Prime Federer beats 2014 RG version Of Rafa..

jl809

Legend
The RG 2021 was a classic, the RG 2022 was forgotten. Why? Because both played much better in 2021.

This is a poll about best match of the 2020s:
Tons of mentions for RG 2021, zero for RG 2022. EVERYONE at the time, while it was happening, was mentioning what an epic match it was. Even people who dislike Djokovic like Ben Rothenberg say it was an incredible match.
What did Nadal actually do better in 2021? Name a shot he did better.

For example, I can help by naming a shot he did worse in 2021, which is the backhand, which made 4 winners to 28 UEs. Literally his worst BH performance ever at RG in a SF or F

Perhaps the serve? Where Nadal hit a lower first serve % in 2021 than 2022 and made 8 double faults in 2021?

The reason 2021 is voted as epic (probably by Djokovic fans) is because the only way they can have an epic match at RG since 2014 is for Nadal to be off it and Djokovic to be really on it
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
The RG 2021 was a classic, the RG 2022 was forgotten. Why? Because both played much better in 2021.

This is a poll about best match of the 2020s:
Tons of mentions for RG 2021, zero for RG 2022. EVERYONE at the time, while it was happening, was mentioning what an epic match it was. Even people who dislike Djokovic like Ben Rothenberg say it was an incredible match.
No, just because lots of people like to see Nadal finally losing in a clay slam, even if it's DO. Don't act like you don't know it. For the same reason, there is lots of hype about Alcaraz beating Djokovic in Wimbledon final, though it wasn't a great match.

The way some Djokovic fans are cherry picking stats is honestly a joke. Saying Nadal played much better in 2021 than 2022 is trolling. Djokovic's level was closer in both years because at least he never physically collapsed, while Nadal was totally dead in the fourth set in 2021.
 
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StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
What did Nadal actually do better in 2021? Name a shot he did better.

For example, I can help by naming a shot he did worse in 2021, which is the backhand, which made 4 winners to 28 UEs. Literally his worst BH performance ever at RG in a SF or F

Perhaps the serve? Where Nadal hit a lower first serve % in 2021 than 2022 and made 8 double faults in 2021?

The reason 2021 is voted as epic (probably by Djokovic fans) is because the only way they can have an epic match at RG since 2014 is for Nadal to be off it and Djokovic to be really on it
Wow, I didn't know it was THAT terrible. And this troll tries to convince us that was an epic performance by Nadal.
 

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
It’s pretty bizarre to me that somehow 2018-20 Nadal are unimpeachable to question on here

If you consider how many BPs Federer had in 06/07 for example and how many ridiculous road runner gets Nadal had to make to stay in the point vs peak Fed back then, why exactly is 2018-20 with heavily declined speed totally out of reach for Federer?

Seeing how much success geriatric Fed had against Nadal in those years off clay…
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
It’s pretty bizarre to me that somehow 2018-20 Nadal are unimpeachable to question on here

If you consider how many BPs Federer had in 06/07 for example and how many ridiculous road runner gets Nadal had to make to stay in the point vs peak Fed back then, why exactly is 2018-20 with heavily declined speed totally out of reach for Federer?

Seeing how much success geriatric Fed had against Nadal in those years off clay…

its not unimpeachable at all.
peak fed gets atleast 1 out of 3 matches vs 18-20 RG nadal.
 

Phenomenal

Hall of Fame
What did Nadal actually do better in 2021? Name a shot he did better.

For example, I can help by naming a shot he did worse in 2021, which is the backhand, which made 4 winners to 28 UEs. Literally his worst BH performance ever at RG in a SF or F

Perhaps the serve? Where Nadal hit a lower first serve % in 2021 than 2022 and made 8 double faults in 2021?

The reason 2021 is voted as epic (probably by Djokovic fans) is because the only way they can have an epic match at RG since 2014 is for Nadal to be off it and Djokovic to be really on it
Nadal definitely played better against Djokovic in 22 than 21. Overall in RG idk but against Djokovic he was much better in 22 specially due to the 4th set. Djokovic was probably bit worse but in RG Nadal's level is more important since his best level is higher.

