I see Head "pro stock" frames on **** They sell for much more than the cost of the frame you could buy at the store. I see that these sticks are heavier, but what are the other major differences of thes pro stock frames. Are different materials used? Thanks for helping me to understand.
Pro Stock Rackets
- Thread starter Rjtennis
- Start date
CANTGETENOUGHTENNIS!
Rookie
ya these are the actual frames that pros use. they are way way way softer and are made from good ole graphite not any of the B.S. materials used currently in the current racquet industry. theyre very hard to get a hold of, especially if youre not a head sponsored player.
vsbabolat
G.O.A.T.
Out of curiosity do you guys happen to own any of the "Pro Stock" frames?
vsbabolat
G.O.A.T.
The quality of materials used in these frames is the same. The major difference is that these frames are manufactured much lighter and then CUSTOMIZED to a individual players desired specification. Unless you are talking about a Pro Tour 630, Prestige Classic 600, i.Prestige MP being under the paint job or one of the open string pattern options for the Radical MP and Prestige Mid then the high price they are asking is not worth it.
dgoran
Hall of Fame
Listen to this guy...vsbabolat is very much the only original source of information on head racket rest of us are only repeating what we heard or learned on these boards if you don't believe me look up join dates of many of the "head experts" wannabes and look at their posts around thise dates they are full of questions about the very frames they claim to know about. What is worse some take misinformation they learned here and heard somewhere else and spread it as their knowledge which is very tricky for a new user such as yourself that is aspiring to learn more about prostock frames.
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CANTGETENOUGHTENNIS!
Rookie
no i do actually know about pro stocks, trust me, my friend works for head and gives me info on all this. My grandma also worked for head when it was still in colorado and she knows about all of this. I know what im talking about but i dont know about the other noob
.
vsbabolat: i did own one but then sold it just because the resale prices went through the freaking roof. its sooooo ridiculous to play with. its feels like butter with gobs of control.truly an amazing series of sticks.
.vsbabolat: i did own one but then sold it just because the resale prices went through the freaking roof. its sooooo ridiculous to play with. its feels like butter with gobs of control.truly an amazing series of sticks.
vsbabolat
G.O.A.T.
no i do actually know about pro stocks, trust me, my friend works for head and gives me info on all this. My grandma also worked for head when it was still in colorado and she knows about all of this. I know what im talking about but i dont know about the other noob
vsbabolat: i did own one but then sold it just because the resale prices went through the freaking roof. its sooooo ridiculous to play with. its feels like butter with gobs of control.truly an amazing series of sticks.
Ok. Which one did you have? They all play very different.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
> but what are the other major differences of thes pro stock
> frames
It might be a easier to get an XL version.
If you have the bug, you could just try to buy one to try out or you could ask a lot of questions or read other posts about them. They're not magic frames but they may be something that you like that's hard to find in retail frames.
If you don't like them, they're pretty easy to sell, as long as you avoid frames that weigh a ton and/or have unpopular grips.
There are retail frames around that you might find that make for reasonable customization platforms. Travlerajm has a few posts about this here and there.
If you want to see the buying and selling process, go to the String Forums in the For Sale section. Buyers and sellers are usually not that good about answering general questions unless they are related to transactions. Everyone kind of assumes that everyone else knows what they are doing so there's no manual for newcomers.
> frames
It might be a easier to get an XL version.
If you have the bug, you could just try to buy one to try out or you could ask a lot of questions or read other posts about them. They're not magic frames but they may be something that you like that's hard to find in retail frames.
If you don't like them, they're pretty easy to sell, as long as you avoid frames that weigh a ton and/or have unpopular grips.
There are retail frames around that you might find that make for reasonable customization platforms. Travlerajm has a few posts about this here and there.
If you want to see the buying and selling process, go to the String Forums in the For Sale section. Buyers and sellers are usually not that good about answering general questions unless they are related to transactions. Everyone kind of assumes that everyone else knows what they are doing so there's no manual for newcomers.
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West Coast Ace
G.O.A.T.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
Your FIRST line of the post simply discredited the rest of the mumbling...
I do agree with you about the VS knowledge, however, there are a few others with a great info on Head stuff.
Additionally, a few others have deep releationships with the major racket customizers that can also provide a credible info.
And of course, a few here know a few Pros that are playing with these sticks. Seems like the lower raked the pro, the more he knows about the guts of these rackets...
