Pretty cool links about ATP vs WTA forehand

[FiReFTW]

I found this read pretty interesting, maybe people here will like it too.

Of course you could make argumens for some of these things but I think in general its well written and researched.

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-1-power-and-topspin-generation/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-2-is-one-forehand-easier-to-time/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-3-a-closer-look-at-the-womens-forehands/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-4-choosing-forehand/

Its very cool, I highly recommend reading all 4 parts if your interested.

But here are the short summaries:

Series Summary
Force and topspin production in the ATP and WTA forehands

• ATP forehand produces more force by shortening the time between stretching and shortening of the internal rotation muscles of the shoulder and the extensor muscles in the forearm.
• ATP forehand produces more topspin by naturally tilting the racquet further forward at contact.

Timing

Arguments for why the ATP forehand might be easier to time:

• Forearm pronation at contact happens more automatically in the ATP forehand while it requires active manipulation of the forearm muscles in the WTA forehand.
• Delayed, faster, shorter swing allows player to understand the incoming ball path better before committing to the swing, helping him/her adjust to bad bounces and judgements.

Arguments for why the WTA forehand might be easier to time:

• Fewer moving parts in the WTA forehand mean fewer parts to coordinate.
• Longer window of suitable racquet position in the WTA forehand compared to ATP forehand.

Why don’t women on tour use the ATP forehand?

This could be due to a mix of biology (lack of strength, perhaps more difficulty with timing) and the strategy of the women’s game right now, which is to hit flat, powerful shots.

But is it even true that women on tour hit WTA forehands?

I think there are actually 3 categories of forehands. There are a lot of women not hitting WTA forehands. Maybe there will always be a range of forehands in the women’s game, or maybe their forehands are evolving away from the traditional WTA stroke.

Is one is better for recreational players?

If biology isn’t a factor (i.e. if plenty of power can be produced), I think the ATP forehand has a slight edge.

But I also think that the fundamentals of the forehand, which are mostly common to both forehands, are more important than the differences between the two. Also, the effect of your mechanics in any forehand outweigh the style of forehand you’re hitting on your results.

I think that recreational players should develop proper mechanics in any of the strokes. Regardless of which one you hit, solid fundamentals will produce an excellent shot at any level.

 

[mad dog1]

...recreational players should develop proper mechanics in any of the strokes. Regardless of which one you hit, solid fundamentals will produce an excellent shot at any level.

This...

 

[ChaelAZ]

Folks can also look at the archives of TTW as a ton of that information has been discussed, supported, and refuted over the years. But yeah, for rec players it is more important to move better to get in position, and timing whatever swing you have consistently.

 

[hurworld]

Agreed, good read. Someone please tell her about 2HFH too, just to throw a spanner in the works.

 

[user92626]

I think that recreational players should develop proper mechanics in any of the strokes. Regardless of which one you hit, solid fundamentals will produce an excellent shot at any level.

For recreational levels

 

[FiReFTW]

For recreational levels:

-there's really no such thing as "proper mechanics". But, there are sound/productive strokes relevant to specific levels. For example, you can bunt the ball well into the court by some weird strokes that only you have and rule your 3.0 level.


-it's extremely difficult if not impossible to define what is fundamental or not. This is inherent to the point above. You can skip a lot of the "fundamentals" - most 4.0's or whatever are usually missing a bunch -- and still produce excellent shots/results [within their particular level which is all that matters anyway].



Recreational tennis is unique in that it is forever played within an artificially constructed segment. Most rec players aren't interested nor capable of moving out of their segments. At best, they could move up 1 or 2 levels and stall and then decline the rest of their life. So in effect they only need to find the right combos of what they can do to become the best player [in their segment].

Some of you might say -- but I still want to learn better/more fundamentals so I can move up. Sure, but if (big IF) you succeed, the next level is still an artificial segment. Same rules apply.

Gosh you have some weird views in many threads lately, your logic is flawless..

You say x players should be content enough to do x which allows them to compete at their current level, even if its waaaaay bellow optimal, which for me is pretty damn weird.

The better fundamentals, the better technique, the better footwork...etc the better you will be or the bigger your ceiling and potential you have in the future.

So the only logical thing is that someone (no matter what sport or area of life) should strive to improve every aspect to the best and most efficient thing possible in order to maximize and reach his or her maximum level and always strive to improve.

Unless they are just content at doing that thing they are doing at whatever level they are doing it.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Gosh you have some weird views in many threads lately, your logic is flawless..

You say x players should be content enough to do x which allows them to compete at their current level, even if its waaaaay bellow optimal, which for me is pretty damn weird.

The better fundamentals, the better technique, the better footwork...etc the better you will be or the bigger your ceiling and potential you have in the future.

So the only logical thing is that someone (no matter what sport or area of life) should strive to improve every aspect to the best and most efficient thing possible in order to maximize and reach his or her maximum level and always strive to improve.

Unless they are just content at doing that thing they are doing at whatever level they are doing it.

It is not so easy to learn form, is what he is saying. And not that one should not try to learn but just be aware of what you're getting into. The biggest challenge is actually maintaining whatever form you do have on the move, when pressed. Thankfully, the coach I have now does work on that but the ones I have had previously didn't really emphasise it.

 

[user92626]

Fire,

k

 

[Dragy]

Fire,

Relax, I was offering more perspectives for you and others to consider.

While what you said appears nice and logical, it's really not practical and I don't see it happening in reality (the reality of rec tennis).

"I think that recreational players should develop proper mechanics in any of the strokes" <-- at best it might just be a harmless waste of time (most likely case); at worst it might cost people time, $$$, headache, frustration and failure. (probably rarer).

Why? Let's start by defining "proper mechanics" as the stuff that pro's do, right? (We can't argue anything without some definitive meaning). Pros are the pinnacle of the techniques. So, to learn and do this kind of stuff, you must at least put in similar investments that pro's do. That's very costly for average folks, and average folks are no pro's. Who has the time and the fitness and the coaching? Your chance of success with your pursuit (develop the proper mechanics) is about the same as a snail crossing the freeway successfully in one piece!

