Prime Federer beats 2014 RG version Of Rafa..

[Razer]

2006/2007 Federer definitely beat 2015 Nadal for a start. If you restrict your statement to Nadal’s winning years peak Fed also beats 2022 Nadal imho.

We never know if peak Fed can win over 2015 Nadal or not. Had Nadal beaten Djokovic then we would have seen him steamroll Stan and lift another french, the discussion would have been different for 2015. 2022 version could be defeated, but then we have not seen Federer beat Nadal in best of 5 on clay, so I have trouble imagining someone who never won to be a winner hypothetically.

 

[Kralingen]

Nice mental gymastic but Fed is not beating Djokovic at AO final or semi , Fed has lost to many lesser players in AO semis and finals and AO 2012 is not beating 2011 AO Djokovic. Even Djokovic 2021 has been that good.

OK if Federer had the same age gap that Djokovic did to him (6 years younger rather than 6 years older) he’d beat Djokovic there consistently

2005 Federer (23 years old) vs 2017 Djokovic (29 years old) and so on…

This would bring up matches like:
AO 07 Federer vs AO 19 Djokovic
AO 09 Federer vs AO 21 Djokovic
AO 12 Federer vs AO 24 Djokovic

Etc etc etc.

 

[Razer]

OK if Federer had the same age gap that Djokovic did to him (6 years younger rather than 6 years older) he’d beat Djokovic there consistently

2005 Federer (23 years old) vs 2017 Djokovic (29 years old) and so on…

If Federer had 6 years age advantage over Djokovic
If Federer was born handicapped then would he win even 1 slam?

Both these statement are equally imaginary and pointless to imagine, Federer we know is a product of being born in 1981, if you make him born in 1993 then it becomes a different Federer and nobody knows how he would mature.

 

[Kralingen]

If Federer had 6 years age advantage over Djokovic
If Federer was born handicapped then would he win even 1 slam?

Both these statement are equally imaginary and pointless to imagine, Federer we know is a product of being born in 1981, if you make him born in 1993 then it becomes a different Federer and nobody knows how he would mature.

Well considering Djokovic did have a 6 year age gap on in reality, and won the majority of matches vs Fed once Roger was in his 30s… I’d say it’s pretty relevant as far as hypotheticals go. We didn’t really get to see them play prime for prime/peak for peak. What we did see was a rivalry where the young player gradually overtook the older player, which has happened in essentially every ATG rivalry from the beginning of time.

 

[DjokoLand]

Not a hope. People need to understand that matchups play a big role. Federer just like Stan can beat a peak Nole at RG but not Nadal due to the top spin to the 1HBH.

This is why Nadal has never lost to a one hander there and will never lose to one. Federer beating Djokovic in 2011 and Thiem beating Djokovic in 2017 ruined the final. Look at 2017/2018 finals Nadal ate one handers for breakfast.

 

[Razer]

Well considering Djokovic did have a 6 year age gap on in reality, and won the majority of matches vs Fed once Roger was in his 30s… I’d say it’s pretty relevant as far as hypotheticals go. We didn’t really get to see them play prime for prime/peak for peak. What we did see was a rivalry where the young player gradually overtook the older player, which has happened in essentially every ATG rivalry from the beginning of time.

No bro,

It might be relevant for people who have nothing better to do in life than dwell over What IFs/Spilt milk, others who have regular jobs/daily thrills to seek don't dwell in hypotheticals like this, they accept what happened in the real life. In the real world Federer set the bar, Djokovic chased it, end of the story, there is no other parallel reality where Federer is born 12 years later to have a 6 years advantage and then chase.

Your destiny could be altered by things you do, but you are basically trying to alter the destinies of Roger's parents itself. Robert Federer was born in 1946, Lynette Federer was born in 1952... If you want Federer to be born in 1993 then there is no guarantee he would be having the same aptitude for Tennis if he is born, the same Federer never gets born 12 years later, it will be a different Federer, thats why hypotheticals do not make sense.

