Pronation - small vs. big; fast vs. slow, active vs. passive

oserver

Professional
"Pronation" is a fascinating word in tennis. We cannot play tennis without it. It is also a divisive word. The ones who can do pronation right became advanced players, and the ones who cannot remain to be sub-par players. This picture is undergoing changes now.

To me, pronation in tennis has three different aspects: scale, speed and active levels.

In scale, the pronation in modern tennis serve has a small scale that mostly involve very short time counter rotation of the wrist, the elbow and the shoulder. The the pronation in modern tennis forehand has a much larger scale that involves not only above small muscle groups, but also large muscle groups down below, plus it take a much longer time to complete (the windshield wiper motion occupies a larger space and longer time than in tennis serve situation.)

In speed, the pronation in modern tennis serve is speedy while the pronation in modern tennis forehand is much slower.

In active levels, the pronation in modern tennis serve involves an active arm with rapid flexing of the wrist, while the pronation in modern tennis forehand involves a passive arm with the wrist mostly kept at extension state (from large part of forward swing till early part of followthrough).

Both worked very well so far. For a long time, the co-existence didn't bother anyone. It seemed no one question why two different models or styles. A rather dump answer can look like this: a overhead shot should have its model and a non-overhead shot should have its own.

Since I started open stance serve practice four years ago, I gradually wondering about this separation of styles and unification possibilities. Early last spring, I wrote a article
"Open Tennis Serve Techniques An Introduction to Wrist Extension Tennis Serve", that was when I realized there can be a symmetry between these two different strokes, the forehand and the serve.

In short, a tennis serve can be executed just like the forehand. The only significant difference is the contact height. All other major factors - the stance, the grip and the way to use our wrist and arm, all can be the same.

Now I call it Forehand Serve, or 3O serve (to match the 3O forehand) but against the backdrop of 3C serve.

This means we can bring the forehand pronation to the serve with its large scale, slower and passive arm, and delay the timing of pronation much later in the up/forward swing path.

I know this was radical so I just hope to see some open minded criticism.
 
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IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
_1387299_sampras3002.jpg
 

IowaGuy

Hall of Fame
What a big twist, impressive! The pronation to the most extreme.

The question is: if we cannot do more from Sampras till today, what more can we do?

Maybe Sampras had it all figured out biomechanically?

Who today is a better server than Sampras? Speed, spin, accuracy...
 
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oserver

Professional
Maybe Sampras had it all figured out biomechanically?

Who today is a better server than Sampras? Speed, spin, accuracy...

The forehand way is my answer. Since Federer's forehand is like Sampras's serve by the historical perspective, but he has been using totally different forms and techniques. So the future of tennis serves need to dig into what is there in store of Federer's forehand. This is why I wrote the "Forehand Tennis Serve" paper.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
The forehand way is my answer. Since Federer's forehand is like Sampras's serve by the historical perspective, but he has been using totally different forms and techniques. So the future of tennis serves need to dig into what is there in store of Federer's forehand. This is why I wrote the "Forehand Tennis Serve" paper.

Federer is the greatest not-giant server of all time.

You think he's doing it wrong?
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
The forehand way is my answer. Since Federer's forehand is like Sampras's serve by the historical perspective, but he has been using totally different forms and techniques. So the future of tennis serves need to dig into what is there in store of Federer's forehand. This is why I wrote the "Forehand Tennis Serve" paper.
This is why people make fun of you.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
This is why people make fun of you.
Come on rog. I did some of my graduate work in logic and his logic is flawless and univerally applicable. For instance its a true statement to say that since Hitler’s mustache is like Trumps hair from the historical perspective so the future of mustaches lies in Trumps hair.

I should join Linked in to publish my paper: “The Combover Mustache”
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
Come on rog. I did some of my graduate work in logic and his logic is flawless and univerally applicable. For instance its a true statement to say that since Hitler’s mustache is like Trumps hair from the historical perspective so the future of mustaches lies in Trumps hair.

I should join Linked in to publish my paper: “The Combover Mustache”
Everytime I read one of his posts I feel sorry for him slightly. But most of what I feel is disbelief how someone can be so ignorant.

And then I try to justify his posts because of his 1st amendment rights but then I just start hoping Trump deports him. And I'm Asian and a Democrat. So conflicted.
 

rkw

New User

In short, a tennis serve can be executed just like the forehand. The only significant difference is the contact height. All other major factors - the stance, the grip and the way to use our wrist and arm, all can be the same.
The contact height has great influence on the way we can hit the ball effectively! It's all about natural position of our arms and body.

For instance, if you use forehand grip (e.g. semi-western) to serve, the racket face at racket drop will be open naturally unless you deliberately twist your arm. But if you use continental grip, the racket face will be towards the side line instead. So when you swing up, by using continental grip, the racket can naturally start from edge leading, and becomes square at the ball after you pronate. That's why using continental grip is better in serve.