One thing NOT mentioned in the VSBABOLAT reply is that these Pro stock frames indeed do come in different layup versions that is why the sticker under the pallets says the Engineering code (ex: TGK238.4 and the extension like A1 or B1 or...). I have seen flexier and stiffer of them ,with the same TGK code.
Of course, some of them have stuff injected deep into the frame changing the playability characteristics totally (weight, balance, feel, sound, flex...)
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I've got a few prestige classics with a liquidmetal paintjob...They are 90 inch head size. And they weigh in at 337 grams unstrung and the balance is the same as a PS85. It's a really awesome racquet with loads of control. I got them from a top wta player.
The real difference I think between the retail version and the pro stock version is the added stability and control in the pro stock versions...of course this could also be due to the smaller head size and added weight.
I've got pics too if anyone is interested.
The real difference I think between the retail version and the pro stock version is the added stability and control in the pro stock versions...of course this could also be due to the smaller head size and added weight.
I've got pics too if anyone is interested.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
What do you mean by this?
PC600 for you and I has the same head size as the Pro Stock (PT10)
vsbabolat
G.O.A.T.
Not to mention the same control and stability.
dgoran
Hall of Fame
Power Player
Bionic Poster
He's mad because VSB nailed it. The sticks are not worth paying so much extra for.
They are expensive but if you find a stick you really like then it may be worth it. I play with the PT57A's, granted this is the same as the PT 630 but I play with it extended and I like it lighter than the stock PT 630, so the only real way I can get my hands on a perfect feeling stick is to go with the pro stock and customize it to how I like it.
I have gone thru my phases and I have owned several others (TGK 238.1, 238.4, 262.1, 260.1 and Wilson H22). All of those hit nice but there are possibilities out there in stock frames that can come close to the feel of those in my opinion. I just had a hard time finding anything close to the PT57A from a stock company...
I have gone thru my phases and I have owned several others (TGK 238.1, 238.4, 262.1, 260.1 and Wilson H22). All of those hit nice but there are possibilities out there in stock frames that can come close to the feel of those in my opinion. I just had a hard time finding anything close to the PT57A from a stock company...
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
How did you get the idea that I am mad?
And why would I get mad if what VSB said was correct?
Do you ever ask yourself: "Do I make sense?"
Power Player
Bionic Poster
It makes sense, but I think it is overblown. People spend $300+ on used 57As and I am pretty sure that there are other sticks out there that would work for them.
I had a TGK and it was a very nice stick, but tracking down another and getting it matched..etc became a chore.
I also discovered that ProKennex makes racquets that feel as good or if not better than the ProStocks, and they are rather inexpensive.
I also owned a PC600, which was a great stick..very very nice. But unless you grew up using that racquet, it will not be easy to use in today's game.
I had a TGK and it was a very nice stick, but tracking down another and getting it matched..etc became a chore.
I also discovered that ProKennex makes racquets that feel as good or if not better than the ProStocks, and they are rather inexpensive.
I also owned a PC600, which was a great stick..very very nice. But unless you grew up using that racquet, it will not be easy to use in today's game.
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Power Player
Bionic Poster
You seem mad now. And I believe I make perfect sense.
What does not is people spending $300 plus on used racquets.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
What you believe may not be correct...along with your belief that I may be mad...
Power Player
Bionic Poster
You don't have to take it personally. We all do not have to agree, but I guess you don't see it that way. I explained my POV.
If you weren't mad, why have you taken little snipes in the last 2 posts?
If you weren't mad, why have you taken little snipes in the last 2 posts?
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
> What does not is people spending $300 plus on used racquets.
Well, many pro stocks can be had for less and the price often includes international shipping and strings.
That said some people think that spending $3,000 on a laptop or $5,000 on a desktop is crazy. Or that paying $450 a night for a hotel in NYC is ridiculous. People are free to purchase what they want to with their funds. Who am I to judge the purchasing decisions of others.
Well, many pro stocks can be had for less and the price often includes international shipping and strings.
That said some people think that spending $3,000 on a laptop or $5,000 on a desktop is crazy. Or that paying $450 a night for a hotel in NYC is ridiculous. People are free to purchase what they want to with their funds. Who am I to judge the purchasing decisions of others.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
Once again, I said it makes sense, but the prices are overblown. I am not judging anyone for spending the money. It just does not make sense to me when there are so many great racquets out there right now.
dr325i
G.O.A.T.
