Pretty cool links about ATP vs WTA forehand

[ByeByePoly]

Still not sure what the end game is here for rec level players. If you had a "WTA" forehand like this, as a rec player, you'd be fine playing any 4.5 with an "ATP" forehand. Power, timing, spin are all accessible.

Just gotta put in reps with whatever you got.

Mind you, she is/was only 17/18 too.

Just need @2good4U to talk about how he would take games and a match against her to complete the thread.

Whoa ... 16 ... check out that rhs. The lag on her 2hbh looked crazy good ... will go check frames later. I will take that FH right now and throw mine in the trash.

 

[ChaelAZ]

For contrast, in the "ATP" style. Another 17/18 recruit.

 

[FiReFTW]

Still not sure what the end game is here for rec level players. If you had a "WTA" forehand like this, as a rec player, you'd be fine playing any 4.5 with an "ATP" forehand. Power, timing, spin are all accessible.

Just gotta put in reps with whatever you got.

Mind you, she is/was only 17/18 too.

Just need @2good4U to talk about how he would take games and a match against her to complete the thread.

She looks fairly decent, but 3.0 at best.

Your average ttw poster would crush her 0 0.

Some better players like @J011yroger and a few others would probably beat her 1 1, if they were playing with their left arm.

 

[5263]

I have already agreed on the "expanding the topspin window" with the flip. I also agree it's the obvious choice for the heavy topspin ATP game. The debate that happens here (ttw) is "the male rec player will always be his best with the flip technique". I think that does not hold up ... say at 4.5, because you can find pretty flat hitters, and s&v winning in rec tennis. We had heavy topspin 5.0s, and 100% flat every stroke 5.0s ... all winning. We should create a thread and ask who has had their a $ $ kicked by a flat hitter. I have.

No idea why I am talking about FHs again ... hopefully it is a temporary relapse.

I guess the idea is if you think it is a hard and demanding technique then not so good, but to me it is easy which is why it can work under the most demanding situations. If it is hard to you, then it likely won't help, but if it is natural as it may be to many, then it is a more responsive technique. But it has little to nothing to do with flat vs topspin.

 

[5263]

She looks fairly decent, but 3.0 at best.

Your average ttw poster would crush her 0 0.

Some better players like @J011yroger and a few others would probably beat her 1 1, if they were playing with their left arm.

I know you are being sarcastic, but really we can't tell much about how good she is from that vid Imo. Her hitting partner was incredible if her shots were good, because the hitting partner was giving awesome feeds like a machine. Also, those indoor courts make nearly everyone seem nearly a level higher with their hitting, due to the amazing sound effects. I'm sure she is a nice player, nothing there I saw to get excited about.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I guess the idea is you think it is a hard and demanding technique but to me it is easy which is why it can work under the most demanding situations. If it is hard to you, then it likely won't help, but if it is natural as it may be to many, then it is a more responsive technique.

Yes, I think a Fed fh would be harder to hit (low UE repeatable) than a Halep for the average 4.0, 4.5 male flattish hitting player.

BUT ... I think the opposite for the player who plays big topspin, or wants to. I think the average ... let say 4.5 male big topspin singles player would have a much higher heavy ts ceiling than a Halep FH. That is "potential" ... some of them would end up better players with a Halep and less topspin (not all rec players best results will come from big topspin ... I weight being able to hit your targets more).

So ... to me it's more a choice of tool for the job ... than "what's harder". A kick serve is "harder" to learn, but the right tool for many of our games. The western grip is "harder" ... and the wrong tool for most of our games.

"not about topspin or flat"

Agree to disagree. To me the overriding reason to learn the more difficult ATP flip (tool) is it's the right tool for big topspin games. If you are getting rushed at 4.5 tennis, I would have a look at your prep, not which fh you are hitting.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I know you are being sarcastic, but really we can't tell much about how good she is from that vid Imo. Her hitting partner was incredible if her shots were good, because the hitting partner was giving awesome feeds like a machine. Also, those indoor courts make nearly everyone seem nearly a level higher with their hitting, due to the amazing sound effects. I'm sure she is a nice player, nothing there I saw to get excited about.