2021 match had the best(entertaining) set and by far the worst set of both matches though. Nadal had so many double faults i remember. I still think Nadal would have won had they played day match. But it is what it is. Djokovic played great and deserved...
 

jl809

Legend
It’s pretty bizarre to me that somehow 2018-20 Nadal are unimpeachable to question on here

If you consider how many BPs Federer had in 06/07 for example and how many ridiculous road runner gets Nadal had to make to stay in the point vs peak Fed back then, why exactly is 2018-20 with heavily declined speed totally out of reach for Federer?

Seeing how much success geriatric Fed had against Nadal in those years off clay…
This is a good point. I think the consensus is that it definitely goes to 5 as clay is the place where the footspeed matters the least, but I can see the argument for Fed winning. 19 Nadal pulled out some absolutely insane passing shots to beat Fed, so even with reduced footspeed he’d still have that to fall back on. Other than that… mm.

2020 Nadal was just a rock, basically didn’t UE at all for 2 sets on cold clay. So I don’t give Fed much hope there. He could get to 5 but not the W imo.
 

JaxTeller

Professional
Of course there are instances where an ATG on a surface can lose to a very good player at some point. As I said, 2007-08 Nadal likely beats 12 versions of Federer at Wimbledon. Flipping this around, I think 2006-2007 Federer only beats 2-3 versions of Nadal at the FO.

How is any of this shocking? If Nadal, the same guy that was being dumped at Wimbledon in his 20s by multiple guys ranked outside the top-50(by multiple breaks of his serve nonetheless) can beat 12 versions of Fed at that event, then why can’t peak Fed win 2-3 matches vs a declined and injured Nadal?

Yeah, I get it. Peak Fed is never beating peak Nadal at RG. But the idea that peak Fed has no chance against crappy versions of Nadal fails the sniff test badly.

I posted Nadal’s service hold percentage on clay for calendar years. Nadal’s 2014 clay season ranked near the very bottom. And it wasn’t just clay where he was having a tough time holding serve that year. He played 5 grass matches against crappy returners. All 5 of those opponents were ranked outside the top 50. And yet, Nadal was broken 9 times while facing a whopping 33 break points in those 5 matches. Nadal’s serving was at the low point of his career at that point and his movement was compromised from all of those injuries. Luckily for him, he beefed up his serve big-time in 2017, which made him a beast again.

Despite all of that, I still give peak Fed only a 50/50 vs 2014 Nadal.
Spot on man..
People really think Federer was some Medvedev level player on clay lmao..
Peak Federer= peak Djokovic on clay.. Federer has weak clay resume coz of the peak nadal
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I can understand inferring some things in regards to what X version of Fed would do in a different year, but this is straight up inconsistent based on actual tournament play.

2017 Fed started slow in the first 2 rounds and also went 5 with Nishi. Was going 5 with Nishi in a more advanced round better than going 5 with Tipsarevic, who also played very well for his standards, perhaps the best he has played in a big match? Ditto for the Simon match, he went 5, but won 6-2 6-3 6-3 in those sets.
yes, considering fed actually played well after being down 1-5(?) in the 1st set vs Nishi. it was the first signs of his FH being sustained at 2012 level (prime-ish) in a Bo5 vs a good baseliner.
should've broken in the 4th set, but Nishi miraculously fought and held on. just one loose game from fed after that.
But he won the 5th comfortably. Was up 2 sets to one here vs Nishi.

vs tipsy, fed was down 2 sets to one and went 10-8 in the 5th set. was serving well, but ground game wasn't good.

Considering you see AO 06 in the same tier as AO 09 and AO 10, even though it's literally the same logic applied here of dropping sets, but never being close to losing, I don't see why AO 11 should be ranked below.
again, you need to look at level in general and circumstances, not just scores or sets dropped.
fed lost that hitting zip that he had from YEC 10, doha 11, AO 11 1st round in the match when he got into the match vs simon - starting from like ending of 2nd set (was playing very well for set and half) Even the 5th set that fed won, he was a little shaky.
didn't play that well vs Robredo either. did play well vs Wawa, but that was more slicing&dicing, net play etc.
The primary driver here is how he was actually going toe to toe with the best of Novak in his own backyard and only really got straight setted because of the BH inconsistency and Novak raising his level in key moments in both the 1st and 2nd set.
or maybe because fed was up 5-2 in 2nd set should've won the set or atleast pushed it a TB.
not really going toe to toe if you play a below par TB after being even in 1st set AND then do what he did in the 2nd set.

