Prince Original Graphite ( POG ) Mid and OS versions

Thanks Sanglier ... would the serial number provide any additional interesting information?

Most if not all of these Fansteel POGs should have an electro-penciled number that begin with a "9" or "119", followed by a letter, followed by a three or four digit number. If yours doesn't, then it will be much more interesting than the rest.
 
Most if not all of these Fansteel POGs should have an electro-penciled number that begin with a "9" or "119", followed by a letter, followed by a three or four digit number. If yours doesn't, then it will be much more interesting than the rest.

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As an interesting aside, the adhesive on the underside of the sticker was still fresh and sticky! Can we glean any information from the alphanumerics or is it all just internal mumbo jumbo?

Also is there anything underneath the black and gold sticker of the Grafalloy frame?

@Sanglier your wealth of info never fails to astonish.
 
As an interesting aside, the adhesive on the underside of the sticker was still fresh and sticky! Can we glean any information from the alphanumerics or is it all just internal mumbo jumbo?

Also is there anything underneath the black and gold sticker of the Grafalloy frame?

The honest answer to your first question is: I don't know!

I had posed the same question to a couple of Fansteel alumni many years ago, and none of them knew the answer either, because this was not part of their job.

From my own observations: The first number is related to both the model and (possibly) year of manufacture, so the "9" here may indicate 1979 manufacture. However, "POG" production began in 1978, yet I have never come across an example that had an "8" in the first number. Meanwhile, all examples of the "POG II" I have seen had numbers that began with "118", even though they were launched at the same time as the first batch of "POG"s (presumably those that had numbers starting with "119"). So who knows what they actually had in mind!

The alphabet in the middle is almost certainly a lot/batch indicator, while the second number must have been sequentially assigned as the racquets came through the production line, because you occasionally see letters and digits crossed out or modified to show the adjacent letter or digit.

There were tons of unfinished contract frames in Fansteel's inventory when they shut down in 1979, all of which were shipped south to Grafalloy along with the production equipment and were subsequently finished there. These frames, as well as the later examples produced from scratch by Grafalloy, were also engraved with serial numbers, at first following the Fansteel convention, then modified to suit Grafalloy's specific needs (some of the later numbers were assigned to batches only, rather than individual frames). This practice was maintained through at least the summer of 1981, possibly into 1982, when the black and gold decal was phased out in favor of molded butt caps.
 
The honest answer to your first question is: I don't know!

I had posed the same question to a couple of Fansteel alumni many years ago, and none of them knew the answer either, because this was not part of their job.

From my own observations: The first number is related to both the model and (possibly) year of manufacture, so the "9" here may indicate 1979 manufacture. However, "POG" production began in 1978, yet I have never come across an example that had an "8" in the first number. Meanwhile, all examples of the "POG II" I have seen had numbers that began with "118", even though they were launched at the same time as the first batch of "POG"s (presumably those that had numbers starting with "119"). So who knows what they actually had in mind!

The alphabet in the middle is almost certainly a lot/batch indicator, while the second number must have been sequentially assigned as the racquets came through the production line, because you occasionally see letters and digits crossed out or modified to show the adjacent letter or digit.

There were tons of unfinished contract frames in Fansteel's inventory when they shut down in 1979, all of which were shipped south to Grafalloy along with the production equipment and were subsequently finished there. These frames, as well as the later examples produced from scratch by Grafalloy, were also engraved with serial numbers, at first following the Fansteel convention, then modified to suit Grafalloy's specific needs (some of the later numbers were assigned to batches only, rather than individual frames). This practice was maintained through at least the summer of 1981, possibly into 1982, when the black and gold decal was phased out in favor of molded butt caps.

Incredible info as always @Sanglier thanks so much for the unique perspective as always. Did Fansteel (apparently named after Mr. Pfanstiehl which is just perfect) produce both OP and MP frames? Were there even grommetless MP's?

For the curious, specs on this Fansteel are quite interesting. Whereas weight and swing can be daunting on grommetless pogs (mine is 373g/351sw), the Fansteel is 360g/335sw and plays amazingly, honestly the best-playing pog I've got, by a fair margin. Soft, fast, and powerful.
 
Yes, Pfanstiehl became Fansteel in 1918, after the US joined the war against the Central Powers, just as Battenberg was anglicized into Mountbatten a year earlier, following the conversion of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha into the House of Windsor. However, Carl Pfanstiehl himself never changed his name, unlike the British royals. He went on to found a bio-pharma company right after the war, the name of which was changed to Pfanstiehl in 1930, reprising what Fansteel had abandoned, now that anti-German sentiments had waned. Old Carl must have been sick of the silly name changes and decided that he longer needed to prove his loyalty to his country when the US went to war against the Germans for the second time in as many decades, as bio-pharma Pfanstiehl is still Pfanstiehl to this day.