 

[Kralingen]

No bro,

It might be relevant for people who have nothing better to do in life than dwell over What IFs/Spilt milk, others who have regular jobs/daily thrills to seek don't dwell in hypotheticals like this, they accept what happened in the real life. In the real world Federer set the bar, Djokovic chased it, end of the story, there is no other parallel reality where Federer is born 12 years later to have a 6 years advantage and then chase.

Your destiny could be altered by things you do, but you are basically trying to alter the destinies of Roger's parents itself. Robert Federer was born in 1946, Lynette Federer was born in 1952... If you want Federer to be born in 1993 then there is no guarantee he would be having the same aptitude for Tennis if he is born, the same Federer never gets born 12 years later, it will be a different Federer, thats why hypotheticals do not make sense.

Well how about the world where they’re both the same age?

 

[Razer]

Well how about the world where they’re both the same age?

Again not possible.

As per string theory you could have various combinations of causality based on your actions since your birth, there could be parallel worlds where Federer did not choke vs Djoker, Federer has a double handed backhand, federer beats nadal at RG at least once, federer wins slams race etc etc .... all these combinations are possible

But you cannot have a parallel world where his parents meet 12 years later and he is born 12 years later or even 6 years later (for him to be of Novak's same age) exactly how he is now with aptitude for Tennis, this is 1 in a billion level talent and you are making it occur 6 years later, won't happen like that.

It is like asking, what if Dinosaurs existed today, how would we co-exist? Answer is this is not possible, if Dinosaurs existed today then we as a species would not exist at all because we dont evolve into this.
Thats why these hypotheticals dont make sense if you change birth years. Birth years have to be the same at all cost.

 

[Hitman]

I wonder what did impress you so much about 2011 Federer in AO. He needed 5 sets to beat Simon in the second round. And it's not like his game dramatically improved after that.

Djokovic needed five sets also to get past Simon in 2016 in which he also hit 100 UE....do you want a reminder to just how drastically Djokovic's game improved by the time he reached the semi finals?

Anyone can have one crappy match here and there.

 

[Phenomenal]

If prime Federer can't even beat 2015 Nadal Why is he even played tennis or how legend he is? He might not beat any other versions of Nadal maybe not even 2021 or 2022. I really doubt it but for sure(%99) he beats 2015 Nadal.
2015 Nadal on clay is the worst i saw and has no FH at all.

 

[Incognito]

People are really underrating Fed here. He was points away from beating unbeatable Rafa in Rome in 2006. You really think he would have any problem against a slow broken back 2014 Nadal? A 2015 Rafa who had lost to every tom, Dick and Harry on tour lol.

 

[DSH]

People are really underrating Fed here. He was points away from beating unbeatable Rafa in Rome in 2006. You really think he would have any problem against a slow broken back 2014 Nadal? A 2015 Rafa who had lost to every tom, Dick and Harry on tour lol.

Who played better, Nadal at Roland Garros 2014 or Federer at Wimbledon 2009?

 

[NeutralFan]

We never know if peak Fed can win over 2015 Nadal or not. Had Nadal beaten Djokovic then we would have seen him steamroll Stan and lift another french, the discussion would have been different for 2015. 2022 version could be defeated, but then we have not seen Federer beat Nadal in best of 5 on clay, so I have trouble imagining someone who never won to be a winner hypothetically.

2015 was beyond bad but before 2017 we have seen Nadal turning in to beast mode whenever he would see Fed on the other side of the net even though he would be in a bad form. May be one or sets and and Rafa would find form Good enough to trouble Fed?

 

[abmk]

Not a hope. People need to understand that matchups play a big role. Federer just like Stan can beat a peak Nole at RG but not Nadal due to the top spin to the 1HBH.

This is why Nadal has never lost to a one hander there and will never lose to one. Federer beating Djokovic in 2011 and Thiem beating Djokovic in 2017 ruined the final. Look at 2017/2018 finals Nadal ate one handers for breakfast.

firstly fed was the one who got closest to beating a prime level Nadal in Bo5 - Rome 06.
the 2 closest RG finals Nadal has had have been vs 1-handers - granted one of them a lefty-one hander Puerta in 05, other one being 4th set TB vs fed in RG 06

not saying it doesn't play a role, but don't exaggerate the 1-H thing.

also 2017 djokovic? really? nadal would've destroyed him. 4-6 games if they met in the semi and 3-4 games if they met in the final I'd say.
Nadal-djoko would've met in the semi in 17 anyways, not final.