A better statement that would make more sense is "I think that rec players should always try to develop better strokes than the ones they currently have" Ie always try to be better.

Proper mechanics is not exactly what this or that pro does. It's built from basics, put together into effective form and polished further with personal style. And it's absolutely recommended for every player to get those basics down. Because most effective mechanics is not what allows one to hit pro-like ball, but what ensures best injury safety and longevity while hitting just proper ball for the level. The worst thing for hacks is not loosing matches, not looking unpleasant, but being exposed to tear and wear much more, being limited in ability to play long sessions without performance drop and injury risk, or many sessions in a season without muscle and joints overuse.

Sure, proper mechanics, its fundamental part, is a basis for future development. And sure pros have that settled early in their training, which actually allows them to practice so much (together with being fit and keeping all the regiment and recovery routine, obviously).

So the conclusion is straight forward - wanna play long years of tennis? Wanna improve? Wanna stay injury free? Get proper mechanics down and build from there. Lots of rec players getting by with gaps in their mechanics are just bad to be your idols, lol.

 

[StringSnapper]

I found this read pretty interesting, maybe people here will like it too.

Of course you could make argumens for some of these things but I think in general its well written and researched.

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-1-power-and-topspin-generation/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-2-is-one-forehand-easier-to-time/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-3-a-closer-look-at-the-womens-forehands/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-4-choosing-forehand/

Its very cool, I highly recommend reading all 4 parts if your interested.

But here are the short summaries:

Series Summary
Force and topspin production in the ATP and WTA forehands

• ATP forehand produces more force by shortening the time between stretching and shortening of the internal rotation muscles of the shoulder and the extensor muscles in the forearm.
• ATP forehand produces more topspin by naturally tilting the racquet further forward at contact.

Timing

Arguments for why the ATP forehand might be easier to time:

• Forearm pronation at contact happens more automatically in the ATP forehand while it requires active manipulation of the forearm muscles in the WTA forehand.
• Delayed, faster, shorter swing allows player to understand the incoming ball path better before committing to the swing, helping him/her adjust to bad bounces and judgements.

Arguments for why the WTA forehand might be easier to time:

• Fewer moving parts in the WTA forehand mean fewer parts to coordinate.
• Longer window of suitable racquet position in the WTA forehand compared to ATP forehand.

Why don’t women on tour use the ATP forehand?

This could be due to a mix of biology (lack of strength, perhaps more difficulty with timing) and the strategy of the women’s game right now, which is to hit flat, powerful shots.

But is it even true that women on tour hit WTA forehands?

I think there are actually 3 categories of forehands. There are a lot of women not hitting WTA forehands. Maybe there will always be a range of forehands in the women’s game, or maybe their forehands are evolving away from the traditional WTA stroke.

Is one is better for recreational players?

If biology isn’t a factor (i.e. if plenty of power can be produced), I think the ATP forehand has a slight edge.

But I also think that the fundamentals of the forehand, which are mostly common to both forehands, are more important than the differences between the two. Also, the effect of your mechanics in any forehand outweigh the style of forehand you’re hitting on your results.

I think that recreational players should develop proper mechanics in any of the strokes. Regardless of which one you hit, solid fundamentals will produce an excellent shot at any level.

Dont forget the SCW (slice chicken wing) forehand

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Proper mechanics is not exactly what this or that pro does. It's built from basics, put together into effective form and polished further with personal style. And it's absolutely recommended for every player to get those basics down. Because most effective mechanics is not what allows one hit pro-like ball, but what ensures best injury safety and longevity while hitting just proper ball for the level. The worst thing for hacks is not loosing matches, not looking unpleasant, but being exposed to tear and wear much more, being limited in ability to play long sessions without performance drop and injury risk, or many sessions in a season without muscle and joints overuse.

Sure, proper mechanics, its fundamental part, is a basis for future development. And sure pros have that settled early in their training, which actually allows them practice so much (together with being fit and keeping all the regiment and recovery routine, obviously).

So the conclusion is straight forward - wanna play long years of tennis? Wanna improve? Wanna stay injury free? Get proper mechanics down and build from there. Lots of rec players getting by with gaps in their mechanics are just bad to be your idols, lol.

While I agree with this, it's not like everything that is neither ATP nor WTA forehand is improper mechanics either. And that is what some recs want to chase. Which is fine but be sure what that entails.

 

[user92626]

Proper mechanics is not exactly what this or that pro does. It's built from basics, put together into effective form and polished further with personal style. And it's absolutely recommended for every player to get those basics down. Because most effective mechanics is not what allows one hit pro-like ball, but what ensures best injury safety and longevity while hitting just proper ball for the level. The worst thing for hacks is not loosing matches, not looking unpleasant, but being exposed to tear and wear much more, being limited in ability to play long sessions without performance drop and injury risk, or many sessions in a season without muscle and joints overuse.

Sure, proper mechanics, its fundamental part, is a basis for future development. And sure pros have that settled early in their training, which actually allows them practice so much (together with being fit and keeping all the regiment and recovery routine, obviously).

So the conclusion is straight forward - wanna play long years of tennis? Wanna improve? Wanna stay injury free? Get proper mechanics down and build from there. Lots of rec players getting by with gaps in their mechanics are just bad to be your idols, lol.

In your definition, a proper form for my 65 years old friend's FH is bunting, tapping the ball over with mostly the forearm. It works very effectively and safely for his 3.0 level.


But wasn't that what I suggested in post #5? Except, I used a better term (sound/productive for the level) than "proper". "Proper" implies some sort of definitive form!

 

[Dragy]

In your definition, a proper form for my 65 years old friend's FH is bunting, tapping the ball over with mostly the forearm. It works very effectively and safely for his 3.0 level.


