Pros who are playing worse with the Defyer

atatu said:
It's my opinion watching KK and Stearns play, I knew I'd catch some flack from the Defyer's fanboys, but it's a bit much to call me a hater. By the way, according to another thread posted recently, he's switched back to the Blade. Oh yeah, Stearns crashed out to #131 Harriet Dart.
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Damn. So the only guys really still using it are Fery and Kuoame ? Who both crashed out in their first possible round at the USO?
 
lim said:
KK is back to blade pro. Saw his match in person against burruchaga. Although he still wore the full deepfryer red kit
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Wow. Looks like he switched after he arrived at the USO. Pretty crazy the twists and turns here, is Korda off of it ?
 
gino said:
Wow. Looks like he switched after he arrived at the USO. Pretty crazy the twists and turns here, is Korda off of it ?
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pretty sure Korda is still using it, saw him swinging a blacked out version the last time he played. I do wonder about KK’s motivation for switching back, he mentioned changing balls as a reason for going away from the Blade and now people are talking about faster balls in the USO prep and that he’s still searching a weight setup for the Defyer that fits all surfaces/conditions… But who knows, he’s definitely an odd one out with his 18x20 defyer.
 
SpinToWin said:
pretty sure Korda is still using it, saw him swinging a blacked out version the last time he played. I do wonder about KK’s motivation for switching back, he mentioned changing balls as a reason for going away from the Blade and now people are talking about faster balls in the USO prep and that he’s still searching a weight setup for the Defyer that fits all surfaces/conditions… But who knows, he’s definitely an odd one out with his 18x20 defyer.
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Gonna be wild if these guys start switching frames depending on the state of the balls, can’t be good for the tour product or the players health. Smfh. I just realized Korda is out with injury again, so maybe we will get a peek at him in the fall. He was playing great with it
 
atatu said:
Damn. So the only guys really still using it are Fery and Kuoame ? Who both crashed out in their first possible round at the USO?
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Fery, Atmane, Korda, Tirante, Kuoame, Rune (whenever he reemerges), probably a number of lower ranked pros we don't know about, and last I checked 2/top 5 junior boys and a number of top D1 guys.

I still think it's rather odd to point out only the negative results and claim a handful of matches as any kind of signal to the racquet's quality in an absolute sense. Khachanov, whatever his reasons for the change back, had a lot of success with it right after the switch last year. Stearns' level this year is pretty much where she's been, and she won a 250 in February. Korda won Delray beating some quality players and beat Alcaraz in Miami. People get upset by lower-ranked players all the time using the same racquets they've been using for years; that's pro tennis. Maybe these players stick with it long term or maybe they don't, but there is no trend here. I mean Fils just lost to Tsitsipas of all people. Are you blaming the vaunted '23 Pure Aero 98 or is that racquet exempt from recency bias?

Kouame is all of 17 and lost in 3 to a guy who made top 100 last year. Seems like he was using the same racquet during the FO. Fery had a miracle run at Wimbledon out of nowhere with the same racquet but we're calling losing to a healthy Musetti of all people "crashing out"?

Call me crazy, but we might have some mounting evidence for the "hater" tag at this point, because these are not neutral takes.
 
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Brian2781 said:
Fery, Atmane, Korda, Tirante, Kuoame, Rune (whenever he reemerges), probably a number of lower ranked pros we don't know about, and last I checked 2/top 5 junior boys and a number of top D1 guys.

I still think it's rather odd to point out only the negative results and claim a handful of matches as any kind of signal to the racquet's quality in an absolute sense. Khachanov, whatever his reasons for the change back, had a lot of success with it right after the switch last year. Stearns' level this year is pretty much where she's been, and she won a 250 in February. Korda won Delray beating some quality players and beat Alcaraz in Miami. People get upset by lower-ranked players all the time using the same racquets they've been using for years; that's pro tennis. Maybe these players stick with it long term or maybe they don't, but there is no trend here. I mean Fils just lost to Tsitsipas of all people. Are you blaming the vaunted '23 Pure Aero 98 or is that racquet except from recency bias?

