Pronation and Second Serve

TN00b

New User
Hey guys, I have a question for you... How is it that you pronate during your second serve? I try to shade the movement but pronation makes me naturally hit "through" the ball and not brush up on the ball.
Here's the deal, I can hit a fairly fast first serve, it's hard for me to make it go in because it hardly has any spin on it, I do this by pronating at the end of my stroke. However when I wanna hit a second serve I don't twist my body that much making me hit the ball with the "upward" movement of the racket and not the pronation.
Sorry if I didn't explain myself that good, but I just can't visualize brushing up and pronating at the same time, like when I pronate the wrist makes my racket go through the ball making hard for me to visualize the brushing up?
Any advice? Should I pronate during all my serves or just the first? :confused:

Thanks a lot in advance!
 

ProgressoR

Hall of Fame
I think it's one or the other. You pronate on flat serves. Or you go for spinny serves so you cannot pronate.
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
I think it's one or the other. You pronate on flat serves. Or you go for spinny serves so you cannot pronate.

No, you still pronate on every serve. It's just timed a little differently

Honestly though, I don't think pronation is something that you need to consciously think about. If you have a good throwing motion and use a proper grip such as continental, the pronation just naturally happens.
 

Cross-court

Rookie
If you have a good throwing motion and use a proper grip such as continental, the pronation just naturally happens.

If that's the case, why are people like FYB teaching to actively focus on pronating when you serve? Why do they talk so much about it if it happens naturally?
 

supineAnimation

Hall of Fame
No, you still pronate on every serve. It's just timed a little differently

Honestly though, I don't think pronation is something that you need to consciously think about. If you have a good throwing motion and use a proper grip such as continental, the pronation just naturally happens.
Yeah, you pronate on every serve. It's just a matter of changing the toss and the timing and angle of the pronation.
 

BobFL

Hall of Fame
Do not forget the most important thing (at least it was for me): you need MORE racquet head speed on 2nd serve! Many people decelerate on 2nd serve. The key is to have MORE speed because you brush more as opposed to the 1st serve when you go through the ball more...just my $0.02 :)
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
If that's the case, why are people like FYB teaching to actively focus on pronating when you serve? Why do they talk so much about it if it happens naturally?

No idea. All I know is when I have a loose arm and the correct grip I pronate without thinking about it.
 

ProgressoR

Hall of Fame
I have to say that pronating on spinny serves contradicts everything I have read on tt about pronation. It looks like a physical impossibility to pronate on a spinny serve. Maybe I have it all wrong.
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
I have to say that pronating on spinny serves contradicts everything I have read on tt about pronation. It looks like a physical impossibility to pronate on a spinny serve. Maybe I have it all wrong.

yeah, you do. haha :p.

Really though, pronation should occur on every serve, every time. It's just going to be slightly modified on a kick, topspin or slice serve.

http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/video-tennis-lessons/serve/kick-serve/swing-direction/

that video explains it.
 

fuzz nation

G.O.A.T.
I agree with the idea of not actively thinking about pronating when serving - it's a small muscle action that is more the result of a useful setup and swing path over the top. Trying to force the inward rotation of the serving arm can put a whole lot of strain on the smaller muscles that hold the rotator cuff together.

I think that the good news is that it's not hard to simply let it happen. Imagine trying to make a throwing motion and leaving the ball, racquet, etc. back behind your ear after executing the leg drive and core rotation you use to power the throw (or serve). The progressive uncoiling of a decent serve makes it almost impossible for the racquet to not whup over the top and around the front of the server.
 

86golf

Semi-Pro
Pronation is not a requirement for decent club level players especially on second serves. I will say though, if you are a trained player hitting up on edge then yes you will have to pronate otherwise you will frame the ball into the adjacent kiddie pool.

