gotta have something to pull towards. Same as on the ground. Initiate swing with upper body and the lower body complies.
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Absolutely wrong. Pete takes several walk / running steps prior to jumping, much like a back row attacker in volley ball. Or volleyball jump serve. It is primarily, if not exclusively, those pre-jump steps forward that results in his continued forward movement after leaving the ground.

Note that jump smashes in tennis and badminton (esp in doubles) do not require a forward movent at all. They can be executed either vertical movement only— just up and down.

An OH smash can also be executed moving backward — even tho the players is swinging upward & forward to meet the ball
 
10sbeast888 said:
OP has successfully created one cluster of a thread.

I did state the ground up sequence applies to only the serve in tennis.
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Do you really have to behave your age waking up super early everyday?

I was just talking about versatility and I think you can use some. Getting too predictable and boring there, mister.
 
SystemicAnomaly said:
Absolutely wrong. Pete takes several walk / running steps prior to jumping, much like a back row attacker in volley ball. Or volleyball jump serve. It is primarily, if not exclusively, those pre-jump steps forward that results in his continued forward movement after leaving the ground.

Note that jump smashes in tennis and badminton (esp in doubles) do not require a forward movent at all. They can be executed either vertical movement only— just up and down.

An OH smash can also be executed moving backward — even tho the players is swinging upward & forward to meet the ball
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How many walk/running steps does he take when he serves? He still jumps and whacks the crap out of the ball. This isn’t about whether he could hit harder moving forward vs sideways, back or the ball hit right over his head to where no movement was needed, it is about after he gets air, what allows him to swing hard.
 
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