Proud Pusher I guess?

[_Jaq]

I'm officially too old to play basketball now so I'm trying singles tennis. I started this spring at 3.0 and am now playing 4.0 compass and have surprised myself going 5-1 so far. However, my opponents seem to be irritated with me compared to the 3.5 level and I've heard the term "pusher" a few times. I take lessons, hit on a ball machine etc and I have a full swing (although I admit it isn't overly aggressive) finishing high and all the way over my shoulder, not a short choppy push. I focus on hitting with controlled topspin as close to the baseline as I can, emphasizing way more on placement than power. Due to this, I hit very few baseline winners but when I get short balls I do come behind good approach shots and put away easy volleys for winners. So does pushing mean slowly pushing your shots like it sounds, or does it mean just not trying to bang baseline winners and making a lot of unforced errors like my opponents seem to do when they get frustrated? In basketball if someone doesn't have a smooth looking stroke but they hit it regularly, then you better guard him or you will get torched. There seems to be a focus on aesthetics that I have seen in my fairly limited tennis experience, but this isn't a pageant, it is an athletic competition. BTW, I'm new to the forums, and I'm excited to learn and improve at tennis (practicing/playing 6 days a week).

 

[kevrol]

Unless you're swinging trying to put balls through the back fence you're likely to be considered a pusher by the under 50 4.0 set.

 

[Tiafoe]

I would say you're a pusher if you are a backboard that always hits to the middle of the court and don't use much pace. BTW, you shouldn't be surprised that you are 5-1 if you are playing 6 days a week and have average or better athletic ability. I don't know anyone that has time for that much practice at the 3.5 or 4.0 level.

 

[Dartagnan64]

How high does your ball clear the net? A typical pusher with actual topspin strokes will clear the net by about 6 feet or more to get the ball deep. If you are getting the ball 2-3 feet over the net and spinning it down near the baseline you are not a pusher as that requires a reasonable amount of RHS.

 

[_Jaq]

OK, so it seems like it doesn't really mean you really "push" the ball. It sounds like a derogatory term made up by people who aren't very athletic that think the beauty of the swing should trump heart and determination. That's kind of what I thought. Some of these guys have been developing their skill for decades and I can see why they would be upset that a better athlete with much less experience can beat them, but once again is this a beauty contest or a sport? In basketball the outcome is what matters and as they say "defense wins championships". As long as it isn't unethical play or cheating, it doesn't matter how you got the win or who looked the prettiest doing so.

 

[Tiafoe]

OK, so it seems like it doesn't really mean you really "push" the ball. It sounds like a derogatory term made up by people who aren't very athletic that think the beauty of the swing should trump heart and determination. That's kind of what I thought. Some of these guys have been developing their skill for decades and I can see why they would be upset that a better athlete with much less experience can beat them, but once again is this a beauty contest or a sport? In basketball the outcome is what matters and as they say "defense wins championships". As long as it isn't unethical play or cheating, it doesn't matter how you got the win or who looked the prettiest doing so.

It is kind of derogatory but there is some truth it that a "pusher" doesn't usually drive the ball, they "push" it. I don't know if you would qualify because I usually don't think of a pusher as someone who uses any topspin. I also think of a pusher as someone who is just trying to survive points by outlasting the opponent rather than being assertive or aggressive.

 

[Dartagnan64]

OK, so it seems like it doesn't really mean you really "push" the ball. It sounds like a derogatory term made up by people who aren't very athletic that think the beauty of the swing should trump heart and determination. That's kind of what I thought. Some of these guys have been developing their skill for decades and I can see why they would be upset that a better athlete with much less experience can beat them, but once again is this a beauty contest or a sport? In basketball the outcome is what matters and as they say "defense wins championships". As long as it isn't unethical play or cheating, it doesn't matter how you got the win or who looked the prettiest doing so.

I don't think it has anything to do with "pretty". People hate pushers because the balls they are faced with consistently have no pace or travel in a predominantly vertical trajectory. No pace balls mean you have to be constantly supplying the power for a rally. Vertical balls are far more annoying to hit than horizontal ones as they have no pace and require more precise timing.

We all have to face pusher's in leagues and tournaments, as their style can be a winning strategy. But we certainly don't add them to our playing buddies list. No one likes to lose by being frustrated to death. We'd always rather lose to someone with superior shotmaking skill.

 

[_Jaq]

How high does your ball clear the net? A typical pusher with actual topspin strokes will clear the net by about 6 feet or more to get the ball deep. If you are getting the ball 2-3 feet over the net and spinning it down near the baseline you are not a pusher as that requires a reasonable amount of RHS.

My coaches have advised me to aim a little higher (2 feet is heavily discouraged by them ) but to use topsin to bring the ball down near the baseline. Their argument is that it gives me more margin of error and I feel more free to make a full swing. Only when I have a very advantageous short ball do I ever try to swing even close to my full strength. Weird, I follow professional advice and I get labeled a derogatory name. Don't take this personally, but the tennis vibe is more like cliques of HS girls putting down someone for not looking the way they do than the varsity football team respecting a team that just beat them fair and square.