I've seen first hand even up to the 4.5 level, guys break all the taught rules on serving but still manage to get their serves in consistently and start points on their terms. It does amaze me sometimes what you see at the rec level.
 

dlk

Hall of Fame
Never was taught anything about pronation. Just swing like you're throwing & it's worked amazingly for me. Here's the thing though, my shots will mix between flat & spin, without my conscious effort. That's what I'm working on; getting those spins on slower 2nd serves.
 

supineAnimation

Hall of Fame
I have to say that pronating on spinny serves contradicts everything I have read on tt about pronation. It looks like a physical impossibility to pronate on a spinny serve. Maybe I have it all wrong.
I would suggest you consult what you see in the pros rather than what you might have read on this board. Watch any or every pro on tour: they all pronate on each and every 1st and 2nd serve. You have to remember that, although it's sometimes difficult to tell from what they write and how they present their advice, some of the posters on here are </= 3.0 players.
 
For spinny serves I focus more on keeping a loose arm and "snapping" my wrist up to brush the back of the ball.

Because of the body rotation and wrist movement, pronation will naturally occur - just a little bit later.
 

Jaewonnie

Professional
had the same problem as you. But its fixed. Try an eastern bh grip. Might feel more natural. Now from racket drop stage, pronate over the ball. See how it feels.
 

theZig

Rookie
No idea. All I know is when I have a loose arm and the correct grip I pronate without thinking about it.

that's because you learned how to pronate and swing properly. give a racket to a beginner, tell them to hold continental, and swing overhead. it is not as easy as you make it sound.

I have to say that pronating on spinny serves contradicts everything I have read on tt about pronation. It looks like a physical impossibility to pronate on a spinny serve. Maybe I have it all wrong.


its because you think of pronation in terms of getting to a destination. In other words, your idea of pronation is to use a swing and at the very last moment, where all the momentum has built up, you strike the ball. While that IS true for first/flatter serves, it is not the case for spinny/er serves. The idea on spinny serves (and I still think so on flatter serves.. but some disagree) is to pronate THROUGH the ball. the DIRECTION of pronation is what determines the spinniness/flatness (coupled with racket face, but thats a byproduct of the swing) of the shot. As others have said, the timing is different, but so is the direction.
 

TN00b

New User
had the same problem as you. But its fixed. Try an eastern bh grip. Might feel more natural. Now from racket drop stage, pronate over the ball. See how it feels.
Thanks, I'll give it a try and see how it feels... From what I've read it looks like the location of the toss will help me brush up the ball and not hit it straight like in a flat serve.

In other words, your idea of pronation is to use a swing and at the very last moment, where all the momentum has built up, you strike the ball. While that IS true for first/flatter serves, it is not the case for spinny/er serves. The idea on spinny serves (and I still think so on flatter serves.. but some disagree) is to pronate THROUGH the ball. the DIRECTION of pronation is what determines the spinniness/flatness (coupled with racket face, but thats a byproduct of the swing) of the shot. As others have said, the timing is different, but so is the direction.
Yeah, I'm starting to see (by shading the movement after your advice) that by throwing the ball a little more to my left (as usual) and pronating a little earlier I might brush up the ball while still hitting it pretty hard. This is basically the problem, if I focus on just brushing the ball the serve will go in, but it will have absolutely no pace at all and the other guy is gonna either hit a winner or laugh at my second serve lol...
Anyways thanks for the advice, I'll try to make some minor tweaks and see how it goes.
 

TN00b

New User
had the same problem as you. But its fixed. Try an eastern bh grip. Might feel more natural. Now from racket drop stage, pronate over the ball. See how it feels.
I thought this was for giving more spin to the serve, but will try out and see if the pronation occurs as natural as you say... Thx BTW!
 

tennisdad65

Hall of Fame
Take a look at some of the youtube video's of Pete Sampras's very spinny 85-90 mph twist serves second serves and he barely pronates. Or if he does, it is well past contact. Same goes for Fed.

Ofcourse, Pete had the ability to go for 110-115 mph topspin second serves at wimbledon.

On the other hand, I have seen Isner actively pronating on contact on his 2nd serve aces, which were typically 110+ mph. But not all of us are 6-10.

If you want to pronate without going flat on your 2nd serve, you have to experiment with tossing further left. Also experiment with moving your grip about halfway between conti and EBH.
 