But wasn't that what I suggested in post #5? Except, I used a better term (sound/productive for the level) than "proper". "Proper" implies some sort of definitive form!

No, a proper form for a 65 y.o. friend (if he is ok generally being and moving on the court and his heart rate stays in proper and safe range) is using gentle weight transfer and mild core rotation to power his strokes rather than arm exposing his shoulder muscles to stress. Well, that's if he does it from the baseline. Mini-tennis can be done all-arm injury free.

 

[FiReFTW]

@user92626 do you know what fundamentals mean?

They mean using your body, split step, unit turn thats fast enough, keeping ur eyes on the ball etc etc

Your post came across as, hey this guy/girl whatever is using only arm and completely arming the ball, but works at the level that the person plays atm (3.0 or whatever), so why waste teaching how get ur body involved.

Does that make any sense to you?

Also you say rec tennis alot and also seem to be quite downplaying it and almost mocking it.

Whats your definition of rec tennis anyway?

A lowly rec player who goes out to hit 2 times a week is a rec player.

A 4.5ntrp player with alot of experience, mileage and playing tournaments and playing tennis a ton is a rec player.

An ex futures player or d1 player that doesnt compete there anymore but still plays matches and sometimes open tourneys thats like a 5.5ntrp levelish is a rec player.

Someone whos goal is just to hit and play sometimes here and there is a rec player.

Someone whos commited 100% passionate and is putting a ton of time and effort into tennis and has coaching and strives to improve and keep growing is a rec player.

There are many different rec players, you seem to be throwing them all in the same basket but there are a ton of difference from player to player even if you call them all rec players.

Everyone apart from atp and wta tour is essentially a rec player.

 

[user92626]

yehh

 

[user92626]

No, a proper form for a 65 y.o. friend (if he is ok generally being and moving on the court and his heart rate stays in proper and safe range) is using gentle weight transfer and mild core rotation to power his strokes rather than arm exposing his shoulder muscles to stress. Well, that's if he does it from the baseline. Mini-tennis can be done all-arm injury free.

Nah, your definition or understanding of "a proper form" is lousy and faulty in the first place.

Some 65 y.o men can't do "gentle weight transfer" or "core rotation" for whatever reasons. You simply don't know. However, they do have a form that's effective for them, according to them. This said form might be irrelevant and different to whatever you call "proper" or you have ever seen. Again, it's still effective [for them, according to them]. That's my point.

 

[Dragy]

Nah, your definition or understanding of "a proper form" is lousy and faulty in the first place.

Some 65 y.o men can't do "gentle weight transfer" or "core rotation" for whatever reasons. You simply don't know. However, they do have a form that's effective for them, according to them. This said form might be irrelevant and different to whatever you call "proper" or you have ever seen. Again, it's still effective [for them, according to them]. That's my point.

My understanding of proper form is my personal opinion and approach to things in tennis, while you may feel free to call whatever words.

I have a 69 y.o. guy among my partners. Survived microstroke half-year ago. He has fundamentals down, moves around the court, hits dependable shots and serves and will give trouble to 4.0 players. My father is 62. He's just as good as some 4.0 I've seen here on video, though with no shiny techniques. I know what seniors are capable of if they keep their health. Now ones whoes arms are done with tennis are not effective, cause they cannot bunt any more after half an hour, they cannot wield anything but game improver, which may further hurt their arms.

Props to the 65 y.o. you refer to for visiting courts and playing and being effective. It's just that he could be better if he had better fundamentals, given he's able to move and strike the ball, which means he kept some athletic ability so far. Now I'm not claiming he must rework his strokes now - it's all up to him at this life stage, but if he considered this fun, I would be supportive and encouraging.

 

[Dragy]

I found this read pretty interesting, maybe people here will like it too.

Of course you could make argumens for some of these things but I think in general its well written and researched.

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-1-power-and-topspin-generation/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-2-is-one-forehand-easier-to-time/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-3-a-closer-look-at-the-womens-forehands/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-4-choosing-forehand/

Its very cool, I highly recommend reading all 4 parts if your interested.

But here are the short summaries:

Series Summary
Force and topspin production in the ATP and WTA forehands

• ATP forehand produces more force by shortening the time between stretching and shortening of the internal rotation muscles of the shoulder and the extensor muscles in the forearm.
• ATP forehand produces more topspin by naturally tilting the racquet further forward at contact.

Timing

Arguments for why the ATP forehand might be easier to time:

• Forearm pronation at contact happens more automatically in the ATP forehand while it requires active manipulation of the forearm muscles in the WTA forehand.
• Delayed, faster, shorter swing allows player to understand the incoming ball path better before committing to the swing, helping him/her adjust to bad bounces and judgements.

Arguments for why the WTA forehand might be easier to time:

• Fewer moving parts in the WTA forehand mean fewer parts to coordinate.
• Longer window of suitable racquet position in the WTA forehand compared to ATP forehand.

Why don’t women on tour use the ATP forehand?

This could be due to a mix of biology (lack of strength, perhaps more difficulty with timing) and the strategy of the women’s game right now, which is to hit flat, powerful shots.

But is it even true that women on tour hit WTA forehands?

I think there are actually 3 categories of forehands. There are a lot of women not hitting WTA forehands. Maybe there will always be a range of forehands in the women’s game, or maybe their forehands are evolving away from the traditional WTA stroke.

Is one is better for recreational players?

If biology isn’t a factor (i.e. if plenty of power can be produced), I think the ATP forehand has a slight edge.

But I also think that the fundamentals of the forehand, which are mostly common to both forehands, are more important than the differences between the two. Also, the effect of your mechanics in any forehand outweigh the style of forehand you’re hitting on your results.

I think that recreational players should develop proper mechanics in any of the strokes. Regardless of which one you hit, solid fundamentals will produce an excellent shot at any level.

