Prime Federer beats 2014 RG version Of Rafa..

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
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aman92

Legend
No version of Federer or Djokovic beats Nadal in a RG final.
Same goes for Federer or Nadal beating Djokovic in an AO final.

These guys are beasts in AO/RG finals.
Fed of AO 2006-07 definitely beats Djokovic of 2020, 21 and 23 finals and has even odds in 2008, 12 and 13
 

Start da Game

Hall of Fame

this is such an underrated slam of his career, it was his last real epic performance at a slam final......he never returned to that level again......i waited till the end of 2019 to see this nadal back but gave up after that......he still peaks for some battles but the effort is too much and he ends up getting injured after a tough match......
 

MichaelNadal

Bionic Poster
this is such an underrated slam of his career, it was his last real epic performance at a slam final......he never returned to that level again......i waited till the end of 2019 to see this nadal back but gave up after that......he still peaks for some battles but the effort is too much and he ends up getting injured after a tough match......
2017 and 20 FO say hi :D
 

jl809

Hall of Fame
No version of Federer or Djokovic beats Nadal in a RG final.
Same goes for Federer or Nadal beating Djokovic in an AO final.

These guys are beasts in AO/RG finals.
Fed of AO 12 (with the better FH and BH than in 2011, 2008 etc) beats Djokovic of AO 11, AO 15, AO 20, etc... don't @ me
 

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
Fed of AO 12 (with the better FH and BH than in 2011, 2008 etc) beats Djokovic of AO 11, AO 15, AO 20, etc... don't @ me

Lol no, he's just too good at AO in later rounds. Even Nadal was lucky to take him to 5th in same way Djokovic was lucky to stretch FO semi to 5th set. Why do you think Fed has never won even two sets against Nole at AO since he won his first AO?
 
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jl809

Hall of Fame
Lol no, he's just too good at AO in later rounds. Even Nadal was lucky to take him to 5th in same way Djokovic was lucky to stretch FO semi to 5th set. Why do you think Fed has never won even two sets against Nole at AO since he won his first AO?
because it was some of the worst versions of Fed against some of the best versions of Djokovic?

Federer's AO levels, roughly ranked (pretty sure this is consensus on this site too, not just some particularly "out there" opinion of mine, but @abmk and @mike danny feel free to input):

Tier 1: 2004, 2007, 2005, 2009, 2010
Tier 2: 2006, 2012, 2017
Tier 3: 2011, 2008, 2018
Tier 4: 2014, 2016
Tier 5: 2013, 2015, 2019
Bin tier: the rest

Djokovic's AO levels, roughly ranked in the same way:

Tier 1: 2008, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2016, 2019
Tier 2: 2014, 2015, 2021
Tier 3: 2020, 2023
Tier 4: 2010, 2007
Tier 5: 2009, 2018
Bin tier: the rest

Tier 1 could probably be split up even further for both guys into "peak" levels and simply "prime" levels.

In green are the versions who won out of the 4 matches they played.

It's pretty obvious what's going on here.... their 3-1 H2H at the AO is not quite as much of a distortion as their 3-1 H2H at Wimbledon but is another example of Djokovic's H2H record being hilariously skewed vs Fed by facing him at opportune times. The only place he has a H2H that was negatively affected by timing was the USO, but he made up for that with the matches in 2010 and 2015.
 

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
because it was some of the worst versions of Fed against some of the best versions of Djokovic?

Federer's AO levels, roughly ranked (pretty sure this is consensus on this site too, not just some particularly "out there" opinion of mine, but @abmk and @mike danny feel free to input):

Tier 1: 2004, 2007, 2005, 2009, 2010
Tier 2: 2006, 2012, 2017
Tier 3: 2011, 2008, 2018
Tier 4: 2014, 2016
Tier 5: 2013, 2015, 2019
Bin tier: the rest

Djokovic's AO levels, roughly ranked in the same way:

Tier 1: 2008, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2016, 2019
Tier 2: 2014, 2015, 2021
Tier 3: 2020, 2023
Tier 4: 2010, 2007
Tier 5: 2009, 2018
Bin tier: the rest

Tier 1 could probably be split up even further for both guys into "peak" levels and simply "prime" levels.

In green are the versions who won out of the 4 matches they played.

It's pretty obvious what's going on here.... their 3-1 H2H at the AO is not quite as much of a distortion as their 3-1 H2H at Wimbledon but is another example of Djokovic's H2H record being hilariously skewed vs Fed by facing him at opportune times. The only place he has a H2H that was negatively affected by timing was the USO, but he made up for that with the matches in 2010 and 2015.

Nice mental gymastic but Fed is not beating Djokovic at AO final or semi , Fed has lost to many lesser players in AO semis and finals and AO 2012 is not beating 2011 AO Djokovic. Even Djokovic 2021 has been that good.
 