also it wasn't yet Novak's backyard back then.
You can expect AO 17/AO 18 Fed to look close to what happened in AO 16 semi on those courts. The age difference, which brings clear differences in overall defence and shot tolerance and FH quality in neutral position cannot be bridged by playing some first strike tennis in faster conditions. And it's not like 2011 Fed wouldn't benefit from the faster courts being closer to his prime. Or to put it in short, 2017 Fed would do worse dropped in the 2011 field and court, while 2011 Fed would do better dropped in the 2017 field and conditions. Ditto for 2008.
but that's not what I was talking about.
I'm saying 2017 fed did better on the courts he played on in AO 17 than 11 fed in the courts in AO 11.

and obviously there is some bridging in faster conditions for AO 17/18. no way does fed look as bad as he did in 1st 2 sets of AO 16 semi. he was pretty unsharp and bad for those 45-50 mins - worse than any stage in 3R+ of AO 17/18
 
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but that's not what I was talking about.
I'm saying 2017 fed did better on the courts he played on in AO 17 than 11 fed in the courts in AO 11
I mean he dropped 7 sets all tournament and none of those players were at they peak.

Ned/Stan were clearly worse than 2014. Nishi was sort of playing close to his best for what you would expect, but wasn't at his USO 14 level.

So in terms of actual on court performance I don't see as better in any round (except maybe the Berdych beatdown in 2017), so we can disagree here unless you have any other argument.

But if we add the scenario where they swap places on top of the actual on court performance, which wasn't markebly better in 2017/2018, I still thing the younger Fed gets the nod here.

and obviously there is some bridging in faster conditions for AO 17/18. no way does fed look as bad as he did in 1st 2 sets of AO 16 semi. he was pretty unsharp and bad for those 45-50 mins - worse than any stage in 3R+ of AO 17/18
Remember, he played just as well if not better between R1 and SF in 2016 as he did in 2017/2018. And in less favourable conditions too.

You cannot underestimate the mental impact facing even someone like 2012-2013 Murray, 2014 Nadal or Stan, much less 2008/2011/2016 Novak or 2012 Nadal.

That is why 2008/2011 Fed gets the bonus points for me, he had some looser performanes early on, but ultimately the older Fed would have a harder time against the opponents that matter. At least from how I see it.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I mean he dropped 7 sets all tournament and none of those players were at they peak.

Ned/Stan were clearly worse than 2014. Nishi was sort of playing close to his best for what you would expect, but wasn't at his USO 14 level.

So in terms of actual on court performance I don't see as better in any round (except maybe the Berdych beatdown in 2017), so we can disagree here unless you have any other argument.

But if we add the scenario where they swap places on top of the actual on court performance, which wasn't markebly better in 2017/2018, I still thing the younger Fed gets the nod here.
vs 3R berdych was better
arguably 4R vs nishi compared to robredo performance (which I only watched live tbh and don't remember that well. obviously nishi was considerably better than robredo)
SF vs Wawa in 17 better than SF vs djoko in 11 (given the respective courts)


Remember, he played just as well if not better between R1 and SF in 2016 as he did in 2017/2018. And in less favourable conditions too.

You cannot underestimate the mental impact facing even someone like 2012-2013 Murray, 2014 Nadal or Stan, much less 2008/2011/2016 Novak or 2012 Nadal.

That is why 2008/2011 Fed gets the bonus points for me, he had some looser performanes early on, but ultimately the older Fed would have a harder time against the opponents that matter. At least from how I see it.
fed just came out flat vs djoko in AO 16 and didn't recover in time - it happened to coincide with djoko's best for him unfortunately. He recovered in time vs Nishi in AO 17 for a counter-example after a flat start for like 5 games or so...

you talk about mental impact. yet the point is fed couldn't get that one set vs djoko in AO 08/AO 11.
and when he did get it vs Nadal in AO 12 and it was a pretty competitive 4-setter (with sets 3 and 4 being pretty close), you are not putting it clearly above AO 08/11 semi performances.

and then the mental aspect of beating nadal after nearly 10 years in a slam - that from a break down in the 5th set. why is that being under-rated by you?
 
you talk about mental impact. yet the point is fed couldn't get that one set vs djoko in AO 08/AO 11.
Because that 1 set is completely irrelevant since it has no barring on the end result or general dynamic of the match. He got his 1 set in 2016, but it didn't make his performance any better compared to 2008/2011 semis.