TN00b

New User
If you want to pronate without going flat on your 2nd serve, you have to experiment with tossing further left. Also experiment with moving your grip about halfway between conti and EBH.
I think I'll give this a try... looks like the EBH will give me a bit more spin there!
 

ProgressoR

Hall of Fame
yep looks like i had it wrong, just doing some shadow serves I do pronate on flat and spinny serves too. This is my natural motion, I just never thought about it before. To be honest, if i didnt pronate and was taught it, I am sure I would never learn it, it seems such a difficult thing to do consciously.
 

Nanshiki

Hall of Fame
On spin serves you pronate after contact. On flat serves, slightly before contact. But I don't think pronation has much to do with spin serves, it's simply the way your arm natually moves during the serve.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
yep looks like i had it wrong, just doing some shadow serves I do pronate on flat and spinny serves too. This is my natural motion, I just never thought about it before. To be honest, if i didnt pronate and was taught it, I am sure I would never learn it, it seems such a difficult thing to do consciously.

That's correct. If you've learned to pronate of first/flatter serves, there is a good chance that you are also pronating on spin serves as well. As other have mentioned the timing and the amount of pronation is different than that of a flatter serve. Many players will unconsiously pronate on a spin serve even tho' they may be aware of the pronation on a flatter serve.

No, you still pronate on every serve. It's just timed a little differently

Honestly though, I don't think pronation is something that you need to consciously think about. If you have a good throwing motion and use a proper grip such as continental, the pronation just naturally happens.

This approach works for some players but not all. A good grip and a proper grip do not ensure pronation for all. Many players, using a conti grip, will unconsciously orient the racket head in a waiter's position when they toss the ball -- resulting in a lack of pronation.
 

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
b
On spin serves you pronate after contact. On flat serves, slightly before contact. But I don't think pronation has much to do with spin serves, it's simply the way your arm natually moves during the serve.

There is pronation prior to contact as well on spin serves. The pronation after contact is probably just more obvious.
.
 
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Cross-court

Rookie
I think not pronating on any serve would only be accomplished by a complete beginner, or someone who doesn't know the "basics" of serving.

I went outside with my racket and practiced some swings with my usual serving motion and I found that I pronate on all my serves even though I've never paid any attention to it nor tried to focus on doing it, not pronating would be impossible and the result would be a crap serve and I would probably hit myself.

If you weren't to pronate on a second serve, the back of your hand would always point to your back right?
 

TN00b

New User
b

There is pronation prior to contact as well on spin serves. The pronation after contact is probably just more obvious.
.
Yes there is, I figured it out when I thought about it a bit more, after practicing a bit my serve this weekend I noticed that I pronate even on spiny serves, although I think I was doing it before, even without thinking of it.

I think not pronating on any serve would only be accomplished by a complete beginner, or someone who doesn't know the "basics" of serving.

I went outside with my racket and practiced some swings with my usual serving motion and I found that I pronate on all my serves even though I've never paid any attention to it nor tried to focus on doing it, not pronating would be impossible and the result would be a crap serve and I would probably hit myself.

If you weren't to pronate on a second serve, the back of your hand would always point to your back right?
This is exactly what I thought when I was shading my serve this weekend, I felt that I pronated a little even without wanting to do it. I guess pronation is something that happens naturally, even when you don't think about it. Although if you "try" to pronate a little more, I think you'll get a bit of added speed.
I think the only way to serve without pronating is by not turning your shoulders and landing inside the court sideways, so your racket will go up, hence brushing the ball even without pronation. I'm pretty sure this will end up in a crappy serve though.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You guys already nailed it.
One problem with ebh serves is that with all that much pronating, yoiu can limit your rackethead speed....just like first flats, by opening up the racket before contact.
A racket sliced on edge can move faster than a full opened face.
Since most of us tend to swing first flats pretty fast (90% ??), it's hard to ADD more rackethead speed using the same pronation and swing for your second serves.
I tend to pronate slightly, but use more a chopping swing with about 15-20 % MORE rackethead speed than for my first flats. Same grip, because being a S/V server, I tend to need the right grip as soon as possible.
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
Im actually working on this right now. A girl pro who was world ranked has been telling me to slice more. She brought up pronation and said that I am pronating fine for the flat serve but it will not be nearly consistent enough, and that she rarely did it on tour. She said flats are not used nearly as much as you would think unless it is a S&V style player.

