Power vs Plow

[KennethJay]

I always found myself confused when looking through rackets because player frames were considered "low powered", but when I play with my bio 200 Tour (which is like 12.6grams) I have insane power, having most people that try my racket say that the power from my racket is enormous.

So what's the difference when I play with say like a Pure Drive which people consider "powerful" since it's a tweener. Is the "power" generated by a bigger sized head vs the power generated by plow the same?

I'm basically just asking if the "power" from plow and the "power" from "powerful" rackets the same thing. Plow=heavier balls? Would bigger sized head frames give more "speed" and less "heaviness"? Or does plow do both heavy and fast.

I guess it still depends on your strokes, how you hit the ball, and your technique. But what are your guy's thoughts on it?

 

[anubis]

It's an illusion. "plow through" means that your racquet is winning the war against physics. the pace of the on-coming ball isn't going to push your racquet off course. Your swing path does a better job at staying true to the original plan, so you aren't losing pace by going off course.

Light racquets are more easily blown off course by the pace of the on-coming ball.

Instead, I think *you* can generate a lot of power, but you are thinking it's the racquet that's doing it. Hit with a more powerful tweener racquet and you'll find your shots hitting the fence, perhaps.

Lastly, I don't think your PDGT is going to have a lot of plow through. You'd need to add another gram or two to it. They are rather light frames. The "power" you're thinking of that comes from tweener racquets is generated by very stiff frames. A very stiff frame doesn't bend to the weight of the on-coming ball, so less power is lost in the transfer from hand to racquet to ball.

Flexy, not as stiff racquets lose a little power because the force is transfered and absorbed by the frame, more so than a stiff one.

Just my amateur .02

 

[daved]

power, plow and the heavy ball

I mostly play with a Prince Original Graphite OS (~12.2 oz). I've been experimenting lately with a Prince Original White and a Head LM Radical MP (both ~11.3 oz stock plus leather grip added).

I definitely more easily can generate racquet head speed with the lighter racquets.

But when going back to the POG from the lighter racquets I'm shocked every time by how much "heavier" the ball is...and my opponents note the same thing. Just seems way easier to put pace and heavy spin on the ball with the heavier racquet.

I'm light (5'11", 155#) and I feel like I need the weight in the racquet to get the job done. I think perhaps really big, strong players like Nadal get the best of both worlds -- some are using relatively "light" racquets for a pro (12 oz or just under) and they bring the weight and the beef in the form of their own physique and strength.

 

[seekay]

I'm basically just asking if the "power" from plow and the "power" from "powerful" rackets the same thing.

They're not. "Powerful" racquets have larger heads (thus longer strings) and thicker beams (providing increased stiffness). The extreme examples are the 110+ square inch racquets that are marketed to seniors. Because of the racquets' characteristics, a short (and relatively slow) swing can get the ball back over the net. "Power" attempts to describe that trampoline effect and how well it can send the ball sailing with minimal effort.

The mechanics of a player's frame are entirely different, with the frame providing comparatively little power, but allowing the player to effectively utilize the energy they put into a long, smooth stroke. That's where plow through and topspin come into play to make a heavy ball.

 

[BC1]

They're not. "Powerful" racquets have larger heads (thus longer strings) and thicker beams (providing increased stiffness). The extreme examples are the 110+ square inch racquets that are marketed to seniors. Because of the racquets' characteristics, a short (and relatively slow) swing can get the ball back over the net. "Power" attempts to describe that trampoline effect and how well it can send the ball sailing with minimal effort.

The mechanics of a player's frame are entirely different, with the frame providing comparatively little power, but allowing the player to effectively utilize the energy they put into a long, smooth stroke. That's where plow through and topspin come into play to make a heavy ball.

This may be a dumb question, but the concept of a "heavy" ball has always intriqued me. What makes a heavier ball? Will the ball be heavier coming off a heavier player's racquet which has more flex and is not being swung as fast, or from a lighter stiffer powerful tweener that is swung at higher speeds? Or is it based on primarily ball speed (speed of ball coming off strings) and spin? I realize all things being equal, the highest racquet head speed with the highest mass behind it should produce the heaviest ball. I know there are a lot of variables involved.