 

[abmk]

Nope...that Nadal of RG 2014 was absolutely bossing from his forehand wing... Djokovic of 2014 was more of a threat than Prime Fed on clay to Rafa

not 2014 RG djokovic. 11/13/16 Djokovic you can say, but definitely not 2014 RG djokovic - who didn't play all that good in the final.

 

[BGod]

Considering 06-07 Fed put up a fight against 06-07 Nadal and should have won 2006 I take pretty well Fed of 06-07 against Nadal past 2010.

 

[abmk]

Fed AO 08/11 are better than 17/18 by a full tier and in the same tier as AO 12. Not only did we disagree in the past that AO 11 = AO 12, but a full tier is honestly ridiculous.

There is no way he needs 5 sets to beat either of Nishikori/Stan/Ned/Cilic with his 08/11 game. Maybe early in the tournament, but definitely not past the QF.

I also don't see why Novak's AO 23 is not in the same tier with AO 20 and AO 21. He pretty much cruised through and bar the Dimitrov match actually played well 6 rounds of the tournament.

I am considering level for tournament (with more emphasis on later rounds), but I don't completely throw away early round matches. especially if they go 10-8 in the 5th set vs Tipsy or like 5-setter vs Simon in AO 11+robredo meh match in AO 11. Good level in AO 11, but should've taken a set. A little lesser level in AO 08, but again should've taken a set.
Federer cruised through delpo, tomic, karlovic in AO 12.
So overall AO 12 is a tier above AO 08/11. even if AO 12 semi is not that much better than either AO 11 or AO 08 semi (it is clearly better, but not much better)

AO 12 would be a tier above AO 17/AO 18 if played on the same courts, but they weren't. That's why I mentioned the cavaet in brackets.
If AO 12 nadal had to play AO 17/18 fed on the faster courts in 17 or 18, he'd need a pretty competitive 4-setter to beat that fed.
Also Nishi was a 4R match, not QF-F match.
definitely can see nadal/stan of AO 17 going 5 vs fed of AO 08/11 given those courts and fed's inconsistency, 11 even more so.
Cilic hitting of course was aided by the faster court in AO 18, so not as sold on that one.

Maybe you can say tier 3.5 instead of tier 4 for fed in AO 08/11, but actual performance given those specific courts, I know I'm taking AO 17/18 over AO 08/11

I do think AO 23 djoko was declined from AO 20/AO 21 semi final level, but given the absolute lacklusture competition, he wasn't exposed as much. So you could say based on what actually happened, should be on the same tier.
And if Tpas had held his head, he would have taken the 2nd set TB. djoko played so mediocre in the TB, but tpas was like I'm gonna play the worst TB ever.

 

[Phenomenal]

Considering 06-07 Fed put up a fight against 06-07 Nadal and should have won 2006 I take pretty well Fed of 06-07 against Nadal past 2010.

Lol. How he does against 2012 Nadal let alone other ones. Nadal was 24 in 2010 you know right? Also 06 Nadal could be his weakest winning version(05-14)

 

[BauerAlmeida]

He beats 2011, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022.

2006-2007 Fed would beat the above IMO.

2017 Rafa was a freak incident. He was almost as good as his younger self, turned back time at least 10 years that whole tournament. I dont think Fed would beat that one.

2020 Nadal didn't drop a set in the whole tournament, including a bagel and a 6-2 against Djokovic, one of the only two players who beat him there. But he would drop THREE sets against Federer, a player to whom he has a 9-2 advantage on clay.

Crazy stuff.

 

[Hood_Man]

I don’t see it.

He'd have served out the match, approached the net, shook hands, given a tearful speech to the crowd, gone to the locker room, showered, attended a press conference, gone home, gone to bed, woken up the next morning, and he'd still end up losing to Nadal at the French.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

If prime Federer can't even beat 2015 Nadal Why is he even played tennis or how legend he is? He might not beat any other versions of Nadal maybe not even 2021 or 2022. I really doubt it but for sure(%99) he beats 2015 Nadal.
2015 Nadal on clay is the worst i saw and has no FH at all.