I cannot hold this within myself)
I like the way she approached the issue, and I think it's very useful for such type of personality to put her analysis and conclusions into words, as this is the way to also get complete picture in one's own head. Actually, it's the main reason I post here - helps me test my understanding, get new points of view and consolidate what passes through long discussions without being busted to my mind.

In the meantime, I'd say the whole thing is not complete or precise, which may be ok (take what you like) or harmful to some. I won't even touch pronation story, although I'm an ISR cleric ready to fight till death whenever my Deity is under risk

I believe compact/on the hitting side of the body backswing is not single determining feature of ATP-fh. It's a part of sequence for "later commitment" and short-ranged power generation, but one can have compact takeback and suffer with no power. Well, that's possibly what she claimes happens to her strokes. In the same time, you see guys like Fognini producing power with with very short range of motions, or Roger looking so smooth and casual launching those missiles. So I'd never stop showing these pictures marking the proper posture and strong linkage for torso rotation power transfer to arm:

This posture happens briefly in the forward swing as major acceleration takes place and ends as torso slows down significantly facing the target and lets arm propel forward into contact. Serena doesn't do it. She's more compact on takeback than she used to be? True for her and many other ladies. But extremely short RHS generation ATP players achieve in their FHs is missing.

 

[FiReFTW]

Fireftw,

It's funny and ironic that you accused me of throwing all the players in the same "rec players" basket, but you actually defined all the different players, "everyone" apart from atp, wta as a rec player.

(raising eyebrows) So, ...why ...are ...you ...even saying that I seem to be throwing them all in the same basket, when they are in the same basket as you said???




But that's it. You got it. "Everyone apart from atp and wta tour is essentially a rec player" generally is my definition as well, if you ask me. This is neither downplaying, mocking nor praising the group. It is what it is!

Ok gotcha.

So everyone apart from ATP and WTA players should forget about leaening fundamentals such as split step,watching the ball, body weight transfer, kinetic chain, good balance, athletic posture...
And forget about learning proper mechanics and technique to hit a fh, bh, volleys, serve, oveehead...

Its useless and a waste of time,they should just play how they play and cotinue that.


I seriously hope you never teach or coach a single person tennis in your life, because i feel sorry for them wasting money.

 

[heninfan99]

 

[user92626]

My understanding of proper form is my personal opinion and approach to things in tennis, ...
.

You know, you've been saying things that are more aligned and agreeable with me (my point) than you actually realize. (for that you deserve a like!! )

Proper form is a personal opinion and an individual's approach to tennis ...is exactly my point from the beginning. In other words, there's really no such thing as one universal proper from (and I don't even mean absolute universal). There are as many forms as there are players.

When someone like FireT advised that "players should develop proper form", it's as good as telling people to just develop your own things better.

 

[user92626]

Ok gotcha.

So everyone apart from ATP and WTA players should forget about leaening fundamentals such as split step,watching the ball, body weight transfer, kinetic chain, good balance, athletic posture...
And forget about learning proper mechanics and technique to hit a fh, bh, volleys, serve, oveehead...

Its useless and a waste of time,they should just play how they play and cotinue that.


I seriously hope you never teach or coach a single person tennis in your life, because i feel sorry for them wasting money.

It's not that people should forget about "the fundamentals", it is that the fundamentals aren't clearly defined or understood when it comes to segmented recreational levels.

In other words, what seems fundamental for 4.5 level is not necessarily fundamental for 3.5.

You spoke on generality, but I just delve further in the discussion. That's all.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Looks like all of these armless FHs actually use more arm than McEnroe. All that fancy upper arm rolling and forearm rolling is "more arm not less" than McEnroe's fh. hehehe

@mad dog1 ... you are "forearming" your fh.


FOREARM MUSCLES
Another group of muscles that add force to the forehand are muscles in the forearm.

As I understand it, in a traditional continental grip forehand, there isn’t much contribution from the forearm muscles. The hitting arm hinges at the shoulder and moves mostly as a unit through contact and after. In this case, most of the force comes from the internal rotation of the RC muscles. See this video to see this stroke.

The modern forehands – both ATP and WTA – involve the following two actions during the swing:

1. The wrist lag and supination of the forearm (stretching of the forearm extensor and pronator muscles), followed by,
2. Pronation of the forearm and flexion of the hand at the wrist (shortening of the pronator and extensor muscles).

 

[Dragy]

How good he actually was to put this all that way in 2013. And we still have people claiming forearm to be a power source in 2018.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I cannot hold this within myself)
I like the way she approached the issue, and I think it's very useful for such type of personality to put her analysis and conclusions into words, as this is the way to also get complete picture in one's own head. Actually, it's the main reason I post here - helps me test my understanding, get new points of view and consolidate what passes through long discussions without being busted to my mind.

In the meantime, I'd say the whole thing is not complete or precise, which may be ok (take what you like) or harmful to some. I won't even touch pronation story, although I'm an ISR cleric ready to fight till death whenever my Deity is under risk

I believe compact/on the hitting side of the body backswing is not single determining feature of ATP-fh. It's a part of sequence for "later commitment" and short-ranged power generation, but one can have compact takeback and suffer with no power. Well, that's possibly what she claimes happens to her strokes. In the same time, you see guys like Fognini producing power with with very short range of motions, or Roger looking so smooth and casual launching those missiles. So I'd never stop showing these pictures marking the proper posture and strong linkage for torso rotation power transfer to arm:

This posture happens briefly in the forward swing as major acceleration takes place and ends as torso slows down significantly facing the target and lets arm propel forward into contact. Serena doesn't do it. She's more compact on takeback than she used to be? True for her and many other ladies. But extremely short RHS generation ATP players achieve in their FHs is missing.

"I like the way she approached the issue, and I think it's very useful for such type of personality to put her analysis and conclusions into words, as this is the way to also get complete picture in one's own head. Actually, it's the main reason I post here - helps me test my understanding, get new points of view and consolidate what passes through long discussions without being busted to my mind."