No, POG 90 didn't arrive until late 1984, by which point even Grafalloy had stopped making racquets.

Fansteel did develop a midsize graphite for Tony Trabert called "C-6 Middy", which got caught up in the collapse of the contract and subsequent shutdown. These racquets are quite scarce today. A slightly different paint job was given to the "C-6 Middy" in late 1982, when it was relaunched as the "Middy" together with the "Signature", a renamed "C-6", both produced by Grafalloy. This "Middy" is slightly more common than its predecessor, even though it too, was only around for just over a year. If you liked the POG, you will also like the "Middy".
 
I`ve just acquired my first POG and I think I`ve identified it (thanks to some of Sanglier`s postings) as a type 1 model made by Grafalloy.
I`m still unusure as to whether it is107 or 110 sq inch head tho.
IIt came with a really nice fully-lined bag which feels/looks like a type of tan coloured leather (? ) which darkens if you rub a wet finger over it.
It has no markings on the frame other than the Prince and Graphite on the face of the frame.
It has one sticker on the side of the shaft which lists patents and the seemingly crazy stringing tension guide of 72-80lbs !
The strings look/sound pretty taught so I`m not planning a re-string but has anyone any had experience of re-stringing at anywhere close to those high tensions ?
It sounds like a recipe for disaster to me .
It will get a hit tomorrow and I`m hoping it`s as enjoyable as many of my other early/mid 80`s graphite sticks ..most of which are far lower head sizes.
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It has one sticker on the side of the shaft which lists patents and the seemingly crazy stringing tension guide of 72-80lbs !
The strings look/sound pretty taught so I`m not planning a re-string but has anyone any had experience of re-stringing at anywhere close to those high tensions ?
It sounds like a recipe for disaster to me .

Ive tried upto 68 lbs with synthetic gut and ill tell you 68 lbs on a MODERN racket hoop and CLASSIC racket hoop (and oversize at that with a 16x19) like this is 2 very different things. The slightly flimsy hoop made it feel like its 10 lbs lower and power level is still decent so its nowhere as bad as you might imagine. Would be more concerned about integrity of 40-50 years old frames...

If a 68si 18x20 frame could be strung at 60lbs in the 1970s - a 110si 16x19 could be 72-80 I guess.... In a time when most hitting was flat with a continental grip?
 
I`ve just acquired my first POG and I think I`ve identified it (thanks to some of Sanglier`s postings) as a type 1 model made by Grafalloy.
I`m still unusure as to whether it is107 or 110 sq inch head tho.
IIt came with a really nice fully-lined bag which feels/looks like a type of tan coloured leather (? ) which darkens if you rub a wet finger over it.
It has no markings on the frame other than the Prince and Graphite on the face of the frame.
It has one sticker on the side of the shaft which lists patents and the seemingly crazy stringing tension guide of 72-80lbs !
The strings look/sound pretty taught so I`m not planning a re-string but has anyone any had experience of re-stringing at anywhere close to those high tensions ?
It sounds like a recipe for disaster to me .
It will get a hit tomorrow and I`m hoping it`s as enjoyable as many of my other early/mid 80`s graphite sticks ..most of which are far lower head sizes.
IMG-20251120-105023153.jpg

IMG-20251120-105127537.jpg

IMG_20251120_105151040_HDR.jpg

IMG_20251120_105225181.jpg

IMG_20251120_105321575.jpg

IMG_20251120_105242916_HDR.jpg

IMG_20251120_105356925.jpg
That bag was made for the Prince Boron. The Boron was $500 back in the day and likely because it came with a full leather bag and also a leather keychain.
 
Cool POG MID review by ATP ranked player

yup! nice review, he really echoed everything what I also appreciate about the frame !
Which is really saying something because we-re from totally different generations, but the fellings were generally the same about it.

p.s. and I just wonder what he would have said had he tried it with a soft poly string... he would be mind-blown
 
yup! nice review, he really echoed everything what I also appreciate about the frame !
Which is really saying something because we-re from totally different generations, but the fellings were generally the same about it.

p.s. and I just wonder what he would have said had he tried it with a soft poly string... he would be mind-blown
Now you made me want to string my POG MP with soft polly ( but necesarlly in Prince synt gut yellow colour - maybe Gosen G tour
) Any recommendations?
 