It's like saying Djoko was better in the 2008 USO semi compared to 2007 F or 2009 semi. It is irrelevant if he was or wasn't a bit better, the end result is that he lost in roughly the same manner. If winning that 2nd set in the 2008 semi resulted in him riding some momentum and taking it to 5 it would be a better performance.

So whether 2012/2017/2018 Fed would claim that 1 set against 2008/2011 Djoko, it's hardly relevant for the general feel of the end result, it's just a more cosmetic performance.
and when he did get it vs Nadal in AO 12 and it was a pretty competitive 4-setter (with sets 3 and 4 being pretty close), you are not putting it clearly above AO 08/11 semi performances.
Because 2012 Nadal is an inferior player to 2008/2011 Djoko, who is more in line with 2009 Nadal for one, because he never dipped as low as the 2nd set in that match and because sets 3 and 4 were no better than any he played in 2008/2011 except maybe the 2nd in 2008 where he nearly wrestled the double break lead.
and then the mental aspect of beating nadal after nearly 10 years in a slam - that from a break down in the 5th set. why is that being under-rated by you?
Raising his level in the 5th set of that match was impressive, no doubt.

But can we also agree that the match-up changed quite a bit in Fed's favour after 2014 with Nadal's decline and changing in playstyle and that played a quite significant role in the grand scheme?
 

BorgTheGOAT

Legend
Nearly Lost to Nadal in 2012 ? Your clay god is lucky Murray softened Novak in the Semi Final, otherwise the final would have been a routine 1 sided affair.

Federer did not have a peak on par with Novak at the AO, this is reality. His 2007 version (best ever version) would also lose to 31.5 year old version of 2019 Djokovic.

Federer has a goat level peak in USA in those windy outdoor conditions, not in Australia...... The gymnastics won't help, the numbers tell the true story.
The 2012 final would have been tight anyways. Stamina was not the issue here, Djokovic was at the peak of his fitness, otherwise he wouldn’t have won this 6 hours match. On top, Nadal won the first set, where both were still fresh. That being said: Novak could/should have ended it in four. But same applies for Nadal in the FO SF 2013, and this match is also celebrated by Novak fans on how close he can play peak Nadal.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Because that 1 set is completely irrelevant since it has no barring on the end result or general dynamic of the match. He got his 1 set in 2016, but it didn't make his performance any better compared to 2008/2011 semis.

It's like saying Djoko was better in the 2008 USO semi compared to 2007 F or 2009 semi. It is irrelevant if he was or wasn't a bit better, the end result is that he lost in roughly the same manner. If winning that 2nd set in the 2008 semi resulted in him riding some momentum and taking it to 5 it would be a better performance.

So whether 2012/2017/2018 Fed would claim that 1 set against 2008/2011 Djoko, it's hardly relevant for the general feel of the end result, it's just a more cosmetic performance.
no. I'm talking about taking a set and couple more good level sets, unlike AO 2016 semi.
its not cosmetic and the match dynamics do change.
fed win 1st set in AO 12 vs nadal. and 3rd set could've gone either way. so 2-1 or 1-2. even 4th set was close with a possibility of going 5th.
unlike AO 08/11 - you knew it was very unlikely fed was going to win once he went down 0-2 in sets in both

even in USO 08, it was 1 all, it was 5-5 in the 3rd set and could still have gone either way from then. Only fed raised his level and wrestled the break.
in 07 and 09, fed was up 2 sets to love.
not the same dynamics as 08.

the difference b/w AO 12 semi fed vs AO 08/11 semi fed may not matter so much in the end result vs a 08/11 djoko, but it would matter vs say an opponent like 2014 AO semi nadal.
fed of AO 12 definitely has a clearly better chance of beating that Nadal than fed of AO 08/11 does.

heck, it might matter vs nadal of AO 12 final - who played worse than in the semi (partially matchup I know)

