Practising serves in my front garden

[Chas Tennis]

I suspect that people who 'know how to throw' are using some internal shoulder rotation (ISR) in their motion. I believe that you can throw without using much ISR - including the infamous 'throws like a girl'.

I can throw with or without ISR. ISR feels a little uncomfortable since I don't think that I used enough of it when throwing in the past.

High speed video could easily show the nature of the throw and amount of ISR.

Certainly ISR is the common thread between professional baseball pitchers and professional level servers.

Maybe this relates to the throwing & tennis serve connection -

The baseball pitch and the serve both use the same motion to develop the final high baseball speed and final high racket head speed.

Baseball pitch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2PBLcp9tWM

At 46, 58 and 1:10 you can clearly see Tim Lincecum's upper arm rotate and especially his biceps flop around violently right afterward. (2500 fps?)

Overhead view of baseball pitch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8s1KbK1eaI

Tennis Serve
https://vimeo.com/66720415

Look for the biceps of Raonic to flop around after impact in a similar manner to the Lincecum pitch.

Another
https://vimeo.com/66720474

This same motion can be clearly seen in most of the other pro serve videos.

https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos

For now, I believe that if you train by throwing and your throw has no ISR it could help smoothness but train different muscle memory than is needed on the serve. People have success with throwing rackets, etc., so it must have value for many people.

 

[Topspin Shot]

I suspect that people who 'know how to throw' are using some internal shoulder rotation (ISR) in their motion. I believe that you can throw without using much ISR - including the infamous 'throws like a girl'.

I can throw with or without ISR. ISR feels a little uncomfortable since I don't think that I used enough of it when throwing in the past.

High speed video could easily show the nature of the throw and amount of ISR.

Certainly ISR is the common thread between professional baseball pitchers and professional level servers.



For now, I believe that if you train by throwing and your throw has no ISR it could help smoothness but train different muscle memory than is needed on the serve. People have success with throwing rackets, etc., so it must have value for many people.

The OP is using ISR. This is his problem; he's using way too much ISR way too soon in the motion rather than serving like he would throw a ball. And this is why people are telling him to stop serving the way he's serving before he injures his shoulder.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The OP is using ISR. This is his problem; he's using way too much ISR way too soon in the motion rather than serving like he would throw a ball. And this is why people are telling him to stop serving the way he's serving before he injures his shoulder.

I avoid analyzing fast serve motions on low frame rate videos even if the motion blur is good.

Can you pick a time on one of his videos as an example that shows the ISR that you are referring to?

 

[psv255]

Hey SS, in the sock/bag drill, you split the motion into 2 at exactly the point where it should be connected - see that point where the bag goes behind your head and rests there until you kind of push it forward out from behind your neck? Instead of resting it there, it should continue to move from left to right somewhere over your head and then launch up and forward as your elbow launches forward the same way as coach Pat Dougherty shows in this video at 50-55 seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EFWB18kPWY#t=50

the elbow launched forward by the chest should be timed so you can prevent the bag stopping behind your head. That's the real key to getting the most out of this drill. I'd also suggest you put a little less weight in the bag for starters

one more thing - try keeping the racket tip up instead of letting it go down into the 'backscratch' position - see if you can feel how it gets pulled down under its own weight as you swing.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Throwing as a Technique for Learnimg the Tennis Serve

Pat Dougherty has a video about throwing as a learning tool for the serve.

It is not really possible to see what is being done when the 30 or 60 fps video is simply played or how it might relate to the 'proper throwing motion' or the tennis serve.

Here are frames that show an important part of the throwing motion and serve - internal shoulder rotation. Update 6/13/2018 - Compare to the serve.

Throw with double exposure of forearm.

Serve with double exposure of forearm and racket.

Show similarity of upward throw and serve.

This is my opinion so don't base your throwing motions on this view without making sure it is safe for you -

This frame, directly from the YT video, shows two images of the forearm superimposed. The images were taken at slightly different times (probably because the original video was interlaced (?)).

The action is that the upper arm (humerus, at the shoulder) is being rotated by internal shoulder rotation (ISR). Because the forearm is at an angle to the arm, the IRS gives the hand & ball a high speed. The two superimposed images of the forearm show that the elbow angle between the upper arm and forearm is straightening very rapidly .

The upper arm is held straight out from the shoulder in the same orientation as recommended in the Ellenbecker video for ISR on the tennis serve. This orientation minimizes the risk of impingement during forceful ISR.

For the high level tennis serve, similar ISR occurs but the entire arm is straight. Then the racket has to have an angle (the angle rapidly changing) to the forearm in order to develop racket head speed from the ISR.