 

[Dartagnan64]

My coaches have advised me to aim a little higher (2 feet is heavily discouraged by them ) but to use topsin to bring the ball down near the baseline. Their argument is that it gives me more margin of error and I feel more free to make a full swing. Only when I have a very advantageous short ball do I ever try to swing even close to my full strength. Weird, I follow professional advice and I get labeled a derogatory name. Don't take this personally, but the tennis vibe is more like cliques of HS girls putting down someone for not looking the way they do than the varsity football team respecting a team that just beat them fair and square.

2 feet offers more than enough "margin for error". Likely what they are wanting from you is depth. If your "2 feet over the net" FH's are dropping on the service line then you need to aim higher to get that ball closer to the baseline. Or hit harder, of course.

I will agree that tennis can be cliquey. But don't ever think that pusher is a derogatory name. It's a name born of frustration. We don't like facing pushers but most of us respect the pusher game. It's a descriptive title. When someone tells me "so and so
is a real pusher", I know that I'll be facing paceless balls with big margins for error and a human backboard. I will have to strategize accordingly.

 

[user92626]

OK, so it seems like it doesn't really mean you really "push" the ball. It sounds like a derogatory term made up by people who aren't very athletic that think the beauty of the swing should trump heart and determination. That's kind of what I thought. Some of these guys have been developing their skill for decades and I can see why they would be upset that a better athlete with much less experience can beat them, but once again is this a beauty contest or a sport? In basketball the outcome is what matters and as they say "defense wins championships". As long as it isn't unethical play or cheating, it doesn't matter how you got the win or who looked the prettiest doing so.

You got it, Jaq, every one of your impression.

The truth of the matter is successful tennis requires a level of consistency, whether it's beginning tennis or pro level. Fortunately for you, your athleticism can afford that level of consistency that you see/enjoy while your opponents cannot and thus hate you. You should advance higher and eventually reach a point where you must hit faster/tricker to find success. At some point you'll run into a player (better player) who seemingly is a better "pusher" than you.

 

[Tiafoe]

My coaches have advised me to aim a little higher (2 feet is heavily discouraged by them ) but to use topsin to bring the ball down near the baseline. Their argument is that it gives me more margin of error and I feel more free to make a full swing. Only when I have a very advantageous short ball do I ever try to swing even close to my full strength. Weird, I follow professional advice and I get labeled a derogatory name. Don't take this personally, but the tennis vibe is more like cliques of HS girls putting down someone for not looking the way they do than the varsity football team respecting a team that just beat them fair and square.

Didn't you say you played basketball? Well, there's a term that's used in competitive basketball circles that is the same as a pusher. It's reserved for the unathletic guy who makes ugly shots - the term is a glorified YMCA player. Not every sport has these terms but basketball and tennis do.

 

[_Jaq]

Didn't you say you played basketball? Well, there's a term that's used in competitive basketball circles that is the same as a pusher. It's reserved for the unathletic guy who makes ugly shots - the term is a glorified YMCA player. Not every sport has these terms but basketball and tennis do.

It is opposite in tennis apparently. The athletic guy seems to be the outcast, especially if he beats a player with "better looking" strokes. That's my point exactly. Weird culture.

 

[ChaelAZ]

Meh. You win and that annoys people they can't beat you. Hell, I get annoyed at that kind of stuff too, but as a player I need to take on the harder challenges of different game styles over something that fits my style of tennis. And when I don't win, that has nothing to do with their play.

I celebrate you for just doing you!

 

[Tiafoe]

It is opposite in tennis apparently. The athletic guy seems to be the outcast, especially if he beats a player with "better looking" strokes. That's my point exactly. Weird culture.

I don't think I have ever seen an athletic pusher, but apparently they exist. Whenever I have played a pusher they had terrible looking strokes but somehow managed to get most balls back. I guess I can see how a really good athlete could be categorized as a pusher if they play really conservatively.

 

[_Jaq]

I would say you're a pusher if you are a backboard that always hits to the middle of the court and don't use much pace. BTW, you shouldn't be surprised that you are 5-1 if you are playing 6 days a week and have average or better athletic ability. I don't know anyone that has time for that much practice at the 3.5 or 4.0 level.

I was told that for a 47 yo to switch sports, 4.5 level tennis would be great long term goal. Was told 5.0 is where previous college players and players that were trained as juniors tend to hover. That's why I was surprised to be doing that well at 4.0 already, but I guess that's easily accomplished if you chose to put the time in over a several month period according to you. Maybe its easier where you live? Maybe these rating are area specific and better players live here? My pros are ex college players at 5.0 so if being competitive at 4.0 is as easy as you say it is.... I'm not buying it. Why does 3.5 even exist then? If I get to 4.0 in 9 months, then where will I end if I keep training? I predict 4.5 max, and you are the one who isn't being realistic here.