Cool POG MID review by ATP ranked player


One thing I noticed about Sean's great review is that he used a POG 'Midplus', which is the version 4.5 mentioned above, and at 340g strung it is at least 1/2 ounce lighter than earlier models. Not by design, I have acquired the following sequential models over the years, which I've just noticed are all 6pt HL. All with original leather grips:

1. 1-Stripe V3 (90): 363g, 32.25cm balance (6pt HL)
2. 4-Stripe V4 Series 90: 356g, 32.25cm balance
3. 4-Stripe V4.5 Midplus: 340g, 32.25cm balance
4. Straight-Shaft Midplus: 338g, 32.25cm balance

As far as I can tell from the discussion above, this reduction in weight is also the case with POG 110s, which may have reduced in weight by even more. In comparison to the Midplus, most grommetless, 1-stripes or 4-stripe 'Series 90' (V1-V4) are 340g unstrung like most rackets of the day. Although the Midplus V4.5 feels solid and heavy compared to modern rackets, it is actually fairly hollow and crisp feeling compared to the earlier models, which are rock-solid and also probably more comfortable thanks to their mass. So the change from Series 90/110 to Midplus/Oversize was a fairly big difference in characteristics in my opinion. Given that the balances are the same, the reduction of 14g+ mass would imply around 14sw+ points lower.
 
Its not thats
One thing I noticed about Sean's great review is that he used a POG 'Midplus', which is the version 4.5 mentioned above, and at 340g strung it is at least 1/2 ounce lighter than earlier models. Not by design, I have acquired the following sequential models over the years, which I've just noticed are all 6pt HL. All with original leather grips:

1. 1-Stripe V3 (90): 363g, 32.25cm balance (6pt HL)
2. 4-Stripe V4 Series 90: 356g, 32.25cm balance
3. 4-Stripe V4.5 Midplus: 340g, 32.25cm balance
4. Straight-Shaft Midplus: 338g, 32.25cm balance

As far as I can tell from the discussion above, this reduction in weight is also the case with POG 110s, which may have reduced in weight by even more. In comparison to the Midplus, most grommetless, 1-stripes or 4-stripe 'Series 90' (V1-V4) are 340g unstrung like most rackets of the day. Although the Midplus V4.5 feels solid and heavy compared to modern rackets, it is actually fairly hollow and crisp feeling compared to the earlier models, which are rock-solid and also probably more comfortable thanks to their mass. So the change from Series 90/110 to Midplus/Oversize was a fairly big difference in characteristics in my opinion. Given that the balances are the same, the reduction of 14g+ mass would imply around 14sw+ points lower.

I owe 340 gramm version and i think reduced mass and open string pattern are.main reasons why this rackets is.kinda usable for modern tennis
Its not that simple with the swingweight calculation
Here are two extreme examples of swinweight differences while keeping same balance point

IMG-20251126-120421.jpg

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Its not thats


I owe 340 gramm version and i think reduced mass and open string pattern are.main reasons why this rackets is.kinda usable for modern tennis
Its not that simple with the swingweight calculation
Here are two extreme examples of swinweight differences while keeping same balance point
IMG-20251126-114956.jpg

IMG-20251126-114938.jpg

Indeed, I'm aware of how SW works, although a 340g strung, 32.25cm balanced racket, with 358sw is pretty rare. Most would be around 34cm balanced to achieve that SW, like an Origin.

In the case of the POG changes, it's clear the SW reduced in line with the reduction ins weight over the years, which is you say make the later ones more playable today. I prefer the earlier ones myself though, probably because I'm used to 360g strung.
 
Indeed, I'm aware of how SW works, although a 340g strung, 32.25cm balanced racket, with 358sw is pretty rare. Most would be around 34cm balanced to achieve that SW, like an Origin.

In the case of the POG changes, it's clear the SW reduced in line with the reduction ins weight over the years, which is you say make the later ones more playable today. I prefer the earlier ones myself though, probably because I'm used to 360g strung.
358 sw is for 356 gramm racket ;)

I just wanted to say that predicting SW while adding/reducing mass is a tricky thing - even if balance point stays the same.
Depends on place when you add/ reduce weight SW numbers can be very different

Here i did same calculation as before but opositte (this workseet can also oeprate on negative numbers - i ddint know this before ;))

IMG-20251126-140519.jpg

IMG-20251126-141009.jpg
 
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I`m going to put my racket in for a restring but is the recommend very high tension range really viable on such an old frame?
The range seems way higher than most other early graphite sticks I have.
IMG_20251120_105225181.jpg


It`s taken me a while to find one and I`d be well miffed if it cracked during a re-string.
Does any one have experience of having one re-strung lately?
Most of my 80`s graphites have been re-strung in the 48-55 lb range depend on makers recommendations and taking off a maybe a few pounds to allow for frame age.
Should I risk 60-65lbs ?
 