"Her hitting partner was incredible if her shots were good, because the hitting partner was giving awesome feeds like a machine."

I almost typed exactly that in earlier. Anytime you see someone hitting that many balls in the strike zone ... there is someone VERY good on the other side of the net.

 

[ChaelAZ]

lol FFS...it's Fed or everyone sucks.
Got it.

 

[5263]

Yes, I think a Fed fh would be harder to hit (low UE repeatable) than a Halep for the average 4.0, 4.5 male flattish hitting player.

BUT ... I think the opposite for the player who plays big topspin, or wants to. I think the average ... let say 4.5 male big topspin singles player would have a much higher heavy ts ceiling than a Halep FH. That is "potential" ... some of them would end up better players with a Halep and less topspin (not all rec players best results will come from big topspin ... I weight being able to hit your targets more).

So ... to me it's more a choice of tool for the job ... than "what's harder". A kick serve is "harder" to learn, but the right tool for many of our games. The western grip is "harder" ... and the wrong tool for most of our games.

"not about topspin or flat"

Agree to disagree. To me the overriding reason to learn the more difficult ATP flip (tool) is it's the right tool for big topspin games. If you are getting rushed at 4.5 tennis, I would have a look at your prep, not which fh you are hitting.

Well I appreciate your comments, and yes, we can agree to disagree.

Imo you are working from backwards tools for the job.
-ATP Fh is about being able to rip a ball back mainly when receieved fast and on the rise (where they will return flattish trajectory with med spin)...and that is just opposite of what we see with the big topspin shots, which are normally hit as the ball is falling. Sure they still stay mostly ATP with the falling ball, as that is their standard Fh they developed to handle the fast risers, but the ATP may not have any advantage over WTA for the dropping ball to hit heavy topspin.
-WTA players are all trying to hit hard for precisely this reason. Few of them have the right tool for the job of receiving the fast rising ball, so those who can hit it hard will have good success on the ladies tour against the WTA swings and less coverage. Since hitting at the top of the bounce allows for variety, the lades use this apex to try to hit real hard to exploit the weakness of the opponent's WTA swing against this hard rising ball.

So from my POV, the tools for the Job are the ATP for rising, harder, flatter trajectory shots and either ATP or WTA work for top of the bounce where both can hit spin or power....and the same for the dropping ball where ATP & WTA can both load up the big spin.

Notice the separating and defining factor here is that the ATP is good for the hard rising ball with both the ATP and WTA being nearly equal otherwise. Go with the ATP and have the technique that works with the widest variety of incoming situation and encourages stepping to to take control of points. Go with the WTA and be content look for the top of the bounce or dropping balls and likely have to avoid situations requiring you to handle hard rising balls, which includes, not being able to step in and dictate as well or often.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Well I appreciate your comments, and yes, we can agree to disagree.

Imo you are working from backwards tools for the job.
-ATP Fh is about being able to rip a ball back mainly when receieved fast and on the rise (where they will return flattish trajectory with med spin)...and that is just opposite of what we see with the big topspin shots, which are normally hit as the ball is falling. Sure they still stay mostly ATP with the falling ball, as that is their standard Fh they developed to handle the fast risers, but the ATP may not have any advantage over WTA for the dropping ball to hit heavy topspin.
-WTA players are all trying to hit hard for precisely this reason. Few of them have the right tool for the job of receiving the fast rising ball, so those who can hit it hard will have good success on the ladies tour against the WTA swings and less coverage. Since hitting at the top of the bounce allows for variety, the lades use this apex to try to hit real hard to exploit the weakness of the opponent's WTA swing against this hard rising ball.

