Pretty cool links about ATP vs WTA forehand

[Blasted]

Basicaly my short and to the point points

1.ATP forehand is a superior technique and has the most bang for the buck in terms of spin and pace
2.harder timing and all that crap is bullsh#t, you dont control timing of the flip, its impossible, you get timing by feel, by hitting thousands of balls upon balls.
Serve pronation happens even faster, why is nobody ever questioning that? That its impossible to aim the serve because pronation and angle of racquet flips around so fast?
Because its not impossible, it takes hitting 100000000000000 balls and you build the timing by feel

Basically this. The supposed "easier timing" of the WTA forehand is just bulsh*t invented by some teachers who themselves are unable to hit a modern forehand properly. You can not teach something that you're not able to do, so obvioulsy it's easier for these teachers to say "I'm teaching the WTA forehand because it's the better forehand" than to say "I'm teaching the WTA forehand because it's the only forehand I know".

Tennis is all about taking time away from the opponent. The ATP forehand takes less time to prepare without any tradeoff when it comes to power and topspin, it's the superior shot and it's not even close. There's a reason why Serena Williams has dominated the WTA tour for so long, most women can't handle the speed of her shots with their prolonged take-backs. And it's no coincidence that women who had great ATP forehands like Henin and Dementieva found a lot of success against S. Williams when most other female players failed to do so.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I would also add that unlike pro tournaments, the surface in a lot of public parks (at least where I play) are very fast with a high bounce as they are basically just cement with some paint on them.

Where people start hitting their groundstrokes harder on those surfaces, the classic and WTA swings can become rather difficult to time because sometimes by the time you complete that huge takeback the ball has moved past you by then.

If we go look at Mac's, Thiem's, Del Potro's, Sharapova's will the differences in takebacks be that big?

Also ... how do we measure the full swng ... hand path or racquet head. Mac's rh isn't taking any detours .... point b to point c (see what I did there?). Fed's racquet head has to travel the esr/isr yellow brick road.

Also consider:

Mac:
- take racquet back
- wait
- swing

Fed:
- take racquet back high with the left arm pointing syncronized backstroke
- pat the doggy and send left arm AWAY
- rh float like a butterfly down to variable slot
- pull trigger at slot ... but only hand without arm
- the body powered armless hand magically transforms into butt cap forward ... involving arm and hand and wrist gymnastics
- at the exact swing g spot, the racquet flips around, the left arm/hand pulls the air break, the shoulder rotation pauses, and the arm is sent on it's way like a beautiful smart cruise missile ... smart because the arm is now disconnected from the body but will still hit it's mark ... uh ... ball.

No expert ... but back, wait, hit sounds cr@p court appropriate.

 

[Bender]

If we go look at Mac's, Thiem's, Del Potro's, Sharapova's will the differences in takebacks be that big?

Also ... how do we measure the full swng ... hand path or racquet head. Mac's rh isn't taking any detours .... point b to point c (see what I did there?). Fed's racquet head has to travel the esr/isr yellow brick road.

Also consider:

Mac:
- take racquet back
- wait
- swing

Fed:
- take racquet back high with the left arm pointing syncronized backstroke
- pat the doggy and send left arm AWAY
- rh float like a butterfly down to variable slot
- pull trigger at slot ... but only hand without arm
- the body powered armless hand magically transforms into butt cap forward ... involving arm and hand and wrist gymnastics
- at the exact swing g spot, the racquet flips around, the left arm/hand pulls the air break, the shoulder rotation pauses, and the arm is sent on it's way like a beautiful smart cruise missile ... smart because the arm is now disconnected from the body but will still hit it's mark ... uh ... ball.

No expert ... but back, wait, hit sounds cr@p court appropriate.

I think the part that really makes the more classical style of forehands difficult against hard hitters on fast surfaces is that they need to be in a neutral stance to be truly effective--and where the ball is practically blinking past you (by amateur standards), it is difficult to set up properly.