Kouame is all of 17 and lost in 3 to a guy who made top 100 last year. Seems like he was using the same racquet during the FO. Fery had a miracle run at Wimbledon out of nowhere with the same racquet but we're calling losing to a healthy Musetti of all people "crashing out"?

Call me crazy, but we might have some mounting evidence for the "hater" tag at this point, because these are not neutral takes.
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I never denied being a hater of this stick, it’s a thick beam and wholly unoriginal design. I’m not a fan. Additionally find it amusing all of the switches taking place. Hilarious to me.

I also did say Korda was playing great with it in the post directly above this. So not completely disregarding its value, just incredibly amused by the trends of players who actually are playing well. No law that says to post on talk tennis one must remain neutral. If anything that’s counter to a forums existence

Additionally, I love seeing the Shift/RF01/Defyer/any thick beam aero copy lose steam after intense marketing efforts. Best players using Wilson use a more traditional stick and I hope it stays that way. Same with head. They are both a foil to Babolat / Yonex & we need balance in the market. Sounds like you just want everyone to use an aero derivative stick, I don’t want to live in that world, personally. I’m fine if you call me a hater, it’s an Internet forum, opinions can clash
 
Brian2781 said:
Fery, Atmane, Korda, Tirante, Kuoame, Rune (whenever he reemerges), probably a number of lower ranked pros we don't know about, and last I checked 2/top 5 junior boys and a number of top D1 guys.

I still think it's rather odd to point out only the negative results and claim a handful of matches as any kind of signal to the racquet's quality in an absolute sense. Khachanov, whatever his reasons for the change back, had a lot of success with it right after the switch last year. Stearns' level this year is pretty much where she's been, and she won a 250 in February. Korda won Delray beating some quality players and beat Alcaraz in Miami. People get upset by lower-ranked players all the time using the same racquets they've been using for years; that's pro tennis. Maybe these players stick with it long term or maybe they don't, but there is no trend here. I mean Fils just lost to Tsitsipas of all people. Are you blaming the vaunted '23 Pure Aero 98 or is that racquet except from recency bias?

Kouame is all of 17 and lost in 3 to a guy who made top 100 last year. Seems like he was using the same racquet during the FO. Fery had a miracle run at Wimbledon out of nowhere with the same racquet but we're calling losing to a healthy Musetti of all people "crashing out"?

Call me crazy, but we might have some mounting evidence for the "hater" tag at this point, because these are not neutral takes.
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What's weird is that it's not my quote that you've got in your post, it's ginos. Anyway, as I said it's just my observation that KK and Stearns are playing poorly with the new racket, so the whole hater thing is kind of silly, but maybe you're a big Defyer fan which is fine, everyone can have an opinion, no need to resort to name calling. Also listen to Khachanov on the Changeover Podcast, he talks about the time that he switched to Head and he says it was a mistake, so yes, pros do make mistakes sometime when they switch rackets, it happens.
 
gino said:
I never denied being a hater of this stick, it’s a thick beam and wholly unoriginal design. I’m not a fan. Additionally find it amusing all of the switches taking place. Hilarious to me.

I also did say Korda was playing great with it in the post directly above this. So not completely disregarding its value, just incredibly amused by the trends of players who actually are playing well. No law that says to post on talk tennis one must remain neutral. If anything that’s counter to a forums existence

Additionally, I love seeing the Shift/RF01/Defyer/any thick beam aero copy lose steam after intense marketing efforts. Best players using Wilson use a more traditional stick and I hope it stays that way. Same with head. They are both a foil to Babolat / Yonex & we need balance in the market. Sounds like you just want everyone to use an aero derivative stick, I don’t want to live in that world, personally. I’m fine if you call me a hater, it’s an Internet forum, opinions can clash
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Respect for at least being transparent about your bias.