In the video, she displays a trophy-position-like motion leading to the forward throw.

Both this throwing motion and the tennis serve are getting a similar large contribution from ISR.

This is the first time I have ever been able to see that the throwing motion - as a practice technique - had any direct relation to the tennis serve.

(It is unfortunate that all instructional videos on rapid athletic motions are not presented using high speed video where the motions would be clear and easy to understand. Pat Dougherty's videos would be foremost since he has some excellent material.......)

Professional baseball pitcher Tim Lincecum (Red Bull). The arm is horizontal unlike the vertical arm for the girl's throw above. The forceful ISR occurs just before the flopping of the biceps muscle late in the pitching motion.

Professional server Milos Raonic. Arm is more vertical than the baseball pitcher. The biceps flops around in a similar way to Lincecum's bicep following the rapid ISR.

 

[Ballinbob]

Really hope things are going well for the OP. Keep at it

 

[Topspin Shot]

Really hope things are going well for the OP. Keep at it

Definitely. He seems like a great guy. (BTW, how's your forehand going?)

 

[Ballinbob]

I will post some footage tomorrow, stay tuned

 

[Sir Shankalot]

Really hope things are going well for the OP. Keep at it

Definitely. He seems like a great guy. (BTW, how's your forehand going?)

Thanks guys - appreciate it. FWIW you seem like great guys too.

Something is definitely beginning to click. I took a look at the sock drill on feeltennis and have been practising this daily and all of a sudden the serve is beginning to feel much more smooth and natural. Previously my swing felt very awkward and forced, but the sock drill seems to be helping.

A bit of history here... thinking back, I realise that I have hardly ever done any form of throwing sports, and consequently my throwing action is pretty poor. The only throwing sport I ever did was cricket, which I hated and gave up at the earliest opportunity as a child to concentrate on rugby and track athletics. So just throwing balls around would probably not do me much good, but the sock drill is useful in that it forces me to perform a smooth and fundamentally correct motion.

I'm now at the stage where things seem to be improving and I can make better contact with the ball without muscling it. However when I'm out on court and serving to a real person then things break down a bit and I go back to my old swing, but I'm sure that is a matter of practice and muscle memory.

I'm going to shoot some emails to some real coaches this week to ask for 1 on 1 video input.

 

[Bobby Jr]

Something is definitely beginning to click...

...thinking back, I realise that I have hardly ever done any form of throwing sports, and consequently my throwing action is pretty poor.

The lack of sports which had throwing motion in them is key here and was pretty apparent imo.

As I said in my previous posts, forget the sock drill for a month - learn to throw a ball fluidly. You'll always be trying to run before you can walk if you don't. I don't believe you'll learn the key elements of throwing motion by any amount of practising the sock drill even if you do learn a fluid swing path.

 

[Sir Shankalot]

The lack of sports which had throwing motion in them is key here and was pretty apparent imo.

As I said in my previous posts, forget the sock drill for a month - learn to throw a ball fluidly. You'll always be trying to run before you can walk if you don't. I don't believe you'll learn the key elements of throwing motion by any amount of practising the sock drill even if you do learn a fluid swing path.

Bobby

Thanks for the advice. However, and no disrespect here, given that I have a poor throwing motion as a starting point, surely if I just go and throw balls around I will be ingraining a bad technique into muscle memory. How do I address this?

 

[shindemac]

Bobby

Thanks for the advice. However, and no disrespect here, given that I have a poor throwing motion as a starting point, surely if I just go and throw balls around I will be ingraining a bad technique into muscle memory. How do I address this?

This is a good drill too. When I use this drill, I notice it teaches me to use my entire body, and my timing and kinetic chain is better.

No, it's 2014. You're on the internet. Look up video on how to throw a ball properly. Yes, you will have to learn how to throw. You've already made strides with the sock drill. Now practice throwing as best you can everyday. Throw 10 times. Then shadow serve or serve 2-3 balls max. Repeat. You should notice a big difference in your serving motion.

 

[hawk eye]

Pat Dougherty has a video about throwing as a learning tool for the serve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EFWB18kPWY#t=44

It is not really possible to see what is being done when the 30 or 60 fps video is simply played or how it might relate to the 'proper throwing motion' or the tennis serve.

Here is a frame that shows an important part of the throwing motion.

This is my opinion so don't base your throwing motions on this view without making sure it is safe for you -

This frame, directly from the YT video, shows two images of the forearm superimposed. The images were taken at slightly different times (probably because the original video was interlaced (?)).