So from my POV, the tools for the Job are the ATP for rising, harder, flatter trajectory shots and either ATP or WTA work for top of the bounce where both can hit spin or power....and the same for the dropping ball where ATP & WTA can both load up the big spin.

Notice the separating and defining factor here is that the ATP is good for the hard rising ball with both the ATP and WTA being nearly equal otherwise. Go with the ATP and have the technique that works with the widest variety of incoming situation and encourages stepping to to take control of points. Go with the WTA and be content look for the top of the bounce or dropping balls and likely have to avoid situations requiring you to handle hard rising balls, which includes, not being able to step in and dictate as well or often.

I am missing why flip is good for lower balls ... or balls on the rise. I always heard the flip evolved because everyone was having to hit higher balls ... more topspin, poly, court surfaces not as fast anymore. That always made sense to me ... hit high balls with sw, sw+ grip, out in front, ww stroke, etc.

 

[FiReFTW]

I am missing why flip is good for lower balls ... or balls on the rise. I always heard the flip evolved because everyone was having to hit higher balls ... more topspin, poly, court surfaces not as fast anymore. That always made sense to me ... hit high balls with sw, sw+ grip, out in front, ww stroke, etc.

Your whole takeback and swing is much more compact so you are not as rushed with hard balls, balls on the rise etc so you can hit better shots off those shots, and with a WTA forehand you can't really hit low balls hard at all since the margin for error is way too little if you hit hard and flat, you need to spin it up alot and you don't get alot of penetration, while with the ATP forehand you can swing much faster on lower balls since u get more spin and the ball will dip down much more, so you won't overhit it as easily.

Think about it, and this doesn't relate to WTA or ATP forehand or whatever, but just some example

Say you had an extremely powerful forehand, however you hit it extremely flat, flat and hard, but its an amazing weapon.

What kind of ball would you prefer to hit with it? Shoulder high? Or bellow knee high?

 

[ByeByePoly]

Your whole takeback and swing is much more compact so you are not as rushed with hard balls, balls on the rise etc so you can hit better shots off those shots, and with a WTA forehand you can't really hit low balls hard at all since the margin for error is way too little if you hit hard and flat, you need to spin it up alot and you don't get alot of penetration, while with the ATP forehand you can swing much faster on lower balls since u get more spin and the ball will dip down much more, so you won't overhit it as easily.

Think about it, and this doesn't relate to WTA or ATP forehand or whatever, but just some example

Say you had an extremely powerful forehand, however you hit it extremely flat, flat and hard, but its an amazing weapon.

What kind of ball would you prefer to hit with it? Shoulder high? Or bellow knee high?

Compact?

 

[Hmgraphite1]

I also think my redirect shot is important as well, which is partly developed out of the ATP Fh.

This is the shot that kills me I think, I blast a shot but to close to the opponent they send it back in the opposite direction with all my pace, kind of a flat winner. How do you hit this?

 

[5263]

I am missing why flip is good for lower balls ... or balls on the rise. I always heard the flip evolved because everyone was having to hit higher balls ... more topspin, poly, court surfaces not as fast anymore. That always made sense to me ... hit high balls with sw, sw+ grip, out in front, ww stroke, etc.

First off, why do you think on the rise is a lower ball? How do high balls get higher? They rise up there. I like to hit balls on the rise just below shoulder height. and Tsonga is a great example of a player who does this well.

What do you consider a low ball. I tend to use a slice for low balls. Maybe you are talking about half-volley or short hoppers for on the rise?

 

[5263]

This is the shot that kills me I think, I blast a shot but to close to the opponent they send it back in the opposite direction with all my pace, kind of a flat winner. How do you hit this?

Basically if you have a good ATP Fh, it's just mainly the middle half of the stroke and done a bit like a volley. It lacks the full shoulder turn and normally lacks the full follow thru. It is sort of "find the ball, then pull to direct to target".