 

[Minhdingo]

^^^

Like BC1, I've always wondered what's the best combination of racquet and swing speed that creates the heaviest ball. Also understanding that there are many different variables - static weight, swing weight, balance, flex, stroke mechanics, etc. But I've always rationalized it as being able to swing the heaviest racquet you can at the fastest (controllable) swing.

 

[BC1]

^^^
But I've always rationalized it as being able to swing the heaviest racquet you can at the fastest (controllable) swing.

^^^ that's it. BUT I guess the difficult part of that equation is finding the perfect ratio of swing speed and weight. At what point (weight) does the extra racquet weight slow your swing speed down. I have a 6.1 which produces a seemingly heavier ball then my pd - If I swing it fast, which I am not capable of doing all the time. However I believe I have a faster head speed with the pd or pro open, but it rarely ever seems "heavy".

 

[seekay]

You guys are right on the money. You want a lot of (comfortable, controllable) racquet head speed to give the ball a lot of velocity and topspin.

A good groundstroke will appear heavy in two ways:

1. How quickly it dives down and impacts the court.

2. How much kinetic energy it has when it hits your opponent's racquet.

So not only are you hitting it hard, but it's spinning down into the court and because of the spin, it's maintaining more speed through the bounce.

A ball with a good balance of speed and spin will bounce up at your opponent aggressively and effectively cut down their preparation time when they try and hit it back.

 

[Power Player]

Yep, and you can hit heavy balls with different trajectories. For example, Nadal hits insanely heavy with a higher trajectory and short bounce. Then you have a flatter hitter like Djoker, Berdych or Tsonga. They still hit real heavy spin but with a lower trajectory. The ball bounces more like a line drive off the ground instead of a rising fastball.

Looking past technique I believe a heavy ball boils down to the weight of the stick and the SW needs to be healthy. I have always hit my heaviest shots with a racquet that weighs 11.9 or more. The SW can be anywhere from 320-340 range.

Main thing is not to worry too much about that. It may feel like you are hitting with incredible heavy pace with one stick and not the other, but it is not always the case. I have rarely hit with anyone who beat me because of the weight of their shot. It was more about placement and the extra pace made it tougher to hit cleanly back.

 

[Minhdingo]

Just out of curiosity, when you guys look at the specs of the racquet, what is the best indication of power potential? I've always thought it was swingweight and stiffness.

 

[rosewall4ever]

I'm basically just asking if the "power" from plow and the "power" from "powerful" rackets the same thing. Plow=heavier balls? Would bigger sized head frames give more "speed" and less "heaviness"?

speed of ball from A-B denotes 'power' as people call it Effort to move the ball quickly...vs momentum of the ball after the bounce denotes 'plowthru'

how to get? 'power is swingspeed. 'plowthru' is from using body weight transfer.

talking racquets...you can get more power with larger heads because of the greater rebound,but heaviness would come from the mass - leading into swingweight etc...

 

[LeeD]

"Heavy ball"..... any incoming ball that gives trouble to the guy trying to return it. It could be topspin, backspin, pure speed, PLACEMENT.

 

[netguy]

"Heavy ball"..... any incoming ball that gives trouble to the guy trying to return it. It could be topspin, backspin, pure speed, PLACEMENT.

Drop shots then are heavy balls too! (Placement) based on your definition!

 

[LeeD]

A drop shot that works for you is a WELL PLACED ball.
A deep groundie that lands within 2' of the sidelines, and wrongfoots the opponent, can be termed a "heavy ball" because the opponent cannot effectively return it.
Just like in serving, pure speed or heaviness only takes you so far, but PLACEMENT can take you all the way to the top.
There's too much emphasis on hitting the "heavyball". That is great for levels down to 4.5, but after that, most players can handle the heavy spin or heavy speed, heavy bounce.

 

[sansaephanh]

A drop shot that works for you is a WELL PLACED ball.
A deep groundie that lands within 2' of the sidelines, and wrongfoots the opponent, can be termed a "heavy ball" because the opponent cannot effectively return it.
Just like in serving, pure speed or heaviness only takes you so far, but PLACEMENT can take you all the way to the top.
There's too much emphasis on hitting the "heavyball". That is great for levels down to 4.5, but after that, most players can handle the heavy spin or heavy speed, heavy bounce.

