Prime Sampras vs Prime Zverev at Wimbledon, only Zverev serves but he gets only 1 serve, who wins?

Zverev vs Sampras at Wimbledon, only Zverev serves, 1 serve per pt, who wins?

  • Zverev in 3

    Votes: 8 17.4%
  • Zverev in 4

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Zverev in 5

    Votes: 2 4.3%
  • Sampras in 3

    Votes: 22 47.8%
  • Sampras in 4

    Votes: 3 6.5%
  • Sampras in 5

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • OP is dangerously inebriated

    Votes: 10 21.7%

  • Total voters
    46

topher

Hall of Fame
Need to know if this is pre-2002 grass or the current durable rye grass. Has it been played on for 2 weeks?

Zverev to set a record for double faults (or single faults?), that’s the only certainty.
 

Kralingen

Legend
Sampras gifts a set because he’s laughing too hard at Zverev’s service motion and DFs.

from there, he chips and charges or hits a running fearhand on anything but Zed’s best serves. Forces Alexander to go for more and he sets the DF record with 59, Pete wins 6-2, 6-4 the next sets.

PETE in 3, he’s only up 2-1 but Zverev has a mental breakdown and retires after Pete hits an inch perfect volley from behind the service box.
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
Let's see, Pistol won 18.3% of his return games in his Wimby finals (higher than Fed's 17.9% in his winning efforts, as I keep telling you jokers) against better servers/service gamers while Alex has yet to clear the 4th round at SW19, but let's be (very) generous and cap Pete's RGW% at 20%.

And the BGCOAT won a whopping 96.9% of his SGs in his 7 tries, almost certainly the highest hold rate by any multi-champ at any major ever, which can't be chalked up to his serve alone cuz not even the likes of Mac, Boris, Goran, Krajicek, A-Rod and Fed won a whopping 50.8% average of all his SPs outright with their own ATG serves (Pistol's serve is good, but not THAT good). So let's throw Alex another bone and take away all of Pete's 134 aces but add all of his 45 DFs, which gives him 63.9% (500/782) of all SPs won. That's still higher than Diego's career 62.1% (1024/1648) or Fog's 61.6% (2793/4535) on grass, which kinda makes sense cuz you'd think either guy's service game is roughly where your serve becomes a liability. And how often did they hold serve? 74.2% and 75.3% respectively, so let's say Pete would post about 77% without serving.

Now that brings us to an overall 97% for Pistol, which seemingly favors Alex by a slight margin... except that ABZ gets only 1 serve which means his own service stats would no doubt take a nosedive.

So yeah, Pistol still wins. Probably makes Alex cry a la the '20 USO to boot.
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Let's see, Pistol won 18.3% of his return games in his Wimby finals (higher than Fed's 17.9% in his winning efforts, as I keep telling you jokers) against better servers/service gamers while Alex has yet to clear the 4th round at SW19, but let's be (very) generous and cap Pete's RGW% at 20%.

And the BGCOAT won a whopping 96.9% of his SGs in his 7 tries, almost certainly the highest hold rate by any multi-champ at any major ever, which can't be chalked up to his serve alone cuz not even the likes of Mac, Boris, Goran, Krajicek, A-Rod and Fed won a whopping 50.8% average of all his SPs outright with their own ATG serves (Pistol's serve is good, but not THAT good). So let's throw Alex another bone and take away all of Pete's 134 aces but add all of his 45 DFs, which gives him 63.9% (500/782) of all SPs won. That's still higher than Diego's career 62.1% (1024/1648) or Fog's 61.6% (2793/4535) on grass, which kinda makes sense cuz you'd think either guy's service game is roughly where your serve becomes a liability. And how often did they hold serve? 74.2% and 75.3% respectively, so let's say Pete would post about 77% without serving.

Now that brings us to an overall 97% for Pistol, which seemingly favors Alex by a slight margin... except that ABZ gets only 1 serve which means his own service stats would no doubt take a nosedive.