Some WTA takebacks OTOH extend behind the back / shoulders so these may be even more difficult to time, whereas on slower acrylic courts they work very well.

 

[Dragy]

If we go look at Mac's, Thiem's, Del Potro's, Sharapova's will the differences in takebacks be that big?

Also ... how do we measure the full swng ... hand path or racquet head. Mac's rh isn't taking any detours .... point b to point c (see what I did there?). Fed's racquet head has to travel the esr/isr yellow brick road.

Also consider:

Mac:
- take racquet back
- wait
- swing

Fed:
- take racquet back high with the left arm pointing syncronized backstroke
- pat the doggy and send left arm AWAY
- rh float like a butterfly down to variable slot
- pull trigger at slot ... but only hand without arm
- the body powered armless hand magically transforms into butt cap forward ... involving arm and hand and wrist gymnastics
- at the exact swing g spot, the racquet flips around, the left arm/hand pulls the air break, the shoulder rotation pauses, and the arm is sent on it's way like a beautiful smart cruise missile ... smart because the arm is now disconnected from the body but will still hit it's mark ... uh ... ball.

No expert ... but back, wait, hit sounds cr@p court appropriate.

Can you please write similar description for walking down the stairs? Any issues doing this practically?

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yes, that time, and you wondering why laying racquet back preliminary was not the good way to get the flip. And I think the way you describe it - "got to pretty decent flip" - highlights the issues they called you for recently. Focusing on minute details and visuals. Getting racquet flip more or less is not the goal. It may be a visual marker. Hitting all key fundamentals is most important. Then the picture will take care of itself.

Oh ... I am definitely NOT doing the "flip takes care of itself" religious wars again ... EVER. I decided long ago any utility in the term "flip" was a measure of back and forth arm roll. Said another way ... I see the different FHs more as a continuum than some rigid definition. I think Delpo, Agassi hit some flip, Fed and Sock hit a bigger flip. Different grips, racquet orientation, some point racquet forward first ... don't care.

 

[Blasted]

If we go look at Mac's, Thiem's, Del Potro's, Sharapova's will the differences in takebacks be that big?

Also ... how do we measure the full swng ... hand path or racquet head. Mac's rh isn't taking any detours .... point b to point c (see what I did there?). Fed's racquet head has to travel the esr/isr yellow brick road.

Also consider:

Mac:
- take racquet back
- wait
- swing

Fed:
- take racquet back high with the left arm pointing syncronized backstroke
- pat the doggy and send left arm AWAY
- rh float like a butterfly down to variable slot
- pull trigger at slot ... but only hand without arm
- the body powered armless hand magically transforms into butt cap forward ... involving arm and hand and wrist gymnastics
- at the exact swing g spot, the racquet flips around, the left arm/hand pulls the air break, the shoulder rotation pauses, and the arm is sent on it's way like a beautiful smart cruise missile ... smart because the arm is now disconnected from the body but will still hit it's mark ... uh ... ball.

No expert ... but back, wait, hit sounds cr@p court appropriate.

Why would you take the time to wait though ? I propose a better, more effective way to hit your stroke :
- take racquet back
- swing

You get one less step so that's like 33.33% less steps, that's a pretty big number. And I don't really see the point in waiting when you can just swing the racquet at the ball and hit a winner anyway

 

[ByeByePoly]

Can you please write similar description for walking down the stairs? Any issues doing this practically?

Which stairs technique? Legging or the modern legless one that just happens if you do it right and don't talk about it too much?

 

[Bender]

Can you please write similar description for walking down the stairs? Any issues doing this practically?

Which stairs technique? Legging or the modern legless one that just happens if you do it right and don't talk about it too much?

 

[Dragy]

Which stairs technique? Legging or the modern legless one that just happens if you do it right and don't talk about it too much?