Also, one of the main power sources in forehand is body rotation along the axis through the head to the ground. Since the contact point is on the right hand side, your arm will be more or less horizontal. Then the body rotation will pull the arm along and hence add power to the stroke.
But for serve, because the contact point is above your head, the body rotation along the axis from head to ground no longer have a pulling effect on the arm. Instead, you will need to add cartwheel rotation along the axis parallel to the baseline to achieve the pulling of the arm. To do cartwheel action, you need closed stance.

In short, contact point and human anatomy determine the best way to hit a stroke.
 

oserver

Professional
Federer is the greatest not-giant server of all time.

You think he's doing it wrong?

He is not doing wrong. He is doing it a lot more than average at elite level, but not at the level of his forehand. Forehand, he is the king; serve, he is not the greatest.

I kind of know what "he's doing it wrong" for not being a serve king;). He may not know that his forehand is his best resource for improving his serves. He may be still thinking - serve is a overhead but my forehand is not, so the forehand has nothing to do with the serve.

My findings tell me the opposite. My forehand serves easily beat my conventional serves. So I think if he can use everything (Roger's) forehand to serve, he may become the serve king, the double king:D.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
He is not doing wrong. He is doing it a lot more than average at elite level, but not at the level of his forehand. Forehand, he is the king; serve, he is not the greatest.

I kind of know what "he's doing it wrong" for not being a serve king;). He may not know that his forehand is his best resource for improving his serves. He may be still thinking - serve is a overhead but my forehand is not, so the forehand has nothing to do with the serve.

My findings tell me the opposite. My forehand serves easily beat my conventional serves. So I think if he can use everything (Roger's) forehand to serve, he may become the serve king, the double king:D.


I don't think you understand.

Federer already is the serve king.

The only people with better lifetime service stats than him are all the giants.


Your conventional serves were never correct, therefore they cannot be used as a point of comparison.
 

oserver

Professional
The contact height has great influence on the way we can hit the ball effectively! It's all about natural position of our arms and body.

For instance, if you use forehand grip (e.g. semi-western) to serve, the racket face at racket drop will be open naturally unless you deliberately twist your arm. But if you use continental grip, the racket face will be towards the side line instead. So when you swing up, by using continental grip, the racket can naturally start from edge leading, and becomes square at the ball after you pronate. That's why using continental grip is better in serve.

Also, one of the main power sources in forehand is body rotation along the axis through the head to the ground. Since the contact point is on the right hand side, your arm will be more or less horizontal. Then the body rotation will pull the arm along and hence add power to the stroke.
But for serve, because the contact point is above your head, the body rotation along the axis from head to ground no longer have a pulling effect on the arm. Instead, you will need to add cartwheel rotation along the axis parallel to the baseline to achieve the pulling of the arm. To do cartwheel action, you need closed stance.

In short, contact point and human anatomy determine the best way to hit a stroke.

I see you point, great way to discuss like this.

I know that during the racket drop and upswing in my forehand serves, the racket face is semi-open, not like the stream lined fashion (edge leading) when a continental grip is used. Since the whole idea of using forehand way to serve includes the passive arm (not using the arm to do the acceleration of the racket head), so adding some air friction won't have adverse affect on the overall performances. In other words, the edge leading is not important in forehand serves.

If you watch my forehand serve video, my shoulder displacement (the length of the rotational arc) is much larger than that of a conventional serve. Since my stance is also open, my toss has much larger sweet spot than the conventional serve that is more cartwheel oriented and has more linear motion component. Some posters laugh at my 360 degree serve. I can do that because the open stance and open grip. Just ask anyone to do it using pin-point stance or platform stance, then It's my turn to laugh. Open stance and open grip give you more room to rotate, not less. This is the same story as in the forehand situation. Forehand revolutionized because the stance and grip opened. Serve stayed traditional because stance and grip stayed closed.

So my serve model is: increasing rotational motion on the axis, increasing the somersault motion, decreasing the cartwheel motion, using open stance and open grip, plus passive arm and open wrist. All is the same as the modern forehand.
 

oserver

Professional
I don't think you understand.

Federer already is the serve king.

The only people with better lifetime service stats than him are all the giants.


Your conventional serves were never correct, therefore they cannot be used as a point of comparison.

King is the only one but giants can be many. He is one of the serve giants, not the serve king. Sampras is more qualified as the serve king. Federer copied serve techniques from others, but we all copy his forehand techniques. That is the difference.
 
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Knox

Semi-Pro
(not using the arm to do the acceleration of the racket head

You claim that this is how your serve works, but watching all your videos it's clear that arm extension is doing all the work. Your arm does all the acceleration.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
King is the only one but giants can be many. He is one of the serve giants, not the serve king. Sampras is more qualified as the serve king. Federer copy serve techniques from others, but we all copy his forehand techniques. That is the difference.