I`m going to put my racket in for a restring but is the recommend very high tension range really viable on such an old frame?
The range seems way higher than most other early graphite sticks I have.
IMG_20251120_105225181.jpg


It`s taken me a while to find one and I`d be well miffed if it cracked during a re-string.
Does any one have experience of having one re-strung lately?
Most of my 80`s graphites have been re-strung in the 48-55 lb range depend on makers recommendations and taking off a maybe a few pounds to allow for frame age.
Should I risk 60-65lbs ?

Ive done 60-65 lbs (and +5 lbs on tieoffs) in all of my OS Prince 110 classics including POGs and never had an issue. Almost always with Syngut or Tournament Nylon.

I think the walls within the thinner beams of classic rackets are more "solid" and not as thin as walls of thicker beam modern rackets.

Your mileage may vary obviously.
 
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Thanks for the info @ Moldy oak and thenewbig3 -
I`ll have a close inspection of the frame for any signs of cracking before I get it done at around 65lbs.
A good thing about the mk 1`s is you don`t have to worry about finding replacement grommets or headguard -just pop a bit of protection tape on the top of the hoop.
 
Thanks for the info @ Moldy oak and thenewbig3 -
I`ll have a close inspection of the frame for any signs of cracking before I get it done at around 65lbs.
A good thing about the mk 1`s is you don`t have to worry about finding replacement grommets or headguard -just pop a bit of protection tape on the top of the hoop.
Keep in mind that head tape will up your swingweight around 6-8 points depending upon brand and how much you use. I had to replace the bumper guard on one of my PS classics and was out of the black originals at the time, so I had to use one from an ultra kevlar of the same era. They're a touch narrower but they work just fine. The white was driving me nuts though, so I used a piece of black head tape to cover it. SW went up 8 points. I'm not good enough or sensitive enough to really care but some might!

My remaining POG mid 1-stripe w/ leather grip, no og and no dampener is 366g, 326 sw and 32.1 cm balance. I also still have a 4 stripe which weighs quite a bit less (don't recall off top of head) but has a noticeably higher sw.
 
I`m going to put my racket in for a restring but is the recommend very high tension range really viable on such an old frame?
The range seems way higher than most other early graphite sticks I have.
IMG_20251120_105225181.jpg


It`s taken me a while to find one and I`d be well miffed if it cracked during a re-string.
Does any one have experience of having one re-strung lately?
Most of my 80`s graphites have been re-strung in the 48-55 lb range depend on makers recommendations and taking off a maybe a few pounds to allow for frame age.
Should I risk 60-65lbs ?
You can always string it lower with some polly strings like im going to do with mine
 
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You can always strung it lower with some polly strings like im going to do with mine
Thanks for the suggestion Passingshot 78, I`m often a bit limited for string choice at my local re-stringers as he seem`s to be a bit old school and maybe if he strings relatively few rackets that he gets via my local independant sports shop (mostly football/cricket stuff) he doesnt carry a huge range like a Pro shop.
Pretty sure he does a poly though so I might give them a try ..I`ve read/heard a fair bit of sometimes contradictory pro/cons about poly -mostly regarding play comfort(lack of ) and extra spin. (a bit more )

I don`t play with a hugh back-swing or a lot of topspin so that won`t matter and I think the Prince is a fairly flexi frame compared to many more modern frames
 
Thanks for the suggestion Passingshot 78, I`m often a bit limited for string choice at my local re-stringers as he seem`s to be a bit old school and maybe if he strings relatively few rackets that he gets via my local independant sports shop (mostly football/cricket stuff) he doesnt carry a huge range like a Pro shop.
Pretty sure he does a poly though so I might give them a try ..I`ve read/heard a fair bit of sometimes contradictory pro/cons about poly -mostly regarding play comfort(lack of ) and extra spin. (a bit more )

I don`t play with a hugh back-swing or a lot of topspin so that won`t matter and I think the Prince is a fairly flexi frame compared to many more modern frames
POG Mp have open string pattern Also its pretty heavy racket. So i wouldnt be very worried about lack of comfort with pollys at lower tension
 
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Thanks for the suggestion Passingshot 78, I`m often a bit limited for string choice at my local re-stringers as he seem`s to be a bit old school and maybe if he strings relatively few rackets that he gets via my local independant sports shop (mostly football/cricket stuff) he doesnt carry a huge range like a Pro shop.
Pretty sure he does a poly though so I might give them a try ..I`ve read/heard a fair bit of sometimes contradictory pro/cons about poly -mostly regarding play comfort(lack of ) and extra spin. (a bit more )