Pheasant

Legend
Djokovic is a tougher match up for Nadal and he dealt with peak Djokovic in 2014 and you think 2014 version won't win against a player Nadal had match up advantage? Brilliant! I agree with 2015 and 2021 version.
Nadal's speed had declined significantly by 2014 while his serve was still lacking big time. Nadal finally beefed up that serve again by 2017, which made him unplayable on that surface again until injuries crushed his 2021 season.

Nadal's slump on his service games from 2014-2016, along with his reduced speed from the truckload of injuries that he sustained made him beatable. This was magnified big-time at Wimbledon. I was blown away at how often his serves were broken on grass until 2017. It was just as bad on clay. 2011-2013 Djoker would beat 2014 Nadal on clay while 2006-2007 Fed would be a coin-toss against 2014 Nadal on clay.

I'll check Nadal's hold percentages on clay. I highly suspect that 2014-2016 will be his worst years until his injury-ridden 2021 season came up. This will take a bit to research.

There's more to come on that later.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
because it was some of the worst versions of Fed against some of the best versions of Djokovic?

Federer's AO levels, roughly ranked (pretty sure this is consensus on this site too, not just some particularly "out there" opinion of mine, but @abmk and @mike danny feel free to input):

Tier 1: 2004, 2007, 2005, 2009, 2010
Tier 2: 2006, 2012, 2017
Tier 3: 2011, 2008, 2018
Tier 4: 2014, 2016
Tier 5: 2013, 2015, 2019
Bin tier: the rest

Djokovic's AO levels, roughly ranked in the same way:

Tier 1: 2008, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2016, 2019
Tier 2: 2014, 2015, 2021
Tier 3: 2020, 2023
Tier 4: 2010, 2007
Tier 5: 2009, 2018
Bin tier: the rest

Tier 1 could probably be split up even further for both guys into "peak" levels and simply "prime" levels.

In green are the versions who won out of the 4 matches they played.

It's pretty obvious what's going on here.... their 3-1 H2H at the AO is not quite as much of a distortion as their 3-1 H2H at Wimbledon but is another example of Djokovic's H2H record being hilariously skewed vs Fed by facing him at opportune times. The only place he has a H2H that was negatively affected by timing was the USO, but he made up for that with the matches in 2010 and 2015.

spot on about the AO skew

I'd probably go something like this about the tiers

Federer
tier1: AO 04/05/07
tier2: AO 06/09/10
(06 is above 12 and 17 surely and up there with 09 and 10. A little inconsistent at times, but was delivering 6-0,6-1,6-2 sets at will at AO 06)
tier3: AO 12/17/18
tier4: AO 08/11
(I mean given the courts he played on)
tier 5: AO 13/16 and maybe 14
leave the rest

Djokovic
tier1: AO 08/11/13/16 for just SF/F
tier2: AO 12/14/15/19 for SF/F
tier3: AO 20/21
tier 4: AO 23
tier 5: AO 09/10
leave the rest

2021 is not up with 14/15 for Djokovic. 5 with Fritz, struggled with Raonic/Z. Even for SF/F, he did play well, but again sustainbility in Bo5 is a question vs actual competition - won't be up there with his 14/15 sustainability.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
No version of Federer or Djokovic beats Nadal in a RG final.
Same goes for Federer or Nadal beating Djokovic in an AO final.

These guys are beasts in AO/RG finals.

pretty sure AO 04/05/07 (and AO 06/09/10) Fed would not only beat Djokovic of AO 20/21/23 finals, he'd beat him badly.
And nadal of RG 22 at the very least loses to prime Fed/Djokovic in the final.

The 2 are simply not even close to equal anyways (Nadal in RG final and Djokovic in AO final)
Fed at Wim > Djokovic at AO level wise actually. Djokovic hasn't faced actual good competition at AO after 2014 .
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Fed of AO 2006-07 definitely beats Djokovic of 2020, 21 and 23 finals and has even odds in 2008, 12 and 13

04 and 05 Fed at AO as well.
AO 04/05 fed was better than AO 06 fed anyways.
and even AO 09/10 fed would beat Djoko of AO 20/21/23 finals obviously.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
this is such an underrated slam of his career, it was his last real epic performance at a slam final......he never returned to that level again......i waited till the end of 2019 to see this nadal back but gave up after that......he still peaks for some battles but the effort is too much and he ends up getting injured after a tough match......
Nadal was many times better than that in RG 2017 final. Many times, it's not even close.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
Prime Federer would have a chance. I don't get the hype, 2014 was one of Nadal's worst years. He was very bad in the first set of the final, especially in the last game. Had cramps at the end of the fourth. And even in the second and third sets there were lots of ups and downs. Those who just show a good forehand winner obviously ignore all the unforced errors he had. But of course a big part of it was also due to the mental problems against Djokovic.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Are we including all the mental baggage Fed had vs Novak? :D

what mental baggage?
when Fed whopped Djokovic in AO 07, USO 07, USO 08, USO 09?
or beat him in RG 11?
or whopped him again in Wim 12?