If Sampras is the serve king why aren't you copying his technique? You think you could teach him something too?
 

oserver

Professional
You claim that this is how your serve works, but watching all your videos it's clear that arm extension is doing all the work. Your arm does all the acceleration.
My arm is a passive link to the racket, no active arm swing there, no quick flexing of wrist there too.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
My arm is a passive link to the racket, no active arm swing there, no quick flexing of wrist there too.

You definitely actively extend your arm on the serve. I don't care what you say you're doing, I can watch your videos and see you very obviously extending your arm. You start with the racquet dropped behind your back and then you extend your arm up. You're not generating enough lift or rotation with your body for that extension to be happening passively.
 

oserver

Professional
If Sampras is the serve king why aren't you copying his technique? You think you could teach him something too?

If I have chance to talk to him, I'll say what I said here: dig into Federer's forehand to find clues to improve your serve. That's it.
 

oserver

Professional
You definitely actively extend your arm on the serve. I don't care what you say you're doing, I can watch your videos and see you very obviously extending your arm.
"extending your arm" is not the same thing as active arm.

The extending upward does not contribute much to the forward pace generation. It just let you hit the ball overhead.

Too late here now. Good night.
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
If I have chance to talk to him, I'll say what I said here: dig into Federer's forehand to find clues to improve your serve. That's it.

You've proven that you don't understand proper serves, how can you claim to know how to improve them?
 

Knox

Semi-Pro
"extending your arm" is not the same thing as active arm.

The extending upward does not contribute much to the forward pace generation. It just let you hit the ball overhead.

Too late here now. Good night.


"extending your arm" is not the same thing as active arm."

Yes it is. Arm extension is 'active' by every applicable definition of 'active'. You're wrong. Please read a dictionary.

"The extending upward does not contribute much to the forward pace generation."

Yes it does, in fact it is the only thing generating velocity on your serves, that's why they're so weak. Again, you're wrong.

At this point I feel like a bully picking on the slow kid. I'm gonna let you live in your fantasy world, I won't try and clear away your illusions for you any longer. Take care of yourself.

 

Knox

Semi-Pro
OP is the best troll ive ever seen on this forum.

I don't think this is trolling.

I think this is a psychosis.

Psychosis: "Psychosis is characterized by an impaired relationship with reality. It's a symptom of serious mental disorders. People who are experiencing psychosis may have either hallucinations or delusions. "

Delusion: "an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder."

Oserver has repeatedly and consistently displayed an impaired relationship with reality and a commitment to preserving delusion.

I grew up on the mean streets of the internet. I've been around the block and seen my fair share of trolling.

This is different, this guy isn't doing it for fun. He's serious.

Very disconcerting.
 
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rkw

New User
I don't think OP is trolling. He seems very serious about his "new discovery". Honestly, why tease him for his unorthodox serve? After all, most of us are rec players who play for fun, not for financial gain. If everyone is using and promoting only conventional methods, this forum will be very boring. OP is actually giving us chance to think about the reason why traditional method is being traditional, and why strange method is ineffective most of the time. Although very unlikely, if OP can move to very high level one day using his "new" method, it will be something very interesting.
 

Keendog

Professional
I don't think OP is trolling. He seems very serious about his "new discovery". Honestly, why tease him for his unorthodox serve? After all, most of us are rec players who play for fun, not for financial gain. If everyone is using and promoting only conventional methods, this forum will be very boring. OP is actually giving us chance to think about the reason why traditional method is being traditional, and why strange method is ineffective most of the time. Although very unlikely, if OP can move to very high level one day using his "new" method, it will be something very interesting.

Most of us don't make a new thread every week for 4 years with the same gibberish. If he isn't a troll, why not just keep posting on his original thread. The answer is to get more bites on his bait. He may not identify as a troll, but that is only his own ignorance. Troll is as Troll does.
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
I have something to be made fun of, not the best thing in the world.
Did I ask you to put your serve video a few times? Are you afraid of people making fun of you?
What does how I serve have anything to do with how you serve? Are you now claiming my serve somehow affects the validity of your flawed serve methods? And why do you keep posting the same thread over and over again?
 

oserver

Professional
I don't think OP is trolling. He seems very serious about his "new discovery". Honestly, why tease him for his unorthodox serve? After all, most of us are rec players who play for fun, not for financial gain. If everyone is using and promoting only conventional methods, this forum will be very boring. OP is actually giving us chance to think about the reason why traditional method is being traditional, and why strange method is ineffective most of the time. Although very unlikely, if OP can move to very high level one day using his "new" method, it will be something very interesting.