From a pro performance discussion, I assumed the point was to determine what was actually going on, I didn't realize there were actual rooting interests here. I personally don't want anyone to use any one thing nor do I feel any personal affront based on what they use (except from an aesthetic perspective - the Defyer pj definitely stands out on TV but the black prototype was cooler).

As a consumer, I'm a fan of choice among quality options. Rooting *against* a new product lines is confusing to me if there's actually a market for them and they aren't forced on anyone, seems odd to complain when Wilson, Head, etc. appear quite capable of supporting and making quite a variety of frames including more traditional, and softer box beams, even in 2026. Wilson already sells frames retail that were pro stock-only for years, hard to blame them for unbalancing the market when nobody else is doing that. It's not like they killed the Blade Pro to make room for this.

Yes Babolat, Yonex, to a lesser extent the Extreme line have occupied this space for years, but the Defyer (despite the heinous name and polarizing aesthetic) does actually occupy a different space in terms of the feel/performance/maneuverability matrix vs the Aero and VCOREs. I own each, and they are not fungible.
 
atatu said:
What's weird is that it's not my quote that you've got in your post, it's ginos. Anyway, as I said it's just my observation that KK and Stearns are playing poorly with the new racket, so the whole hater thing is kind of silly, but maybe you're a big Defyer fan which is fine, everyone can have an opinion, no need to resort to name calling. Also listen to Khachanov on the Changeover Podcast, he talks about the time that he switched to Head and he says it was a mistake, so yes, pros do make mistakes sometime when they switch rackets, it happens.
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My mistake, I multi-quouted and accidentally merged them trying to remove one.
 
Efen semi-pros are playing worse, one being my sparring partner, the city champ, early 20s, who "tries to hit hard with the Defyer 98, but the ball just doesn't go fast".
We demoed one in stock, 320g and 309 SW, strung with ALU Power at 54 LBs (fresh).

By comparison he hits harder with this Blade V7 and my Prestige Prostocks 293.1 (heavier around 330g and higher SW, again about 330, strung).

My coach (late 20s) actually prefers the Defyer to my Prostocks, but he is a Babolat guy.

I've added some tape to the demo, but the string broke, so I'll get it again before deciding if I want to buy one.
As for myself, I can defend better with the lighter Defyer than I can do with my Prostocks, but the later have more control and the power is easier to tame.
A few minutes of hitting with the tape improved my impression of the Defyer 98 though...
 
Brian2781 said:
Respect for at least being transparent about your bias.

From a pro performance discussion, I assumed the point was to determine what was actually going on, I didn't realize there were actual rooting interests here. I personally don't want anyone to use any one thing nor do I feel any personal affront based on what they use (except from an aesthetic perspective - the Defyer pj definitely stands out on TV but the black prototype was cooler).

As a consumer, I'm a fan of choice among quality options. Rooting *against* a new product lines is confusing to me if there's actually a market for them and they aren't forced on anyone, seems odd to complain when Wilson, Head, etc. appear quite capable of supporting and making quite a variety of frames including more traditional, and softer box beams, even in 2026. Wilson already sells frames retail that were pro stock-only for years, hard to blame them for unbalancing the market when nobody else is doing that. It's not like they killed the Blade Pro to make room for this.

Yes Babolat, Yonex, to a lesser extent the Extreme line have occupied this space for years, but the Defyer (despite the heinous name and polarizing aesthetic) does actually occupy a different space in terms of the feel/performance/maneuverability matrix vs the Aero and VCOREs. I own each, and they are not fungible.
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Well contrary to your assertion, they definitely killed the number of pro room offerings upon the inception of this silo. Namely the 6.1 95 & ultra pro 97.

My main contention is that aero copies are tired and pointless. Whether it’s diadem, Wilson, or another brand - it’s unoriginal and I have a rooting interest against poaching design philosophy to that degree. I don’t agree that this frame sits in a unique segment of the market, it’s a direct attempt at cloning a PA98. Poaching rune as the main endorser all but assures that nature of the strategy

I’m not a huge fan of intellectual high ground or questioning the logic behind someone’s opinion. It comes across as pretentious, who are you to lay claim to what I should think?