The one that allows you to put your feet precisely on the steps running downwards, sideways, backwards, and have no issues with timing despite all multiple joints and muscles involved, and being in dynamic imbalance.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Why would you take the time to wait though ? I propose a better, more effective way to hit your stroke :
- take racquet back
- swing

You get one less step so that's like 33.33% less steps, that's a pretty big number. And I don't really see the point in waiting when you can just swing the racquet at the ball and hit a winner anyway

Exactly ... except you forgot to factor in young @Bender 's cr@p court. Radwanska has a great looking backend ... I mean backhand where she there is no waiting between back and swing. But if she was on Bender's cr@p courts ... ball hits a crack ... she is going to have to hold that backswing for a beat or two. Plus ... she isn't ever coming back to the cr@p courts.

 

[Bender]

Exactly ... except you forgot to factor in young @Bender 's cr@p court. Radwanska has a great looking backend ... I mean backhand where she there is no waiting between back and swing. But if she was on Bender's cr@p courts ... ball hits a crack ... she is going to have to hold that backswing for a beat or two. Plus ... she isn't ever coming back to the cr@p courts.

The pic I PMed you a while back is one crap court I agree, but the ones I normally play don't have any issues. They're just super fast and bounce well.

 

[ByeByePoly]

This would be better if it was @Dragy ... we could send him a life alert bracelet.

 

[Dragy]

This would be better if it was @Dragy ... we could send him a life alert bracelet.

If you start practicing modern FH right now you wont't mishit like those old ladies.

 

[ByeByePoly]

The pic I PMed you a while back is one crap court I agree, but the ones I normally play don't have any issues. They're just super fast and bounce well.

My park court I take the ball machine to is cr@p now. Two courts ... one is still safe enough to play points, one is not. They were resurfaced 5ish years ago ... obviously cheaply. In a way it's good ... I don't need much of a court to hit a ball machine, and court is almost always open.

 

[Dragy]

Oh ... I am definitely NOT doing the "flip takes care of itself" religious wars again ... EVER. I decided long ago any utility in the term "flip" was a measure of back and forth arm roll. Said another way ... I see the different FHs more as a continuum than some rigid definition. I think Delpo, Agassi hit some flip, Fed and Sock hit a bigger flip. Different grips, racquet orientation, some point racquet forward first ... don't care.

As you see here https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...some-mini-tennis-warm-up.629586/post-12820807 you can get Fed-like lag without rolling your arm.

 

[ByeByePoly]

If you start practicing modern FH right now you wont't mishit like those old ladies.

Hey ... I don't mishit my old FH ..................... much.

 

[Bender]

If you start practicing modern FH right now you wont't mishit like those old ladies.

What are you taking about, those ladies have impeccable rotation and weight transfer

 

[Dragy]

What are you taking about, those ladies have impeccable rotation and weight transfer

They are charging forward a tad recklessly, buy today's slower court and poly string standards.

 

[Bender]

They are charging forward a tad recklessly, buy today's slower court and poly string standards.

To conquer topspin, you must become topspin itself

 

[Hmgraphite1]

To conquer topspin, you must become topspin itself

In other words, have a few more till your head spins, its Halloween afterall, I got Guinness

 

[One Handed Dynasty]

Easy atp forehand reference from the topspeed blog:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[One Handed Dynasty]

Hey @One Handed Dynasty

You're a bit late to your bandwagon, lovefest party with your bullsh!$@s . I'm no longer interested in this dead horse of a debate. Good readers can see for themselves while you, FireTW and your ilks can self congrat one another. Life is too short to spend "talking" with guys like you. LOL

My guy, what are you still doing on here [emoji23][emoji23] I’m back to talking about forehand technique, stop clogging up a technique thread for ambitious users.