Because 2012 Nadal is an inferior player to 2008/2011 Djoko, who is more in line with 2009 Nadal for one, because he never dipped as low as the 2nd set in that match and because sets 3 and 4 were no better than any he played in 2008/2011 except maybe the 2nd in 2008 where he nearly wrestled the double break lead.
12 AO semi nadal is marginally worse than AO 08 semi djoko and a little more worse than AO 11 semi djoko. But fed matches up worse vs nadal than vs djokovic. so he's up vs a similar level of difficulty.

how did fed nearly wrestle back lead in 2nd set in AO 08? he got one break, that's it. the next service game, djokovic held with one deuce.

3rd and 4th sets of AO 12 semi from fed were better than 1st set of AO 08 semi, considerably better than 2nd set of AO 08 semi
and obviously 1st set of AO 12 semi was better than 3rd set of AO 08 semi (thanks to a flawless TB in the AO 12 semi 1st set)

3rd and 4th sets of AO 12 semi from fed were better than 3rd set of AO 11 semi.
2nd set of AO 11 semi was 2 halves from fed - a very good first half and a below par 2nd half. I'm going to take the 4th set from AO 12 semi over this, but 3rd set at similar level. (both fed/nadal played better in the 4th set than in the 3rd set in AO 12)
But again, over-riding factor is 1st set in AO 12 semi is clearly better than 1st or 2nd set from AO 11 semi.


Raising his level in the 5th set of that match was impressive, no doubt.

But can we also agree that the match-up changed quite a bit in Fed's favour after 2014 with Nadal's decline and changing in playstyle and that played a quite significant role in the grand scheme?

I don't think it changed to being in fed's favour, but it became neutral. But lets not forget that the racquet change and finally getting used to it also helped.
 
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RS

Bionic Poster
Who played at a higher level?

1. Federer RG 05 or Tsonga AO 08
2. Djokovic USO 08 or Alcaraz Wim 23
3. Djokovic RG 15 or Murray Wim 16
4. Roddick AO 04 or Murray Wim 12
5. Federer Wim 14 or Djokovic AO 19
6. Djokovic Wim 14 or Del Potro USO 09
7. Federer AO 11 or Del Potro Wim 13
 

RS

Bionic Poster
It’s pretty bizarre to me that somehow 2018-20 Nadal are unimpeachable to question on here

If you consider how many BPs Federer had in 06/07 for example and how many ridiculous road runner gets Nadal had to make to stay in the point vs peak Fed back then, why exactly is 2018-20 with heavily declined speed totally out of reach for Federer?

Seeing how much success geriatric Fed had against Nadal in those years off clay…
Maybe but as long as we agree 2017 still kicks Fed's around. :p
 

NeutralFan

G.O.A.T.
Why not 2021? Nadal was about the same level both years in 2021 and 2022 (marginally better in 2022 even). I think prime Fed definitely beats 2021 Nadal on clay… it’s the kind of thing that seems like a really easy call to me.

2021 Nadal wasn't on the same level
. Tell me when was the last time Nadal made 50+ unforced errors in just 4 sets and that too on clay. His BH was nonexistent in 2021, wasn't even holding up simple rally shots.
 

ebar86

Rookie
The appropriate year should be 2015 rather than 2014..if 2015, we can have discussions. Only Novak could have chances beating Rafa on clay every year, but he couldn't do it on 2014, let alone any version of Rog.
 
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DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Lol. How he does against 2012 Nadal let alone other ones. Nadal was 24 in 2010 you know right? Also 06 Nadal could be his weakest winning version(05-14)
The guy praises his idols Federer and Djokovic but always underestimates and denigrates Nadal.
It is his modus operandi.
(n)
 

DSH

Talk Tennis Guru
Why not 2021? Nadal was about the same level both years in 2021 and 2022 (marginally better in 2022 even). I think prime Fed definitely beats 2021 Nadal on clay… it’s the kind of thing that seems like a really easy call to me.
Other nonsense.
Nadal did not commit 55 unforced errors or 8 double faults in his match in 2022 as he did in 2021, in addition to the fact that his backhand in that match he lost was at a very low level.
Nadal was giving the Serbian player an anthological dance in the 2022 edition but he could not sustain the high rhythm, which allowed his rival to get back into the match.
Even so, his physique, although he was not in his best shape, resisted Djokovic's attacks, unlike the previous year.
:)
 
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President

Legend
I think prime Federer could have chances against the Nadal of the last few years at Roland Garros, with the exception of a couple matches in which Rafa was really redlining. Nadal at this stage was a much more aggressive player than he was in the mid 2000s against Federer, which would play into prime Fed’s hands. There would be some very tight matches for sure. Federer has somehow become underrated on clay. People forget that from 2005-2009, he really wasn’t losing to anyone except for Nadal on clay.
 