Agreed ... wish there was another ttw forum called something like "technical discussion/inquiry" where "being wrong" was expected.

Or maybe call it "Bad tips and bad instruction" ... lower user expectations.

 

[ByeByePoly]

How good he actually was to put this all that way in 2013. And we still have people claiming forearm to be a power source in 2018.

Uh oh ... here I go being wrong again.

Definitely the forearm is a power source in ATP FH, imo. Do you not agree with the "throwing" analogy members like Pete Player use? All throwing motions have pronation which is forearm effort/power. If I hold my racquet in trophy position and shadow serve, forearm effort to pronate. If I throw a baseball or football, forearm pronation.

I think it was Limpin that said the amount of esr/isr vs supination/pronation varied per player. That makes since to me, particularly with different grips. With my eastern, I can hold my right elbow against my side with my left hand, and supinate/pronate freely with no arm roll at shoulder joint. I don't get grips like Sock ... but just trying same shadow swing exercise above ... seems to need upper arm roll more. Not sure ... freak show.

Also ... I think Yandell has said it's almost all upper arm roll (esr/isr).

Watch Fed @00:10 here ... looks most/all forearm supination/pronation to me.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I found this read pretty interesting, maybe people here will like it too.

Of course you could make argumens for some of these things but I think in general its well written and researched.

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-1-power-and-topspin-generation/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-2-is-one-forehand-easier-to-time/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-3-a-closer-look-at-the-womens-forehands/

http://adventuresintennis.com/atp-vs-wta-forehand-part-4-choosing-forehand/

Its very cool, I highly recommend reading all 4 parts if your interested.

But here are the short summaries:

Series Summary
Force and topspin production in the ATP and WTA forehands

• ATP forehand produces more force by shortening the time between stretching and shortening of the internal rotation muscles of the shoulder and the extensor muscles in the forearm.
• ATP forehand produces more topspin by naturally tilting the racquet further forward at contact.

Timing

Arguments for why the ATP forehand might be easier to time:

• Forearm pronation at contact happens more automatically in the ATP forehand while it requires active manipulation of the forearm muscles in the WTA forehand.
• Delayed, faster, shorter swing allows player to understand the incoming ball path better before committing to the swing, helping him/her adjust to bad bounces and judgements.

Arguments for why the WTA forehand might be easier to time:

• Fewer moving parts in the WTA forehand mean fewer parts to coordinate.
• Longer window of suitable racquet position in the WTA forehand compared to ATP forehand.

Why don’t women on tour use the ATP forehand?

This could be due to a mix of biology (lack of strength, perhaps more difficulty with timing) and the strategy of the women’s game right now, which is to hit flat, powerful shots.

But is it even true that women on tour hit WTA forehands?

I think there are actually 3 categories of forehands. There are a lot of women not hitting WTA forehands. Maybe there will always be a range of forehands in the women’s game, or maybe their forehands are evolving away from the traditional WTA stroke.

Is one is better for recreational players?

If biology isn’t a factor (i.e. if plenty of power can be produced), I think the ATP forehand has a slight edge.

But I also think that the fundamentals of the forehand, which are mostly common to both forehands, are more important than the differences between the two. Also, the effect of your mechanics in any forehand outweigh the style of forehand you’re hitting on your results.

I think that recreational players should develop proper mechanics in any of the strokes. Regardless of which one you hit, solid fundamentals will produce an excellent shot at any level.

Thx for links ... like the way she is thinking it through.

Base fundamentals for most rec players:

1) don't miss much even on the run
2) hit to their bh

 

[big ted]

if you look at agassi's forehand it has changed from an 'ATP' (as people describe) to a WTA forehand...
somewhere around maybe 2003-4? when his back started giving him issues and he began
hitting flatter shots

 

[FiReFTW]

if you look at agassi's forehand it has changed from an 'ATP' (as people describe) to a WTA forehand...
somewhere around maybe 2003-4? when his back started giving him issues and he began
hitting flatter shots

• Typically, we’re told that there are two distinct forehands – one that most men on tour use, and the other than most women use.
• The 3rd category is an intermediate between the ATP and WTA forehands. The forearm is partway between pronation and supination at the start of forward movement of the racquet and the backswing is much shorter than in the WTA forehand. This is similar to the forehands of Del Potro, Sampras and Agassi.

 

[heninfan99]

 

[Dragy]

Uh oh ... here I go being wrong again.

Definitely the forearm is a power source in ATP FH, imo. Do you not agree with the "throwing" analogy members like Pete Player use? All throwing motions have pronation which is forearm effort/power. If I hold my racquet in trophy position and shadow serve, forearm effort to pronate. If I throw a baseball or football, forearm pronation.

I think it was Limpin that said the amount of esr/isr vs supination/pronation varied per player. That makes since to me, particularly with different grips. With my eastern, I can hold my right elbow against my side with my left hand, and supinate/pronate freely with no arm roll at shoulder joint. I don't get grips like Sock ... but just trying same shadow swing exercise above ... seems to need upper arm roll more. Not sure ... freak show.

Also ... I think Yandell has said it's almost all upper arm roll (esr/isr).

Watch Fed @00:10 here ... looks most/all forearm supination/pronation to me.

Pfff... I thought if I include "major" in front of power source, but decided it's obvious. If you claim pronation happens in some strokes (mostly with milder grips) I agree. It's to control racquet face hitting in front, if active. It's a natural consequence of racquet rotating, if passive. It may be utilized for some sub-optimal shots like on-the-run. But it's straight forward: big muscles to be responsible at least for 80% power generation. Anything else is there for control and fine tuning.

And no, I don't care about throwing analogy here. It works and it doesn't work. Applicable to some cases with some purposes.

 

[RetroSpin]

I think the division into ATP and WTA is too restrictive. That division is based on if you take it back past your body line. Another important aspect is bent elbow or straight elbow. Then there is the question of whether you "pre-lag", ie put the racquet into lag as part of your backswing, or dynamically lag it, ie Fed style. Finally, is the face parallel to the ground when you start forward or is it more open?

