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buscemi said:
And later lost to Seles at the '92 French Open after winning Hamburg & Berlin.
Click to expand...


Graf beat Seles in 3 of 4 matches in Seles's two best years ever (1991/92).

Graf won 7 sets: 6-4, 6-3, 7-5, 6-3, 6-3, 6-2, 6-1.
Seles won 3 sets: 7-6, 6-2, 10-8.


What would have happened to Seles if Graf had been in peak form in those years ... ? :)
 
LDVTennis said:
At her 96 or even 88 peak, Seles would have been lucky to win a set off Graf.
Click to expand...

Well, that's interesting because Seles won 3/5 sets against Graf in 1999.

As for 1988, well if 17 year-old Sabatini could beat Graf twice and Pam Shriver could beat her once and lose another match to her 7-6 in the 3rd, I think that Seles wouldn't have needed luck to take sets/matches off of Graf.
 
LDVTennis said:
Good try, NadalAgassi. But, Graf was not in peak form in 93.
Click to expand...

76-5 against players not named Seles. Finals at AO (losing to Seles), FO Champion, Wimbledon Champion, U.S. Open Champion, YEC Champion. You're right. I don't think that 1993 was Graf's "peak," but it was pretty close.
 
LDVTennis said:
All your usernames starting to confuse you? I said 96, not 99.
Click to expand...

My mistake. Let's look at Graf's 1996:

Losses to:

Date(#9)
15 year-old Hingis(#20)
Davenport(#10)
Novotna(#4)

Lost sets in matches against, in addition to the above:

Davenport(#12)
Habsudova(#54)
ASV(#3)
Date(#13)
Wiesner(#24)
Wiesner(#21)
Novtona(#4)
16 year-old Hingis(#7)

I'm pretty sure that peak Seles wouldn't have been sweating winning some sets off of '96 Graf.
 
LDVTennis said:
Your idiocy speaks for itself.
Click to expand...

Graf in 1993 (minus Seles loss):

76-5 (93.83%); AO finalist, FO Champ, Wimbledon Champ, U.S. Open Champ, YEC Champ

Graf in 1996:

54-4 (93.10%); AO DNP; FO Champ, Wimbledon Champ, U.S. Open Champ, YEC Champ

I don't see much difference between these 2 years.
 
NadalAgassi said:
My mistake. Let's look at Graf's 1996:
Click to expand...

No, let's look at what Graf said herself.

Q. The last major you won was the French Open of 1999, and you said at the time that it was probably the most unexpected. You seem the most gratified by that win. Do you still feel that way now? And then the second part of the question would be, looking back on your career, do you feel like you may have peaked in that period of, say, '95, '96, rather than your Grand Slam season of '88?

STEFFI GRAF: Well, to answer your first question, I have to say there have been a few unexpected wins. I recall that I struggled a lot with my knee and with my back and I got to Wimbledon a day and a half before the tournament started and didn't even know if I should play or not and I ended up winning. But in terms of where I was in '99 and where I was coming back from with the knee surgeries, and just for many months, not playing as well as I could have for quite a period and didn't really believe in myself as much. To able to beat the players that I did at that time, yeah, I still think that that was -- that probably was the most unexpected. The second part, yeah, I believe that in '95 and '96, even though I was starting to struggle with my back and it has not been -- it wasn't so easy to work as hard as maybe I have done in my younger years, maybe not being physically in as great of shape as when I was younger. But I think as a player, I was much more complete, and I think that that's a big thanks to [Heinz] who elevated my game and statistics and strategies to another level, and to make me a smarter player on the court, for sure, I feel like that I was a better player then.
--- HOF Press Conference, April 28, 2004
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=19136​
 
buscemi said:
Graf won 1 Major in 1987.

Graf lost to a 17 year-old ASV at the French Open in 1989.
Click to expand...


Graf didn't play AO in 1987.
And lost to 30-year-old Navi on fast courts in Wimbledon and at USO.
1991/92 Seles would not have had a shadow of a chance there against Navi.

Seles lost twice to 15-year-old Capriati in 1991/92. :):)
You know, this girl who won a staggering 14 tournaments in her long career ...
 
buscemi said:
I think that we have a pretty good answer: What happened at the '93 Australian Open.
Click to expand...


You think Seles would have been better than 1-3 H2H in 1991/92 against PEAK Graf ... ? :)

Hopefully you can earn some money for a living with manual labour ... :):):)
 
buscemi said:
Well, that's interesting because Seles won 3/5 sets against Graf in 1999.