So yeah, Pistol still wins. Probably makes Alex cry a la the '20 USO to boot.
But Non p only Zverev is serving so Pete has to win match by roughly breaking him 60 perecent time for whole match, I know Zverev is not great serve but he is not that bad either.
Unless Zverev is having really bad day, I mean really bad, I just can't see
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Zverev, let say Pete breaks Zverev three time in one set even then score will be only 3-3 with Zverev serving.
Even Pete wins first set by 6-4 margin, for that he has to break Zverev 6 time out of ten serve.
Repeat this for whole match, as I said, unless Zverev is having a really bad day, this is not happening.
Us Open final was bad day for him and even then he had 71 percent hold, if you take out first two set, he hold still 60percent of time, when he was serving bad.
So on fast grass Sampras has to play return game like never before to beat him, if Zverev is serving big
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
But Non p only Zverev is serving so Pete has to win match by roughly breaking him 60 perecent time for whole match, I know Zverev is not great serve but he is not that bad either.
Unless Zverev is having really bad day, I mean really bad, I just can't see
I understood the premise as Pete having to win his service games without serving, not having no SGs period. I don't see any player winning against a decent top 10er if he's allowed to play return games only (barring Rafa or Borg at his absolute peak on clay). I mean even Diego and Fog hold more than 60% of the time, and while there would be days/times when Pete can do no wrong on return they would be pretty rare against a player of Alex's caliber.

OTOH Alex gets only 1 serve so this could get more interesting. Still think he wins this very hypothetical matchup, but probably not by an overwhelming margin.
 

aman92

Hall of Fame
How the hell can Zverev lose if Sampras isn't even serving? Reminds of that hypothetical Sampras vs Nadal match up at RG with only Sampras serving
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Let's see, Pistol won 18.3% of his return games in his Wimby finals (higher than Fed's 17.9% in his winning efforts, as I keep telling you jokers) against better servers/service gamers
not considering service gamers, esp the actual performances.

Service games wise:

For fed:

Tier1: Phil 03, Roddick 04, Roddick 05, Nadal 07, Roddick 09
Tier2: Murray 12
Tier2.5: Nadal 06
Tier4: Cilic

For sampras:

Tier1: Goran 94, Goran 98
Tier2: Courier 93, Becker 95, Rafter 00, Agassi 99
Tier3:
Tier4: Pioline 97
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
I understood the premise as Pete having to win his service games without serving, not having no SGs period. I don't see any player winning against a decent top 10er if he's allowed to play return games only (barring Rafa or Borg at his absolute peak on clay). I mean even Diego and Fog hold more than 60% of the time, and while there would be days/times when Pete can do no wrong on return they would be pretty rare against a player of Alex's caliber.

OTOH Alex gets only 1 serve so this could get more interesting. Still think he wins this very hypothetical matchup, but probably not by an overwhelming margin.
I did not get this...
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
not considering service gamers, esp the actual performances.
I was talking Pete vs. Alex, not Pete vs. Fed (hence the parentheses). Obviously Flipper, A-Rod, (prime) Rafa and even Muzz are/were no slouches.

I did not get this...
@King No1e really needs to clarify this scenario. Think my 1st take is correct cuz I just don't see even a GOAT winning against a fellow top 10er despite playing no SGs except maybe Borg and Rafa on clay, though the novel handicap of only 1 serve for the opponent makes this rather speculative.
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
I was talking Pete vs. Alex, not Pete vs. Fed (hence the parentheses). Obviously Flipper, A-Rod, (prime) Rafa and even Muzz are/were no slouches.
ok, because this is how I see it.

Service games wise:

For fed:

Tier1: Phil 03, Roddick 04, Roddick 05, Nadal 07, Roddick 09
Tier2: Murray 12
Tier2.5: Nadal 06
Tier4: Cilic

For sampras:

Tier1: Goran 94, Goran 98
Tier2: Courier 93, Becker 95, Rafter 00, Agassi 99
Tier3:
Tier4: Pioline 97

fed's competition in Wim finals was better and Sampras' better in QF+SF combined (if we take Wim 93-00 for Sampras and 03-09 &12 for Fed)

@King No1e really needs to clarify this scenario. Think my 1st take is correct cuz I just don't see any player playing winning against any top 10er despite playing no SGs except maybe Borg and Rafa on clay.
Yep, but how are you proposing to start Sampras' SGs here?
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
ok, because this is how I see it.