The action is that the upper arm (humerus, at the shoulder) is being rotated by internal shoulder rotation (ISR). Because the forearm is at an angle to the arm, the IRS gives the hand & ball a high speed. The two superimposed images of the forearm show that the elbow angle between the upper arm and forearm is straightening very rapidly .

The upper arm is held straight out from the shoulder in the same orientation as recommended in the Ellenbecker video for ISR on the tennis serve. This orientation minimizes the risk of impingement during forceful ISR.

For the high level tennis serve, similar ISR occurs but the entire arm is straight. Then the racket has to have an angle (the angle rapidly changing) to the forearm in order to develop racket head speed from the ISR.

In the video, she displays a trophy-position-like motion leading to the forward throw.

Both this throwing motion and the tennis serve are getting a similar large contribution from ISR.

This is the first time I have ever been able to see that the throwing motion - as a practice technique - had any direct relation to the tennis serve.

(It is unfortunate that all instructional videos on rapid athletic motions are not presented using high speed video where the motions would be clear and easy to understand. Pat Dougherty's videos would be foremost since he has some excellent material.......)

Professional baseball pitcher Tim Lincecum. The arm is horizontal unlike the vertical arm for the girl's throw above. The forceful ISR occurs just before the flopping of the biceps muscle late in the pitching motion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2PBLcp9tWM

Professional server Milos Raonic. Arm is more vertical than the baseball pitcher. The biceps flops around in a similar way to Lincecum's bicep following the rapid ISR.
https://vimeo.com/66720415

Is it me or is the arm of the girl in the video too high in the trophy pose and should Pat Dougherty have adressed this? Here hitting arm is not exactly inline with the shoulder tilt. So it's still not optimal technique.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Is it me or is the arm of the girl in the video too high in the trophy pose and should Pat Dougherty have adressed this? Here hitting arm is not exactly inline with the shoulder tilt. So it's still not optimal technique.

Are you talking about the video or the picture above? I usually avoid looking at 30/60 fps videos of serves. I did not look at the serving but only the throwing. I felt very lucky to have caught this frame of the throwing motion.

The picture shows her arm throwing. Her sort-of-trophy pose for a throw in the above video is a few frames earlier. View the video.

If you have set up YT to play at 25% normal speed that helps lot when trying to stop on particular frames. To adjust Youtube playback speed for slow motion -
http://kevinmote.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/youtube-and-vimeo-adjust-video-playback-speed/

In this picture, the throwing the arm is bent. In a tennis serve the arm is straight. The upper arm is in a line with the shoulders approximately. See the Ellenbecker video for details and to understand the angle. Up several degrees, 10-20° , seems more representative of the serves of pros that absolutely straight out.

Not sure if we are discussing the throwing or her later serving?

 

[hawk eye]

Are you talking about the video or the picture above? I usually avoid looking at 30/60 fps videos of serves. I did not look at the serving but only the throwing. I felt very lucky to have caught this frame of the throwing motion.

The picture shows her arm throwing. Her sort-of-trophy pose for a throw in the above video is a few frames earlier. View the video.

If you have set up YT to play at 25% normal speed that helps lot when trying to stop on particular frames. To adjust Youtube playback speed for slow motion -
http://kevinmote.wordpress.com/2013/08/02/youtube-and-vimeo-adjust-video-playback-speed/

In this picture, the throwing the arm is bent. In a tennis serve the arm is straight. The upper arm is in a line with the shoulders approximately. See the Ellenbecker video for details and to understand the angle. Up several degrees, 10-20° , seems more representative of the serves of pros that absolutely straight out.

Not sure if we are discussing the throwing or her later serving?

I was refering to the actual serving in the video which she did after the throwing.

To me, in the trophy pose (or phase) which is discussed in the other thread, she still keeps the elbow of her hitting arm higher than she's supposed to do according to some pictures there (where a red line is drawed through the tilting shoulders and the hiting arm) and this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGWyLmyWzvc

BTW isn't Wawrinka 'guilty'of the same thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzvyZkqcqjw

 

[Chas Tennis]

I was refering to the actual serving in the video which she did after the throwing.

To me, in the trophy pose (or phase) which is discussed in the other thread, she still keeps the elbow of her hitting arm higher than she's supposed to do according to some pictures there (where a red line is drawed through the tilting shoulders and the hiting arm) and this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGWyLmyWzvc

BTW isn't Wawrinka 'guilty'of the same thing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzvyZkqcqjw

The best information I have is the Ellenbecker video.