At the end of the day, Babolat nor Yonex offer a real traditional box beam type frame. Wilson and Head have maintained those offerings in their catalogs. Which provides differentiation to the consumer. You can question that logic and the intellect that supports it all you want. Just pretty hypocritical to get bothered by prevailing opinions in a thread then assert your line of thinking is the only reasonable one
 
Yeah, sometimes a racket just doesn’t click even if it looks great on paper. If your timing feels off with the Defy, I’d go back to the Blade rather than forcing the switch.
 
fed1 said:
Two sides to this, on the WTA, Potapova playing much better with it and on the mens side you could say Tirante is playing his best tennis with it.
Don’t disagree about the hype but there are some success stories.
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Potty had completely wrong specs for her anyway, could have used any modern racquet with her proper specs and be better off.
Tirante like many using the slimmer Soft drive have more ups and downs as traditionally do 98% of Babolat Destiny/PD/Aero players.
Tirante was no1 junior and taken him a long time to shine and his BH lands shorter with the defiler, this stroke has not improved.
H22 is day in day out reliable but hunting extra power just needs a little more weight than most wristy social media gens can muster.

Karen is back to the H22

I think the Solinco Chroma, Babolat PP01 are likely more evolved versions of H22 and Ez. We shall see cause atm many H22, Blade
and Steam users are doing well with current balls and conditions which is rare but hitting flatter than spin is where H22 and EZ shine
followed by Speed and Pa98 which cater for more spin.
 
gino said:
Wow. Looks like he switched after he arrived at the USO. Pretty crazy the twists and turns here, is Korda off of it ?
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he was still practicing vs Alcaraz with the Defiler just swapped on match day 5hrs after Citybus filleted Fils.
 
gino said:
Well contrary to your assertion, they definitely killed the number of pro room offerings upon the inception of this silo. Namely the 6.1 95 & ultra pro 97.

My main contention is that aero copies are tired and pointless. Whether it’s diadem, Wilson, or another brand - it’s unoriginal and I have a rooting interest against poaching design philosophy to that degree. I don’t agree that this frame sits in a unique segment of the market, it’s a direct attempt at cloning a PA98. Poaching rune as the main endorser all but assures that nature of the strategy

I’m not a huge fan of intellectual high ground or questioning the logic behind someone’s opinion. It comes across as pretentious, who are you to lay claim to what I should think?

At the end of the day, Babolat nor Yonex offer a real traditional box beam type frame. Wilson and Head have maintained those offerings in their catalogs. Which provides differentiation to the consumer. You can question that logic and the intellect that supports it all you want. Just pretty hypocritical to get bothered by prevailing opinions in a thread then assert your line of thinking is the only reasonable one
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If it's your personal wish that Wilson keep making a wider variety "traditional" frames because you like them, that's completely reasonable. I do disagree with several of your other core premises.

1) Wilson and Head aren't the only brands still making thin, constant-width, box-beam designs, and they are still making them, and at no point did I "question" supporting that, rather, only the apparent desire for them not to succeed in making anything else. 2) You can definitely blame the Defyer for killing/replacing the Shift, but I'm skeptical the Defyer is responsible for ceasing production on a low-volume, niche, 90s reissue, no matter the loosely associated timing. If it were selling, I suspect they'd still be selling it, but my condolences to its poster child anyway.

The rest is largely dependent on the width of your lens, but I don't think "the Defyer 98 is a PA98 clone" is supported by my or the majority's experience for those who are very familiar with how they play. The current PA98 isn't even a clone of the previous PA98. Of course there are similarities, but there is enough daylight between the bookends of the segment's playing characteristics to make each a fit for different preferences, in the same way all thinner box beams don't play identically in every aspect. The Defyer isn't some miracle best racquet for every player, but I'm happy to have the option for some overlap in the '23 PA98's playing characteristics, but with nicer feel and a typically Wilson flared butt cap. And it seems so are a lot of others, as well as Wilson staff who wanted a bit more free power and spin than was available in their previous Wilson models without having to break their endorsement contract. So there is a rather self-evident point for Wilson, the consumer, Sebastian Korda, etc.