D

Deleted member 779124

Guest
Who played at a higher level?

1. Federer RG 05 or Tsonga AO 08
2. Djokovic USO 08 or Alcaraz Wim 23
3. Djokovic RG 15 or Murray Wim 16
4. Roddick AO 04 or Murray Wim 12
5. Federer Wim 14 or Djokovic AO 19
6. Djokovic Wim 14 or Del Potro USO 09
7. Federer AO 11 or Del Potro Wim 13
Good one lmao
 

Mike Sams

G.O.A.T.
Federer's best shot was 2011 against a below-par Nadal. And even despite being far ahead in the first set and with set points, Federer still managed to lose the set. :laughing:
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
No player beats Nadal in Roland Garros in 2012 or 2017. Saying "past 2010" as if he stopped winning when most of his titles came after is ridiculous.

There's really no way around the fact Nadal of 07-10 was superior to older Nadal. Otherwise do we just say 2017 Fed not dropping a set at Wimbledon is better than 09 Fed taken to 5 by Roddick?

No, younger more in prime versions are clearly superior.
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
There's really no way around the fact Nadal of 07-10 was superior to older Nadal. Otherwise do we just say 2017 Fed not dropping a set at Wimbledon is better than 09 Fed taken to 5 by Roddick?

No, younger more in prime versions are clearly superior.

2012 Nadal was better than 2009 and 2007. As good as 2010. 2017 Nadal was better than 2009 and at least equal to 2007.
 

BGod

G.O.A.T.
2012 Nadal was better than 2009 and 2007. As good as 2010. 2017 Nadal was better than 2009 and at least equal to 2007.

2009 is a given but 2012 Nadal better than 07? I just don't agree and 2017 Nadal is being way overrated like 17 Fed.
 

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
2009 is a given but 2012 Nadal better than 07? I just don't agree and 2017 Nadal is being way overrated like 17 Fed.

Have you watched his performances against Ferrer, Almagro and Mónaco? And the first two sets vs Djokovic? 2012 Nadal was untouchable. 2007 was great but could have gone to 5 if Federer was a bit more clutch on BPs. Obviously, he was stellar in 2007 too, that's a given with Nadal on clay. But 2012 was crazy. The match vs Ferrer is in his TOP 5 matches ever on clay.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Spot on man..
People really think Federer was some Medvedev level player on clay lmao..
Peak Federer= peak Djokovic on clay.. Federer has weak clay resume coz of the peak nadal
Fed should have won MC and Rome once each and taken Nadal 5 at RG once. Then we could allow this.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Have you watched his performances against Ferrer, Almagro and Mónaco? And the first two sets vs Djokovic? 2012 Nadal was untouchable. 2007 was great but could have gone to 5 if Federer was a bit more clutch on BPs. Obviously, he was stellar in 2007 too, that's a given with Nadal on clay. But 2012 was crazy. The match vs Ferrer is in his TOP 5 matches ever on clay.
2012 Nadal was not untouchable. Given Djokovic took 8 games in a row off him (albeit in conditions that went against Nadal). 12 Nadal and 07 Nadal are close, but saying 12 was clearly better doesn't pass the test.
And 07 nadal is better than 17 Nadal.
Federer played his best RG match vs Nadal in 07. Still wasn't close to taking it to 5 given Nadal was unplayable in sets 3 and 4.
 
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paolo2143

Hall of Fame
Listen Fed who played pretty good tennis in 2011 especially at Slams choked against Rafa in that 2011 final.

I think any version of Fed would have choked in same situation, also if Roger had upped his game the chances are that Rafa would have done the same and still beaten so called prime Fed.
 
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