My interpretation only, see the video for yourself -

The main thing is how elevated is the upper arm bone (humerus) under the tight parts of the shoulder - where impingement occurs. It is an oversimplification to draw a line from shoulder 1 to shoulder 2 and see how that line lines up with the upper arm bone. The reason to simplify things is that the scapula or shoulder blade is very moveable. The details of how this can tilt up to lessen impingement is too complicated and probably varies between individuals. How flexible are your scapulas? One thing is clear that if the the upper arm goes up at too much of an angle - say the shoulders are parallel to the ground - but the arm is vertical as an extreme - then there is a much higher risk of impingement. I use what the pros are doing in videos with very forceful ISR as examples of what is most reasonable.

There is also the issue in that if tissues swell the impingement can increase and develop into an injury.

Scapular movement, see upward rotation in the picture -

The arm and scapula (shoulder blade) are attached together by the rotator cuff as an assembly. That assembly is attached to the body by many muscles that attach to the scapula. To do balancing exercises the motions and muscles should be identified and strengthened by balanced exercises, equal weights and reps. Some exercises emphasize flexibility and endurance and may involve only small weights/forces.

Since many people might not know how to strengthen, for example, the Rhomboids or Serratus Anterior, it takes some research. The posture of the most sport active scapula should be compared to the other scapula. That takes expertise. Search - scapula posture

Shoulder injuries to baseball pitchers are often attributed to scapular posture and imbalances. Corrections involve specialized exercises such as the Blackburn exercises to align, strengthen and build endurance for the scapular muscles such as the Rhomboids. The Rhomboids are interior to the mid trapizeus and don't show that much.

Just exercising without a posture evaluation and understanding the muscle functions may cause problems.

Probably the Throwers Ten is a good general program and a book such as Complete Conditioning fro Tennis, Roetert, Ellenbecker, would provide some generally good information on exercises and stretches. Keep in mind that you may have a serious imbalance that a well qualified Dr or physical therapist might be able to see.

Discussion of a few common imbalances not necessarily specific to tennis.
http://www.duffyfitness.com/articles-four-most-common.html

This Todd Ellenbecker video discusses shoulder anatomy and at minute 8 has important advice on shoulder orientation for the serve.
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&ATT=&reso=hi

Compare this form to some of the players at your club.

Other pro serve videos and some amateurs.
https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos

This looks very risky to me.

Wawrinka puts his heads closer to his shoulder than most but look at his shoulders to upper arm angle -

Also, the important time to have the shoulder-upper arm with the right orientation is when ISR occurs. That's only for some tens of milliseconds around impact. See your video of Wawrinka's serve, he's OK.

 

[Topspin Shot]

The only throwing sport I ever did was cricket, which I hated and gave up at the earliest opportunity as a child to concentrate on rugby and track athletics.

And now I know why you serve the way you do. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE_TnuVCFE0 The problem with using a bowling motion for a tennis serve is that when you bowl, you're running forward and throwing down, which takes the pressure off your shoulder. In a tennis serve, you're starting from a fixed position, and you're swinging upward to the ball. If you internally rotate your shoulder as you're swinging up, that's where the big risk for injury comes in, aside from not being able to hit as good a serve this way.

 

[hawk eye]

The best information I have is the Ellenbecker video.

My interpretation only, see the video for yourself -

The main thing is how elevated is the upper arm bone (humerus) under the tight parts of the shoulder - where impingement occurs. It is an oversimplification to draw a line from shoulder 1 to shoulder 2 and see how that line lines up with the upper arm bone. The reason to simplify things is that the scapula or shoulder blade is very moveable. The details of how this can tilt up to lessen impingement is too complicated and probably varies between individuals. How flexible are your scapulas? One thing is clear that if the the upper arm goes up at too much of an angle - say the shoulders are parallel to the ground - but the arm is vertical as an extreme - then there is a much higher risk of impingement. I use what the pros are doing in videos with very forceful ISR as examples of what is most reasonable.

There is also the issue in that if things swell the impingement can increase and develop into an injury.

Compare this form to some of the players at your club.

Other pro serve videos and some amateurs.
https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos

This looks very risky to me.

Wawrinka puts his heads closer to his shoulder than most but look at his shoulders to upper arm angle -

Ok thnx, so then most important point is the alignment of your extended arm (with the titled schoulders) at contact. Well it don't think you can draw a straight line in my serve at trophy pose like those pics in the other thread suggest, but I never had shoulder problems, and i do think the position of my arm at contact in this respect is at least reasonable. But i'm gonna be more aware of it the next time I play.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Smartphone video will show

You don't need more than 30 fps for this -

In bright sunlight, take a video of your serve from behind with a smartphone camera - camera looking along the ball's flight path. Repeat some serves until you catch the ball near the strings.