Also, I don't think it's actually hypocritical to say "I think this thread's causal inference from pro Python/Defyer usage to results isn't well-established by the context or evidence presented, and I'm surprised you're so invested in your opposition to an apparently in-demand product." That's simply a disagreement/observation of difference in perspective. Hypocrisy would be saying "I'm allowed to critique your reasoning/preferences but you aren't allowed to critique mine." I haven't. I disagree with the conclusions around pro results here and your product-line preferences, but still find the latter interesting. I am not demanding anyone's thoughts be anything, as you said, opinions can clash.

The thread's framing and content also just initially struck me as at least partly schadenfreude in identifying professional failures which I did feel inclined to push back on. But in your case, that seems to have been a feature, not a bug.
 
Guys I think you’re both reasonable and talking past each other in part due to the misquoting that happened earlier on. I think your opinions can readily coexist without clashing. I do think the framing of this thread is odd, questionable even, but I also think it’s good that more feel oriented options remain on the consumer market.

From Wilson’s perspective I understand their need to offer an option that occupies the same space as Aeros, Ezones and Vcores. This doesn’t mainly have to do with current pros imo, though the unusual wave of switches has made that the centre of the discussion, but more so juniors tennis. From everything I have seen and heard there is a clear trend towards these “modern” frames among juniors specifically, and Wilson simply couldn’t consistently get their more modern/powerful options into juniors’ hands. Yes their Blade still did relatively well for what it is, but it doesn’t fit the niche that many juniors are looking for. Pro endorsements do matter in the long run, so it’s simply rational to provide this option as a brand when juniors want it. And I don’t think it’s bad to have more options in this space, given the feedback from players/poasters I trust it also is sufficiently differentiated from the alternatives to warrant its existence.
 
nfantunes said:
I don’t think the Wilson strategy it’s to put pros of the moment playing with Defyer! The strategy is the same that babolat use with PAVS/PA98 … making juniors and younger players that look for a racquet like this playing with Wilson Defyer and not with Babolat or yonex. The juniors of now will be the pros of the future
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This is usually the answer. Most pros play with something they grew up on so Wilson having a spin frame will help some younger players actually comfortable with a Wilson frame
 
SupahMan5000 said:
This is usually the answer. Most pros play with something they grew up on so Wilson having a spin frame will help some younger players actually comfortable with a Wilson frame
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That and it’s an option for when pros are looking for something like a PA or Vcore.
They also have some other unreleased frames in their portfolio of pro stocks. Learner Tien with the 98 ultra 16x19 that’s someone of a similar beam profile of the 100.
 
SpinToWin said:
Guys I think you’re both reasonable and talking past each other in part due to the misquoting that happened earlier on. I think your opinions can readily coexist without clashing. I do think the framing of this thread is odd, questionable even, but I also think it’s good that more feel oriented options remain on the consumer market.

From Wilson’s perspective I understand their need to offer an option that occupies the same space as Aeros, Ezones and Vcores. This doesn’t mainly have to do with current pros imo, though the unusual wave of switches has made that the centre of the discussion, but more so juniors tennis. From everything I have seen and heard there is a clear trend towards these “modern” frames among juniors specifically, and Wilson simply couldn’t consistently get their more modern/powerful options into juniors’ hands. Yes their Blade still did relatively well for what it is, but it doesn’t fit the niche that many juniors are looking for. Pro endorsements do matter in the long run, so it’s simply rational to provide this option as a brand when juniors want it. And I don’t think it’s bad to have more options in this space, given the feedback from players/poasters I trust it also is sufficiently differentiated from the alternatives to warrant its existence.
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This account writes like they're Tsitsipas, literally hahaha
 
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