I thought heaviness was just how hard it is to return relative to power. I can hit the fastest deepest flat shot, but it wont compare to the fastest deepest topspin shot will it?

Have you ever seen the flat ball that comes at you lightning fast but you can put your strings on it and it will go back perfectly fine?
vs.
The driving topspin shot that you get a good swing on but you still get pushed around?

by your definition a deep lob that they didn't prepare for will be a heavy ball

 

[RadicalMPfan]

I'll have to disagree with "placement". Placement makes a heavy ball more effective, but does not make a ball heavier. The definition is subjective. The way i view a heavy ball is my ability to control it at contact. A ball that pushes and twists my racquet around that interferes with my ability to control the ball is a heavy ball in my book. Speed, acceleration, and spin are the three major components of a heavy ball.

 

[LeeD]

As said, very few players outside the top 100 can hit a true heavy ball, and they do it with good placement.
You've seen those "4.5" looking rallykings who crush the ball at each other, hitting forehands around 80 mph, topspin backhands, with perfect form. You never see these guys PLAY a set, they only hit.
That is the basis for my downplay of the "heavy" ball idea.
Watch Nadal or Fed, Haas or Murray play when they face a top player in his groove. What do they do to counter the "heavy" ball? They SLICE, slow and low. Hitting hard with tons of spin only works for a very small percentage of players, because it can be countered with little expense of energy.
Chances are, YOU (and I know I) aren't in that small percentage.

 

[Justin-JP]

A drop shot that works for you is a WELL PLACED ball.
A deep groundie that lands within 2' of the sidelines, and wrongfoots the opponent, can be termed a "heavy ball" because the opponent cannot effectively return it.
Just like in serving, pure speed or heaviness only takes you so far, but PLACEMENT can take you all the way to the top.
There's too much emphasis on hitting the "heavyball". That is great for levels down to 4.5, but after that, most players can handle the heavy spin or heavy speed, heavy bounce.

This is just wrong.

A heavy ball is simply one that is rotating at a high rpm. Take two shots travelling at the same speed towards racket-end B: The first is flat with zero rotation and the second spinning at 1000 rpm, the latter is going to feel significantly heavier on contact with the ball.

This is obviously where a higher static and swing weight pay off when hitting into a fast paced, high-rpm ball. It's much easier to return in comparison to a light racket.

 

[netguy]

I'll have to disagree with "placement". Placement makes a heavy ball more effective, but does not make a ball heavier. The definition is subjective. The way i view a heavy ball is my ability to control it at contact. A ball that pushes and twists my racquet around that interferes with my ability to control the ball is a heavy ball in my book. Speed, acceleration, and spin are the three major components of a heavy ball.

So when you barely can reach with the tip of your racquet a drop shot, are you in control of the point or not?

 

[TennisCJC]

I mostly play with a Prince Original Graphite OS (~12.2 oz). I've been experimenting lately with a Prince Original White and a Head LM Radical MP (both ~11.3 oz stock plus leather grip added).

I definitely more easily can generate racquet head speed with the lighter racquets.

But when going back to the POG from the lighter racquets I'm shocked every time by how much "heavier" the ball is...and my opponents note the same thing. Just seems way easier to put pace and heavy spin on the ball with the heavier racquet.

I'm light (5'11", 155#) and I feel like I need the weight in the racquet to get the job done. I think perhaps really big, strong players like Nadal get the best of both worlds -- some are using relatively "light" racquets for a pro (12 oz or just under) and they bring the weight and the beef in the form of their own physique and strength.

Nadal's customized AP has a sw of approximately 355 grams. So he has a stiff racket with a fairly high swingweight. Basically, he is swinging a 2x4 board.

 

[grass_hopper]

My Gamma 100T produces 351 SW. heavy ball indeed. speed after the ball hits the court is my definition of heavy ball.

 

[RadicalMPfan]

Net guy keep reading... a well placed drop shot doesn't push and twist my racquet around.

 

[netguy]

Net guy keep reading... a well placed drop shot doesn't push and twist my racquet around.

Answer my question according to your definition.

 

[RadicalMPfan]

I doesn't matter if I'm in control of the point or not. I can control a well placed dropshot, despite that I'm out of position and my shot selection is limited. A "heavy ball" has to do with controlling the ball, not the point. It is the penetrating and often torquey "feel" at impact.