Getting away from his circus... it’s a simple setup and swing path. Unit turn, explode with legs and hips followed by core, loose arm, linear swing path, and vertical shoulder motion. For me personally the hardest part is relaxing my shoulder, it seems to tense up when I rotate and push my chest out. If anyone has any pointers they would be much appreciated!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[user92626]

@One,

You are just so clueless about what I was debating. I don't think it's worth my time rehashing the point, but since you seem so insisting, I can try. But first, read my post #5 and #137. See if you can comprehend, then you can quote and refute my points directly.

Don't try to summarize or paraphrase my debates with your intelligence like you did earlier, it's very confusing and misleading.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

My guy, what are you still doing on here [emoji23][emoji23] I’m back to talking about forehand technique, stop clogging up a technique thread for ambitious users.

Getting away from his circus... it’s a simple setup and swing path. Unit turn, explode with legs and hips followed by core, loose arm, linear swing path, and vertical shoulder motion. For me personally the hardest part is relaxing my shoulder, it seems to tense up when I rotate and push my chest out. If anyone has any pointers they would be much appreciated!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think focusing on the flip is what makes it sound complicated. But the flip will happen if you just keep the racquet on the hitting side through take back and swing, get it underneath first, swing with good extension, then rolling over in the follow through. And yes, I also noticed what you said. When I am able to loosen up the shoulder, good things happen.

 

[One Handed Dynasty]

@One,

You are just so clueless about what I was debating. I don't think it's worth my time rehashing the point, but since you seem so insisting, I can try. But first, read my post #5 and #137. See if you can comprehend, then you can quote and refute my points directly.

Don't try to summarize or paraphrase my debates with your intelligence like you did earlier, it's very confusing and misleading.

I read through the whole thread. Address an issue and I will counter..

I think focusing on the flip is what makes it sound complicated. But the flip will happen if you just keep the racquet on the hitting side through take back and swing, get it underneath first, swing with good extension, then rolling over in the follow through. And yes, I also noticed what you said. When I am able to loosen up the shoulder, good things happen.

I agree. For me the loose shoulder, which gives vertical movement through ESR and ISR seems to be the key to control for me. Unfortunately I’m fighting through ~15 years of muscle memory




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[5263]

Speaking of fewer moving parts in the WTA fh, shouldn't we mention what FH we actually refer to? Or maybe take into account this distinction comes from 5+ years ago. Cause I agree Venus FH may have simpler composition, while evolving WTA FHs like Halep, Svitolina or Wozniacki seem to be rather complex, with combination of high-to-low-to-high swing, torso rotation and ISR/windshield wiper into contact. They also have strong accross component which actually challenges the "Longer window" premise as well.

In my opinion what actually distingushes those "current WTA" swings from men's swings is:
1. Bigger takeback which actually complicates timing.
2. Sub-optimal linkage for rotational power transfer to arm, which hinders "bursty" (not acually just instant, but localized in significantly shorter time&space frame) power generation and therefore makes player swing longer to gradually build up RHS.

I think you make a very reasonable point about current WTA swings and honestly I don't study them much for what I think are obvious reasons.

But Imo, what I see as the big key on the ATP Fh advantage, is the idea I coined yrs back as the "Swivel".

It takes place in the most effecient ATP Fhs as an improvement over the "flip" imo. Similar to the Flip or a variation of it, with the racket head forward of the hand in the prep position for the hitting side, the hand can move forward unencumbered to the max extent possible by a "swivel" motion around the racket's center of mass. Flipping the racket as required with the early efforts to make the smaller "C" swing more compact, takes more time and effort than a swivel, along with some issues for hitting the slot precisely. As the hand goes forward with the Swivel to time and align the contact path/point, the racket head will swivel back into the slot/load position with almost no resistance, allowing for near instantaneous reaction time for the hand to deal with kicking, rising, fast incoming ball paths. When the racket hits the slot, lagging into drag position, the racket head is loaded and ready to respond instantly to the centrifugal power that is to come shortly in the modern swing.

 

[5263]

Mac didn't have a racquet flipping around is hand ... Fed does. Since I'm the only one of the two of us to hit a Mac continental FH for a couple of decades ... you will just have to trust me on this ... frickin easier..

