Proving Djokovic's Wimbledon tally is the most inflated/lucky slam total by any ATG in the modern era

jl809

jl809

Hall of Fame
Djokovic has benefitted from an amazing set of circumstances coming together to allow him to win 7 Wimbledons:

1 (a) He had the weakest competition in his prime and postprime of the 00s ATGs. His prime was perfectly timed; it started when the 2 other ATGs’ grass primes were ending or already over, AND continued when no new ATGs on grass were coming up during his postprime
  1. Federer's prime competition: peak Nadal 2x, peak Roddick 2x, prime Nadal 1x, prime Roddick 2x
  2. Nadal's prime competition: peak Federer 2x, peak Djokovic 1x, prime Federer 1x, preprime Murray 3x
  3. Djokovic's prime competition: prime Nadal 1x, peak Murray 1x, and postprime Federer 2x

  4. Federer's postprime competition: prime Djokovic 2x, prime Murray 2x, postprime Nadal 1x, mugs (Cilic, Raonic, Anderson)
  5. Djokovic's postprime competition: super old Federer 1x, postprime Nadal indoors (see later) 1x, mugs (Berrettini + Kyrgios)
  6. Nadal's postprime competition: lol
1 (b) Djokovic needed to be born much later than Federer to (1) win more than 3 or 4 Wimbledons AND (2) stop Federer winning more than 10 Wimbledons
  1. We know prime Djokovic would have been screwed vs prime Federer on grass because of how prime Djokovic could barely handle postprime Federer (lost to him in 2012, narrow win in 2014). Similarly 2019 shows us that Super Old Federer would have destroyed Super Old Djokovic on grass, given how he nearly beat postprime Djokovic.

  2. 2003 Federer with 2011's competition, 2004 Federer with 2012's competition etc. could win 11 or 12 Wimbledons easily even if Djokovic was still around, because he is better than Djokovic on grass. It's a matchup issue like Nadal at RG.

  3. Even if you swap 2011 Djokovic into 2003 (i.e. give him the weak era) and put 2003 Federer in 2011, Djokovic probably wins 2003, 2005, 2006 and debatably 07. Again, that is 3 or maybe 4 Wimbledons, not the SEVEN (soon to be EIGHT) we are looking at. Wow!
2. Djokovic avoided his grass daddy, Andy Murray, the last 6 times he won Wimbledon
  1. You know how people used to say Murray does everything Djokovic does, but a bit worse? On grass it was the reverse. Murray never lost a set against Prime Djokovic on center court, beating him in 2012 at the Olympics and at 2013 in the Wimbledon final all in straight sets. Murray was becoming the grass version of Stan for Djokovic... but since 2013, they have never played at Wimbledon again. Djokovic's titles in 2014 and 15 and his resurgence on grass in 2018-present contained one bit of fortune we don't really talk about - no Murray
3. Djokovic needed some incredible luck with Moya-era Rafael Nadal
  1. A freak Anderson-Isner match turned the first part of Nadal-Djokovic into an indoor match... then turned it into an indoor match AGAIN in broad sunlight and 30 degrees celsius the following day (for .... reasons...). Nadal is about 1000 times better outdoors than indoors, and given how close the match was (194 points to 190, identical winners and UEs, etc), Nadal fans will rightfully argue taking things outdoors would probably have swung things for their man. No comeback slam for Djokovic, the future looking very different, etc.

  2. As clearly the only person (other than Federer) competitive enough to beat Djokovic on grass, Nadal gets a 6-month injury in 2021, allowing Djokovic to win a Berrettini Open with an even easier draw than AO 22.
  3. Then, with Djokovic's rally game looking the worst I've ever seen it, Nadal gets an ab tear that prevents him playing Djokovic in baking conditions on a worn-out, dirt-covered baseline in the 2022 final, allowing Djokovic to win Wimbledon beating - have we blotted it out yet? - Sinner, Norrie and Kyrgios.
4. Djokovic needed Federer to be injured when Djokovic's own level got muggy
  1. I don't have many words to describe Djokovic's level at Wimbledon in 2021 and 2022. It made 2019 look like 2011. Who would have benefitted from facing this absolutely muggy Djokovic, even with his own level vastly declined? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Who was injured in both 2021 and 2022? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Hopefully he is back to save tennis in 2023.

What a perfect meeting of fortunes! What it all tells us?????
 