Federer can and very likely beats 2015 Nadal on RG. In 2022 he should have a strong chance (not in 2021) given FAA took him to 5, and he almost goes to 5 twice in the same event as Djokovic had SP in the 4th, and he didn't event play well. 2016 is hard to say as he withdrew and didn't lose or we didn't have the chance to see him against solid opposition. He should have a chance too as he wasn't playing very well.

Other than that I don't see it.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

I don’t see it.

2006/2007 Federer should be the favorite against 2015 Nadal.

2015dal was struggling and in 2006/2007 Federer managed to compete against a much stronger version.

 

[RS]

OK if Federer had the same age gap that Djokovic did to him (6 years younger rather than 6 years older) he’d beat Djokovic there consistently

2005 Federer (23 years old) vs 2017 Djokovic (29 years old) and so on…

This would bring up matches like:
AO 07 Federer vs AO 19 Djokovic
AO 09 Federer vs AO 21 Djokovic
AO 12 Federer vs AO 24 Djokovic

Etc etc etc.

I bet you some Djokovic fans would give him these

 

[jl809]

These guys are experts at mental gymnastics and hypotheticals, but in the real world everyone knows that Federer's tier 1 in Australia is actually Djokovic's tier 2 in Australia, in Djokvic's tier 1 in australia he stands alone. Federer on the other has lost to Safin and Nadal, looked lacklustre in 06 and who knows if draws were swapped in 04 for Safin and Federer we could have seen more drama. Federer's tier 1 is not same as Djokovic's tier 1.

How is it bad that he lost to Safin and Nadal lol? Those are considered 2 of the highest quality matches on HC of this century by pretty much everyone with eyes and a brain. Plus Djoker nearly lost to Nadal in 2012 anyway.

The only mental gymnasts here are people like you and the ones acting like Fed didn’t have a great peak at the AO

 

[StrongRule]

Lol. How he does against 2012 Nadal let alone other ones. Nadal was 24 in 2010 you know right? Also 06 Nadal could be his weakest winning version(05-14)

Yeah, it's ridiculous to claim Federer would have beaten 2012 or even 2013 Nadal. These versions were way better than 2014.

 

[StrongRule]

Federer can and very likely beats 2015 Nadal on RG. In 2022 he should have a strong chance (not in 2021) given FAA took him to 5, and he almost goes to 5 twice in the same event as Djokovic had SP in the 4th, and he didn't event play well. 2016 is hard to say as he withdrew and didn't lose or we didn't have the chance to see him against solid opposition. He should have a chance too as he wasn't playing very well.

Other than that I don't see it.

Lmao.

 

[Sampras-Bruguera 1993]

Fed doesn’t beat Rafa at any time at RG. Hell I would give Pete a better chance beating Rafa at RF. As he can just go for broke on serve like isner did in 2011 and won’t let his backhand get picked on all match

 

[StrongRule]

People are really underrating Fed here. He was points away from beating unbeatable Rafa in Rome in 2006. You really think he would have any problem against a slow broken back 2014 Nadal? A 2015 Rafa who had lost to every tom, Dick and Harry on tour lol.

And massively overrating Djokovic. It's easy to forget he was 6-0 down against Nadal in RG at some point, winning just 4 sets in these matches. Him being lucky to face much worse versions of Nadal (some of them in DO conditions, which is not RG anyway) doesn't make him better than Federer, who had to face the best versions of Nadal so many times, and also won 4 sets in 6 matches.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

And massively overrating Djokovic. It's easy to forget he was 6-0 down against Nadal in RG at some point, winning just 4 sets in these matches. Him being lucky to face much worse versions of Nadal (some of them in DO conditions, which is not RG anyway) doesn't make him better than Federer, who had to face the best versions of Nadal so many times, and also won 4 sets in 6 matches.

The fact you talk about this "DO" nonsense shows you are just a boring troll, but well, I'll take the bait.


I'm sure what Djokovic did in 2006 when he was in high school and in 2007 when he had been in the TOP 10 in a couple of months is very relevant.