Service games wise:

For fed:

Tier1: Phil 03, Roddick 04, Roddick 05, Nadal 07, Roddick 09
Tier2: Murray 12
Tier2.5: Nadal 06
Tier4: Cilic

For sampras:

Tier1: Goran 94, Goran 98
Tier2: Courier 93, Becker 95, Rafter 00, Agassi 99
Tier3:
Tier4: Pioline 97

fed's competition in Wim finals was better and Sampras' better in QF+SF combined (if we take Wim 93-00 for Sampras and 03-09 &12 for Fed)
Disagree with '93 Courier and '00 Rafter vs. '05 Roddick and '07 Rafa. As @slice serve ace noted Pete almost lost the 2nd set to Jim despite posting 68% in URS. You can't do that vs. Pistol without protecting your own serve, which Courier obviously did for most of the match. FYI he won 89.8% of his games on grass that year, not quite as high as his 91.5% in '92 but still comparable to '07 Rafa's 90.6% and even '05 A-Rod's 91.9% (given their respective route to the final and of course the spin factor). If anything you're somewhat underrating '06 Rafa who won 89.8% and surprised everyone by going all the way to the final and hanging in there with Fed apart from the 1st set. I'd say he's solidly in tier 2 with '12 Muzz who despite a seasonal 91.5% missed too many 1st serves in his own final (especially after the 1st set) to be clearly ahead of him.

Ditto '00 Rafter with his 91.6%. His only stumble was in the 2nd-set TB which he did choke away by his own admission, but as I keep pointing out the Aussie made the overall SGW% top 10 every year from 1996-2001 (plus '94). Pat might not have been an underappreciated beast on return like Stefan, but on serve he was as dangerous and reliable as non-servebots come.

Boris' poor 2SPW% vs. Pete does bring him down slightly, but 2 is IMO pushing it given his seasonal 89.6% of GW despite facing an otherworldly Dre in the SF (whose own seasonal 35% & 62% in 1st- and 2nd-RPW% is the best GC combo I know of since '91). I'd say 1.5 is closer to the mark. And I can't agree that Pioline who still fired 13 aces against a smoking Pistol is in the same class as an injured Cilic who had all of 5, but this is quibbling more than anything else.

Overall I do agree Fed had it slightly tougher than Pete in their (victorious) Wimby finals, but not so much as to turn their RGW% equation completely around vs. roughly equal opposition. I say that speaks less to Pete's inferior competition than to his underrated return.

Yep, but how are you proposing to start Sampras' SGs here?
No clue, LOL. Maybe a machine from each side of the net feeds him the ball. Suppose he could simply hit to Alex with an underhand "serve" that lands beyond the service line, but I don't see how you make sure it's not too deep to hamper the opponent or too weak to be simply put away as a sitter. Some kind of tech is probably necessary.
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
But Non p only Zverev is serving so Pete has to win match by roughly breaking him 60 perecent time for whole match, I know Zverev is not great serve but he is not that bad either.
Unless Zverev is having really bad day, I mean really bad, I just can't see
Why 60 and not just 50 or above?
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Why 60 and not just 50 or above?
I used 6-4 common score line for percentage, but even breaking 50perecnt will only take to tiebrake, and breaking a good server even 50 percent time on grass in not easy for three whole set.
Zverev in first four set in semi against one of the greatest returner was holding 16/19 serve, that stat alone will finish the match in straight set
 

Chanwan

G.O.A.T.
I used 6-4 common score line for percentage, but even breaking 50perecnt will only take to tiebrake, and breaking a good server even 50 percent time on grass in not easy for three whole set.
Zverev in first four set in semi against one of the greatest returner was holding 16/19 serve, that stat alone will finish the match in straight set
Sure, but if Sampras breaks 50 % of the time in this fantasy league scenarios, it's by definition a toss up match with lots of tiebreaks, where you would probably favor the more mentally clutch Sampras.
Can't see Z losing this one very often though, it's a MASSIVE advantage to be able to hit a serve even though you only are allowed one.
 

NAS

Hall of Fame
Sure, but if Sampras breaks 50 % of the time in this fantasy league scenarios, it's by definition a toss up match with lots of tiebreaks, where you would probably favor the more mentally clutch Sampras.
Can't see Z losing this one very often though, it's a MASSIVE advantage to be able to hit a serve even though you only are allowed one.
Ok wow, I am such a stupid, answered so much and didn't read the op, only one serve, god.
Then it is a tricky match, now this is close, I will still favour Zverev but it is more close now
 

Sunny014

Legend
Zverev will win.
Sampras without his serve is impotent.
Any world class baseliner ranked in the top 5 will beat him if the serve is removed from the picture.
 

King No1e

G.O.A.T.
I was talking Pete vs. Alex, not Pete vs. Fed (hence the parentheses). Obviously Flipper, A-Rod, (prime) Rafa and even Muzz are/were no slouches.



@King No1e really needs to clarify this scenario. Think my 1st take is correct cuz I just don't see even a GOAT winning against a fellow top 10er despite playing no SGs except maybe Borg and Rafa on clay, though the novel handicap of only 1 serve for the opponent makes this rather speculative.
Yeah, Zverev will serve every game but he only gets 1 serve per point, which means every point starts on a Zverev 2nd serve.