As for 1988, well if 17 year-old Sabatini could beat Graf twice and Pam Shriver could beat her once and lose another match to her 7-6 in the 3rd, I think that Seles wouldn't have needed luck to take sets/matches off of Graf.
Click to expand...


Did I mention that peak prime Seles of 1991/92 lose twice against a 15-year-old (!) Capriati?
You know, this Jennifer girl? Who won tons of tournaments in the next 12 years?
About 14 .... ?
:):):)
 
buscemi said:
76-5 against players not named Seles. Finals at AO (losing to Seles), FO Champion, Wimbledon Champion, U.S. Open Champion, YEC Champion. You're right. I don't think that 1993 was Graf's "peak," but it was pretty close.
Click to expand...


Graf was not at her peak in the first months of 1993.
Lost 4 of her first 6 tournaments that year. Even lost to a 36-year-old Navi!!
(Remember, Graf won 4 of 4 matches against Navi in 1988/89!)

Graf was still improving after her slump.
She won 8 of her remaining 9 tournaments in 1993.

2-4 in first 4 months.
8-1 in last 7 months.
 
buscemi said:
Graf in 1993 (minus Seles loss):

76-5 (93.83%); AO finalist, FO Champ, Wimbledon Champ, U.S. Open Champ, YEC Champ

Graf in 1996:

54-4 (93.10%); AO DNP; FO Champ, Wimbledon Champ, U.S. Open Champ, YEC Champ

I don't see much difference between these 2 years.
Click to expand...



Graf won only 2 of 6 tournaments in January-April 1993.
But 8 of 9 in May-November 1993.

I do see a lot of difference between those parts of 1993.
 
If you folks genuinely believe that Navratilova could have played her effective serve/volley vs. today's power players or that Chrissie would have been remotely as unbeatable as she was in the 70's, well, you have not been watching all that closely or without prejudice.

There is a tendency to dismiss the current breed because of nostalgia and a dlsike of current parity. The Kvitova we just saw at Wimby would have blown Chrissie and Arantxa et. al. off the court. Women's tennis has improved greatly in applied skill, more so than the men. See Hingis in 2000 to 2002 (0 wins vs Capriati).
 
LDVTennis said:
No, let's look at what Graf said herself.

Q. The last major you won was the French Open of 1999, and you said at the time that it was probably the most unexpected. You seem the most gratified by that win. Do you still feel that way now? And then the second part of the question would be, looking back on your career, do you feel like you may have peaked in that period of, say, '95, '96, rather than your Grand Slam season of '88?

STEFFI GRAF: Well, to answer your first question, I have to say there have been a few unexpected wins. I recall that I struggled a lot with my knee and with my back and I got to Wimbledon a day and a half before the tournament started and didn't even know if I should play or not and I ended up winning. But in terms of where I was in '99 and where I was coming back from with the knee surgeries, and just for many months, not playing as well as I could have for quite a period and didn't really believe in myself as much. To able to beat the players that I did at that time, yeah, I still think that that was -- that probably was the most unexpected. The second part, yeah, I believe that in '95 and '96, even though I was starting to struggle with my back and it has not been -- it wasn't so easy to work as hard as maybe I have done in my younger years, maybe not being physically in as great of shape as when I was younger. But I think as a player, I was much more complete, and I think that that's a big thanks to [Heinz] who elevated my game and statistics and strategies to another level, and to make me a smarter player on the court, for sure, I feel like that I was a better player then.
--- HOF Press Conference, April 28, 2004
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=19136​
Click to expand...

Look, I agree with you. I think that 1996 was Graf's peak. As I said before, Graf in 1993 was near-peak Graf, and I think the #s bear that out.
 
jaap deboeck said:
If you folks genuinely believe that Navratilova could have played her effective serve/volley vs. today's power players or that Chrissie would have been remotely as unbeatable as she was in the 70's, well, you have not been watching all that closely or without prejudice. ...
Click to expand...

Against whom of today's players would Navratilova - with a modern racket! - struggle on grass?

Kvitova ... ?

Bwahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
 
Joe Pike said:
Graf didn't play AO in 1987.
And lost to 30-year-old Navi on fast courts in Wimbledon and at USO.
1991/92 Seles would not have had a shadow of a chance there against Navi.

Seles lost twice to 15-year-old Capriati in 1991/92. :):)
You know, this girl who won a staggering 14 tournaments in her long career ...
Click to expand...

Navratilova was 56-8 in 1987.