Djokovic faced a peak Nadal in 2012 and in 2008, two of his best 3 years in RG. Federer didnt face a stronger Nadal on average than Djokovic did. Since the 2008 beatdown he faced him twice only, in 2011 and 2019, none of them particularly among the strongest version of Nadal. Neither was when he faced him in 2005. He faced the strongest version of Nadal in 2008, but so did Djokovic, and he did better, and a very strong version in 2007, but still, there are a few better versions (2008, 2010, 2012 and 2017).

Lmao.

Oh, I see, pretending Nadal was mug in 2021 to diminish Djokovic's win. Boring and predictable.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

2020 Nadal didn't drop a set in the whole tournament, including a bagel and a 6-2 against Djokovic, one of the only two players who beat him there. But he would drop THREE sets against Federer, a player to whom he has a 9-2 advantage on clay.

Crazy stuff.

9-2? Nadal is actually 14-2 on Clay against Fed. Or do you restrict it to a certain time period where Fed was prime/peak?

 

[jl809]

Oh, I see, pretending Nadal was mug in 2021 to diminish Djokovic's win. Boring and predictable.

How was Nadal any worse at RG in 2022 than 2021 lol? Because he had that one meh match vs FAA?

 

[Pheasant]

Of course there are instances where an ATG on a surface can lose to a very good player at some point. As I said, 2007-08 Nadal likely beats 12 versions of Federer at Wimbledon. Flipping this around, I think 2006-2007 Federer only beats 2-3 versions of Nadal at the FO.

How is any of this shocking? If Nadal, the same guy that was being dumped at Wimbledon in his 20s by multiple guys ranked outside the top-50(by multiple breaks of his serve nonetheless) can beat 12 versions of Fed at that event, then why can’t peak Fed win 2-3 matches vs a declined and injured Nadal?

Yeah, I get it. Peak Fed is never beating peak Nadal at RG. But the idea that peak Fed has no chance against crappy versions of Nadal fails the sniff test badly.

I posted Nadal’s service hold percentage on clay for calendar years. Nadal’s 2014 clay season ranked near the very bottom. And it wasn’t just clay where he was having a tough time holding serve that year. He played 5 grass matches against crappy returners. All 5 of those opponents were ranked outside the top 50. And yet, Nadal was broken 9 times while facing a whopping 33 break points in those 5 matches. Nadal’s serving was at the low point of his career at that point and his movement was compromised from all of those injuries. Luckily for him, he beefed up his serve big-time in 2017, which made him a beast again.

Despite all of that, I still give peak Fed only a 50/50 vs 2014 Nadal.

 

[abmk]

Oh, I see, pretending Nadal was mug in 2021 to diminish Djokovic's win. Boring and predictable.

no, because you are pretending Nadal of RG 22 was worse than Nadal of RG 21.
wake up

 

[Razer]

How is it bad that he lost to Safin and Nadal lol? Those are considered 2 of the highest quality matches on HC of this century by pretty much everyone with eyes and a brain. Plus Djoker nearly lost to Nadal in 2012 anyway.

The only mental gymnasts here are people like you and the ones acting like Fed didn’t have a great peak at the AO

Nearly Lost to Nadal in 2012 ? Your clay god is lucky Murray softened Novak in the Semi Final, otherwise the final would have been a routine 1 sided affair.

Federer did not have a peak on par with Novak at the AO, this is reality. His 2007 version (best ever version) would also lose to 31.5 year old version of 2019 Djokovic.

Federer has a goat level peak in USA in those windy outdoor conditions, not in Australia...... The gymnastics won't help, the numbers tell the true story.

 

[jl809]

Nearly Lost to Nadal in 2012 ? Your clay god is lucky Murray softened Novak in the Semi Final, otherwise the final would have been a routine affair.

Federer did not have a peak on par with Novak at the AO, this is reality. His 2007 version (best ever version) would also lose to 31.5 year old version of 2019 Djokovic.

Federer has a goat level peak in USA in those windy outdoor conditions, not in Australia...... The gymnastics won't help, the numbers tell the true story.

1) the grunter is not MY clay god, thank you v much

2) you talk about gymnastics and then just randomly assert 2019 Djoker would beat 2007 Fed? What is this based on lol?