 

[Tiafoe]

I'm just saying that if you have athletic ability and put that much dedication into a sport (which is A LOT), you will be a really good player. You can easily beat 3.5 players with that dedication and should do well at 4.0. I know a 40 year old guy that's a great athlete, started playing tennis 4x per week, and 3 months later joined USTA & was dominating at 3.5 both locally and at that season's sectionals and nationals. 1.5 years later he is probably going to move up to 4.5.

 

[_Jaq]

2 feet offers more than enough "margin for error". Likely what they are wanting from you is depth. If your "2 feet over the net" FH's are dropping on the service line then you need to aim higher to get that ball closer to the baseline. Or hit harder, of course.

I will agree that tennis can be cliquey. But don't ever think that pusher is a derogatory name. It's a name born of frustration. We don't like facing pushers but most of us respect the pusher game. It's a descriptive title. When someone tells me "so and so
is a real pusher", I know that I'll be facing paceless balls with big margins for error and a human backboard. I will have to strategize accordingly.

Wow! I just measured 24 inches. No way I can hit it that close to the net and get it near the baseline consistently without hitting the majority long and losing points. You must be an amazing player! What rating if I may ask? Can others achieve this level of power and spin combo to achieve depth at the 4.0 level? I've been watching a lot of pro tennis lately, and I haven't seen this in rallies, but I have seen it when they flatten out on short ball winners. Must be an optical illusion on TV if there goal is to rally at that height. Phenomenal abilities you have.

 

[_Jaq]

You got it, Jaq, every one of your impression.

The truth of the matter is successful tennis requires a level of consistency, whether it's beginning tennis or pro level. Fortunately for you, your athleticism can afford that level of consistency that you see/enjoy while your opponents cannot and thus hate you. You should advance higher and eventually reach a point where you must hit faster/tricker to find success. At some point you'll run into a player (better player) who seemingly is a better "pusher" than you.

Thank you, Thank you. I have found that player in fact. My one loss in the seeding round was to the guy who is now the #1 seed in the tourney. No one has beaten him so far. Definitely a better version of me. Rarely hurts you with power but omg he has amazing topspin control and can move you around the court until you try to end the point out of shear exhaustion or frustration. Rarely hits baseline winners but rarely makes errors either. Looks like he runs marathons too (not joking, like 5% body fat). Not ultra quick but stamina to burn. He outlasted me and had better shot tolerance because he could go longer. Hopefully I'll get to play him again since I have been working on my strokes and fitness a lot since we first met.

 

[user92626]

I would say you're a pusher if you are a backboard that always hits to the middle of the court and don't use much pace.

think about this for a second and see how ridiculous the whole categorizing of players is.

The least and basic "athletic" requirement is to able to move somewhat, and the basic technical skill is to hit an easy ball fed in front of you.

What kind of opponent can't beat a "pusher" who "always hits to the middle of the court [least movement required] and don't use much pace [easiest type of ball, as opposed to pro's fast pace]" and yet blame or hate on the pusher?

I can't think of less requirement than this.

 

[Tiafoe]

think about this for a second and see how ridiculous the whole categorizing of players is.

The least and basic "athletic" requirement is to able to move somewhat, and the basic technical skill is to hit an easy ball fed in front of you.

What kind of opponent can't beat a "pusher" who "always hits to the middle of the court [least movement required] and don't use much pace [easiest type of ball, as opposed to pro's fast pace]" and yet blame or hate on the pusher?

I can't think of less requirement than this.

Since this is a tennis forum, COME ON! Lol. I'll clarify. A pusher is generally hitting to the middle of the court because they are not playing the lines or moving you around the court by using angles. They are retrieving balls and waiting for overhits or other errors. They are incredibly patient. I have never seen someone who could be categorized as a pusher hit with much pace but then again, I am basing it on observations of mainly 3.5/4.0 tennis players.

 

[ptuanminh]

No need to worry about what people call you. Pusher is a term for winner .
I have seen 4.5 players hitting junk balls and dinks intentionally.

 

[KineticChain]

I'm officially too old to play basketball now so I'm trying singles tennis. I started this spring at 3.0 and am now playing 4.0 compass and have surprised myself going 5-1 so far. However, my opponents seem to be irritated with me compared to the 3.5 level and I've heard the term "pusher" a few times. I take lessons, hit on a ball machine etc and I have a full swing (although I admit it isn't overly aggressive) finishing high and all the way over my shoulder, not a short choppy push. I focus on hitting with controlled topspin as close to the baseline as I can, emphasizing way more on placement than power. Due to this, I hit very few baseline winners but when I get short balls I do come behind good approach shots and put away easy volleys for winners. So does pushing mean slowly pushing your shots like it sounds, or does it mean just not trying to bang baseline winners and making a lot of unforced errors like my opponents seem to do when they get frustrated? In basketball if someone doesn't have a smooth looking stroke but they hit it regularly, then you better guard him or you will get torched. There seems to be a focus on aesthetics that I have seen in my fairly limited tennis experience, but this isn't a pageant, it is an athletic competition. BTW, I'm new to the forums, and I'm excited to learn and improve at tennis (practicing/playing 6 days a week).