Because I am checking if you can get mad...
Not mad at all buddy.
I don't own any of the TGK frames, behind me right now.
Also, "Goran's kissing ass mail" reply had a point -- not that I am an expert on the subject but there are OTHERS (like PT630 for example, etc) that are up there with VSB...
Power Player
Bionic Poster
I think we all respect VSB because he has come through over and over again when it comes to accurate info.
Think about if you are about to drop $200 or so on a used TGK and want to know if the materials in the racquet are different from retail.
Well he will tell you - no, they are not. The layup is most likely not the same though.
For a long time many people swore up and down that the youtek/microgel PJs were not the same material as retail. VSB has maintained that they are. And after owning one of my own, I realize that once again he is correct.
Think about if you are about to drop $200 or so on a used TGK and want to know if the materials in the racquet are different from retail.
Well he will tell you - no, they are not. The layup is most likely not the same though.
For a long time many people swore up and down that the youtek/microgel PJs were not the same material as retail. VSB has maintained that they are. And after owning one of my own, I realize that once again he is correct.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
> Once again, I said it makes sense, but the prices are overblown. I am
> not judging anyone for spending the money. It just does not make sense
> to me when there are so many great racquets out there right now.
I trade stocks and I see ridiculous valuations on the high side and on
the low side.
In the abstract, what matters is the market for a good or service. At
the moment, the market for a new PT57A seems to be about $500. Is that
cheap? Is that expensive? Clearly, to many people, it is not expensive.
Also, clearly to many, it is not cheap. Who is right? For the trader,
the market is right.
Now you talk about a substitute good - the retail frame. Is it really
a substitute good? I don't see the market behavior reflecting that. It
appears that the pro stock market relation to the retail market is as
a complementary good.
Yes, there are a lot of nice racquets out there. I've enjoyed my
KPS88s for several years. But Wilson discontinued them. I think that
Pro Kennex is one of the better companies out there for making the
same frame year-in and year-out but most of the other companies out
there run models for about three years. It would be nice to have
something consistent - the PT57a seems to be one of them. I do not
know enough about the TGKs to understand if they are the same over
time - the numbers appear to correspond with characteristics and
paintjobs. I will have to look at the next generation to see if they
keep the same characteristics over time.
On the 260.2, it appears that they just change the paintjob and keep
the number the same.
> For a long time many people swore up and down that the
> youtek/microgel PJs were not the same material as retail. VSB has
> maintained that they are. And after owning one of my own, I realize
> that once again he is correct.
I just post my observations as I've only been playing around with this
stuff for a few months.
If you want to be sure of materials science, I guess that you should
buy one, cut it up and have it analyzed.
The thing is that I play for enjoyment and fitness and I think that
most here do the same. What's the issue with spending a few dollars
for fun and to satisfy my curiousity?
> not judging anyone for spending the money. It just does not make sense
> to me when there are so many great racquets out there right now.
I trade stocks and I see ridiculous valuations on the high side and on
the low side.
In the abstract, what matters is the market for a good or service. At
the moment, the market for a new PT57A seems to be about $500. Is that
cheap? Is that expensive? Clearly, to many people, it is not expensive.
Also, clearly to many, it is not cheap. Who is right? For the trader,
the market is right.
Now you talk about a substitute good - the retail frame. Is it really
a substitute good? I don't see the market behavior reflecting that. It
appears that the pro stock market relation to the retail market is as
a complementary good.
Yes, there are a lot of nice racquets out there. I've enjoyed my
KPS88s for several years. But Wilson discontinued them. I think that
Pro Kennex is one of the better companies out there for making the
same frame year-in and year-out but most of the other companies out
there run models for about three years. It would be nice to have
something consistent - the PT57a seems to be one of them. I do not
know enough about the TGKs to understand if they are the same over
time - the numbers appear to correspond with characteristics and
paintjobs. I will have to look at the next generation to see if they
keep the same characteristics over time.
On the 260.2, it appears that they just change the paintjob and keep
the number the same.
> For a long time many people swore up and down that the
> youtek/microgel PJs were not the same material as retail. VSB has
> maintained that they are. And after owning one of my own, I realize
> that once again he is correct.
I just post my observations as I've only been playing around with this
stuff for a few months.
If you want to be sure of materials science, I guess that you should
buy one, cut it up and have it analyzed.
