Pro Staff 6.0 85 with a black primer?

[gymrat76]

I came across a PS 6.0 Mid (85sq) with a black primer. It is identical to Chicagos/St. Vincents (HPQ code, code under W, black stickers in throat with 65-70 tension range, etc.)

Though only thing that sets it apart is the black primer.
Did anyone come across a SV or Chicago with a black primer?

 

[Azzurri]

I came across a PS 6.0 Mid (85sq) with a black primer. It is identical to Chicagos/St. Vincents (HPQ code, code under W, black stickers in throat with 65-70 tension range, etc.)

Though only thing that sets it apart is the black primer.
Did anyone come across a SV or Chicago with a black primer?

do the early Taiwan racquets have a black primer? Interesting. If the early TW do have this black primer, you may have a SV finished in TW..very rare.

try to contact VGP or Drakulie.

 

[gymrat76]

do the early Taiwan racquets have a black primer? Interesting. If the early TW do have this black primer, you may have a SV finished in TW..very rare.

try to contact VGP or Drakulie.

I do not think this is a Taiwanese. Like I wrote, everything is identical to what a Chicago or a St. Vincent would be like:
Matte finish, two black stickers inside throat (stickers say: 65-70lbs tension, weight 11.6-12.3 unstrung, etc.) White buttcap with red W, code under W is HPQ.

Again, it appears to be an early Chicago or SV, BUT has a black primer.

 

[VGP]

hey gymrat76 - no trace of red anywhere?

Initially I too thought it was one like drakulie says could be a SV finished in Taiwan, but if it's got the earlier stickers on them that's unlikely.

Taiwanese frames have a grey primer that can be seen through scrapes.

Is your racket in pristine condition? But even unused Chicago/SV still have red spots seen at the grommet drill holes.....

I suppose pics would help.....

 

[drakulie]

Interesting.

1. does it have a bumber guard??

2. are the troat grommets one piece, or 3 separate pieces?

a) If 3 separate pieces, are the grommets very raised???

3. Is there a copyright (r) symbol next to the "W" on the buttcap???

Pictures would be nice, but if you don't have any, from the info you provided so far it would be hard to determine. Maybe VGP will chime in.

Based on the stickers, it would most likely be an earlier version (chicago/st vincent), but I would need to know more.

 

[gymrat76]

Well, this is not my racquet, but I am interested in purchasing it. I will post the pics in few minutes...
The seller is saying..or alleging, that, this racquet is most likely a pre-St.Vincent production out of Chicago

 

[VGP]

is it lunchbreak or something.....we all converged at the same time.

 

[gymrat76]

 

[gymrat76]

LOL Actually I am in Europe now. So more like an evening break here lol.

Seller's words in verbatim: "Due to the black primer and the reduced upper grommet this raquet is likely even part of the Pre-St. Vincent production in Chicago, IL"

IMO, everything is identical to an early Chicago/SV, but what makes it interesting is that, the seller points out to a black primer...

 

[VGP]

Looks like an early SV to me (I say that based solely on the buttcap code).

Perhaps the seller doesn't know what to look for with regards to the primer. You could get an SV for Chicago price.........

 

[drakulie]

^^I guess what the seller means by "reduced upper grommets", is that it has no bumper guard.

If this is true, it is most likely a very early vincent/ chicago, and I bet it probably has the red primer too. I would lean more towwards Chicago.

VGP???? what say you???

 

[VGP]

It's one of those "transitional" frames....

If it's in decent shape and the price is right, why not?

I've got a couple transitional frames that no one talks about. Every detail is pure late Taiwanese, except the country sticker under the W on the buttcap says CHINA. No consequence really, just an interesting novelty......just like the SEX code on some Taiwanese.

 

[gymrat76]

VGP - Well, he owns like 4-5 Pro Staffs, from Chicago to SV to Taiwanese to even a new Jap market limited version of 6.0 85. So I assume he knows what he is talking about. Because, he is also selling a SV version, and he points out that red primer is visible. So he seems to distinguish the primers between the two.

Drakulie - I am pretty sure what he meant was that it has no bumper guard.

 

[VGP]

*shrugs shoulders*

....meh.

 

[gymrat76]

VGP - I already bought one. I believe mine is also a transitional stick perhaps?
I posted pics of it here before, but no one noticed I guess.
These are from my Pro Staff:
One black sticker inside throat with grip size and "55-65lbs" written on it.
"Midsize" on both sides of the frame.
No bumper
White butt cap with red W. And the code under the W logo is a "JTB"
As for the red primer, I looked very careful everywhere on the frame, but can not seem to find any. Except that, there is a tiny red dot on the inside part of the hoop between string holes at the very center of the racquet.

Do you think mine is a transitional racquet also? I could post the pics if you would like.

 

[gymrat76]

 

[VGP]

drakulie - I see why you're leaning Chicago.....no bumperguard, high recommended tension sticker......