You will see exactly the angle of your shoulders and upper arm.

 

[Bobby Jr]

Bobby

Thanks for the advice. However, and no disrespect here, given that I have a poor throwing motion as a starting point, surely if I just go and throw balls around I will be ingraining a bad technique into muscle memory. How do I address this?

This is an issue with it for sure but I believe you'll learn to throw better this way than skipping straight to the sock drill, especially if you take note of the many throwing videos out there. If you throw a ball around with someone who can throw and pay attention it'll happen. Do you know anyone who fits the bill? It honestly could even be a kid who throws well.

What about any local baseball/softball/cricket leagues clubs? There would surely be someone who could offer a few tips if you asked.

 

[Topspin Shot]

This is an issue with it for sure but I believe you'll learn to throw better this way than skipping straight to the sock drill, especially if you take note of the many throwing videos out there. If you throw a ball around with someone who can throw and pay attention it'll happen. Do you know anyone who fits the bill? It honestly could even be a kid who throws well.

What about any local baseball/softball/cricket leagues clubs? There would surely be someone who could offer a few tips if you asked.

I wouldn't recommend he ask a cricket bowler how to throw. Their technique is different from throwing a baseball and is actually very close to what he is doing on his serve (which is probably where he got it from). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE_TnuVCFE0

 

[Bobby Jr]

I wouldn't recommend he ask a cricket bowler how to throw. Their technique is different from throwing a baseball and is actually very close to what he is doing on his serve..

Bowling and throwing, they're not the same thing and never have been. Throwing a cricket ball is effectively the same as throwing any roughly similar sized ball.

If I'd meant to suggest he ask a cricketer for advice on how to bowl I wouldn't have lumped them in with baseball/softball.

 

[Sir Shankalot]

Update

OK, so I have done a bit of work with an online coach - I won't name him because I have not asked his permission - and I have made a few changes. See this short video for a comparison of where I was when I started the journey to where I am now. The "now" serves shown here are very much about me concentrating on form rather than power. Would appreciate any comments.

 

[arche3]

Looks to have the same issue.

 

[JackB1]

Only difference seems to be that now you are finnishing on your right side instead os the left side, which is better. But everything else looks the same.
You are still "slapping" at the ball and the palm is opening up to the sky.

I would advise an "in person" coach to get some of the mechanics fixed, instead on an online coach.

 

[Dimcorner]

I see a very slight improvement with your right hand stabilizing you more. However your racquet side still has same problem. I think your elbow is coming up at the same time as your wrist, which makes you shove the racquet instead of whipping it around.

The way I think of it is like a badminton smash. Take a look at this and see if it helps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNVC5PVJyPQ
Your elbow has to lead the way for your wrist.
When I teach people to smash in badminton I tell them thing in 3 steps.
1. get set, loose arm but wrist at head level, bent knees (similar to trophy position in tennis).
2. start drive legs up and forward, start rotate trunk, bring elbow to ear and wrist behind your head. (think of it like trying to drop an elbow down on to something/someone. Elbow is right next to your head about to rain elbow pain on someone below your)
3. whip your wrist up and forward, squeeze grip at the top, relax everything once you impact. finish with racquet leg in front to prevent your face from meeting the floor.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Second 36

1) Feet on ground, little or no timed leg thrust.
2) I believe that the bent elbow is straightening to provide racket head speed. Not high serve technique. My post very recent post on a serve video discussed the same issue, see Pat Dougherty link in that thread. See reply #11 http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=493313
3) Going to impact, the racket should be edge on and arm straight for a high level serve.
4) The technique makes me think that you do not have a continental grip. My posts two very recent threads discussed grip and a very similar serve problem.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=493071
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=483360&highlight=grip+strong+continental
Do you have a clear picture of the continental grip, where to place two points on the hand, and are sure that yours is continental?
5) Basically, I don't believe that there is very much pre-stretch of the internal shoulder rotators. Your basic technique is not what is being used in all current high level serves.

Impact. Later video, last?

1) Feet on ground, little or no leg thrust.
2) Upper arm looks more or less aligned as Ellenbecker recommends as far as I can tell from this camera angle.
3) The camera is not looking along the trajectory of the ball so I'm a little uncertain of some angles. Side view perpendicular to trajectory is good too.
4) Overall body looks straight up. Compare to picture below.
5) Looks better than your arm out to the side as at impact in earlier videos.