Yes, easier in some respects.....except it won't work consistently if at all against a Fed 95 mph Fh and even worse against a 90mph Nadal Biting TS Fh. Granted, you don't have to return Nadal's Fh, but you do play someone who hits as fast and tough for you as Nadal's ball is for JMac....or you should at times.

If you want a Fh that will function best against the bigger Fhs and even some of the bigger serves you face, then the ATP is the one that will allow you to hit a Fh instead of being forced to block or slice the return in more instances.

 

[5263]

Basically this.

Tennis is all about taking time away from the opponent.

and part of how the ATP Fh does this is by letting you move up into the court more often to take balls on the rise or near the apex of the bounce. This puts you in a position to take control of more points earlier.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Yes, easier in some respects.....except it won't work consistently if at all against a Fed 95 mph Fh and even worse against a 90mph Nadal Biting TS Fh. Granted, you don't have to return Nadal's Fh, but you do play someone who hits as fast and tough for you as Nadal's ball is for JMac....or you should at times.

If you want a Fh that will function best at the bigger Fhs and even some of the bigger serves you face, then the ATP is the one that will allow you to hit a Fh instead of being forced to block or slice the return.

We really need to always clarify these discussions ... are we talking about ATP tennis, WTA tennis, rec male 3.0 - 5.0. You know my past level and history ... you know it won't fly telling me 4.5s will be rushed and late unless they hit an ATP fh. That is basically like saying Key's can only get away with not playing the flip because she doesn't play against the high level of play found at your local 4.5 singles tournaments. hehehehe ...

I need some pics or video of this "swivel".

 

[Dragy]

We really need to always clarify these discussions ... are we talking about ATP tennis, WTA tennis, rec male 3.0 - 5.0. You know my past level and history ... you know it won't fly telling me 4.5s will be rushed and late unless they hit an ATP fh. That is basically like saying Key's can only get away with not playing the flip because she doesn't play against the high level of play found at your local 4.5 singles tournaments. hehehehe ...

I need some pics or video of this "swivel".

Even your name is not Madison, man, cmon.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Even your name is not Madison, man, cmon.

What are you talking about now Jr? Do I need @Bender to be our interpreter? He is the only young guy here that can also talk "old guy".

Speaking of Bender ... wasn't he offering a POMO rotation direction with those stair rolling ladies?

 

[Dragy]

What are you talking about now Jr? Do I need @Bender to be our interpreter?

Same as always. One doesn't simply take pro-WTA FH and plays it in his 4.5 matches. Cause it's not Madison who'd struggle with 4.5 but 4.5 who'd struggle with Madison's FH form.

 

[5263]

We really need to always clarify these discussions ... are we talking about ATP tennis, WTA tennis, rec male 3.0 - 5.0. You know my past level and history ... you know it won't fly telling me 4.5s will be rushed and late unless they hit an ATP fh. That is basically like saying Key's can only get away with not playing the flip because she doesn't play against the high level of play found at your local 4.5 singles tournaments. hehehehe ...

I need some pics or video of this "swivel".

Sorry, but I can't agree. Imo you ignore the relativity that is always there in tennis. When you face your upper limit on returning a fast serve, it is much the same as when Fed faces a 125mph serve. ...Same with big Fhs. Your timing is based on a range of avg Fhs you face and a solid Fh will suffice most of the time....but when you face a bigger shot or player out of the ordinary, you are rushed just like Fed rushes DJ. I've used the ATP for yrs before it was publicized and always wondered why I could play up so much better than most of my peers. Now I think that the quick pace of Dubs forced me to use the ATP on instinct which is one of the big factors that helped me handle heavy rising balls of big hitters that most of my peers struggled to handle. I also think my redirect shot is important as well, which is partly developed out of the ATP Fh. Imo this technique is key if you want to hit with better players or even just to handle the bigger shots from your normal opponents.