 

[gymrat76]

Well how about my racquet?? (With large size pics just above) Do you guys think it is a SV or a Taiwanese?

I am no expert, but imo, everything indicates towards a SV, but with a code of JTB

 

[gymrat76]

I guess PS experts reported back to work

 

[khw72004]

JTB, its prob a taiwanese

 

[VGP]

I guess PS experts reported back to work

I've been at work......I'm in a little dark room doing confocal microscopy.

Regarding your pics, as far as I know the Taiwanese PS85s never came with the stickers on the inside of the throat. The cosmetics were that of the late SV when production moved to Taiwan. Inside the throat had the decals that describe PWS and recommended tension.

 

[Pushmaster]

I'm no expert, but I think the L5 is a SV, and the L4 is Taiwanese. I think Drak would be the guy you want to verify this with though being the resident expert (one of them anyway) on the PS 85. What's the going price on a good Taiwanese? Are they more desirable than the Chinese?

 

[gymrat76]

I am no expert, either. But I think, a Taiwanese version -and its case- do look like as in the following pics. In essence, as VGP mentioned, Taiwanese come with decals inside the throat explaining about pws and tension range, whereas mine comes with a black sticker same as older San Vincents. (Note: throat pic came out to be small, but notice the decal writing inside the throat)

 

[VGP]

The case pictured above is for a Chinese model. You can tell by the fonts used. They didn't use that script until after the "block italic" Pro Staff Chinese frames.

The cases sold with the Taiwanese PS85s at first glance look like the ones sold with Chicagos and SVs, but there are differences.

Perhaps I'll post pics if I've got the time......

 

[drakulie]

JTB, its prob a taiwanese

It's definitely not a Taiwan model. tawain models typcially have flatter throat grommets. Only the very earliest Vincents, and all chicagos have the raised throat grommets.

 

[gymrat76]

It's definitely not a Taiwan model. tawain models typcially have flatter throat grommets. Only the very earliest Vincents, and all chicagos have the raised throat grommets.

Drakulie, what exactly do you think my JTB coded racquet is, then?
If it is not a Taiwanese, that leaves it with Chinese and Chicago, which are highly unlikely, imo. (Because, earlier Chicagos/SVs usually have 65-70lbs black tension sticker whereas mine comes with a 55-65lbs one. And as for Chinese, I think it is clear that it is not Chinese)

And if you think it is a San Vincent, how do you explain the JTB code?

 

[drakulie]

^^^You could rule out it being a china model. Forget about it. It is also not a taiwan model.

Few things that make me lean to chicago.

1. All chicago models had the sticker 65-70. The earlier Vincents also had this sticker, but later went down in tension.

2. All chicagos have the raised throat grommets. The earlier Vincents also had this, but later they got shorter in height.

3. All chicagos have the "W" with **NO** (R) symbol next to it. Some of the earlier Vincents were also like this, but later had the copyright symbol (R) next to the "W".

4. All chicagos are bumperless. The earlier vincents were also bumperless, but later included the bumper guard.

5. All Vincents (that I know of) have the red primer. To my knowledge, the Chicagos also have the red primer, but there is talk the earliest of the Chicagos had black primer. I have yet to see one, which is why I said it probably does have the red primer. If you do buy it, let us know.

6. Also, many Chicagos have the code ending in "Q". This mark is not limited to Vincent frames.

 

[VGP]

drakulie - I think gymrat76 is now talking about the racket he's showing in post #16. That's the one with the JTB code. That looks like a SV to me. One of my SVs has the buttcap code QTA.

Regarding your point 6 in your list above. I was under the impression that Chicagos buttcap codes ended in 'I' which kinda makes sense if it could be a reference to Illinois.

The one that he's looking to buy (the one that the thread is about) looks like it's a Q that looks like an O.

Regarding point 3 in your list above, you make reference to this being on Chicagos and early SVs. One of my SVs lacks the (R) symbol, but it has all the hallmarks of a later model.

I think this thread is indicative of why I like this frame so much. Its been made so long with so many iterations. Each one blends into the next. Now, alas it has been shelved forever. Now it's part of the folklore of boards like TTW and awash with details mixed into internet auctions.

I love it!

Just like my other hobby......I like trying to know what distinguishes a '54 Strat from a '57 from a '59 from a '62 from a '69 from a '72......and so on.

 

[drakulie]

drakulie - I think gymrat76 is now talking about the racket he's showing in post #16. That's the one with the JTB code. That looks like a SV to me. One of my SVs has the buttcap code QTA.

Regarding your point 6 in your list above. I was under the impression that Chicagos buttcap codes ended in 'I' which kinda makes sense if it could be a reference to Illinois.

The one that he's looking to buy (the one that the thread is about) looks like it's a Q that looks like an O.

Regarding point 3 in your list above, you make reference to this being on Chicagos and early SVs. One of my SVs lacks the (R) symbol, but it has all the hallmarks of a later model.