 

[netguy]

I doesn't matter if I'm in control of the point or not. I can control a well placed dropshot, despite that I'm out of position and my shot selection is limited. A "heavy ball" has to do with controlling the ball, not the point. It is the penetrating and often torquey "feel" at impact.

If you can reach and control a dropshot, it wasn't a well placed dropshot.
Post #14 really said it all in my opionion.

 

[LeeD]

Hey all you guys who hit heavy balls.,
WHAT level are you?

 

[RadicalMPfan]

You are talking about control from being out of position which is irrelevant. I'm talking about control from ball to racquet impact. Lets look at the same shot in two situations. An identical 70 mph forehand directly to me, vs the same shot cross court. The ball directly to me will be heavier because It has more acceleration and speed. Cross court will have less speed and acceleration because It traveled a further distance. When this shot hits my racquet it will feel slightly less heavy even though I'm not in position. Next time someone hits a heavy drop shot I'll let you know. MAYBE you could get away with saying that figuratively.

 

[Justin-JP]

Hey all you guys who hit heavy balls.,
WHAT level are you?

It's a moot point. Even a complete beginner with zero technique but fast arms / rotation, could smack a few lucky heavy balls. Doing that consistently is another matter.

As for your question, I'm not all that familiar with the US rating but going on the scale, either 5 or 5.5. I play regularly with the 2/3rd ranked junior in the country and fully aware of what is a heavy ball, both from hitting and receiving.

 

[RadicalMPfan]

And to answer your question again netguy, If it was an impeccable drop shot and I BARELY get my racquet under it, I'm not going to be able to control it because I'm out of position. This has nothing to do with the ball being heavy. Hopefully I broke it down enough for you.

 

[LeeD]

My point.
Lots of guys here contantly eschew the advantages of a 12.4 oz racket powering the ball, making them hit like ....better than they are.
In reality, most of us, NOT ALL, are 4.0 players. Whether you smack the ball or you dink it, you AND I, cannot even beat a lower level college singles players. We might beat the high school juniors sometimes, but maybe not the top ranked kids.
My point.
At that level, you can play with a 10 oz racket, an 11oz racket, or a 12 oz racket with little difference in your overall match play.

 

[RadicalMPfan]

LeeD- What confuses me is that lets say I hit a heavy ball. If I play an opponent with good footwork and gets in position every time, will my ball be not as heavy compared to someone out of shape? I see ball heaviness as an independent variable. No matter who Federer plays his ball is going to be just has heavy.

 

[ciocc]

^^^
I think the heaviness of the ball also depends on the timing of the contact. If you are late to make the contact, the fast ball will feel heavy. On the other hand, if you make a timely clean contact, your racket won't get pushed around and hence the ball will not feel as heavy as when you hit it late.

 

[10nisne1]

My Gamma 100T produces 351 SW. heavy ball indeed. speed after the ball hits the court is my definition of heavy ball.

Probably closest to my definition of a "heavy ball". However, more specifically, the speed of the ball right before contact is made by the receiver.

If I'm 2 feet behind the baseline, but the ball is hit inside the service line, by the time, I make contact, the ball would probably have lost 1/2 the speed or more. Where else, if I'm 2 feet behind the baseline and the ball lands 6 inches from the baseline, the ball would probably only have lost 1/4 to 1/3 of the speed.

The concept of the "heavy ball" is more defined by the receiver than the hitter in my opinion.

10

 

[Justin-JP]

My point.
Lots of guys here contantly eschew the advantages of a 12.4 oz racket powering the ball, making them hit like ....better than they are.
In reality, most of us, NOT ALL, are 4.0 players. Whether you smack the ball or you dink it, you AND I, cannot even beat a lower level college singles players. We might beat the high school juniors sometimes, but maybe not the top ranked kids.
My point.
At that level, you can play with a 10 oz racket, an 11oz racket, or a 12 oz racket with little difference in your overall match play.

I don't really agree with what you're saying. Maybe at the level you play, some of what you're saying holds true. But even still, there are benefits to heavy rackets at all levels where the weight does not hold the player back. You're also assuming that everyone has the same physical characteristics; naturally, some people will find even 12.5oz / 350sw's sticks easy to swing.