I don`t play with a hugh back-swing or a lot of topspin so that won`t matter and I think the Prince is a fairly flexi frame compared to many more modern frames

I was part of the Prince Phantom 107G playtest held by Tennis Warehouse a few years back. As part of that, I pulled out my mid 1980's POG that I had strung with medium stiff 1.25 poly with a tension in the 45-48 pound range. The POG was my racquet back in the day and I have no idea how much it may have softened over the 40 years but I cannot imagine hitting my POG with any softer string than a poly. The frame is already super flexible and despite a 385 gram static weight and 355 swingweight, it feels noodly and old. I also pulled out my wife's mid-1980's Prince Precision Graphite with 40 year old Leoina 66 strings and a 40 year old leather grip to hit with too!

I find that I can play fairly well with my usual string in a foreign racquet, but put a different string into my normal racquet and I have a tough time adjusting. So if you are wanting to use your POG to actually hit and play with, I'd suggest your normal string. If you want to see what it was like back in the day and don't really care about performance, then a synthetic gut would be the way to go. I hit fairly hard and mid- to upper 40's with a 1.25 poly is more than enough tension. I'd probably go mid-50's with a synthetic gut.

Have fun!
 
I was part of the Prince Phantom 107G playtest held by Tennis Warehouse a few years back. As part of that, I pulled out my mid 1980's POG that I had strung with medium stiff 1.25 poly with a tension in the 45-48 pound range. The POG was my racquet back in the day and I have no idea how much it may have softened over the 40 years but I cannot imagine hitting my POG with any softer string than a poly. The frame is already super flexible and despite a 385 gram static weight and 355 swingweight, it feels noodly and old. I also pulled out my wife's mid-1980's Prince Precision Graphite with 40 year old Leoina 66 strings and a 40 year old leather grip to hit with too!

I find that I can play fairly well with my usual string in a foreign racquet, but put a different string into my normal racquet and I have a tough time adjusting. So if you are wanting to use your POG to actually hit and play with, I'd suggest your normal string. If you want to see what it was like back in the day and don't really care about performance, then a synthetic gut would be the way to go. I hit fairly hard and mid- to upper 40's with a 1.25 poly is more than enough tension. I'd probably go mid-50's with a synthetic gut.

Have fun!

Describing a POG as super flexible and noodly is a new one! Perhaps you have some very stiff modern frames as daily hits for comparators? The POG was 2nd highest in Prince's flexibility rating after the super-stiff Boron, and generally considered one of the stiffest rackets around in the mid-1980s. My 4 POG MPs all still feel around 65ra and clearly stiffer than the Spectrum, Response, Precision etc, let alone real noodles like Graphite Pro and Powerflex. However, I agree they certainly are comfortable enough given the foam filling, for poly in the 40s.
 
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I wouldn't consider the mids flexible either. Strung the same, they feel pretty darned comparable to my 6.1 classics that I use regularly. I've never tried an OS.

I would love to find a real RA rating on one.
 
I wouldn't consider the mids flexible either. Strung the same, they feel pretty darned comparable to my 6.1 classics that I use regularly. I've never tried an OS.

I would love to find a real RA rating on one.

I think I've seen 65ra quoted in some other threads. @Dino Lagaffe doesn't have a POG MP in his log, but he has the Spectrum Comp MP at 65ra, and the POG is officially and anecdotally stiffer. The OS is also pretty stiff, with good stability up to the top and no flutter, so probably only a few RA points lower. The thing is POGs are 100% finest old-school graphite (7 layers I believe) and foam filled, so they are comfortable too, but not really flexy unless your daily racket is a Pure Drive.
 
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I have measured some 25 one-stripe POGs so far, enough to produce some meaningful statistics for a change.

Two of the racquets had RAs in the 30s. I am quite convinced that this is the result of hidden cracks, so they are not included in the analysis.

Of the remaining 23, the lowest reading is 48 RA, the highest is 67 RA (a mint, very early Fansteel), producing a mean of 59.6 RA, a median of 59.5 RA, and a standard deviation of 5.27, over an almost perfectly symmetrical normal distribution curve.

For anyone who thinks old school racquets behaved more consistently than their modern counterpart. Think again! :)

The 48 RA POGs exhibit other unusual features that suggest a non-standard origin. If we left those out, the lowest RA becomes 52, the mean shifts up to 60.6 RA, the median shifts to 61.0 RA, with the standard deviation tightening to 3.99, over an even more perfectly symmetrical normal distribution curve.