View from side of a high level serve. Body not so upright as yours. Look at the angle between the thigh and trunk. He has an angle and you are straight. His feet are off the ground at impact. It may vary.

What is your frame rate?

There seems to be ISR or pronation, but only after the impact in the follow through. It looks like deliberate active muscle shortening for the arm rotation after impact - I'm very uncertain on the "active" part - and not arm rotation from fast pre-stretched muscles. I'm sure there is probably also pronation in the follow through.

There is some discussion on what serve should be learned by players at various levels. I more or less simply view the high level serves and point out differences. I believe that everyone can benefit from the biomechanics used in high level serves. Obviously, there are individual circumstances that limit what we can or should do. Since the serve is the whole service motion, once an early difference - assumed a flaw - appears, correcting any motion after that first flaw will be a problem. For example, if there is no ISR muscle pre-stretching to power the arm rotation, changing something later to look right won't be effective. The correct grip is first priority. Teaching the serve is a tough job, I'm glad that some people can do it.

Suggest that you at least ask your instructor to provide you with a high speed video link of the serve that he is aiming at as a goal.

 

[arche3]

He doesnt need video. Or isr. He needs to learn how to throw a ball.

 

[Ballinbob]

He doesnt need video. Or isr. He needs to learn how to throw a ball.

I was just going to say that. I think he should do what I'm doing- Ditch the serving and learn how to throw a football. It would do the OP a world of good.

 

[Chas Tennis]

He doesnt need video. Or isr. He needs to learn how to throw a ball.

It would help if we had a high speed video of someone properly throwing a ball, a racket or other object.

 

[Dimcorner]

It would help if we had a high speed video of someone properly throwing a ball, a racket or other object.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngel-VlrgAk

Drew Brees slow motion throw. Very nice video.

 

[Topspin Shot]

Sir, can you post a video of yourself throwing a ball? Your motion looks a little better, but I still see a lot of the elements that I don't know how you haven't hurt your shoulder with yet.

 

[Chas Tennis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngel-VlrgAk

Drew Brees slow motion throw. Very nice video.

That video is perfect.

It is very similar to the heart of the serve ISR. There is one very clear exception - the forearm has to be at an angle (varies during the motion) to the upper arm as it rotates so that ISR produces hand speed.

For the serve the racket has to be held at an angle to the arm (varies a lot during the motion) so that ISR produces racket head speed.

If the person does not properly use ISR in their throwing they must learn to throw first. What is the % of men and women* who throw properly? After ISR is working for the throw they must add extending the elbow prior to using the ISR.

Knowledgeable instructors, coaches and tennis bio-mechanists widely say that throwing has value for learning the serve.

*Anybody who tries throwing for serve instruction have a comment on girl's throwing?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...fc8bc8-dc09-11e1-9974-5c975ae4810f_story.html

 

[Dimcorner]

That video is perfect.

It is very similar to the heart of the serve ISR. There is one very clear exception - the forearm has to be at an angle (varies during the motion) to the upper arm as it rotates so that ISR produces hand speed.

For the serve the racket has to be held at an angle to the arm (varies a lot during the motion) so that ISR produces racket head speed.

If the person does not properly use ISR in their throwing they must learn to throw first. What is the % of men and women* who throw properly? After ISR is working for the throw they must add extending the elbow prior to using the ISR.

Knowledgeable instructors, coaches and tennis bio-mechanists widely say that throwing has value for learning the serve.

*Anybody who tries throwing for serve instruction have a comment on girl's throwing?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...fc8bc8-dc09-11e1-9974-5c975ae4810f_story.html

I like the video and I agree that tennis serve is slightly different. In football your elbow doesn't have to move much above shoulder level where in tennis and badminton you have to get that elbow up. I do think the football throwing motion will help because it helps time the legs, torso rotation, and release correctly (if done right). Baseball throwing helps with the legs and rotation, but the wrist release is different since you throw with underspin.

I know adults that throw like girls and I haven't met one yet that got it fixed and has a smooth throwing/serving/smashing motion.

 

[shindemac]

I like the video and I agree that tennis serve is slightly different. In football your elbow doesn't have to move much above shoulder level where in tennis and badminton you have to get that elbow up. I do think the football throwing motion will help because it helps time the legs, torso rotation, and release correctly (if done right). Baseball throwing helps with the legs and rotation, but the wrist release is different since you throw with underspin.

I know adults that throw like girls and I haven't met one yet that got it fixed and has a smooth throwing/serving/smashing motion.

My advice is still the same. Start over. Learn to throw first. Trying to fix a bad motion that is ingrained in muscle memory is a lot of work.