Last edited:
RS

RS

Talk Tennis Guru
jl809 said:
Djokovic has benefitted from an amazing set of circumstances coming together to allow him to win 7 Wimbledons:

1 (a) He had the weakest competition in his prime and postprime of the 00s ATGs. His prime was perfectly timed; it started when the 2 other ATGs’ grass primes were ending or already over, AND continued when no new ATGs on grass were coming up during his postprime
  1. Federer's prime competition: peak Nadal 2x, peak Roddick 2x, prime Roddick 2x, prime Nadal 1x
  2. Nadal's prime competition: peak Federer 2x, peak Djokovic 1x, prime Federer 1x, preprime Murray 3x
  3. Djokovic's prime competition: prime Nadal 1x, peak Murray 1x, and postprime Federer 2x

  4. Federer's postprime competition: prime Djokovic 2x, prime Murray 2x, postprime Nadal 1x, mugs (Cilic, Raonic, Anderson)
  5. Djokovic's postprime competition: super old Federer 1x, postprime Nadal indoors (see later) 1x, mugs (Berrettini + Kyrgios)
  6. Nadal's postprime competition: lol
1 (b) Djokovic needed to be born much later than Federer to (1) win more than 3 or 4 Wimbledons AND (2) stop Federer winning more than 10 Wimbledons
  1. We know prime Djokovic would have been screwed vs prime Federer on grass because of how prime Djokovic could barely handle postprime Federer (lost to him in 2012, narrow win in 2014). Similarly 2019 shows us that Super Old Federer would have destroyed Super Old Djokovic on grass, given how he nearly beat postprime Djokovic.

  2. 2003 Federer with 2011's competition, 2004 Federer with 2012's competition etc. could win 11 or 12 Wimbledons easily even if Djokovic was still around, because he is better than Djokovic on grass. It's a matchup issue like Nadal at RG.

  3. Even if you swap 2011 Djokovic into 2003 (i.e. give him the weak era) and put 2003 Federer in 2011, Djokovic probably wins 2003, 2005, 2006 and debatably 07. Again, that is 3 or maybe 4 Wimbledons, not the SEVEN (soon to be EIGHT) we are looking at. Wow!
2. Djokovic needed his grass daddy, Andy Murray, to go AWOL after 2016
  1. You know how people used to say Murray does everything Djokovic does, but a bit worse? On grass it was the reverse. Murray never lost a set against Prime Djokovic on center court, beating him in 2012 at the Olympics and at 2013 in the Wimbledon final all in straight sets. Murray was becoming the grass version of Stan for Djokovic... but since 2013, they have never played at Wimbledon again. Djokovic's resurgence on grass in 2018-present contained one bit of fortune we don't really talk about - Murray was injured and long gone.
3. Djokovic needed some incredible luck with Moya-era Rafael Nadal
  1. A freak Anderson-Isner match turned the first part of Nadal-Djokovic into an indoor match... then turned it into an indoor match AGAIN in broad sunlight and 30 degrees celsius the following day (for .... reasons...). Nadal is about 1 thousand times better outdoors than indoors, and given how close the match was (194 points to 190, identical winners and UEs, etc), Nadal fans will rightfully argue taking things outdoors would probably have swung things for their man. No comeback slam for Djokovic, the future looking very different, etc.

  2. As clearly the only person (other than Federer) competitive enough to beat Djokovic on grass, Nadal gets a 6-month injury in 2021, allowing Djokovic to win a Berrettini Open with an even easier draw than AO 22.
  3. Then, with Djokovic's rally game looking the worst I've ever seen it, Nadal gets an ab tear that prevents him playing Djokovic in baking conditions on a worn-out, dirt-covered baseline in the 2022 final, allowing Djokovic to win Wimbledon beating - have we blotted it out yet? - Sinner, Norrie and Kyrgios.
4. Djokovic needed Federer to be injured when Djokovic's own level got muggy
  1. I don't have many words to describe Djokovic's level at Wimbledon in 2021 and 2022. It made 2019 look like 2011. Who would have benefitted from facing this absolutely muggy Djokovic, even with his own level vastly declined? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Who was injured in both 2021 and 2022? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Hopefully he is back to save tennis in 2023.

What a perfect meeting of fortunes! What it all tells us?????
Click to expand...
Man your on a mission!
 