You have a curious and open mind.

When one question the prevailing believes of many, the responses can be furious. Have we seen that enough? Am I getting some thing fundamentally new? Not exactly. All I proposed is in Federer's forehand that represents innovations of a generation of tennis players. The only thing new from me has been to apply those innovations to serve. So far, how many posters who have been furious at me presented focused arguments on subject matters?

Do I have to be an elite player to say what I said? Or do I need to wait for someone famous to say what I said?
 

vex

Legend
Maybe Sampras had it all figured out biomechanically?

Who today is a better server than Sampras? Speed, spin, accuracy...
This. Answer is no one. Tennis may continue to evolve with players more physically suited to execute the technique (6’10 servebots) but the technique appears to be maxed out.

*Id have to go back to analyze technique changes leading up to Sampras before I gave him the credit tho. But he certainly ranks #1 so far in terms of maximizing the technique relative to his height.
 

oserver

Professional
Most of us don't make a new thread every week for 4 years with the same gibberish. If he isn't a troll, why not just keep posting on his original thread. The answer is to get more bites on his bait. He may not identify as a troll, but that is only his own ignorance. Troll is as Troll does.

I'm touching a few very sensitive subject matters in tennis. Many readers are wondering too. I don't need to "troll" to get attention. Everyone here has a brain. Each can determine what is interesting and what is not.

You can disagree with everything I say here. But do you believe by joining the conversations, you broadened your understanding of tennis in general?
 

oserver

Professional
Most of us don't make a new thread every week for 4 years with the same gibberish. If he isn't a troll, why not just keep posting on his original thread. The answer is to get more bites on his bait. He may not identify as a troll, but that is only his own ignorance. Troll is as Troll does.

Did I made more than 10 threads in 4 years? Maybe a little bit more but I doubt it.

My original post is about open stance serve, later on added open grip serve. Last year I added WETS serve (Wrist Extension Tennis Serve). The Forehand Tennis Serve and Forehand Topspin Serve are just a month old. Then I had two threads on pronation, and Why forehand evolved to the modern style but serve remain to be traditional. So what you said was not true at all.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Just watch my older video and new ones then you should know. I'm too old to be trained as division one player. I left college a few decades ago.
Well you do have a coaching cert. i am sure some juniors parents would love to have their kid learn the best technique. Lets see your students beating traditional servers or even getting 120mph serves on a playsight court
 

rogerroger917

Hall of Fame
If he tells a parents he will teach a WETS serve and then demonstrates it he will get laughed out of the club... membership revoked.

Luckily for him he is only antagonizing us here. As no person with half a brain will hire him to coach tennis.
Well you do have a coaching cert. i am sure some juniors parents would love to have their kid learn the best technique. Lets see your students beating traditional servers or even getting 120mph serves on a playsight court
 

oserver

Professional
If he tells a parents he will teach a WETS serve and then demonstrates it he will get laughed out of the club... membership revoked.

Luckily for him he is only antagonizing us here. As no person with half a brain will hire him to coach tennis.

Haha, you think I'll beg the chances to teaching some 5 years oldies? I'm already doing teaching here, just look at the status of posters, Hall of Fame, G.O.A.T., etc. The problem is, for some, the higher the status, the harder to teach. Who is willing to get rid of old bags? The Forehand Serve are so new, like a crab for a person who has never seen it, not to mention the guts to take a bite on the thorny leg.
 

vex

Legend
Haha, you think I'll beg the chances to teaching some 5 years oldies? I'm already doing teaching here, just look at the status of posters, Hall of Fame, G.O.A.T., etc. The problem is, for some, the higher the status, the harder to teach. Who is willing to get rid of old bags? The Forehand Serve are so new, like a crab for a person who has never seen it, not to mention the guts to take a bite on the thorny leg.
Either you're the greatest TTW Troll ever .... or you're a few quarters short of a buck

PSSST, If you're an epic troll, wink twice okay?
 

Stretchy Man

Professional
Just watch my older video and new ones then you should know.

Alright Gary, I'll play along. Here are a couple of your videos 4 years apart.

To me, your serve looked faster and more accurate 4 years ago. Your serve has not improved. It has worsened. :(

 

Keendog

Professional
I'm touching a few very sensitive subject matters in tennis. Many readers are wondering too. I don't need to "troll" to get attention. Everyone here has a brain. Each can determine what is interesting and what is not.

You can disagree with everything I say here. But do you believe by joining the conversations, you broadened your understanding of tennis in general?

Honestly I think I've lost some IQ points.

But yet, you're too entertaining to turn away
 

oserver

Professional
Honestly I think I've lost some IQ points.

But yet, you're too entertaining to turn away
Haha, some come here for the entertaining fun, some come for some serious tennis matters. I'll smile if I can make everyone happy:)!
 
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