 

[5263]

I need some pics or video of this "swivel".

The flip will tend to keep the hand 'more or less' in the same area as the racket flips around in a modified C backswing. There are all types of variations on this leading to rabbit hole discussions about what is ATP and what isn't. All of these are ATP if they stay mostly on the hitting side, then when you do more "swivel" than flip, it is the racket swapping ends with sort of a spin around the center of mass. As the hand comes forward to contact, the racket head swivels or spins back to the slot, lagging to drag to the contact area.

 

[FiReFTW]

Sorry, but I can't agree. Imo you ignore the relativity that is always there in tennis. When you face your upper limit on returning a fast serve, it is much the same as when Fed faces a 125mph serve. ...Same with big Fhs. Your timing is based on a range of avg Fhs you face and a solid Fh will suffice most of the time....but when you face a bigger shot or player out of the ordinary, you are rushed just like Fed rushes DJ. I've used the ATP for yrs before it was publicized and always wondered why I could play up so much better than most of my peers. Now I think that the quick pace of Dubs forced me to use the ATP on instinct which is one of the big factors that helped me handle heavy rising balls of big hitters that most of my peers struggled to handle. I also think my redirect shot is important as well, which is partly developed out of the ATP Fh. Imo this technique is key if you want to hit with better players or even just to handle the bigger shots from your normal opponents.

I completely agree with this, not directly about this ATP FH point, but in general the whole point, very well written, people are too focused on what ATP players face, but they need to understand its not about that pace, its about your own individual physique and whats fast or heavy spin relative to YOUR ability.

Thats kinda like some people who say rec players can't hit winners like pro players anyway and its more about keeping the ball in play, since you can't hit the shots as fast as the pro players..
Well while that might be true, you and your opponent also can't run as fast as pro players or react as fast as pro players.

Just a random example im throwing in, there are many such examples.

 

[ByeByePoly]

The flip will tend to keep the hand 'more or less' in the same area as the racket flips around in a modified C backswing. There are all types of variations on this leading to rabbit hole discussions about what is ATP and what isn't. All of these are ATP if they stay mostly on the hitting side, then when you do more "swivel" than flip, it is the racket swapping ends with sort of a spin around the center of mass. As the hand comes forward to contact, the racket head swivels or spins back to the slot, lagging to drag to the contact area.

still need pics ... video.

 

[Dragy]

still need pics ... video.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Sorry, but I can't agree. Imo you ignore the relativity that is always there in tennis. When you face your upper limit on returning a fast serve, it is much the same as when Fed faces a 125mph serve. ...Same with big Fhs. Your timing is based on a range of avg Fhs you face and a solid Fh will suffice most of the time....but when you face a bigger shot or player out of the ordinary, you are rushed just like Fed rushes DJ. I've used the ATP for yrs before it was publicized and always wondered why I could play up so much better than most of my peers. Now I think that the quick pace of Dubs forced me to use the ATP on instinct which is one of the big factors that helped me handle heavy rising balls of big hitters that most of my peers struggled to handle. I also think my redirect shot is important as well, which is partly developed out of the ATP Fh. Imo this technique is key if you want to hit with better players or even just to handle the bigger shots from your normal opponents.

Yep ... agree to disagree, particularly on ros. At all levels there are times when you are forced to shorten a backswing, even block a ros. In other words ... in defensive mode we reduce complexity, the opposite of flip/swivel around the hand. We already shorten our backswings ... you are just adding complexity around the hand and claiming it saves you time. Make your case on the offense side ... given time the flip/swivel gives you topspin upside over other techniques. That said ... show me a rec player trying to hit winners on all ros ... and I assume he will not being going home with the trophy.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Fed hits a swivel? If so @5263 isn't exactly going out on a limb promoting it.