 

[Avles]

I'd be interested to hear what your online coach's comments and recommendations were, and how they compare to what you've heard in the forum.

 

[baowow]

Look up Fuzzy Yellow Ball serve progression videos. Will Hamilton does a good job explaining and break down the serve in easy to learn steps. I think you will find it helpful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QLLwCrQKLI

 

[Sir Shankalot]

I'd be interested to hear what your online coach's comments and recommendations were, and how they compare to what you've heard in the forum.

Great question.

Basically, after reviewing my early videos and chatting it through on Skype, he identified my number 1 issue: my habit of overpronating after I contact the ball, which if I keep doing it will eventually lead to shoulder and / or wrist injury. Basically, when I serve my habit is to have my palm facing the sky on the early stage of follow through, and this is BAD. This aligns very well with a lot of other comment here... others have called it slapping the ball, stuff about isr timing etc, but basically it is the same issue. Incidentally, he said that in all his years of teaching tennis to rec players he had never come across that problem before - usually rec players have the opposite problem

What he told me was to make sure I fix the overpronation / wrist issue before we work on anything else, and that it would take a long time to get over this habit. To work on this, he has had me doing lots of shadow swings starting from a relaxed trophy pose (ie Jay Berger style), and after 5 - 10 shadow swings toss the ball up and try and hit it with the same relaxed motion. Once I have done that, move on to full swings: again, 5 - 10 shadow swings and then introduce the ball and hit it.

Here is an short clip from a video of me working on these drills. You can see I am trying to do everything nice and slow.

What I am discovering is that it is very hard to un-learn a bad habit such as mine, and that doing so requires a lot of patience and hours. My main challenge is not getting frustrated. Where I am at right now is that my shadow swings (both full and half) are OK as far as the wrist thing is concerned, when I hit a real ball from the Jay Berger half-serve position it is not too bad, but when I do the full swing my habit often comes back. Basically it is a matter of keeping at it until the habit disappears for good, and this might take a few more weeks.

On the other things (stance, leg drive, shoulder turn, ISR etc) he explicitly told me NOT to work on or worry about these things until such time as I have completely resolved the wrist / overpronation thing and have expunged the problem from my muscle memory. Interestingly he did not think that ball-throwing or sock drills would do much good at this stage but these would come into play later once I have kicked my bad habit! I am sure many will disagree with this but I have decided to follow the coaches approach and give it some time.

 

[arche3]

The coach advice is legit. It will take you at the least a full year. Shadow swing every day.

If you get this sorted out and you did a montage video of before and after and let the coach use it for a serve course advert he would get mad business.

 

[shindemac]

The coach advice is legit. It will take you at the least a full year. Shadow swing every day.

If you get this sorted out and you did a montage video of before and after and let the coach use it for a serve course advert he would get mad business.

You need to create new muscle memory. More you practice, the better. Your still doing old habits.

 

[Ballinbob]

Ask your coach what he thinks of throwing a football/baseball in order to help your serve. Developing a good throwing motion would help you a lot IMO

 

[Sir Shankalot]

The coach advice is legit. It will take you at the least a full year. Shadow swing every day.

If you get this sorted out and you did a montage video of before and after and let the coach use it for a serve course advert he would get mad business.

Not sure about the full year thing... but yes, it will take a long time. I have been at it with this guy for a month now (shadow swinging and hitting each day, progress video once a week). FWIW he thinks we are talking another 1 to 2 months before I have this crucial aspect of the serve ironed out. Basically when I started I did the wrist thing on 100% of my serves. Now, at least when I am doing the abbreviated motion, we are at the stage where a few (20%?) are pretty good, most (60%?) are OK, and the rest (20%) are bad. When I do the full motion it is still like 70% bad, 30% OK / Good. So I am by no means anywhere near there yet, but progress is being made. The thing he keeps trying to drum into me is that the surest way to slow down or reverse this progress is to by trying to focus on other aspects of my serve such as leg drive etc before I have gotten this one thing right.

As you can see from my latest vid I am not yet a good candidate for a before and after montage but if in a few months time he asks my permission to do this then I will most certainly say yes!

 

[arche3]

Not sure about the full year thing... but yes, it will take a long time. I have been at it with this guy for a month now (shadow swinging and hitting each day, progress video once a week). FWIW he thinks we are talking another 1 to 2 months before I have this crucial aspect of the serve ironed out. Basically when I started I did the wrist thing on 100% of my serves. Now, at least when I am doing the abbreviated motion, we are at the stage where a few (20%?) are pretty good, most (60%?) are OK, and the rest (20%) are bad. When I do the full motion it is still like 70% bad, 30% OK / Good. So I am by no means anywhere near there yet, but progress is being made. The thing he keeps trying to drum into me is that the surest way to slow down or reverse this progress is to by trying to focus on other aspects of my serve such as leg drive etc before I have gotten this one thing right.