I have only measured a single 4-stripe POG, which is really an entirely different frame from the US original in terms of manufacturing protocol. It came out to 62 RA, well within 1 SD of the average for all POGs.
 
I have measured some 25 one-stripe POGs so far, enough to produce some meaningful statistics for a change.

Two of the racquets had RAs in the 30s. I am quite convinced that this is the result of hidden cracks, so they are not included in the analysis.

Of the remaining 23, the lowest reading is 48 RA, the highest is 67 RA (a mint, very early Fansteel), producing a mean of 59.6 RA, a median of 59.5 RA, and a standard deviation of 5.27, over an almost perfectly symmetrical normal distribution curve.

For anyone who thinks old school racquets behaved more consistently than their modern counterpart. Think again! :)

The 48 RA POGs exhibit other unusual features that suggest a non-standard origin. If we left those out, the lowest RA becomes 52, the mean shifts up to 60.6 RA, the median shifts to 61.0 RA, with the standard deviation tightening to 3.99, over an even more perfectly symmetrical normal distribution curve.

I have only measured a single 4-stripe POG, which is really an entirely different frame from the US original in terms of manufacturing protocol. It came out to 62 RA, well within 1 SD of the average for all POGs.

If you're talking about the early (only oversized) models, then they do seem to be variable with some quite flexy; but we were discussing the MP model, which is clearly more consistently firm. My 1-stripe grommeted MP has very similar flex to my early 4-stripe.

Racket finder has the MP at 66ra, Racketpedia 67ra (and the OS around 63ra), Prince called it very-stiff and second in the flex ratings from 1984, and then it's in a similarly high position when the Spectrum came out and they used the well known stiffness graphic.

AI is slopping this size distinction stating 55ra, probably creating an average of your OS examples! The MP is well known as a stiff racket, with mid 60s Ra, and the later OSs were also definitely not noodles. Those early POG grommetless and single-grommet OSs should probably be in a category of their own really.
 
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Im curious how does these rsckets behave ? Theres tons of vibration or they are just dead ?

They have noticeably more give than the other frames, but the vibration isn't bad, because the increased flexibility is not uniform throughout the frame (which would indeed increase the amplitude of frame vibrations), but is limited to the areas where the frame integrity is likely compromised. On one of these racquets (both are early Fansteel, just like the 67 RA unit), several squared string holes in the shoulder region appear partially collapsed (probably the result of one too many string job at the higher end of the original recommended tension range). My guess is that these collapsing holes, or the hidden internal damages reflected by them, are responsible for the low RA readings.

As for the POG 90, I don't have nearly as many of them to conduct a proper statistical analysis, but the ones I have measured averaged 69 RA, with a low of 67 RA, and a high of just over 71 RA. This is certainly more consistent than what I got from the US-made OS units, likely thanks to the completely different production method Kunnan developed to make them, but I would have to measure many more examples to have a similarly meaningful result.

My comment regarding old school racquets being no more consistent in specs than modern ones isn't aimed at any specific make or model; it is the general conclusion I came to after measuring over 1100 racquets from different eras and origins.

There certainly were exceptions, whether due to particularly stringent manufacturing protocol or QC criteria. The 1977 Dunlop "Graphite", for instance, is an exceptionally consistent frame in terms of its flex, even though it came in multiple weights, and the balance can be a bit varied. I have measured 10 of them so far (not as many as the POGs, but these are a lot harder to come by). They produced a mean of 74.4 RA, a median of 74.5 RA, an SD of only 0.9, with a minimum of 73.0, a maximum of 75.7, and a skewness of -0.38. Nothing else I have measured (with a comparable sample size) comes even close.

Just because the present is bad doesn't mean the past is better, even though those of us who are in the declining phase of our lives tend to look back at those good ol' days with more fondness than they perhaps deserve (especially when the present seems to be losing the plot). :)
 
Describing a POG as super flexible and noodly is a new one! Perhaps you have some very stiff modern frames as daily hits for comparators? The POG was 2nd highest in Prince's flexibility rating after the super-stiff Boron, and generally considered one of the stiffest rackets around in the mid-1980s. My 4 POG MPs all still feel around 65ra and clearly stiffer than the Spectrum, Response, Precision etc, let alone real noodles like Graphite Pro and Powerflex. However, I agree they certainly are comfortable enough given the foam filling, for poly in the 40s.

Yeah, my regular racquet is 73 RA as I prefer a stiff frame with thin and cushioned strings. That being said, my POG **IS** soft. It has that vintage, flexy feel that reminds me a lot of a wood racquet. It feels like it has an RA of about 50, and just bending it against my hip, there is a LOT of give. I hit somewhat frequently with wood racquets so I am familiar with their impact feel.