She was 53-9 in 1991, 52-5 if you don't include 3 losses (and 1 win) against Seles, including losses at the U.S. Open and YEC.
 
jaap deboeck said:
... just saw at Wimby would have blown Chrissie and Arantxa et. al. off the court. Women's tennis has improved greatly in applied skill, more so than the men. ...
Click to expand...


Yes, that's why 40-year-old Kimiko Date won 5 of her 10 matches against top-15 players last year - those "great improvements in applied skill" ....:):):)
 
buscemi said:
Look, I agree with you. I think that 1996 was Graf's peak. As I said before, Graf in 1993 was near-peak Graf, and I think the #s bear that out.
Click to expand...

"As a player more complete".
So?

Graf was not even near her physical peak anymore in 1996.
Everybody who says otherwise is nuts.
 
Joe Pike said:
You think Seles would have been better than 1-3 H2H in 1991/92 against PEAK Graf ... ? :)

Hopefully you can earn some money for a living with manual labour ... :):):)
Click to expand...

Seles wasn't at hear peak yet in 1991. Heck, she wasn't even at her peak until the '92 U.S. Open, when she started hitting bigger serves, bigger returns, and bigger angles. But she certainly wasn't at her peak until August 1991 when she took the #1 ranking away for good from Graf before she was stabbed. And from August 1991 or 1992-Hamburg '93, she was 2-1 against Graf.
 
buscemi said:
Seles wasn't at hear peak yet in 1991. Heck, she wasn't even at her peak until the '92 U.S. Open, when she started hitting bigger serves, bigger returns, and bigger angles. ....
Click to expand...


From January 1st until 27th April 1992 (week before Hamburg 1992) Monica Seles won 26 of 27 matches losing only 4 sets.
She lost 124 games in 58 sets (average 2.1 games)

From January 1st until April 26th 1993 (week before Hamburg 1993) Monica Seles won 15 of 16 matches losing 6 sets.
She lost 94 games in 39 sets (average 2.4 games)

And where is the improvement ... ?
 
buscemi said:
... And from August 1991 or 1992-Hamburg '93, she was 2-1 against Graf.
Click to expand...


4-4 in sets.
38-39 in games played.
Two matches on slow courts, one on a fast court.

But let's add the two 1991 matches, when Steffi had her worst year in the 1987-96 time frame.

2-3 in matches.
5-8 in sets.
60-70 in games played.
Seles's record as the #1 player against a slumping Graf.
 
Joe Pike said:
Graf was not at her peak in the first months of 1993.
Lost 4 of her first 6 tournaments that year. Even lost to a 36-year-old Navi!!
(Remember, Graf won 4 of 4 matches against Navi in 1988/89!)

Graf was still improving after her slump.
She won 8 of her remaining 9 tournaments in 1993.

2-4 in first 4 months.
8-1 in last 7 months.
Click to expand...

Still improving from a slump? From '92 Hamburg to the end of the year, Graf went 56-4 (55-3 against players not named Seles), winning 7 of the 10 tournaments she entered (she also swept Fed Cup and lost in the Olympic finals). Sure, a player is going to have ups-and-downs during a year, but there was nothing leading into the '93 AO, or in Graf's first 6 matches there, that would indicate that she was playing anything but great tennis.
 
Joe Pike said:
From January 1st until 27th April 1992 (week before Hamburg 1992) Monica Seles won 26 of 27 matches losing only 4 sets.
She lost 124 games in 58 sets (average 2.1 games)

From January 1st until April 26th 1993 (week before Hamburg 1993) Monica Seles won 15 of 16 matches losing 6 sets.
She lost 94 games in 39 sets (average 2.4 games)

And where is the improvement ... ?
Click to expand...

Better serve, better return of serve, better angles, better net play. The 1 match she lost in 1993 was 7-6 in the 3rd to Navratilova when she had the flu. And Martina was having a resurgence in late 1992-early 1993, going 28-4 on carpet, with her only losses coming to Graf and Seles.

Plus, the players Seles played in early 1993 >> the players Seles played in early 1992.
 
Joe Pike said:
4-4 in sets.
38-39 in games played.
Two matches on slow courts, one on a fast court.

But let's add the two 1991 matches, when Steffi had her worst year in the 1987-96 time frame.

2-3 in matches.
5-8 in sets.
60-70 in games played.
Seles's record as the #1 player against a slumping Graf.
Click to expand...