 

[5263]

still need pics ... video.

you can see it pretty good in slow motion starting around 2;20. Realize the racket swivel around the center of mass happens as the racket is also dropping or falling into the slot, notable as how the racket is pointing at the camera or slightly forward of that before the hand moves forward and the racket swivels to drag from the slot.

 

[Dragy]

There's no complexity in keeping wrist loose. Here's your return of serve with less torso coil, more direct takeback:

 

[5263]

Yep .... show me a rec player trying to hit winners on all ros ... and I assume he will not being going home with the trophy.

so we have gone from 'being able to use your Standard Fh more often' to "trying to hit winners on ALL ros?"

 

[ByeByePoly]

you can see it pretty good in slow motion starting around 2;20. Realize the racket swivel around the center of mass happens as the racket is also dropping or falling into the slot, notable as how the racket is pointing at the camera or slightly forward of that before the hand moves forward and the racket swivels to drag from the slot.

So swivel is flip with racquet pointing forward first? Fed hits a swivel flip, and Delpo hits a non-swivel flip?

 

[ByeByePoly]

so we have gone from 'being able to use your Standard Fh more often' to "trying to hit winners on ALL ros?"

Well ... I didn't buy the swivel would have helped me return my friend's (ex-D1 pitcher) serve during 4.5 singles tournaments. He brought the flat heat, it was all I could do on first serves to get block serves back. I was trying to make your swivel argument for you on offense ... ros where you could take a cut ... hence next stop winners. I made the case for you too strongly ... should have just said more topspin on ros.

 

[ByeByePoly]

There's no complexity in keeping wrist loose. Here's your return of serve with less torso coil, more direct takeback:

There is no complexity for Verdasco ... one of your FHs cleared the shrubs.

 

[5263]

Fed hits a swivel? If so @5263 isn't exactly going out on a limb promoting it.

I'm not promoting anything. I'm just sharing my opinions on the topic. Some players hit a more pronounced swivel/flip than others. Do what you enjoy!

 

[5263]

Well ... I didn't buy the swivel would have helped me return my friend's (ex-D1 pitcher) serve during 4.5 singles tournaments. He brought the flat heat, it was all I could do on first serves to get block serves back. I was trying to make your swivel argument for you on offense ... ros where you could take a cut ... hence next stop winners. I made the case for you too strongly ... should have just said more topspin on ros.

Right, there are clearly times when you need to block/redirect the hotter balls, but if you can expand the envelope a bit on when you can take a fuller cut, that is still worth something, especially if it is from closer in and on the rise.

 

[Dragy]

There is no complexity for Verdasco ... one of your FHs cleared the shrubs.

Yeah that was on a sitter. Have struggled with nothing balls. Now addressed with more loop and no tightness in arm through backswing - basically a technics issue. Haven't struggled with swinging onto fast incoming balls. Have missed - yes, but all "normal" misses.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Still not sure what the end game is here for rec level players. If you had a "WTA" forehand like this, as a rec player, you'd be fine playing any 4.5 with an "ATP" forehand. Power, timing, spin are all accessible.

Just gotta put in reps with whatever you got.

Mind you, she is/was only 17/18 too.

Just need @2good4U to talk about how he would take games and a match against her to complete the thread.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Right, there are clearly times when you need to block/redirect the hotter balls, but if you can expand the envelope a bit on when you can take a fuller cut, that is still worth something, especially if it is from closer in and on the rise.

I have already agreed on the "expanding the topspin window" with the flip. I also agree it's the obvious choice for the heavy topspin ATP game. The debate that happens here (ttw) is "the male rec player will always be his best with the flip technique". I think that does not hold up ... say at 4.5, because you can find pretty flat hitters, and s&v winning in rec tennis. We had heavy topspin 5.0s, and 100% flat every stroke 5.0s ... all winning. We should create a thread and ask who has had their a $ $ kicked by a flat hitter. I have.

No idea why I am talking about FHs again ... hopefully it is a temporary relapse.