for whatever reason, tennis (at the rec level) has become the sport to play when you're old and/or nonathletic, even though pro level tennis is notoriously very physical. i think it's just because you only need one other person to play and the amount of physicality is directly related to skill level. so the more skilled a pair of players are, the more physically able they have to be to run down well placed shots and hit them with authority. that being said, tennis really doesn't start to necessarily become a demanding athletic endeavour until about 4.5 level and beyond. that's why you see plenty of drama queens at 4.0 and below.. you have all these old ego-maniac types that are stuck at 4.0. some have been playing a really long time and have never gotten better. then you also have the athletic type of player who advances to 4.0 in a year or two and can hang with other 4.0s just by running every shot down and "pushing" the ball back into play. that annoys the ego-driven weekend warrior type, who ironically, also likely has a sucky swing.

if you do want to advance to 4.5 and beyond, you really will need to develop some reliable heavy swings or else your shots will be put away quickly. at that point it's not about aesthetics, but more about hitting a heavy clean ball - which aesthetically looks good because it is closer to how the pros play - which is hitting the stuffing out of the ball with large amounts of topspin like shown below:

 

[_Jaq]

for whatever reason, tennis (at the rec level) has become the sport to play when you're old and/or nonathletic, even though pro level tennis is notoriously very physical. i think it's just because you only need one other person to play and the amount of physicality is directly related to skill level. so the more skilled a pair of players are, the more physically able they have to be to run down well placed shots and hit them with authority. that being said, tennis really doesn't start to necessarily become a demanding athletic endeavour until about 4.5 level and beyond. that's why you see plenty of drama queens at 4.0 and below.. you have all these old ego-maniac types that are stuck at 4.0. some have been playing a really long time and have never gotten better. then you also have the athletic type of player who advances to 4.0 in a year or two and can hang with other 4.0s just by running every shot down and "pushing" the ball back into play. that annoys the ego-driven weekend warrior type, who ironically, also likely has a sucky swing.

if you do want to advance to 4.5 and beyond, you really will need to develop some reliable heavy swings or else your shots will be put away quickly. at that point it's not about aesthetics, but more about hitting a heavy clean ball - which aesthetically looks good because it is closer to how the pros play - which is hitting the stuffing out of the ball with large amounts of topspin like shown below:

Its because our best athletes in America aren't trained as juniors or even exposed to tennis as kids. They gravitate to basketball, football, etc. It takes a lot of money and family obsession to raise a champion, and the more casual child tennis players tend to largely be country club kids. I see it in my 9 yo even. He plays competitive club level soccer where he is an above average athlete at best but clearly not a stand out and often gets outclassed physically. In the off season, he plays in some tennis clinics and some group lessons with dedicated players the same age. He literally looks like he is an Olympic level athlete comparatively, and can beat kids that have been playing regularly for 2-3 yrs just based on his raw quickness and defense. The coach wants him to play tournaments and has convinced us to play once a week in a small competitive group he has assembled, as we won't commit to the several days a week like the other boys are doing. Don't get me wrong, if you get the rare combination of intense childhood training in someone who also happens to be a great athlete (Serena Williams for instance), you get a phenom. I'm just saying that the bigger American sports tend to collect the best athletes and tennis tends to get the ones that fall through the cracks or the ones whose parents have a tennis obsession and gently nudge their kids to play 6 hours a day 5 days a week (yes that actually exists in my town, where the kids home school and attend the tennis academy from 9-5 etc). Therfore when people age out of other sports, they tend to look at tennis as an alternative. And yes, there are clearly examples of world class athletes at the top of the pro level, but they don't tend to be Americans do they? I don't follow as closely as most so is an honest question. I followed Agassi who was an incredibly skilled tennis champion who won a lot of majors, but I suspect even he would admit he wasn't an elite level athlete compared to other top players in other sports.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

hehe... if they are calling you a pusher, and you hitting with full strokes and winning,... then you're probably doing it right.
what they really mean is that you're not-a-misser
keep up the good fight.

 

[_Jaq]

hehe... if they are calling you a pusher, and you hitting with full strokes and winning,... then you're probably doing it right.
what they really mean is that you're not-a-misser
keep up the good fight.

Thanks man! I don't have a lot of power yet for sure, but I definitely strive to have a complete swing with controlled top spin and deep placement. Maybe one day I can bang, but for now I just basically dump games when my ego tells me to hit like I see on TV.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Thanks man! I don't have a lot of power yet for sure, but I definitely strive to have a complete swing with controlled top spin and deep placement. Maybe one day I can bang, but for now I just basically dump games when my ego tells me to hit like I see on TV.

just an observation of folks that play with a control game (ie. full strokes, but slower)...