Most WTA players pre-lag. They set the angle before they drop the racquet. I would say Agassi did this as well. In fact, pretty much every pre-Fed player did.

It's interesting that the player with arguably the most devastating fh in history, Delpo, doesn't fit neatly into a category.

For rec players, certainly those <5.0, I think the Agassi model is a pretty useful one. It's simple and compact. The full-on WTA style is not worth the added timing issues unless you plan to try to demolish the ball from deep in the court, Madison Keyes style. The Fed technique looks cool if you can pull it off. Many can't and end up looking like wannabes.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Pfff... I thought if I include "major" in front of power source, but decided it's obvious. If you claim pronation happens in some strokes (mostly with milder grips) I agree. It's to control racquet face hitting in front, if active. It's a natural consequence of racquet rotating, if passive. It may be utilized for some sub-optimal shots like on-the-run. But it's straight forward: big muscles to be responsible at least for 80% power generation. Anything else is there for control and fine tuning.

And no, I don't care about throwing analogy here. It works and it doesn't work. Applicable to some cases with some purposes.

Oh ... I thought most here agreed with the throwing analogy ... thought @nytennisaddict did. To me, it seems to fit with the active arm rolling (pronation) you see throwing a baseball, football, or the tennis serve. We will just agree to disagree that the arm rolling isn't a major power source (not just racquet face control). I think it's exactly the late arm rolling that provides the power in the ATP flip which allows the shorter backswing. (the late arm roll and any late release from full extension).

 

[FiReFTW]

Oh ... I thought most here agreed with the throwing analogy ... thought @nytennisaddict did. To me, it seems to fit with the active arm rolling (pronation) you see throwing a baseball, football, or the tennis serve. We will just agree to disagree that the arm rolling isn't a major power source (not just racquet face control). I think it's exactly the late arm rolling that provides the power in the ATP flip which allows the shorter backswing. (the late arm roll and any late release from full extension).

I think he is arguing that pronation is mostly passive, I would agree, apart from some sub-optimal shots or extreme cases where you actively pronate and/or radial deviate like picking up extremely low balls would be one example where you have to actively pronate and radial deviate in order to put enough spin and net clearance into the ball.

But for most shots the most active muscles are mostly from your body, while the shoulders and forearm add rotation but more from the body pulling and stretch-shorten cycle than actual active activation of this rotation of the shoulder and pronation.
As the body uncoils it violently pulls the arm, and with a relaxed loose grip the racquet gets fliped back and the shoulder and forearm muscles get stretched (stretch-shorten cycle) and then they snap like an elastic that gets stretched which cause them to rotate around because the arm gets pulled inside the body (centrifugal force), so its very fluid and very passive, but then you control this rotation depending on what kind of shot ur hitting, but its very effortless, its not forced or actively rotated if that makes sense.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I think he is arguing that pronation is mostly passive, I would agree, apart from some sub-optimal shots or extreme cases where you actively pronate and/or radial deviate like picking up extremely low balls would be one example where you have to actively pronate and radial deviate in order to put enough spin and net clearance into the ball.

But for most shots the most active muscles are mostly from your body, while the shoulders and forearm add rotation but more from the body pulling and stretch-shorten cycle than actual active activation of this rotation of the shoulder and pronation.
As the body uncoils it violently pulls the arm, and with a relaxed loose grip the racquet gets fliped back and the shoulder and forearm muscles get stretched (stretch-shorten cycle) and then they snap like an elastic that gets stretched which cause them to rotate around because the arm gets pulled inside the body (centrifugal force), so its very fluid and very passive, but then you control this rotation depending on what kind of shot ur hitting, but its very effortless, its not forced or actively rotated if that makes sense.

Yes, I understand and disagree that the pronation going into contact is passive. I think it "feels" relaxed because it is active effort added after the arm and racquet already have momentum. But "feels relaxed" is not the same thing as passive. I think the magic of all "throwing" activities happen at the forearm and wrist ... and that magic is not passive. The term "live arm" does not exist to describe a "well slung passive arm" ... it describes a lose well timed active arm.

 

[Dragy]

Yes, I understand and disagree that the pronation going into contact is passive. I think it "feels" relaxed because it is active effort added after the arm and racquet already have momentum. But "feels relaxed" is not the same thing as passive. I think the magic of all "throwing" activities happen at the forearm and wrist ... and that magic is not passive. The term "live arm" does not exist to describe a "well slung passive arm" ... it describes a lose well timed active arm.

It’s reverse. “Momentum” doesn’t give you anything but the feel that your actually very limited acceleration, if any, is big - because you perceive it not when actually exerting effort, but when racquet flips forward, which is as arm changes direction and all the stuff.
If you jump from car to car on a moving train it’s the same effort as jumping on a standing train, add air resistance. If you jump off the moving train, your jump is much faster, but that’s not your leg drive, it’s train speed responsible for difference.

 

[FiReFTW]

Yes, I understand and disagree that the pronation going into contact is passive. I think it "feels" relaxed because it is active effort added after the arm and racquet already have momentum. But "feels relaxed" is not the same thing as passive. I think the magic of all "throwing" activities happen at the forearm and wrist ... and that magic is not passive. The term "live arm" does not exist to describe a "well slung passive arm" ... it describes a lose well timed active arm.

Well, if I stand in my room with my racquet in the "pat the dog" position and have a relaxed grip, and I explode forward with my hips and upper body, the racquet flips down and then rotates around like a windshield wiper and im doing absolutely nothing with my arm, infact its impossible to prevent it from happening unless I actively tighten the grip and force/inhibit this move from happening, it just stretches like elastic and snaps around by its own.