My POG lived a hard and long life. I probably used it a good seven or eight years before I switched to something else, and it got strung a lot during that time. I also swing pretty hard (probably harder when I was young) so the years have taken a toll.

Here's a video I shot for the Prince Phantom 107G racquet test. My hits with my POG started around 3:25. My hits with my wife's old Prince Precision Graphite 110 with plastic throat bridge begins around 4:50.

 
Yeah, my regular racquet is 73 RA as I prefer a stiff frame with thin and cushioned strings. That being said, my POG **IS** soft. It has that vintage, flexy feel that reminds me a lot of a wood racquet. It feels like it has an RA of about 50, and just bending it against my hip, there is a LOT of give. I hit somewhat frequently with wood racquets so I am familiar with their impact feel.

My POG lived a hard and long life. I probably used it a good seven or eight years before I switched to something else, and it got strung a lot during that time. I also swing pretty hard (probably harder when I was young) so the years have taken a toll.

Here's a video I shot for the Prince Phantom 107G racquet test. My hits with my POG started around 3:25. My hits with my wife's old Prince Precision Graphite 110 with plastic throat bridge begins around 4:50.


Nice hitting, your shots with the POG looked quite similar depth/launch to the Phantom 107.

Yeah, i was more speaking about the norm for the racket, rather than any individual sticks. 50RA would make your POG more flexible the entire range of Prince rackets, except perhaps the Classic aluminium and Woodie. But as @Sanglier indicated, variation was wide with the early models.
 
Nice hitting, your shots with the POG looked quite similar depth/launch to the Phantom 107.

Yeah, i was more speaking about the norm for the racket, rather than any individual sticks. 50RA would make your POG more flexible the entire range of Prince rackets, except perhaps the Classic aluminium and Woodie. But as @Sanglier indicated, variation was wide with the early models.

Yeah, they both are pretty high launch angle racquets, which I kind of expected and which is a much easier adjustment for me than a low launch angle. But it feels like they get their launch angle in different ways. The Phantom 107G has wide string spacing, and the POG feels like it's from hoop flex and longer dwell allowing the strings to lift the ball. The weight different between the two is probably 50 grams, which also helps increase launch angle for the POG.

I have a Woodie! And like the POG it is also strung with a poly, I think in the 38 pound range. I should bring it and the POG out at the same time - I've never done that.
 
They have noticeably more give than the other frames, but the vibration isn't bad, because the increased flexibility is not uniform throughout the frame (which would indeed increase the amplitude of frame vibrations), but is limited to the areas where the frame integrity is likely compromised. On one of these racquets (both are early Fansteel, just like the 67 RA unit), several squared string holes in the shoulder region appear partially collapsed (probably the result of one too many string job at the higher end of the original recommended tension range). My guess is that these collapsing holes, or the hidden internal damages reflected by them, are responsible for the low RA readings.

As for the POG 90, I don't have nearly as many of them to conduct a proper statistical analysis, but the ones I have measured averaged 69 RA, with a low of 67 RA, and a high of just over 71 RA. This is certainly more consistent than what I got from the US-made OS units, likely thanks to the completely different production method Kunnan developed to make them, but I would have to measure many more examples to have a similarly meaningful result.

My comment regarding old school racquets being no more consistent in specs than modern ones isn't aimed at any specific make or model; it is the general conclusion I came to after measuring over 1100 racquets from different eras and origins.

There certainly were exceptions, whether due to particularly stringent manufacturing protocol or QC criteria. The 1977 Dunlop "Graphite", for instance, is an exceptionally consistent frame in terms of its flex, even though it came in multiple weights, and the balance can be a bit varied. I have measured 10 of them so far (not as many as the POGs, but these are a lot harder to come by). They produced a mean of 74.4 RA, a median of 74.5 RA, an SD of only 0.9, with a minimum of 73.0, a maximum of 75.7, and a skewness of -0.38. Nothing else I have measured (with a comparable sample size) comes even close.

Just because the present is bad doesn't mean the past is better, even though those of us who are in the declining phase of our lives tend to look back at those good ol' days with more fondness than they perhaps deserve (especially when the present seems to be losing the plot). :)

From Your experirnce

How much impact on frames RA may have factors like stringing and hitting?

Does the rackets really going softer signifitantly?
 
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Yeah, my regular racquet is 73 RA as I prefer a stiff frame with thin and cushioned strings. That being said, my POG **IS** soft. It has that vintage, flexy feel that reminds me a lot of a wood racquet. It feels like it has an RA of about 50, and just bending it against my hip, there is a LOT of give. I hit somewhat frequently with wood racquets so I am familiar with their impact feel.