i often see that they tend to revert back a control game, and they find it tough to "swing out"
so at 3.5-4.0 they are winning with a control game, which is great,
but then they get bumped up to 4.5, they're getting crushed, because their control game (specifically long slow full groundies vs. santoro style game) is feeding sitters to let the other guy dictate.
of course they try hitting out, but since they haven't really been practicing it all these years, it's a bit of a disaster for a while (and for some, they aren't willing to put in the work/effort to learn to hit faster (usually a footwork thing... ie. it takes more active/precise footwork to get into position to attempt a shot with more pace because if you're off a little, it will often spectacularly fail - whereas a control game, you can get away with mishit that lands short, but isn't instantly put away for a winner at 3.5-4.0)

on the flip side...
i've had some big wins over 5.0s... and really had moments/matches where i was playing above my level.
the downside, is that on an off day, i'll lose to steady 4.0 because i'm missing

[edit] seems like the juniors are taught to keep "hitting out" (fast racquet speed) until they stop missing... they accomplish with a high volume of balls... like 100x more a week than the avg weekend hacker. in the clinics i've recently been taking (ie. junior academy style clinic for adults), they keep stressing racquet head speed (for more topspin)

 

[_Jaq]

just an observation of folks that play with a control game (ie. full strokes, but slower)...

i often see that they tend to revert back a control game, and they find it tough to "swing out"
so at 3.5-4.0 they are winning with a control game, which is great,
but then they get bumped up to 4.5, they're getting crushed, because their control game (specifically long slow full groundies vs. santoro style game) is feeding sitters to let the other guy dictate.
of course they try hitting out, but since they haven't really been practicing it all these years, it's a bit of a disaster for a while (and for some, they aren't willing to put in the work/effort to learn to hit faster (usually a footwork thing... ie. it takes more active/precise footwork to get into position to attempt a shot with more pace because if you're off a little, it will often spectacularly fail - whereas a control game, you can get away with mishit that lands short, but isn't instantly put away for a winner at 3.5-4.0)

on the flip side...
i've had some big wins over 5.0s... and really had moments/matches where i was playing above my level.
the downside, is that on an off day, i'll lose to steady 4.0 because i'm missing

Yeah, I hear you loud and clear. I'm at the point where I hit with much more pace in practice but it isn't consistently translating in matches. My last two matches I started off with the mindset to hit with more power and accept some more errors. Problem is I got down 0-3 in each. Went back to the control game and completely turned it around. Do you have to go through a transition where you are willing to lose complete matches in order to have to long term gain of power? Who doesn't want to hit 80 mpg groundies all day long, but how do you get there?

 

[Moonarse]

Mr proud pusher, Greetings.

I have a simple question for you: Do people from your level or beyond often (re)invite you for a match? Ok I got it that you are winning tournaments matches. But do people like to play against you? Do they feel like playing you again?

That is the Pride factor for my game.

Don't get me wrong, beeing athletic and consistent isn't something you should be feeling bad about. I won against a whole lot of players with 10 to 15 years of tennis in my first year playing just because I played Football almost to a professional level, so I sort of had things easy on my way ( as someone mencioned here, btw). the only difference is that i love to attack the ball and dictate the point, going for winners and counter strikes. Lost my pacience for the pushing shots on the middle of the journey.

I think I am a 5.0 to your american standards. (started when I was 20, now 23yo)

I used to play with whom ever invited me and now I seem to be avoing unintentionally the "proud pushers". I just dislike the game. It bores me. It is not that I can't rush the net and end the points, I just dont feel like having to work a match in a way that I am not feeling the joy, to deal with a slow, steady and boring paceless game.

I equaly dislike playing with that one shot guy that goes for the winner all the time.

Cutting short. If you are winning ENTIRELY BASED on other people unforced errors, and they still love to hit with you, than you should be proud of your game. Around here this type of player ends up dominating games with lower ranked guys, because no one of from they're level or above finds the joy to play a casual game with you.

Anyway, you can still be a city champion with that game. Many trophys and medals, just not many invitation for a tuesday eve casual match.

(Again, I am not judging your game, maybe you are just consistent and athletic and maybe not even a pusher, I am just saying what happens with the traditional pushers around here)

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Yeah, I hear you loud and clear. I'm at the point where I hit with much more pace in practice but it isn't consistently translating in matches. My last two matches I started off with the mindset to hit with more power and accept some more errors. Problem is I got down 0-3 in each. Went back to the control game and completely turned it around. Do you have to go through a transition where you are willing to lose complete matches in order to have to long term gain of power? Who doesn't want to hit 80 mpg groundies all day long, but how do you get there?

absolutely have to go through a transition.

you sound like an athletic guy... think about any/every tweak you've made (pick a sport), in the beginning you suck at it (feels awkward, etc...), but if you practice, you realize that the tweak gives you access to (much) better results

imo this is what sets "athletes" apart... they will to accept short term losses for longer victories, and will work hard to make the correct tweaks in their games (whereas "bunters" will stick with what they know in the short term becauuse it's giving them 3.0 wins)

for the record... i don't have 80mph groundies... (i think that's like avg pro or d1 level fh's).. i probably top out around 60 but avg 50's (if i recall from the playsite court i was on)... but "hitting out" has less to do with pace,... more to do with getting more topspin to give you a much bigger margin for error while still swinging fast.