As per my post above, a couple of times a week I practice with the 2/3rd ranked junior here in Japan. My typical stick is a Bio 200 Tour and it's a dam sight easier than playing with anything sub 12oz with a low swing weight; yes it's possible to use lighter sticks but you can certainly feel them getting pushed around. I'm pretty sure if you had the experience at this level, you'd change your tune and be able to see the benefits even at lower levels. Who does not want stability, right?

To emphasis the stability point, a couple of guys I play with here in Japan (maybe 4.5 level on the US scale) use around the 11oz weight and sub 320 sw. They are decent players and pretty solid all-round but there is a real easy way to win the point and that's to hit a heavy, fast paced forehand directly to them and you can watch the their rqt flutter, even if they are well back with plenty of time to prep, the ball isn't coming back with much control or pace.

 

[10nisne1]

I don't really agree with what you're saying. Maybe at the level you play, some of what you're saying holds true. But even still, there are benefits to heavy rackets at all levels where the weight does not hold the player back. You're also assuming that everyone has the same physical characteristics; naturally, some people will find even 12.5oz / 350sw's sticks easy to swing.

As per my post above, a couple of times a week I practice with the 2/3rd ranked junior here in Japan. My typical stick is a Bio 200 Tour and it's a dam sight easier than playing with anything sub 12oz with a low swing weight; yes it's possible to use lighter sticks but you can certainly feel them getting pushed around. I'm pretty sure if you had the experience at this level, you'd change your tune and be able to see the benefits even at lower levels. Who does not want stability, right?

To emphasis the stability point, a couple of guys I play with here in Japan (maybe 4.5 level on the US scale) use around the 11oz weight and sub 320 sw. They are decent players and pretty solid all-round but there is a real easy way to win the point and that's to hit a heavy, fast paced forehand directly to them and you can watch the their rqt flutter, even if they are well back with plenty of time to prep, the ball isn't coming back with much control or pace.

I think more advanced players tend to use heavier rackets because the level of their opponent as well as their own capability.

If you are playing higher level players, most likely you will be receiving some "heavy balls" and might not always be in position to take a full swing on the return. In situations like those where you might have to take a shorter or slower swing, a heavier racket will benefit based on physics where force = mass x acceleration. You can hit the ball back with more force with less acceleration due to higher mass.

So in my opinion, when choosing a racket based on weight, you should consider your capabilities as well as the capabilities of the of the opponents that you would be facing on a regular basis.

Just my 2 cents.

10

 

[LeeD]

I"m with poster 35. The opposition determines how heavy a racket you really need.
I said most of you are 4.0's with a few exceptions, of course. The exceptions can use what they want.
As a 3.5 - 4, you won't face any consistent hard shots, heavy spins, or any of that pro level stuff.
Few of you are better than 4.0.

 

[Muppet]

speed of ball from A-B denotes 'power' as people call it Effort to move the ball quickly...vs momentum of the ball after the bounce denotes 'plowthru'

how to get? 'power is swingspeed. 'plowthru' is from using body weight transfer.

talking racquets...you can get more power with larger heads because of the greater rebound,but heaviness would come from the mass - leading into swingweight etc...

If so, is it easier to generate plowthru (leading to 'heaviness') using a more flexible racquet?

 

[tata]

An oz open stringer i spoke to while waiting for my frame to get done was that plow = swingweight. If that holds true, then how much plow you have depends on the swingweight while how much power you got is a variable factor on headsize, string pattern, string tension, type of string, frame stiffness, and all these other things put together?

 

[LeeD]

If you don't have heavy weights, you can compensate with a faster swing speed. None of us swing as fast as we can, so there is room for improvement.
But if the racket is too heavy to swing fast, it won't develop power.

 

[Xonemains]

Are you guys kidding me?? LOL

all racquets have power, stiffer more so. Plow thru really depends on the person holding the stick!!

i can hit a very heavy ball consistently with any racquet, very light or very heavy. the only thing that changes is the racquet head speed (RHS)you can achive for both.

for the lighter racquets, the RHS is stupidly very fast, you can still plow thru the ball and the ball tends to go higher with more spin, but still heavy.

the heavier racquets, your RHS is abit slower. but there is more mass so you still get the heavy plow thru and the ball goes thru the court more with abit less spin.

you wanna hit more consistant heavy balls, find the perfect swingweight for yourself. How to find the perfect swingweight for yourself? ASK me. i'll explain in the next post. i have to hit the courts now.