We're talking about prime fed here, not 60+ old Fed against whom Djokovic could sit back in Bo5 against knowing he'd outlast him (while being whopped on by Stan in 14-16 in slams and by fed in Bo3 in 14-15, so don't give me the Djokovic was better in 14-16 than in 11-12 shtick...)
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Including the ones where Novak was a fetus who had barely any experience. I can play this game too.

only felt appropriate to include AO 07 in response to the mental baggage nonsense which never applied to prime fed vs djoko.
even past prime fed in 11-12 did better in slams vs djoko than prime nadal, especially in 11.
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Prime Federer would have a chance. I don't get the hype, 2014 was one of Nadal's worst years. He was very bad in the first set of the final, especially in the last game. Had cramps at the end of the fourth. And even in the second and third sets there were lots of ups and downs. Those who just show a good forehand winner obviously ignore all the unforced errors he had. But of course a big part of it was also due to the mental problems against Djokovic.
Nadal was robbed in the first set.
Afterwards, Nadal annihilated Joker with his serve and forehand.
:cool:
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
Nadal was robbed in the first set.
Afterwards, Nadal annihilated Joker with his serve and forehand.
:cool:
He was robbed at one point, but he also has himself to blame for making so many errors. He missed both break points in the last game with two horrible forehands.
 

Pheasant

Legend
Nadal's best service hold percentages on clay by calendar year:

Year……………….. hold%

2010………………. 91.2

2012………………. 89.2

2017………………. 88.2

2018………………. 87.6

2007………………. 87.4

2013………………. 87.3

2020………………. 87.1

2019………………. 86.8

2009………………. 84.7

2008………………. 84.4

2006………………. 84.2

2005………………. 84.0

2011………………. 83.4

2014………………. 83.1

2016………………. 82.4

2015………………. 81.1

2021………………. 80.7

2022………………. 79.4
 
spot on about the AO skew

I'd probably go something like this about the tiers

Federer
tier1: AO 04/05/07
tier2: AO 06/09/10
(06 is above 12 and 17 surely and up there with 09 and 10. A little inconsistent at times, but was delivering 6-0,6-1,6-2 sets at will at AO 06)
tier3: AO 12/17/18
tier4: AO 08/11
(I mean given the courts he played on)
tier 5: AO 13/16 and maybe 14
leave the rest

Djokovic
tier1: AO 08/11/13/16 for just SF/F
tier2: AO 12/14/15/19 for SF/F
tier3: AO 20/21
tier 4: AO 23
tier 5: AO 09/10
leave the rest

2021 is not up with 14/15 for Djokovic. 5 with Fritz, struggled with Raonic/Z. Even for SF/F, he did play well, but again sustainbility in Bo5 is a question vs actual competition - won't be up there with his 14/15 sustainability.
Fed AO 08/11 are better than 17/18 by a full tier and in the same tier as AO 12. Not only did we disagree in the past that AO 11 = AO 12, but a full tier is honestly ridiculous.

There is no way he needs 5 sets to beat either of Nishikori/Stan/Ned/Cilic with his 08/11 game. Maybe early in the tournament, but definitely not past the QF.

I also don't see why Novak's AO 23 is not in the same tier with AO 20 and AO 21. He pretty much cruised through and bar the Dimitrov match actually played well 6 rounds of the tournament.
 

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
Fed AO 08/11 are better than 17/18 by a full tier and in the same tier as AO 12. Not only did we disagree in the past that AO 11 = AO 12, but a full tier is honestly ridiculous.

There is no way he needs 5 sets to beat either of Nishikori/Stan/Ned/Cilic with his 08/11 game. Maybe early in the tournament, but definitely not past the QF.

I also don't see why Novak's AO 23 is not in the same tier with AO 20 and AO 21. He pretty much cruised through and bar the Dimitrov match actually played well 6 rounds of the tournament.
I wonder what did impress you so much about 2011 Federer in AO. He needed 5 sets to beat Simon in the second round. And it's not like his game dramatically improved after that.
 

Razer

Legend
Nice mental gymastic but Fed is not beating Djokovic at AO final or semi , Fed has lost to many lesser players in AO semis and finals and AO 2012 is not beating 2011 AO Djokovic. Even Djokovic 2021 has been that good.

These guys are experts at mental gymnastics and hypotheticals, but in the real world everyone knows that Federer's tier 1 in Australia is actually Djokovic's tier 2 in Australia, in Djokvic's tier 1 in australia he stands alone. Federer on the other has lost to Safin and Nadal, looked lacklustre in 06 and who knows if draws were swapped in 04 for Safin and Federer we could have seen more drama. Federer's tier 1 is not same as Djokovic's tier 1.
 
No version of Federer beats any version of Nadal with that useless 1 handed backhand on clay.

The weakest version of Nadal would beat the strongest version of Federer at RG.
2006/2007 Federer definitely beat 2015 Nadal for a start. If you restrict your statement to Nadal’s winning years peak Fed also beats 2022 Nadal imho.
 
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