 

[Startzel]

I don't think I have ever seen an athletic pusher, but apparently they exist. Whenever I have played a pusher they had terrible looking strokes but somehow managed to get most balls back. I guess I can see how a really good athlete could be categorized as a pusher if they play really conservatively.

Yeah. In my experiences the athletic guys all are skilled enough to easily pick up good strokes.

 

[Tiafoe]

It's not all about pace. It's about placement too. If you hit deep balls to the corners and go to the net on shots that have the opponent on their heels, that is the type of aggressive game that is the opposite of a pusher.

 

[_Jaq]

Mr proud pusher, Greetings.

I have a simple question for you: Do people from your level or beyond often (re)invite you for a match? Ok I got it that you are winning tournaments matches. But do people like to play against you? Do they feel like playing you again?

That is the Pride factor for my game.

Don't get me wrong, beeing athletic and consistent isn't something you should be feeling bad about. I won against a whole lot of players with 10 to 15 years of tennis in my first year playing just because I played Football almost to a professional level, so I sort of had things easy on my way ( as someone mencioned here, btw). the only difference is that i love to attack the ball and dictate the point, going for winners and counter strikes. Lost my pacience for the pushing shots on the middle of the journey.

I think I am a 5.0 to your american standards. (started when I was 20, now 23yo)

I used to play with whom ever invited me and now I seem to be avoing unintentionally the "proud pushers". I just dislike the game. It bores me. It is not that I can't rush the net and end the points, I just dont feel like having to work a match in a way that I am not feeling the joy, to deal with a slow, steady and boring paceless game.

I equaly dislike playing with that one shot guy that goes for the winner all the time.

Cutting short. If you are winning ENTIRELY BASED on other people unforced errors, and they still love to hit with you, than you should be proud of your game. Around here this type of player ends up dominating games with lower ranked guys, because no one of from they're level or above finds the joy to play a casual game with you.

Anyway, you can still be a city champion with that game. Many trophys and medals, just not many invitation for a tuesday eve casual match.

(Again, I am not judging your game, maybe you are just consistent and athletic and maybe not even a pusher, I am just saying what happens with the traditional pushers around here)

Yeah, I was thinking that many tennis players are into the social and recreational side of the game, not the competitive nature of the sport. Hey, it makes sense. I'm here because I cant keep up in the more physical sports either. If I want to hang around for a while and enjoy playing with others, I suspect I will start trying to hit harder (win or lose) and not make people move much so they enjoy it more. I guess I need to change my sports mentality (I think I am a little too competitive in most things in life) to meet the culture of tennis, which is apparently more recreational in nature. Well at least you get some exercise while hanging and having fun!

 

[Moonarse]

Yeah, I was thinking that many tennis players are into the social and recreational side of the game, not the competitive nature of the sport. Hey, it makes sense. I'm here because I cant keep up in the more physical sports either. If I want to hang around for a while and enjoy playing with others, I suspect I will start trying to hit harder (win or lose) and not make people move much so they enjoy it more. I guess I need to change my sports mentality (I think I am a little too competitive in most things in life) to meet the culture of tennis, which is apparently more recreational in nature. Well at least you get some exercise while hanging and having fun!

You got me wrong!

I am saying the exact opposite! I am am not really fond of tournaments (had to compete a lot on my Football days) buy I Only enter the court to play great matches! Yeah you should move people around, hit harder! that is what makes people come in the court for a hitting session at 21 oclock on a monday! Of course you should!! you should make people think that you are overplaying them, not just send them sit ups for them to go long or destroy they're mental aspect.

I tend to lose a lot. really. but there are some matches that go like 3-6 3-6 that we both go for the net with a smile on the face, with that look of "yeah we had a awesome clash.

Sometimes (more than often) you will lose, but the joy of trying to overplay your opponent and having a nice clash is amazing.

There are a lot of ways to feel "mission acomplished". this is mine. If you feel what I am trying to say by the way you are already playing, and so does your hitting partner or competitor, that is the way to go and keep doing it!

Sometimes getting your ass kicked by trying to win the game with your own game will have a better result for you as a player than winning based on the unforced errors of the opponent.

 

[Moonarse]

My reacreational side has noting to do with having light matches. I love to go to the club and play as hard as I can till I get destroyed.

I tried some tournaments around here and I found that the most boring games I played were on the tournaments. Paceless, afraid to overhit lobbing all the way to the victory kind of opponents, So I tend to choose another dedicated player and we both dig the clay till it looks like a war zone! hhahaha

 

[_Jaq]

It's not all about pace. It's about placement too. If you hit deep balls to the corners and go to the net on shots that have the opponent on their heels, that is the type of aggressive game that is the opposite of a pusher.

Sweet. So I guess the term is misused a lot and used out of frustration against people who don't make many mistakes but run you from corner to corner. I do that and then come in and put away volleys when I have them stretched. Those are usually the only winners I hit, not too many from the baseline but I'm definitely hitting through the ball. I think if you don't hit some high paced errors, people get frustrated and use a ubiquitous term for annoying because you beat them by not making too many mistakes. I also think everyone has a different opinion of what a pusher is, because I think of them of bunters who don't use topspin and hit moon balls, and I'm definitely not that guy.