As you can see from my latest vid I am not yet a good candidate for a before and after montage but if in a few months time he asks my permission to do this then I will most certainly say yes!

Yeah a long time. Thats my professional ttw opinion. Gleamed from 5 years of ttw coaching newbs.
But you might take less time as your a beginner and the bad motion might be less ingrained. But then again you can't throw a ball so you actually are battling the serve hitch and learning proper throwing mechanics. So yeah. Around a year. Definitely not a few months. Seems like the coach knows his stuff.

But the montage would be epic ttw video. Please do it when it is sorted. It will be great really.

 

[Sir Shankalot]

Ask your coach what he thinks of throwing a football/baseball in order to help your serve. Developing a good throwing motion would help you a lot IMO

If I remember right I did ask him this when we had our first skype call and video review. He basically said that he would prefer that I worked on eliminating the big flaw in my motion first by doing the drills I am doing, and that we might work on throwing old racquets and footballs around later, once I have got the overpronation nailed.

His approach is to work on A and get it perfect, before moving on to B and then to C once B is perfect. In one of his video courses he talks a lot about the benefits of throwing practice and also the sock drill, but for me he reckons that this comes later.

Right now I'm sticking to the programme!

 

[Ballinbob]

Okay cool. Looks like your coach knows his stuff. Keep us posted on your progress and good luck man

 

[Sir Shankalot]

Okay cool. Looks like your coach knows his stuff. Keep us posted on your progress and good luck man

Thanks. Yes, he does know his stuff... as I said upthread I'm not going to name him because I have not asked him, but he is very well known in the online tennis world. Super nice of him to make some time to help me out.

I'll keep posting the occasional video on here every month or so as a kind of public record of my progress. Just as a kind of reality check!

 

[tennis_ocd]

Basically, after reviewing my early videos and chatting it through on Skype, he identified my number 1 issue: my habit of overpronating after I contact the ball, which if I keep doing it will eventually lead to shoulder and / or wrist injury. Basically, when I serve my habit is to have my palm facing the sky on the early stage of follow through, and this is BAD.

I think he nailed it. You do it at the very end of your latest video.
I wish I could pronate so strongly... kinda wonder how you are able to do it. I think most hit (or strive to hit) with wrist directly over heavily tilted shoulders in somewhat a straight line. I slowed down the last couple of seconds and it looks as though your forearm/wrist is significantly out in front with the wrist laid back.... almost the mental picture we get of a girl throwing a ball for the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgwAywJlo1M

I'd love to see the progression of correcting. Likely to take quite a bit; hopefully that ah ha moment comes quickly.

 

[JackB1]

Thanks. Yes, he does know his stuff... as I said upthread I'm not going to name him because I have not asked him, but he is very well known in the online tennis world. Super nice of him to make some time to help me out.

I'll keep posting the occasional video on here every month or so as a kind of public record of my progress. Just as a kind of reality check!

I would suggest the drill where you try and hit the ball with the leading edge of the racquet. This will stop the over pronating. Once you get that leading edge going into contact, you can add in some pronating to hit the ball.

 

[Chas Tennis]

..........................................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgwAywJlo1M

Whoops! New analysis.

I just looked again and she does have pre stretch. Maybe too much. It moves her arm faster then she anticipates and with a late release the ball goes into the ground.

 

[Sir Shankalot]

I think he nailed it. You do it at the very end of your latest video.
I wish I could pronate so strongly... kinda wonder how you are able to do it. I think most hit (or strive to hit) with wrist directly over heavily tilted shoulders in somewhat a straight line. I slowed down the last couple of seconds and it looks as though your forearm/wrist is significantly out in front with the wrist laid back.... almost the mental picture we get of a girl throwing a ball for the first time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgwAywJlo1M



I'd love to see the progression of correcting. Likely to take quite a bit; hopefully that ah ha moment comes quickly.

Well I accept your mental picture - but she is a lot prettier than me! As for the huge pronation, when I went to see a physio a couple of years back for an elbow injury, I remember her commenting about my unusual level of shoulder and wrist flexibility.

I would suggest the drill where you try and hit the ball with the leading edge of the racquet. This will stop the over pronating. Once you get that leading edge going into contact, you can add in some pronating to hit the ball.

You may well be right but for now I am going to stick with the programme!