My POG lived a hard and long life. I probably used it a good seven or eight years before I switched to something else, and it got strung a lot during that time. I also swing pretty hard (probably harder when I was young) so the years have taken a toll.

Here's a video I shot for the Prince Phantom 107G racquet test. My hits with my POG started around 3:25. My hits with my wife's old Prince Precision Graphite 110 with plastic throat bridge begins around 4:50.

I like your McEnroe forehand.
 
From Your experirnce

How much impact on frames RA may have factors like stringing and hitting?

Does the rackets really going softer signifitantly?

This question comes up regularly. Unfortunately, I have no useful data that can help answer it with anything approaching objectivity.

Most of us have had favorite racquets that were played over many years and restrung numerous times. Some of us felt little change in how our racquets behaved, others noticed significant differences. However, none of us (to my knowledge) had gone into this using the approach of a science experiment, with a large enough sample size to produce statistically significant data on how these racquets degraded over time, while controlling for all variables, and compiling a full data table that recorded measured flex before and after each play session, with cumulative play time, number and intensity of strokes, court impacts, string type and tension, weather and temperature, etc., for the duration of what would likely have been a multi-year study. Without these data, we can never escape the tyranny of our personal "feel", which is itself mutable over time.

I have compiled lots of data on a wide variety of racquets (mostly first generation graphites), virtually all of which represent single points in time, with no longitudinal followups, so they offer no insight at all on the true effects of material degradation. The few repeat measurements I have done over the years were to ensure that my results are consistent and replicable; they were random spot checks for my measuring instrument, not the racquets.

However, all materials are subject to degradation, carbon fiber and epoxy are no exception. As cured epoxy has a much lower tensile strength than carbon fiber, with a more limited service life, it will likely fail before the carbon fiber, whether from excessive string tension or cumulative stress (all that kinetic energy not absorbed by the ball had to go somewhere and do something else). When an old frame tires out from wear and tear, it's most likely because the epoxy in some critical areas of the frame had lost enough integrity to actually affect the feel, as the weakened epoxy matrix is no longer able to distribute the impact stress evenly among the carbon fibers in these areas. Given that not all epoxies are created equal, and frame geometry combined with carbon fiber density and orientation determine how the racquet feels to the user, not all frames age and degrade the same way even in the hands of the same person. This is why there is no universally applicable answer to the question of how a racquet dies from abuse and/or old age without the support of physical data. There is just too much going on for us to pinpoint the actual contribution of any single variable by "feel" alone.

When POG was first released, the QC criteria required the frame to survive being "shot" thousands of times without significant damage at point blank range from a long-barreled ball machine. They even boasted that the frame would only break after many tens of thousands of such shots. I can no longer remember what that exact figure is, only that by my seat-of-the-pants estimate at the time, it represented about 3 years worth of strokes by someone who played twice a week, but I don't even remember what my own assumptions were when I came up with that estimate. Of course, before the frame fails completely at the end of that period, it would have degraded gradually and ever more significantly as the micro-damages piled up (the RA plot over time would probably look like a logarithmic decay curve... before you reach the precipice, the racquet might feel quite normal, once you pass that, the drop off becomes very noticeable). A three year lifespan might seem very brief, but not every stroke taken by an average player is with the full force of a flat serve, so the actual practical lifespan of the racquet is much longer than that for us mortals, though it does give you some rough idea of how much abuse a graphite frame can take before it stops "feeling" right.
 
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On the takeback at least, it bares some resemblance to Mac’s.

McEnroe is 20 months older than me so we grew up in the same technique era. I didn't start playing until middle school, when I realized that the prettiest girls played tennis and so I took it up. I'm sure by then he already had ten years of tennis under his belt. But I never remember being a continental-grip-only player. I used eastern forehand and backhand, and after a two decade hiatus from the game, I somehow migrated to semi-western forehand and strong eastern backhand.
 
On the takeback at least, it bares some resemblance to Mac’s.

Okay, I know this is huge thread drift but since two people now thought that, it got me worried that my work to have a more modern swing had failed pretty miserably.


McEnroe's stringbed remains nearly perfectly vertical throughout his swing, and the racquet head only barely rises above his hand height on balls at or above his chest level.

My racquet head on the takeback is always above my hand position, pointing upwards at around a 60 degree angle, with the stringbed initially pointing towards the back wall before dropping down into a "pat the dog" position, before rotating 90 degrees to square up with the ball. totally different! Whew!

To get everything back on track with this thread, here's a picture of my old POG and my wife's old Precision Graphite with the plastic throat bridge!

20240520_163830.jpg
 
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