 

[Moonarse]

I do that and then come in and put away volleys when I have them stretched.

You are not a pusher.

 

[Tiafoe]

You are not a pusher.

Agreed. A pusher wouldn't come to the net to put away shots.

 

[_Jaq]

My reacreational side has noting to do with having light matches. I love to go to the club and play as hard as I can till I get destroyed.

I tried some tournaments around here and I found that the most boring games I played were on the tournaments. Paceless, afraid to overhit lobbing all the way to the victory kind of opponents, So I tend to choose another dedicated player and we both dig the clay till it looks like a war zone! hhahaha

I understand. I have hitting partners where we don't even keep score but play points very aggressively without caring too much if they miss by 2 feet or not. This is the most fun I have in tennis actually. The problem is, I cant get it to carry over in matches. When I swing like this, I dig a hole and have to revert back to the deep controlled top spin shots with a heavy emphasis on placement. If I try to think "hit baseline winners man" , then I will lose. My power game just isn't there yet but I do strive to get there one day. Maybe I actually don't need to try to win the compass matches for a while and just hit out understanding I will lose but will be better in the the long run. IDK

 

[Moonarse]

I understand. I have hitting partners where we don't even keep score but play points very aggressively without caring too much if they miss by 2 feet or not. This is the most fun I have in tennis actually. The problem is, I cant get it to carry over in matches. When I swing like this, I dig a hole and have to revert back to the deep controlled top spin shots with a heavy emphasis on placement. If I try to think "hit baseline winners man" , then I will lose. My power game just isn't there yet but I do strive to get there one day. Maybe I actually don't need to try to win the compass matches for a while and just hit out understanding I will lose but will be better in the the long run. IDK

I mostly hit like you do, more than I play matches actually. It really is the most fun you can get, when you find the momentum of both players.

You will not be able to transfer that looseness into the game right away, it takes time to "click". but you have to keep forcing it and putting in your head that you play better during the match. You can't think that just because you are winning it is the way to go. It take a lot of frustration to evolve in tennis.

 

[Tiafoe]

_Jaq, when you do eventually play a pusher, you will have moments during the match that you hate tennis. I'm not kidding. I asked a pro at my club in the spring how his match went (against a guy I know is a pusher), and he said "I won, but felt 'yucky'". It's funny because that's exactly how you'll feel.

 

[_Jaq]

_Jaq, when you do eventually play a pusher, you will have moments during the match that you hate tennis. I'm not kidding. I asked a pro at my club in the spring how his match went (against a guy I know is a pusher), and he said "I won, but felt 'yucky'". It's funny because that's exactly how you'll feel.

I have played a moon baller at 3.0. Made me look like Safin pace. No matter where I was on the court he literally hit a lob with no spin, even if I was already behind the baseline. Took over 2 hours to beat him and felt like watching paint dry. That I get. I just didn't understand why they would call me a pusher but I think I get it now. They don't really mean I push the ball, but rather I consistently hit it deep and make them cover the entire baseline, which they find annoying. They want me to hit as many errors as they do and since I don't they chose to blame me rather than evaluate their own deficiencies of consistency.

 

[travlerajm]

My playing current style is well described by op. Works fine against 4.0 players. Also works fine against 4.5 players. Also wins against 5.0 players sometimes.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Wow! I just measured 24 inches. No way I can hit it that close to the net and get it near the baseline consistently without hitting the majority long and losing points. You must be an amazing player! What rating if I may ask? Can others achieve this level of power and spin combo to achieve depth at the 4.0 level? I've been watching a lot of pro tennis lately, and I haven't seen this in rallies, but I have seen it when they flatten out on short ball winners. Must be an optical illusion on TV if there goal is to rally at that height. Phenomenal abilities you have.

I am a 3.5. And will likely stay there due to age and a bum shoulder that limits my serve and overhead capabilities. But I can certainly hit 2-3 feet over the net and have it spin down on the baseline. I can also hit 7 feet over the net and have it spin down on the baseline. I can also flatten it out and hit 6 inches over the net and have it hit near the baseline. I just can't do all those things as consistently as I'd like. But I do it consistently enough to be competitive with a bunch of other 3.5's.

And pros frequently hit balls 1-2 feet over the net. Not sure what tennis you're are watching.

I find in intermediate level there are 2 major types. The fit skinny guys with terrible strokes but win with speed and fitness and the overweight slow guys with good strokes but limited court coverage. Overweight guys need to develop good strokes or they can't compete at all. Skinny fast guys don't feel as compelled to work on their strokes since they are winning with fitness. The few fast guys that do work on their strokes get to 4.5 and above and never play intermediates again.

 

[Power Player]

Pushing annoys people in tennis because it is generally an easier way to win matches at the rec level. Reality is that if you want to have aesthetic strokes but are not highly consistent, you will lose tennis matches for a long time even if you look better than the other guy.