 

[Rafa4Ever]

for me, I like something that has low power but lots of plow through. Instead of having to hold back my swing a little with a powerful racket I can keep a full stroke but always know I have the potential to drive the ball and go for the winner. Plus it just feels better to hit with a racket that has nice plow through

 

[fuzz nation]

I always found myself confused when looking through rackets because player frames were considered "low powered", but when I play with my bio 200 Tour (which is like 12.6grams) I have insane power, having most people that try my racket say that the power from my racket is enormous.

So what's the difference when I play with say like a Pure Drive which people consider "powerful" since it's a tweener. Is the "power" generated by a bigger sized head vs the power generated by plow the same?

I'm basically just asking if the "power" from plow and the "power" from "powerful" rackets the same thing. Plow=heavier balls? Would bigger sized head frames give more "speed" and less "heaviness"? Or does plow do both heavy and fast.

I guess it still depends on your strokes, how you hit the ball, and your technique. But what are your guy's thoughts on it?

I think that the tricky thing with discussing "power" is that it can mean more than one thing.

Some racquets have what's considered to be more power because they're stiffer and more lively or responsive upon contact with the ball. In short, they have more "pop" and a relatively compact stroke can send the ball on its way with decent zip.

Other frames may be much softer and seem to be low powered because they are less lively. That same compact stroke doesn't seem to do so much to the ball, but the upside is that this more subdued response makes shots more controlled and predictable, so it's easier to take a fuller swing and still keep the ball down on the court. While these racquets don't seem to have power, they allow some folks to swing with more power in their game. Your Dunlop is more in this family.

I feel like I have extra "power potential" from my heavier racquets, but my old ProStaff 6.1 Classics were both heavy and quite stiff. That was great for serve and volley work, but full strokes could fly away too easily. When I switched to other racquets with similar weight and more flex, the extra control I enjoyed with softer alternatives was great for helping me land more strokes. My current "softies" include the Volkl C10 and Yonex RD Ti 80.

As for a "heavy" ball... well, obviously opinions vary on that idea.

 

[bboy_beez]

I think a heavy ball has 2 component. Mass and swing speed. The heaviest ball will have both. If you have a light racket, but have the swing speed, you can still generate a heavy ball. I watch a lot of really good volley ball player. You have the big bone chunky guy with alot of mass that has a very slow swing speed spike that ball and when his hits it, that ball slams to the ground! And then you have the skinny tall dude that weighs 130lbs and with a super fast swing speed hit just as penertrating ball as the big guy. So mass + swing speed = heavy ball. just my thoughts on the subject

 

[BlueB]

Power = Speed of the ball leaving the stringbed, all other parameters being the same, except the frame.

Plow through = Inertia, i.e. how little the frame slows down (or deflects back) upon impact. Again, everything being the same except the frames compared.

Heavy ball = Lineal speed (from A to B) * spin (RPM).

 

[pshulam]

velocity = linear velocity + angular/relative velocity of the surface of the ball due to spin

A heavy spin makes a big difference. Let's assume the spin is 3300rpm.
The angular velocity = 346 rad/sec * 6.7cm (radius of the ball) = 2318.2 cm/sec = 51.85 mph.

In addition to faster speed, it's harder to return a topspin ball since it bounces at a lower angle relative to the ground than a ball hit with no spin. Returning a topspin shot also requires more energy to reverse the spin of the ball.

 

[TennisCJC]

Just out of curiosity, when you guys look at the specs of the racquet, what is the best indication of power potential? I've always thought it was swingweight and stiffness.

Swingweight. I seem to see a strong correlation between SW and power in my game and you can see the relation in the TW power comparision tool. The Dunlop 200 Tour with SW around 350 has very high power rating and the power zone (sweetspot) is substantially bigger than other frame with the same headsize.

You should still look for a SW that is right for you level of fitness and style of play. I play SW in the 330-340 range but don't feel like I can go above this comfortably.