 

[Dragy]

Yes, I think a Fed fh would be harder to hit (low UE repeatable) than a Halep for the average 4.0, 4.5 male flattish hitting player.

BUT ... I think the opposite for the player who plays big topspin, or wants to. I think the average ... let say 4.5 male big topspin singles player would have a much higher heavy ts ceiling than a Halep FH. That is "potential" ... some of them would end up better players with a Halep and less topspin (not all rec players best results will come from big topspin ... I weight being able to hit your targets more).

So ... to me it's more a choice of tool for the job ... than "what's harder". A kick serve is "harder" to learn, but the right tool for many of our games. The western grip is "harder" ... and the wrong tool for most of our games.

"not about topspin or flat"

Agree to disagree. To me the overriding reason to learn the more difficult ATP flip (tool) is it's the right tool for big topspin games. If you are getting rushed at 4.5 tennis, I would have a look at your prep, not which fh you are hitting.

A bit tangent to the discussion, but how long since you watched Halep play, and her shots? I mean she’s not your example of WTA flat hitter go with Pliskova or Kvitova or Ostapenko. Or, yeah, Keys.

 

[Dragy]

For contrast, in the "ATP" style. Another 17/18 recruit.

Just to share, as I got nerdy and counted some frames, is appears they hit with comparable pace.

 

[FiReFTW]

Just to share, as I got nerdy and counted some frames, is appears they hit with comparable pace.

But the guy has much more spin on his shots, more margin for error.

 

[Dragy]

But the guy has much more spin on his shots, more margin for error.

I didn't want to speculate, although I have lots of thoughts. Actually, her deeper shots were flying rather high, and I was going to check how was the pace. The pace was ok, and there evidently was some good spin to bring the balls down. Rather high RHS we can observe advocates this too. For me, the main issue on the way to putting those two on similar level hitting-wise is what others noticed - the girl faced easier balls, even when playing points. So I cannot compare them, only speculate based on background knowledge and some sporadic stretched-out shots she received.

 

[FiReFTW]

I didn't want to speculate, although I have lots of thoughts. Actually, her deeper shots were flying rather high, and I was going to check how was the pace. The pace was ok, and there evidently was some good spin to bring the balls down. Rather high RHS we can observe advocates this too. For me, the main issue on the way to putting those two on similar level hitting-wise is what others noticed - the girl faced easier balls, even when playing points. So I cannot compare them, only speculate based on background knowledge and some sporadic stretched-out shots she received.

From visual alone I can see that her ball drops down more gradual due to gravity (of course with some spin also), but the guy shots dip down much more instantly and fast, which would imply theres alot more spin on them.

 

[Dragy]

From visual alone I can see that her ball drops down more gradual due to gravity (of course with some spin also), but the guy shots dip down much more instantly and fast, which would imply theres alot more spin on them.

Yeah but it's, you know, not a decider on it's own. Thiem forehands have higher average spin than DelPo's. Which is better? It depends on goals and matchup and surface and so on.

 

[FiReFTW]

Yeah but it's, you know, not a decider on it's own. Thiem forehands have higher average spin than DelPo's. Which is better? It depends on goals and matchup and surface and so on.

Yeah I didn't say anything about that just what I notice.

 

[ByeByePoly]

This is the shot that kills me I think, I blast a shot but to close to the opponent they send it back in the opposite direction with all my pace, kind of a flat winner. How do you hit this?

Isn't "the opposite direction" right back at you?

 

[ByeByePoly]

A bit tangent to the discussion, but how long since you watched Halep play, and her shots? I mean she’s not your example of WTA flat hitter go with Pliskova or Kvitova or Ostapenko. Or, yeah, Keys.

You have a point on strokes but I am a huge Halep fan ... so her example will have to do.

 

[Dragy]

You have a point on strokes but I am a huge Halep fan ... so her example will have to do.