I think this thread is indicative of why I like this frame so much. Its been made so long with so many iterations. Each one blends into the next. Now, alas it has been shelved forever. Now it's part of the folklore of boards like TTW and awash with details mixed into internet auctions. I love it!

VGP, great post, especially the part in italics. I said this same thing a while back ago. There have been so many subtle changes in the line (especially with the Vincents).

Like you said, one of your vincents has no (R), but has the latter indicators of a late vincent.

In regards to the "Q" code. I have owned, and have seen several other chicagos with the "q". I also saw one with plastic still on handle with the code ending in "X".

Typcially, when someone asks what modle is it (chicago or vincent), I try to do common demoninators to give a best guess (knowing there are a few "straggler" frames that may have one indicator that "doesn't" belong).

As for the frame that is owned by the OP, yes I agree it seems to be a vincent. (photo 16)

 

[Blank]

Maybe those scratches are not deep enough to reveal the red primer?

 

[gymrat76]

Well, I am enjoying these superbly informative posts as well!

Well I am glad mine is a Vinnie -even though it has a JTB code as opposed to a Q-ending one-

Drakulie, as for the Pro Staff I originally asked at the start of the thread -that is supposedly have a black primer- you mentioned that, there is talk of the earliest of the Chicagos having black primer, but that you did not come across any yet. The seller also says that this is a very early Chicago.

If it does have a black primer, do you think it is anything more valuable than a red-primered Chicago/SV?

I have never come across any threads/posts talking about a black primer on Pro Staffs. Can you give some more information on this, if you know of any?

 

[VGP]

VGP, great post, especially the part in italics. I said this same thing a while back ago. There have been so many subtle changes in the line (especially with the Vincents).

Thanks drakulie. I also wanted to add PS85s (like Strats) for me aren't only cool to look at and learn about, they're great to play too.

The "straggler" frame is always fun to come across. It would be foolish for Wilson to throw away perfectly good parts during a transitional period.

Stratocasters by Fender Musical Instruments Corp. are the same way. I'm not rich enough to have the truly collectible ones, but I've got a USA made Strat that's a real blend between the American Standard series and the American series (circa 2000).....now they've reintroduced the American Standard moniker. Guitar guys will know what I mean.

I doubt that "black primer" would make that frame any more valuable. It's just a novelty in production if that's the case. Blank, even new, unused PS85s still show red primer around the drill holes for the grommets......

 

[gymrat76]

Thanks to you, as well, VGP. It is great to learn about these special frames.
True, they are great to look at. Most people are bumping up the price in e-bay for the purpose of hanging them on a wall. Though in my case, I am trying to have a few under my pillow for the purpose of playing!

(I know it is not the perfect place to mention this, but as you know I lucked into a new and a hardly used Max 200Gs..these are very VERY addictive frames as well!! Which I never would have thought of!)

Well, as for guitars...now that is a total different ball game! As I do not know a thing about it, don't make me get started talking about my fitness hobby!

As for the black-primered racquet, agree, I do not think it will bring any additional value. Au contrarie, it will drop the value since people will more highly regard the red primer over black. (Same as my JTB coded racquet's being regarded as lesser compared to a "Q" SV.

 

[plasma]

let's see pics of both side beams!
no blk buttcap, not chicago (although I'm no expert) looks like a vinny to me although could be Taiwanese. Give me a couple of weeks with it...i'll show you some red primer!

 

[gymrat76]

let's see pics of both side beams!
no blk buttcap, not chicago (although I'm no expert) looks like a vinny to me although could be Taiwanese. Give me a couple of weeks with it...i'll show you some red primer!

Well well, I don't know if you can show me some red primer in couple of weeks, but I bet you could show me some red leather in seconds, judging by your zip code lol...jack kramer!

 

[plasma]

c'mon gymrat, no -one wants to hear your fruity fantasies, lol, that was a pretty good one though...you've never been the same since I got you strung out on 200g's...just lookin for that one last hit...you're a rackaholic, gymrat, you need help!!! try the 200g pro for even more kick ass performance!

 

[gymrat76]

c'mon gymrat, no -one wants to hear your fruity fantasies, lol, that was a pretty good one though...you've never been the same since I got you strung out on 200g's...just lookin for that one last hit...you're a rackaholic, gymrat, you need help!!! try the 200g pro for even more kick ass performance!

LOL yeah, I denied at first, then I became angry for buying too many sticks...Now I wholeheartedly embrace and accept it...I am a rackaholic!! Just wanted to shared this with fellow RA members!

Seriously, though, the 200Gs proved to be something out of this world. But the real reason for not selling them is, due to a dream I saw. In the dream, I was chattin' as usual with my 200Gs. All of a sudden, they were crying out for help. They were begging me: "Please, do not sell us! We do not want to be imprisoned in a closet crammed with latex and leather stuff in a Cisco zip-coded house for the rest of our lives!". So, I did a good deed

As for 200G Pros...do not tempt me for a one last hit!!!