So what happens is guys put in a lot of work on their strokes but lose for a while to guys who put less work into their strokes,but play a much smarter strategy that is more high %. It is frustrating because many times the pusher wins off the other guy messing up.

It's a totally legit strategy. I played 4.0 tennis and basically moonballed guys to death, got a short ball and put it away. Over and over. It felt souless, but I won matches and more importantly, developed high shot tolerance and consistency. It helped me play much better at the next tick up.

At the end of the day you will peak at a certain level, but some guys can get to 4.5 as athletic pushers. So it's a legit way to play, but annoying and not that fun. Reality is that one of the joys of tennis is playing a match with another guy who can hit out, where you both can have really nice points with some pace and clean hitting. I think that is why you are getting cliquish vibes from some guys. I wold not take it personally. It is one of those things where when you are new to something it seems hard to understand, but give it 5 years and it will make more sense.

 

[eelhc]

I hit very few baseline winners but when I get short balls I do come behind good approach shots and put away easy volleys for winners.

OP... you're not a pusher by my definition.

My definition of a pusher is someone who relies on their opponents UFE to win. They exist at all levels but most common trait is the deep ball in the center of the court that is slow enough for them to recover to the middle. They'll hit this shot until their opponent gets frustrated and attempts to go for a bigger angle/pace which oftentimes results in an UFE. Generally, if they can win 51% of points this way, they'll win the match.

Talk Tennis definition of a pusher is anyone who can hit 1 more ball in than you.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

OP... you're not a pusher by my definition.

My definition of a pusher is someone who relies on their opponents UFE to win. They exist at all levels but most common trait is the deep ball in the center of the court that is slow enough for them to recover to the middle. They'll hit this shot until their opponent gets frustrated and attempts to go for a bigger angle/pace which oftentimes results in an UFE. Generally, if they can win 51% of points this way, they'll win the match.

Talk Tennis definition of a pusher is anyone who can hit 1 more ball in than you.

my definition of pusher is someone with short choppy bunty strokes (typically characterized by a short/no follow through), that is literally pushing or blocking the ball back without adding any energy themselves...

which gives them an incredible degree of control (simple stroke, that can't go wrong), but requires quite a bit of energy from their opponents.. and basically they are bunt/lobbing the ball for depth... can never really hurt you, but rely on you to make a mistake

if you are the "hit one more more ball" type player, but have full strokes (short backswing with full follow through is still a full stroke) where you're imparting topspin or underspin (vs. blocking), then you're just a retriever... or on your way to being a counter puncher (ala simon) once you learn to change ball direction.

 

[_Jaq]

My playing current style is well described by op. Works fine against 4.0 players. Also works fine against 4.5 players. Also wins against 5.0 players sometimes.

Glad to hear!

 

[_Jaq]

my definition of pusher is someone with short choppy bunty strokes (typically characterized by a short/no follow through), that is literally pushing or blocking the ball back without adding any energy themselves...

which gives them an incredible degree of control (simple stroke, that can't go wrong), but requires quite a bit of energy from their opponents.. and basically they are bunt/lobbing the ball for depth... can never really hurt you, but rely on you to make a mistake

if you are the "hit one more more ball" type player, but have full strokes (short backswing with full follow through is still a full stroke) where you're imparting topspin or underspin (vs. blocking), then you're just a retriever... or on your way to being a counter puncher (ala simon) once you learn to change ball direction.

wow, didn't know there were so many terms/descriptions. seems like some are more flattering than others, and some are meant to be a jab/derogatory

 

[Moonarse]

Pushing annoys people in tennis because it is generally an easier way to win matches at the rec level. Reality is that if you want to have aesthetic strokes but are not highly consistent, you will lose tennis matches for a long time even if you look better than the other guy.

So what happens is guys put in a lot of work on their strokes but lose for a while to guys who put less work into their strokes,but play a much smarter strategy that is more high %. It is frustrating because many times the pusher wins off the other guy messing up.

It's a totally legit strategy. I played 4.0 tennis and basically moonballed guys to death, got a short ball and put it away. Over and over. It felt souless, but I won matches and more importantly, developed high shot tolerance and consistency. It helped me play much better at the next tick up.

At the end of the day you will peak at a certain level, but some guys can get to 4.5 as athletic pushers. So it's a legit way to play, but annoying and not that fun. Reality is that one of the joys of tennis is playing a match with another guy who can hit out, where you both can have really nice points with some pace and clean hitting. I think that is why you are getting cliquish vibes from some guys. I wold not take it personally. It is one of those things where when you are new to something it seems hard to understand, but give it 5 years and it will make more sense.

you sir summed it all up and deserve a medal.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

wow, didn't know there were so many terms/descriptions. seems like some are more flattering than others, and some are meant to be a jab/derogatory

pusher is definitely meant as a derogatory term (though misused to categorize anyone who's consistent)

retriever, counter puncher, etc,... just styled. see the pinned thread on playing styles.