The thing is that I play for enjoyment and fitness and I think that
most here do the same. What's the issue with spending a few dollars
for fun and to satisfy my curiousity?
Power Player
Bionic Poster
I am not sure why you are being so defensive about this. I bought a TGK as well to satisfy my curiosity and I am simply posting what I believe to be true to save other people the money in case they are just curious.
Enjoy the frames. I understand the concept of supply and demand. Plus you are modding them, and that is a very good reason to own the sticks, if not the main reason.
I also have hit with Dgoran's PT630 (PT57) and it felt great. At the same time, you can ask him and he will tell you that the game is easier for him with his Pure Drives.
At the end of the day, you can do anything you want. I have gotten private emails from a fair amount of people asking me if it is worth it to buy a TGK because they really should not be spending that much on a stick, but are curious.
I am posting for those people, not someone with the money to afford to be curious. That is all. Nothing personal against anyone using pro stocks in any way. I see nothing wrong with dropping the cash if you have it, but I also agree with VSB in that they are overpriced.
Enjoy the frames. I understand the concept of supply and demand. Plus you are modding them, and that is a very good reason to own the sticks, if not the main reason.
I also have hit with Dgoran's PT630 (PT57) and it felt great. At the same time, you can ask him and he will tell you that the game is easier for him with his Pure Drives.
At the end of the day, you can do anything you want. I have gotten private emails from a fair amount of people asking me if it is worth it to buy a TGK because they really should not be spending that much on a stick, but are curious.
I am posting for those people, not someone with the money to afford to be curious. That is all. Nothing personal against anyone using pro stocks in any way. I see nothing wrong with dropping the cash if you have it, but I also agree with VSB in that they are overpriced.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
I would love to see a FAQ on pro stock racquets. Or maybe one for Head racquets. Basically what they are, the pros and cons, what happens in trading, dealing with pallets, butt-caps, grommets, custom grips, stiffness and feel, and alternatives. I think that you can learn a lot of this from materials already out there but you have to do a lot of hunting around for it.
Those that can't afford all of the little additional costs (okay, sometimes they are not so little) probably shouldn't bother with them. I'm of the type that would have shelled out $4k or more for Djokovich's Wimbledon frame if I could have figured out how to do it. Collectables are definitely a different thing compared to hitting with pro stocks.
I'll try to put together a little framework for a FAQ for Head Pro Stocks but I don't know how far I will get as I have a lot of code to write today.
Those that can't afford all of the little additional costs (okay, sometimes they are not so little) probably shouldn't bother with them. I'm of the type that would have shelled out $4k or more for Djokovich's Wimbledon frame if I could have figured out how to do it. Collectables are definitely a different thing compared to hitting with pro stocks.
I'll try to put together a little framework for a FAQ for Head Pro Stocks but I don't know how far I will get as I have a lot of code to write today.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
Well I agree, but there will probably never be a FAQ because many people disagree on things. Like some folks will tell you that TGKs are %100 graphite and not the same materials as the retail.
Folks like myself will tell you that's not true. That the only difference is the layup.
Here is the next challenge..you get 1 TGK that you love and want another. Well if you do not get the same layup from the first one, it will not feel the same. So as we all know it is better to commit and buy 2-3 matched ones at a time. For many, an expensive proposition.
The guy I sold my TGK to went through that. Loved the stick I sent him and wanted another. I had nowhere to point him to because I had no idea where he would find that same TGK and that same layup.
Folks like myself will tell you that's not true. That the only difference is the layup.
Here is the next challenge..you get 1 TGK that you love and want another. Well if you do not get the same layup from the first one, it will not feel the same. So as we all know it is better to commit and buy 2-3 matched ones at a time. For many, an expensive proposition.
The guy I sold my TGK to went through that. Loved the stick I sent him and wanted another. I had nowhere to point him to because I had no idea where he would find that same TGK and that same layup.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
Well, in a FAQ, you can just list the controversies and present both sides and let the reader decide.
The matching issue is one that I will be working on shortly. When the second 260.2 comes in, I'm going to take them all down to a shop to get RDC stats on them and then decide on what mods to do to the 238.4s and 260.2s. My goal is to match up the incoming 260.2 to the one that I have right now.