 

[BauerAlmeida]

9-2? Nadal is actually 14-2 on Clay against Fed. Or do you restrict it to a certain time period where Fed was prime/peak?

Ah, my bad. I remember the two Fed wins (Hamburg 2007, Madrid 2009) but I wasn't sure how many times Nadal had won exactly. Thought it was 9 for some reason.

no, because you are pretending Nadal of RG 22 was worse than Nadal of RG 21.
wake up

And why would I pretend that? He beat Djokovic anyway in 2022 despite the fact he wasn't playing well.

How was Nadal any worse at RG in 2022 than 2021 lol? Because he had that one meh match vs FAA?

I'm talking about his overall level. He was also one point away from going to 5 against a poor Djokovic and was struggling vs Zverev. It's not crazy at all he could have lost that match if not for Zverev's injury. The 2nd set could have gone either way and in the 1st Zverev chocked it.

He only won convincingly vs Ruud, but well, 2021 RG would have won convincingly vs Ruud too. 99.99% versions of Nadal on clay beat Ruud without trouble.

 

[Third Serve]

Federer can and very likely beats 2015 Nadal on RG. In 2022 he should have a strong chance (not in 2021) given FAA took him to 5, and he almost goes to 5 twice in the same event as Djokovic had SP in the 4th, and he didn't event play well. 2016 is hard to say as he withdrew and didn't lose or we didn't have the chance to see him against solid opposition. He should have a chance too as he wasn't playing very well.

Other than that I don't see it.

Why not 2021? Nadal was about the same level both years in 2021 and 2022 (marginally better in 2022 even). I think prime Fed definitely beats 2021 Nadal on clay… it’s the kind of thing that seems like a really easy call to me.

 

[abmk]

Ah, my bad. I remember the two Fed wins (Hamburg 2007, Madrid 2009) but I wasn't sure how many times Nadal had won exactly. Thought it was 9 for some reason.



And why would I pretend that? He beat Djokovic anyway in 2022 despite the fact he wasn't playing well.



I'm talking about his overall level. He was also one point away from going to 5 against a poor Djokovic and was struggling vs Zverev. It's not crazy at all he could have lost that match if not for Zverev's injury. The 2nd set could have gone either way and in the 1st Zverev chocked it.

He only won convincingly vs Ruud, but well, 2021 RG would have won convincingly vs Ruud too. 99.99% versions of Nadal on clay beat Ruud without trouble.

still RG 2022 was less worse than RG 21 from Nadal - especially in terms of level he could summon when needed (top level). So saying fed could beat RG 22 nadal, but not RG 21 nadal doesn't compute.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

still RG 2022 was less worse than RG 21 from Nadal - especially in terms of level he could summon when needed (top level). So saying fed could beat RG 22 nadal, but not RG 21 nadal doesn't compute.

Nadal played a very solid tournament in 2021 until the SF, bageling Sinner and Schwartzman. In the first set he was destroying Djokovic too. If he wins the 3rd he likely wraps it up in 4 and in the final Tsitsipas had no chance. In 2022 he was struggling against FAA, Zverev and a much worse Djokovic.

I'm not saying there was a stratospheric difference but he clearly played at a higher level in 2021. I'm not saying Federer doesn't have a chance at all in 2021 (he could have had a chance against a much stronger version in 2007 with better BP conversion), but he definitely has a better chance in 2022.

 

[RS]

Lol the lack of respect for Federer. If Fed can't even beat 2015 Nadal then Nadal's clay competition for the first half of his career was really poor...

I think he would anyway.

 

[StrongRule]

Nadal played a very solid tournament in 2021 until the SF, bageling Sinner and Schwartzman. In the first set he was destroying Djokovic too. If he wins the 3rd he likely wraps it up in 4 and in the final Tsitsipas had no chance. In 2022 he was struggling against FAA, Zverev and a much worse Djokovic.

I'm not saying there was a stratospheric difference but he clearly played at a higher level in 2021. I'm not saying Federer doesn't have a chance at all in 2021 (he could have had a chance against a much stronger version in 2007 with better BP conversion), but he definitely has a better chance in 2022.