This was just my sh*tpost parody of "Nadal vs Sampras at RG, only Pete serves" thread (which I'm convinced Sampras would win)
 

abmk

Bionic Poster
Disagree with '93 Courier and '00 Rafter vs. '05 Roddick and '07 Rafa. As @slice serve ace noted Pete almost lost the 2nd set to Jim despite posting 68% in URS. You can't do that vs. Pistol without protecting your own serve, which Courier obviously did for most of the match. FYI he won 89.8% of his games on grass that year, not quite as high as his 91.5% in '92 but still comparable to '07 Rafa's 90.6% and even '05 A-Rod's 91.9% (given their respective route to the final and of course the spin factor). If anything you're somewhat underrating '06 Rafa who won 89.8% and surprised everyone by going all the way to the final and hanging in there with Fed apart from the 1st set. I'd say he's solidly in tier 2 with '12 Muzz who despite a seasonal 91.5% missed too many 1st serves in his own final (especially after the 1st set) to be clearly ahead of him.

Ditto '00 Rafter with his 91.6%. His only stumble was in the 2nd-set TB which he did choke away by his own admission, but as I keep pointing out the Aussie made the overall SGW% top 10 every year from 1996-2001 (plus '94). Pat might not have been an underappreciated beast on return like Stefan, but on serve he was as dangerous and reliable as non-servebots come.

Boris' poor 2SPW% vs. Pete does bring him down slightly, but 2 is IMO pushing it given his seasonal 89.6% of GW despite facing an otherworldly Dre in the SF (whose own seasonal 35% & 62% in 1st- and 2nd-RPW% is the best GC combo I know of since '91). I'd say 1.5 is closer to the mark.
1. I only put Nadal 06 of the final down a notch because of the bagel in the 1st set. Maybe a little under-rating there. Could bump him upto tier2.

2. Murray serve% didn't drop after 1st set. It was after 2nd set. 2nd set 1st serve% was highest in fact:
57.8%, 72.2%, 48.8%, 45.5% in the 4 sets

3. Courier should be tier 1.5 I guess, not tier 2. I under-rated his play to an extent when typing that.

4. I am not sure about the same Rafter 00, given he was facing not that great a Sampras as Courier was.

5. Becker, I don't think so.
50/140 servs unret. (35.71%)
But 15 DFs
so if you subtract.
net free points: 35/140 (25%)
broken 5 times in 19 games.

6. Nadal Wim 07 final was broken only once till the final set. That's how well he backed up his serve. That's clearly a notch above Courier 93/Rafter 00, no question. Roddick Wim 05 final is more arguable.

And I can't agree that Pioline who still fired 13 aces against a smoking Pistol is in the same class as an injured Cilic who had all of 5, but this is quibbling more than anything else.
Cilic: unret serve% = 29/90 (3 DFs) = 32.22%

Pioline: unret serve% = 30/78(38%) as per waspsting's thread:

difference is more than explained by Pioline SnVing a lot more.
Maybe half a tier difference. Tier 3.5 for Pioline and 4 for Cilic, but not more than that IMO.

Fed needed to 2 things mainly right in Wim 17 final - serve and return. He did both pretty well.

Overall I do agree Fed had it slightly tougher than Pete in their (victorious) Wimby finals, but not so much as to turn their RGW% equation completely around vs. roughly equal opposition. I say that speaks less to Pete's inferior competition than to his underrated return.
Pete's return is under-rated among those who didn't watch him, but doesn't come upto fed's standards. IMO, the difference in the service games quality they faced is more than what you make it out to be.


No clue, LOL. Maybe a machine from each side of the net feeds him the ball. Suppose he could simply hit to Alex with an underhand "serve" that lands beyond the service line, but I don't see how you make sure it's not too deep to hamper the opponent or too weak to be simply put away as a sitter. Some kind of tech is probably necessary.
exactly my point. Not easy to get a solution.
 

tudwell

Legend
Zverev's career average second-serve points won percentage on grass is 49% (51% this year).
Pete's career average second-return points won percentage on grass is 53% and in his peak years was routinely above that (59% in 1995).
 

Gazelle

G.O.A.T.
Only one serve means only second serves. How well does Zed fare on them?

I think Pete might take it, but it should be close anyway. People thinking triple bakery goods need to activate their brain.
 
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