So you can certainly hit balls like this with completely passive pronation and shoulder rotation, now what happens in practice when you actually play is hard to say for sure, if you subconciously add a bit more on ur own or whatever, thats hard to say, but it does feel mostly passive on most shots but on some it feels like you add to it.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Well, if I stand in my room with my racquet in the "pat the dog" position and have a relaxed grip, and I explode forward with my hips and upper body, the racquet flips down and then rotates around like a windshield wiper and im doing absolutely nothing with my arm, infact its impossible to prevent it from happening unless I actively tighten the grip and force/inhibit this move from happening, it just stretches like elastic and snaps around by its own.

So you can certainly hit balls like this with completely passive pronation and shoulder rotation, now what happens in practice when you actually play is hard to say for sure, if you subconciously add a bit more on ur own or whatever, thats hard to say, but it does feel mostly passive on most shots but on some it feels like you add to it.

It’s reverse. “Momentum” doesn’t give you anything but the feel that your actually very limited acceleration, if any, is big - because you perceive it not when actually exerting effort, but when racquet flips forward, which is as arm changes direction and all the stuff.
If you jump from car to car on a moving train it’s the same effort as jumping on a standing train, add air resistance. If you jump off the moving train, your jump is much faster, but that’s not your leg drive, it’s train speed responsible for difference.

I think both of your FHs are looking good ... keep it up and enjoy your tennis.

IMO ... all throwing involves active pronation (and for this post, not making a distinction between pronation and internal arm rotation/roll).

If the ATP fh is a throw, then there is active pronation.

If there is no active pronation in the ATP fh, then I wouldn't use "throwing" as a good analogy.

Draggy ... the point I was trying to make about relaxed feeling late arm effort is the difference between 1) effort to start the arm in motion 2) add to the arm in motion. My 2hbh is a good example. I start the forward swing with right side pull and arm triangle turning together (minimal left arm). After that arm triangle mass has been sent on it's way, and before contact, I make significant left arm effort/addition into contact (I hit with left arm/hand). That left arm effort "feels" much less than my left arm fh drills where the left arm has to do more at the start of the swing.

This is a repeat from an earlier post but is a good example of active pronation:

For @mad dog1 ... who only wants to hear from high level players that coach:

Our head pro (hp) and instructor in this little story from 30ish years ago:

HP played #1 singles at Div 1. He was playing pro qualifying tournaments in Europe in his early 20s. He had an accident with a saw ... severed his index finger completely off .. reattached ... ended pro aspirations ... was still winning local open singles tournaments into his 30s. Head pro ever since early 20s.

One day at indoor drill with hp ... he told all of us to try and hit overheads over the back tarp. Game on ...swinging out of our shoes ... only a couple cleared. He let us do this for a while ... and then had us stop and watch him. He stood near the net, put racquet in trophy position ... and easily hit overhead after overhead over the tarp. His words based on memory ... "you have to snap it ... it's pronation". He was teaching us to actively use pronation for easy pace. That lesson helped my flat serve down the T more than overheads. I didn't need any more overhead pace, but definitely needed more pace on my flat deuce t serve. I think it was the first time my serve probably hit 100+ mph (obviously guessing). To this day ... I have a flat serve to deuce t without exaggerated pronation when accuracy is priority.

Maybe that just applies to serve, and not the ATP fh ... but I don't think so.

Fire ... I thought one of the best parts of Chloe's (sp??) observations in the article you linked was the points of supination in strokes:

McEnroe - never
Sloan - behind back
Federer - during forward swing.

Does Sloan and Fed both get from there to contact with passive pronation? The only one for sure with a passive forearm is Mac.

 

[mad dog1]

@ByeByePoly

I like to hear things directly from the coach rather than from a 3rd party. Rec players have a tendency to apply their own “filters” to coaching instruction.

 

[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly

I like to hear things directly from the coach rather. Rec players have a tendency to apply their own “filters” to coaching instruction.

You don't have to worry about this post filter ... lesson didn't take any longer than 5 minutes, and his taking part consisted of "snap it". It was very rare when he mentioned anything about strokes in drill group, which is all I participated in. The only other "technical advice" I heard in 15 years was "BBP, your toss sucks".

 

[ByeByePoly]

@ByeByePoly

I like to hear things directly from the coach rather than from a 3rd party. Rec players have a tendency to apply their own “filters” to coaching instruction.

Man ... needed you for bh cc drill yesterday. My beginner caught on to the "you really need to work on that inside out fh ploy" ... and proceeded to hit max two in a row 1hbh. I got him to 20 (10 each) once and it felt like winning the lottery. The concept of "cooperative" warm up and drills is met with "let's play".

 

[FiReFTW]

Well whatever theory u want to believe passive active whatever, it feels effortless for sure, extremely relaxed, loose amd effortless.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Oh ... I thought most here agreed with the throwing analogy ... thought @nytennisaddict did. To me, it seems to fit with the active arm rolling (pronation) you see throwing a baseball, football, or the tennis serve. We will just agree to disagree that the arm rolling isn't a major power source (not just racquet face control). I think it's exactly the late arm rolling that provides the power in the ATP flip which allows the shorter backswing. (the late arm roll and any late release from full extension).

i do like the throwing analogy, but it depends on how you're applying it.
alot of times, folks take analogies too far, when in realitity, the analogy was used to describe a segment of the motion.

ie. take the javelin motion analogy in serving... it's great if you're using it to describe the feeling of tilting your shoulder so you can "swing up", but terrible if you're also taking a stride like a javelin thrower.

i do think there is active pronating,... but more to guide the racquet face... it is NOT a major source of power... to me the major source of power is happening from the ground up, legs, hips... but the time the arms come into play, it should mostly focused on getting the racquet to contact, with the correct face angle...
IMO, when i think of someone "arming" the ball (ie. their arm is major source of power), it's obviously an issue with maximizing power generation, but i think it's more of a problem because if the arm is focused on generating power, it's hard to also use the arm to guide the racquet to the contact.

my $0.02

 

[SuperSpinner]

There is no active pronation in throwing.