I want to make some changes to the 238.4 XL and then align one of the others to similar specs. I may sell the remaining one. I'd also like to get an 260.2 XL. My personal feeling is that I can play with just about anything that I can mod, but I'd like something that my arm will be comfortable with.
There were two 238.4 XLs available when I bought mine and I wanted to try one and then buy the other if I liked the first. Of course these things sell so quickly that the other one was gone by the time mine arrived.
If money isn't a limiting factor, then you could just buy up several and look for frames that play the same - you're likely to get similar frames if you get enough of them; assuming the model you want has sufficient liquidity. There are some prolific buyers out there that seem interested in almost everything that comes to market. I assume that some make some spare earnings from that.
The matching issue is one that I will be working on shortly. When the second 260.2 comes in, I'm going to take them all down to a shop to get RDC stats on them and then decide on what mods to do to the 238.4s and 260.2s. My goal is to match up the incoming 260.2 to the one that I have right now.
I want to make some changes to the 238.4 XL and then align one of the others to similar specs. I may sell the remaining one. I'd also like to get an 260.2 XL. My personal feeling is that I can play with just about anything that I can mod, but I'd like something that my arm will be comfortable with.
There were two 238.4 XLs available when I bought mine and I wanted to try one and then buy the other if I liked the first. Of course these things sell so quickly that the other one was gone by the time mine arrived.
If money isn't a limiting factor, then you could just buy up several and look for frames that play the same - you're likely to get similar frames if you get enough of them; assuming the model you want has sufficient liquidity. There are some prolific buyers out there that seem interested in almost everything that comes to market. I assume that some make some spare earnings from that.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
Well like I said, you will be able to match them up easily, since that is what they are best at, but many prefer a specific layup and unfortunately that is where the challenge comes into play.
I also find it a bit amusing about some of the raging debates about the materials in a frame. Frankly I could care less what it is made out of, all I care about is how the frame feels. All I know is the retail youtek prestige didn't have the same feel to me as the TGK when I had them matched in spec. And a retail prestige is $200 new anyway, so why not spend the same money for something i like better. One man's opinion anyway.
I have been trying for the last few years to find a stock frame I like, frankly because I am sick of paying a ton for 57A's and they are hard to get ahold of. I do think I need to get my hands on some of the Pro Kennex frames, those look to be close at least on specs. Also hoping maybe this new rebel is closer if the rumors are true about what it will be, guess we will wait and see.
For now just going to stick to my 57A's and hope we qualify for sectionals this weekend...
I have been trying for the last few years to find a stock frame I like, frankly because I am sick of paying a ton for 57A's and they are hard to get ahold of. I do think I need to get my hands on some of the Pro Kennex frames, those look to be close at least on specs. Also hoping maybe this new rebel is closer if the rumors are true about what it will be, guess we will wait and see.
For now just going to stick to my 57A's and hope we qualify for sectionals this weekend...
chrischris
G.O.A.T.
Here is part of my collection of pro stocks
Im kinda proud of it. http://www.flickr.com/photos/57418805@N06/
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heftylefty
Hall of Fame
chrischris, you collection is pretty friggin' sweet. Love the iPrestige pj'.
Here is part of my collection of pro stocks
thats a very nice collecion, have you played with the yonex frames?
chrischris
G.O.A.T.
Oh yes.. they are butter..they sandwich the ball
The Rds and the rdx are my 'pals' but i am selling off some for i have too many.
Bhagi Katbamna
Legend
Here is part of my collection of pro stocks
Well, I don't play that great with or without pro rackets but man, that collection is impressive.
Here is part of my collection of pro stocks
wow and I thought i had a problem with collecting pro stocks!
I will have to figure out how to post some pics of my own, currently I have 6 PT57A's (2 LM Prestige, 2LM Radical and 2 Youtek Prestige), 3 TGK 238.4, and a few other random ones laying around.
I was wondering what you thought of the k-factor 6.1 PJ frame? Can you compare to the PT57?
CANTGETENOUGHTENNIS!
Rookie
those LM p.j.s look absolutely ridiculous.LOL
CANTGETENOUGHTENNIS!
Rookie
Vsbabolat: i had a PT57A
vsbabolat
G.O.A.T.
Well that explains it. You can't compare a Pro Tour 630 to a YT Prestige MP Pro Stock or retail. The Pro Tour 630 is in another league.
Power Player
Bionic Poster
chrichris your collection is an 11/10.
Congrats!
Congrats!