Hope she's healthy by Aussie Open after that Coco sabotage

 

[ByeByePoly]

First off, why do you think on the rise is a lower ball? How do high balls get higher? They rise up there. I like to hit balls on the rise just below shoulder height. and Tsonga is a great example of a player who does this well.

What do you consider a low ball. I tend to use a slice for low balls. Maybe you are talking about half-volley or short hoppers for on the rise?

OK ... you are saying same thing, atp fh a better fit for the high topspin/bouncing game ... obviously true.

This is my perspective when I hear "all 4.5s would be better off with an ATP fh":

I think back to my 4.5 doubles indoor court time and USTA teams. The reason I think of that instead of my tournament singles years ago is because I get a good snapshot of a lot (say 20ish) adult male 4.5 - 5.0 ... 35 - 65 year old players. You would not likely find any racquet lag on their FHs, much less swivel/flip arm roll. We had juniors sub fairly often in indoor doubles permanent court time, and many had much bigger topspin games than we were playing. It really didn't give them much of an advantage ... almost all in the group could handle themselves at the net. The real advantage they brought sometimes is more pace on flatter ros we were not used to seeing ... but then that became a winner vs UE ros stat ... sometimes worked in their favor.

So I ask myself, would that group have been higher level adult doubles players with ATP fh instead. I doubt it. Would a bunch of 35 year olds showing up with more spin atp fhs have made these guys less "good"? Again, I doubt it.

In singles, I am well aware the problems/pain a heavy ts atp fh wielding can bring. The atp fh is the path to that heavy game ... and if a player has that heavy shot potential, no brainer ... atp all the way. The problem here is most adult rec players will never hit a heavy ball. They will hit good pace on flat balls, and big topspin without big pace ... but rarely both. The other consideration is the required athletic shape you have to be in to play that heavy game.

I think you could win 4.5 singles tournaments with a McEnroe fh technique ... for sure doubles. I also think you could obviously win with atp fhs. I think what gets missed to often in these discussions is rec tennis is for fun. I have got close enough to the "feeling of flip" to say to me, that is more fun than the traditional Mac fh, or a wta with no play/loseness at the wrist. 2hbhs are more fun with play at the wrist.

Really ... just market it as "more fun" ... "you have to have it for 4.5 tennis" not so much.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Hope she's healthy by Aussie Open after that Coco sabotage

Bummer ... did not know about injury. "Coco sabotage"?

 

[Dragy]

Bummer ... did not know about injury. "Coco sabotage"?

Injured her back practicing with Coco before Beijing iirc. Lost 1st match, withdrew from Moscow and then from Singapore to end the season.

 

[5263]

OK ... you are saying same thing, atp fh a better fit for the high topspin/bouncing game ... obviously true.

This is my perspective when I hear "all 4.5s would be better off with an ATP fh":

So I ask myself, would that group have been higher level adult doubles players with ATP fh instead. I doubt it. Would a bunch of 35 year olds showing up with more spin atp fhs have made these guys less "good"? Again, I doubt it.

Really ... just market it as "more fun" ... "you have to have it for 4.5 tennis" not so much.

NO, not saying the same thing....but I guess its just too subtle.

First off, I'm not saying everyone should do anything.

Next, Imo you are incorrect to think of ATP creating bigger spin. I'd say ATP can spin with the best of them, but that is not the issue. ATp is more about 'Receiving" than "sending" . If you are indoors with hard, flattish balls coming or even the Halep WTA coming, then that is where the ATP shines the most for moving in and taking rising balls early to take control of points.

 

[ByeByePoly]

NO, not saying the same thing....but I guess its just too subtle.

First off, I'm not saying everyone should do anything.

Next, Imo you are incorrect to think of ATP creating bigger spin. I'd say ATP can spin with the best of them, but that is not the issue. ATp is more about 'Receiving" than "sending" . If you are indoors with hard, flattish balls coming or even the Halep WTA coming, then that is where the ATP shines the most for moving in and taking rising balls early to take control of points.

Bummer ... thought we had agreed on something.