 

[FiReFTW]

i do like the throwing analogy, but it depends on how you're applying it.
alot of times, folks take analogies too far, when in realitity, the analogy was used to describe a segment of the motion.

ie. take the javelin motion analogy in serving... it's great if you're using it to describe the feeling of tilting your shoulder so you can "swing up", but terrible if you're also taking a stride like a javelin thrower.

i do think there is active pronating,... but more to guide the racquet face... it is NOT a major source of power... to me the major source of power is happening from the ground up, legs, hips... but the time the arms come into play, it should mostly focused on getting the racquet to contact, with the correct face angle...
IMO, when i think of someone "arming" the ball (ie. their arm is major source of power), it's obviously an issue with maximizing power generation, but i think it's more of a problem because if the arm is focused on generating power, it's hard to also use the arm to guide the racquet to the contact.

my $0.02

I think its a good explanation but I wouldnt downplay pronation and shoulder rotation to be just to bring the racquet and angle into contact, I think it adds alot of extra racquet speed but on a vertical plane.
The body, legs, hips mostly add pure power to the ball, while shoulder rotation and pronation adds vertical "power" or in basic terms topspin.

Thats why men with atp fh can have both power and spin or a heavy ball.

While wta fh has either power or spin but not alot of both.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

I think its a good explanation but I wouldnt downplay pronation and shoulder rotation to be just to bring the racquet and angle into contact, I think it adds alot of extra racquet speed but on a vertical plane.
The body, legs, hips mostly add pure power to the ball, while shoulder rotation and pronation adds vertical "power" or in basic terms topspin.

not downplaying anything... but I also can’t attribute exact % of power contribution to various sources.

key point i’m making is that it’s not “major”, but also not 0%

best way to figure it out yourself,... hit lots of balls until you’re tired,... then hit some more... your body does a good job figuring out how to do what you’re asking it, efficiently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ByeByePoly]

There is no active pronation in throwing.

@00:17 below

@02:11 below

 

[FiReFTW]

not downplaying anything... but I also can’t attribute exact % of power contribution to various sources.

key point i’m making is that it’s not “major”, but also not 0%

best way to figure it out yourself,... hit lots of balls until you’re tired,... then hit some more... your body does a good job figuring out how to do what you’re asking it, efficiently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yea my point was just that the body adds mostly power while the rotation and pronation adds mostly vertical/topspin

 

[mad dog1]

not downplaying anything... but I also can’t attribute exact % of power contribution to various sources.

key point i’m making is that it’s not “major”, but also not 0%

best way to figure it out yourself,... hit lots of balls until you’re tired,... then hit some more... your body does a good job figuring out how to do what you’re asking it, efficiently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup. Good post as usual. That’s why i wasn’t going to assign power % to each body part when curious pressed. The goal should be to have the arm provide minimal power. Use the big muscles for power. Practice. Practice. And over time the body will figure it out on its own.

 

[Dragy]

@00:17 below

@02:11 below

All ton of ISR and some pronation in follow-through.

I think both of your FHs are looking good ... keep it up and enjoy your tennis.

IMO ... all throwing involves active pronation (and for this post, not making a distinction between pronation and internal arm rotation/roll).

If the ATP fh is a throw, then there is active pronation.

If there is no active pronation in the ATP fh, then I wouldn't use "throwing" as a good analogy.

Draggy ... the point I was trying to make about relaxed feeling late arm effort is the difference between 1) effort to start the arm in motion 2) add to the arm in motion. My 2hbh is a good example. I start the forward swing with right side pull and arm triangle turning together (minimal left arm). After that arm triangle mass has been sent on it's way, and before contact, I make significant left arm effort/addition into contact (I hit with left arm/hand). That left arm effort "feels" much less than my left arm fh drills where the left arm has to do more at the start of the swing.

This is a repeat from an earlier post but is a good example of active pronation:

For @mad dog1 ... who only wants to hear from high level players that coach:

Our head pro (hp) and instructor in this little story from 30ish years ago:

HP played #1 singles at Div 1. He was playing pro qualifying tournaments in Europe in his early 20s. He had an accident with a saw ... severed his index finger completely off .. reattached ... ended pro aspirations ... was still winning local open singles tournaments into his 30s. Head pro ever since early 20s.

One day at indoor drill with hp ... he told all of us to try and hit overheads over the back tarp. Game on ...swinging out of our shoes ... only a couple cleared. He let us do this for a while ... and then had us stop and watch him. He stood near the net, put racquet in trophy position ... and easily hit overhead after overhead over the tarp. His words based on memory ... "you have to snap it ... it's pronation". He was teaching us to actively use pronation for easy pace. That lesson helped my flat serve down the T more than overheads. I didn't need any more overhead pace, but definitely needed more pace on my flat deuce t serve. I think it was the first time my serve probably hit 100+ mph (obviously guessing). To this day ... I have a flat serve to deuce t without exaggerated pronation when accuracy is priority.

Maybe that just applies to serve, and not the ATP fh ... but I don't think so.

Fire ... I thought one of the best parts of Chloe's (sp??) observations in the article you linked was the points of supination in strokes:

McEnroe - never
Sloan - behind back
Federer - during forward swing.

Does Sloan and Fed both get from there to contact with passive pronation? The only one for sure with a passive forearm is Mac.

Whenever a coach talks of pronation, one doesn’t understand or doesn’t care to distinguish pronation from ISR. Which is maybe correct to keep things simple. They all actually talk about arm rotation, that’s it. Brian Gordon spoke for qualified audience, not for students on court. He calls it clear - ISR. We know the difference. Is this difference important to teach someone good stroke? Answer may vary. Unless something bad happens (like forcefully no ISR and trying to just pronate), it’s probably ok not to focus on the joint motion, but go with things like thumb push by @Dou
But discussing and describing motions online we better be precise.