The pronation of the slice serve is different. She said to hit the ball at the top right corner and make sure the toss is to the right. This is the stuff we all know. But then she said that the pronation is going to be more towards my body instead of away like a flat serve. This is the part I am working on the most. Basically reprogramming my serve to get it right.
 

TN00b

New User
Im actually working on this right now. A girl pro who was world ranked has been telling me to slice more. She brought up pronation and said that I am pronating fine for the flat serve but it will not be nearly consistent enough, and that she rarely did it on tour. She said flats are not used nearly as much as you would think unless it is a S&V style player.

The pronation of the slice serve is different. She said to hit the ball at the top right corner and make sure the toss is to the right. This is the stuff we all know. But then she said that the pronation is going to be more towards my body instead of away like a flat serve. This is the part I am working on the most. Basically reprogramming my serve to get it right.
I think I've read that a 100% flat serve is very inconsistent so you try to apply at least a bit of topspin to help the ball come down after it passes the net.
Still working on giving my second serve a bit more pace... Oh and I noticed that if you swing faster on your second serve and place the ball in the right position, you'll get a ball that lands with a big curve because of all the spin. So I agree with Lee here, and I think that the second serve needs a lot of racket speed, unlike I thought a while back, when I saw slow second serves I thought it was because people hit the ball with less speed.... :???:
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
Nope, you are right.. that slice serve needs a lot of racquet speed. And frankly you could probably master the slice serve and use it 90% of the time if you can place it. Seems to work pretty well for Nadal.
 

Cross-court

Rookie
This is exactly what I thought when I was shading my serve this weekend, I felt that I pronated a little even without wanting to do it. I guess pronation is something that happens naturally, even when you don't think about it. Although if you "try" to pronate a little more, I think you'll get a bit of added speed.
I think the only way to serve without pronating is by not turning your shoulders and landing inside the court sideways, so your racket will go up, hence brushing the ball even without pronation. I'm pretty sure this will end up in a crappy serve though.

Not to mention that I'm pretty sure not pronating would screw up your arm, your elbow especially taking all the force or something like that.
 

corners

Legend
Over at tennisplayer . net they have a new super-duper slow mo of Fed hitting a second serve. You can clearly see that he is pronating all the way through contact, even as his racquet face comes at the ball from 8 to 2 o'clock.

Watching this video you can really see how the timing of the pronation/shoulder internal rotation will change the direction of the ball's flight. You can also see, however, that the swingpath can remain the same regardless of the timing of the pronation/internal rotation. I think the amount and type of spin has much more to do, therefore, with the swingpath and angle of attack on the ball than it does on the pronation.

Pronation/internal rotation is a natural and critically important part of throwing a ball or swinging on a serve. Varying the position of the toss will change the swingpath and angle of attack, resulting in different spin, but the overall mechanics of a loose, relaxed swing - including pronation - will remain pretty much the same on first and second serve.

Just my $.02
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
The biggest challenge for me with a consistent slice is pronating the wrist the right way. I think you want your palm to face your chest on the follow through whereas with the flatserve it faces out. I could be wrong here, but getting that proper motion nailed down is my last hurdle. I have the toss placing pretty consistently.
 

MayDay

Semi-Pro
After some bench/office chair tennis time, my conclusion is that we pronate on all serves. It's just that on 2nd serves, the contact point is earlier in the pronation. (Since the swing path is more towards right (for a righty) instead of towards the target) The contact point for 2nd (typically kick) serves is immediately after the beginning of pronation motion. The contact point for flat serves is just a tad later in the pronation motion (also due to ball toss/position and swing path).

Not sure about what Power_Player said about slice, since if you have your palm facing your chest on the follow through, you really haven't pronated. It sounds like you are supinating in the follow through?
 
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