And Graf's record against a 16 year-old Seles was

0-2 in matches
0-4 in sets
17-25 in sets played

The bottom line is this: Seles didn't start to hit her peak until the '92 French Open, and she didn't really hit her peak until the '92 U.S. Open, which she won without dropping a set and with dropping only 27 games (much better statistically than Graf's best ever U.S. Open).
 
buscemi said:
Still improving from a slump? From '92 Hamburg to the end of the year, Graf went 56-4 (55-3 against players not named Seles), winning 7 of the 10 tournaments she entered (she also swept Fed Cup and lost in the Olympic finals). Sure, a player is going to have ups-and-downs during a year, but there was nothing leading into the '93 AO, or in Graf's first 6 matches there, that would indicate that she was playing anything but great tennis.
Click to expand...

Graf struggled against ASV in the AO semis and lost to Navi one week later in Tokyo.

In 1994 she beat ASV 60 62 in the AO final. And beat Navi 64 62 in Tokyo.
THAT is peak Graf, son ...
 
buscemi said:
Look, I agree with you. I think that 1996 was Graf's peak. As I said before, Graf in 1993 was near-peak Graf, and I think the #s bear that out.
Click to expand...

Her record in 93 is misleading.

But, then, who knows better? You? Or, Steffi herself?

Here is Steffi on her level of play in 92 and 93:

Q. If you say that you have grown as a player now compared to back to 1988, if you had to pinpoint one specific thing that has changed everything for you, what would you say that is? Would it be the new racket? Would it be the training? What?

STEFFI GRAF: I would say that it started with Heinz. That is what I really have to say. He had a lot of ideas which I wasn't just -- at that moment, I needed a change, I needed a push. For a couple of years I wasn't working as hard. I didn't do anything different. I just was playing tennis as a routine and he changed that. He made it more difficult, but he just -- he just showed me things that I wasn't shown at that stage. So I would think that he was the biggest change, the best change that I have had.

Q. More difficult, but would you also say he has made it more fun again?

STEFFI GRAF: Well, if I am playing like that all day, yeah, he has made it more fun. Maybe the training sometimes is not as much fun. If you are doing things that maybe you are not as good and you have to do them, it is difficult for me, but I know the result will show and I just need some time for it. I have a lot of trust in him. That is why I am just doing these things.

--- Presser, Miami (Lipton), March 15, 1994
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=19173​
 
Joe Pike said:
Graf struggled against ASV in the AO semis and lost to Navi one week later in Tokyo.

In 1994 she beat ASV 60 62 in the AO final. And beat Navi 64 62 in Tokyo.
THAT is peak Graf, son ...
Click to expand...

As noted, Navratilova had a resurgence on carpet in late '92/early '93, only losing to Graf and Seles. In late '93/early '94, in addition to losing to Graf, she lost to Manuela Maleeva (in straight sets), Zvereva (in straight sets), Pierce, and Maggie Maleeva.

And her "struggle" against ASV in '93 was still a straight set win, which Graf followed up by beating her 6-4, 6-3 at Delray Beach. In '94, the AO win over ASV was easier, but the win at Delray Beach was tougher, 6-3, 7-5.

And for the record, I agree that Graf played better at the '94 AO than she played at the '93 AO. But she didn't play that much better.
 
LDVTennis said:
Her record in 93 is misleading.

But, then, who knows better? You? Or, Steffi herself?

Here is Steffi on her level of play in 92 and 93:

Q. If you say that you have grown as a player now compared to back to 1988, if you had to pinpoint one specific thing that has changed everything for you, what would you say that is? Would it be the new racket? Would it be the training? What?

STEFFI GRAF: I would say that it started with Heinz. That is what I really have to say. He had a lot of ideas which I wasn't just -- at that moment, I needed a change, I needed a push. For a couple of years I wasn't working as hard. I didn't do anything different. I just was playing tennis as a routine and he changed that. He made it more difficult, but he just -- he just showed me things that I wasn't shown at that stage. So I would think that he was the biggest change, the best change that I have had.

Q. More difficult, but would you also say he has made it more fun again?

STEFFI GRAF: Well, if I am playing like that all day, yeah, he has made it more fun. Maybe the training sometimes is not as much fun. If you are doing things that maybe you are not as good and you have to do them, it is difficult for me, but I know the result will show and I just need some time for it. I have a lot of trust in him. That is why I am just doing these things.

--- Presser, Miami (Lipton), March 15, 1994
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=19173​
Click to expand...

I don't see how that makes her record in 1992 or 1993 misleading. It merely indicates that she thought that she wasn't playing at her absolute peak in those years. And I agree. I don't think that she was at her absolute peak. But I do think that she was pretty close to it.
 
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