So 2021 Nadal deserves extra points for what would have happened IF he didn't mug it up in the third set with double faults and other unforced errors in key moments? While 2022 doesn't get credit for ACTUALLY winning these points? You are making a joke out of yourself here. And at the same time you claim Djokovic was much worse in 2022, just because he lost.

 

[InsideOut900]

I am considering level for tournament (with more emphasis on later rounds), but I don't completely throw away early round matches. especially if they go 10-8 in the 5th set vs Tipsy or like 5-setter vs Simon in AO 11+robredo meh match in AO 11. Good level in AO 11, but should've taken a set. A little lesser level in AO 08, but again should've taken a set.

I can understand inferring some things in regards to what X version of Fed would do in a different year, but this is straight up inconsistent based on actual tournament play.

2017 Fed started slow in the first 2 rounds and also went 5 with Nishi. Was going 5 with Nishi in a more advanced round better than going 5 with Tipsarevic, who also played very well for his standards, perhaps the best he has played in a big match? Ditto for the Simon match, he went 5, but won 6-2 6-3 6-3 in those sets.

Considering you see AO 06 in the same tier as AO 09 and AO 10, even though it's literally the same logic applied here of dropping sets, but never being close to losing, I don't see why AO 11 should be ranked below.

The primary driver here is how he was actually going toe to toe with the best of Novak in his own backyard and only really got straight setted because of the BH inconsistency and Novak raising his level in key moments in both the 1st and 2nd set.

You can expect AO 17/AO 18 Fed to look close to what happened in AO 16 semi on those courts. The age difference, which brings clear differences in overall defence and shot tolerance and FH quality in neutral position cannot be bridged by playing some first strike tennis in faster conditions. And it's not like 2011 Fed wouldn't benefit from the faster courts being closer to his prime.

Or to put it in short, 2017 Fed would do worse dropped in the 2011 field and court, while 2011 Fed would do better dropped in the 2017 field and conditions. Ditto for 2008.

definitely can see nadal/stan of AO 17 going 5 vs fed of AO 08/11 given those courts and fed's inconsistency, 11 even more so.
Cilic hitting of course was aided by the faster court in AO 18, so not as sold on that one.

We can safely disagree here. He crushed Stan in 2011 like it was nothing and while 2017 Stan was clearly better, he was nowhere near his 2013/2014 peak. We know how their match-up goes on HCs. 4 sets for 2008/2011 Fed most likely in both slow and fast conditions.

Same against Ned and Cilic.Those thin margins he lost against peak Novak would turn into way bigger ones against these two. Even the 2nd set of AO 08 semi and 3rd of AO 11 semi were just better than the sets he dropped to Nishi/Stan/Nadal/Cilic and even some of the sets he won in 2017/2018

 

[abmk]

Nadal played a very solid tournament in 2021 until the SF, bageling Sinner and Schwartzman. In the first set he was destroying Djokovic too. If he wins the 3rd he likely wraps it up in 4 and in the final Tsitsipas had no chance. In 2022 he was struggling against FAA, Zverev and a much worse Djokovic.

I'm not saying there was a stratospheric difference but he clearly played at a higher level in 2021. I'm not saying Federer doesn't have a chance at all in 2021 (he could have had a chance against a much stronger version in 2007 with better BP conversion), but he definitely has a better chance in 2022.

This is some Djoko land fantasy stuff.
Nadal in RG 22 QF/F > Nadal in RG 21 SF. where it mattered the most, he raised his level higher in 22 than in 21 by some margin.
nadal was much worse in RG 21 SF than in RG 22 QF vs djoko.

 

[abmk]

We can safely disagree here. He crushed Stan in 2011 like it was nothing and while 2017 Stan was clearly better, he was nowhere near his 2013/2014 peak. We know how their match-up goes on HCs. 4 sets for 2008/2011 Fed most likely in both slow and fast conditions.

Same against Ned and Cilic.Those thin margins he lost against peak Novak would turn into way bigger ones against these two. Even the 2nd set of AO 08 semi and 3rd of AO 11 semi were just better than the sets he dropped to Nishi/Stan/Nadal/Cilic and even some of the sets he won in 2017/2018

no way. stan in AO 17 was much closer to AO 13/14/15 level (minus semi) than in AO 11 QF. he played poorly vs fed in AO 11.

how on earth is going a double break down vs djokovic in 2nd set of AO 08 semi better than any of the sets he won vs nishi/stan/nadal/cilic in AO 17/18?

 

[BauerAlmeida]

This is some Djoko land fantasy stuff.
Nadal in RG 22 QF/F > Nadal in RG 21 SF. where it mattered the most, he raised his level higher in 22 than in 21 by some margin.
nadal was much worse in RG 21 SF than in RG 22 QF vs djoko.

The only reason you say "he raised his level" is because he won one year and didn't the other one.

If he wins the SP in 2021 RG, he wins the match/tournament.
If he loses the SP in RG 2022 maybe he loses the fifth, thus losing the tournament.

They are fine margins separating wins and defeats. But there is a reason the RG 2021 was considered a classic (their most remembered match there after RG 2013) and the RG 2022 match is largely forgotten.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

So 2021 Nadal deserves extra points for what would have happened IF he didn't mug it up in the third set with double faults and other unforced errors in key moments? While 2022 doesn't get credit for ACTUALLY winning these points? You are making a joke out of yourself here. And at the same time you claim Djokovic was much worse in 2022, just because he lost.

The RG 2021 was a classic, the RG 2022 was forgotten. Why? Because both played much better in 2021.

This is a poll about best match of the 2020s:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1551318212532371461

Tons of mentions for RG 2021, zero for RG 2022. EVERYONE at the time, while it was happening, was mentioning what an epic match it was. Even people who dislike Djokovic like Ben Rothenberg say it was an incredible match.

 

[SonnyT]

Nadal owned Federer from 2004 to 2014. So 'prime' Fed must be either younger than 23, or older than 33.

 

[abmk]

The only reason you say "he raised his level" is because he won one year and didn't the other one.

If he wins the SP in 2021 RG, he wins the match/tournament.
If he loses the SP in RG 2022 maybe he loses the fifth, thus losing the tournament.

They are fine margins separating wins and defeats. But there is a reason the RG 2021 was considered a classic (their most remembered match there after RG 2013) and the RG 2022 match is largely forgotten.

nadal played very well in sets 1 & 3 in RG 22 QF, fought to win 4th set
was up 3-0 in the 2nd set
he was dominating djokovic in the 1st set and 2nd set till then
dominated djokovic in the 3rd set as well

if he had held his level, he could've won in straights

in RG 21 SF, he played very well in 1st set, fought in 3rd set. that's it, played a horrible 4th set and a below par 2nd set
its not even close.

RG 21 is not a classic. only in the land of Djoko fans.
its remembered more than RG 22 purely because Nadal lost and the long 3rd set.

sorry, but your post is just awful.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Considering 06-07 Fed put up a fight against 06-07 Nadal and should have won 2006 I take pretty well Fed of 06-07 against Nadal past 2010.

No player beats Nadal in Roland Garros in 2012 or 2017. Saying "past 2010" as if he stopped winning when most of his titles came after is ridiculous.

 

[Phenomenal]

Federer can and very likely beats 2015 Nadal on RG. In 2022 he should have a strong chance (not in 2021) given FAA took him to 5, and he almost goes to 5 twice in the same event as Djokovic had SP in the 4th, and he didn't event play well. 2016 is hard to say as he withdrew and didn't lose or we didn't have the chance to see him against solid opposition. He should have a chance too as he wasn't playing very well.

Other than that I don't see it.

I didn't discuss other matches partly agree other than 2021 2022 comparison. Some people non Nadal fans seems to forget or ignore how well he played in final against Ruud since he was up against Ruud.

Zverev match was completely different conditions and he was leading still. Against FAA Rafa played badly first set but in 4th FAA played well to take it to fifth. Nadal was great in fifth. Also i believe conditions does really matter. Nadal didn't played QF and Semi usual RG conditions. 2021-2022 might be similiar. Djokovic down 0-2 twice but he beat Nadal and won RG so it happens and both matches when he was down it was usual day match.