P

pj80

Legend
jl809 said:
Djokovic has benefitted from an amazing set of circumstances coming together to allow him to win 7 Wimbledons:

1 (a) He had the weakest competition in his prime and postprime of the 00s ATGs. His prime was perfectly timed; it started when the 2 other ATGs’ grass primes were ending or already over, AND continued when no new ATGs on grass were coming up during his postprime
  1. Federer's prime competition: peak Nadal 2x, peak Roddick 2x, prime Roddick 2x, prime Nadal 1x
  2. Nadal's prime competition: peak Federer 2x, peak Djokovic 1x, prime Federer 1x, preprime Murray 3x
  3. Djokovic's prime competition: prime Nadal 1x, peak Murray 1x, and postprime Federer 2x

  4. Federer's postprime competition: prime Djokovic 2x, prime Murray 2x, postprime Nadal 1x, mugs (Cilic, Raonic, Anderson)
  5. Djokovic's postprime competition: super old Federer 1x, postprime Nadal indoors (see later) 1x, mugs (Berrettini + Kyrgios)
  6. Nadal's postprime competition: lol
1 (b) Djokovic needed to be born much later than Federer to (1) win more than 3 or 4 Wimbledons AND (2) stop Federer winning more than 10 Wimbledons
  1. We know prime Djokovic would have been screwed vs prime Federer on grass because of how prime Djokovic could barely handle postprime Federer (lost to him in 2012, narrow win in 2014). Similarly 2019 shows us that Super Old Federer would have destroyed Super Old Djokovic on grass, given how he nearly beat postprime Djokovic.

  2. 2003 Federer with 2011's competition, 2004 Federer with 2012's competition etc. could win 11 or 12 Wimbledons easily even if Djokovic was still around, because he is better than Djokovic on grass. It's a matchup issue like Nadal at RG.

  3. Even if you swap 2011 Djokovic into 2003 (i.e. give him the weak era) and put 2003 Federer in 2011, Djokovic probably wins 2003, 2005, 2006 and debatably 07. Again, that is 3 or maybe 4 Wimbledons, not the SEVEN (soon to be EIGHT) we are looking at. Wow!
2. Djokovic needed his grass daddy, Andy Murray, to go AWOL after 2016
  1. You know how people used to say Murray does everything Djokovic does, but a bit worse? On grass it was the reverse. Murray never lost a set against Prime Djokovic on center court, beating him in 2012 at the Olympics and at 2013 in the Wimbledon final all in straight sets. Murray was becoming the grass version of Stan for Djokovic... but since 2013, they have never played at Wimbledon again. Djokovic's resurgence on grass in 2018-present contained one bit of fortune we don't really talk about - Murray was injured and long gone.
3. Djokovic needed some incredible luck with Moya-era Rafael Nadal
  1. A freak Anderson-Isner match turned the first part of Nadal-Djokovic into an indoor match... then turned it into an indoor match AGAIN in broad sunlight and 30 degrees celsius the following day (for .... reasons...). Nadal is about 1 thousand times better outdoors than indoors, and given how close the match was (194 points to 190, identical winners and UEs, etc), Nadal fans will rightfully argue taking things outdoors would probably have swung things for their man. No comeback slam for Djokovic, the future looking very different, etc.

  2. As clearly the only person (other than Federer) competitive enough to beat Djokovic on grass, Nadal gets a 6-month injury in 2021, allowing Djokovic to win a Berrettini Open with an even easier draw than AO 22.
  3. Then, with Djokovic's rally game looking the worst I've ever seen it, Nadal gets an ab tear that prevents him playing Djokovic in baking conditions on a worn-out, dirt-covered baseline in the 2022 final, allowing Djokovic to win Wimbledon beating - have we blotted it out yet? - Sinner, Norrie and Kyrgios.
4. Djokovic needed Federer to be injured when Djokovic's own level got muggy
  1. I don't have many words to describe Djokovic's level at Wimbledon in 2021 and 2022. It made 2019 look like 2011. Who would have benefitted from facing this absolutely muggy Djokovic, even with his own level vastly declined? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Who was injured in both 2021 and 2022? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Hopefully he is back to save tennis in 2023.

What a perfect meeting of fortunes! What it all tells us?????
Click to expand...
it tells us you need to accept 21>20
 
RF-18

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
djokovic-wimbledon-combo.ashx
 
Russeljones

Russeljones

Talk Tennis Guru
jl809 said:
Djokovic has benefitted from an amazing set of circumstances coming together to allow him to win 7 Wimbledons:

1 (a) He had the weakest competition in his prime and postprime of the 00s ATGs. His prime was perfectly timed; it started when the 2 other ATGs’ grass primes were ending or already over, AND continued when no new ATGs on grass were coming up during his postprime
  1. Federer's prime competition: peak Nadal 2x, peak Roddick 2x, prime Roddick 2x, prime Nadal 1x
  2. Nadal's prime competition: peak Federer 2x, peak Djokovic 1x, prime Federer 1x, preprime Murray 3x
  3. Djokovic's prime competition: prime Nadal 1x, peak Murray 1x, and postprime Federer 2x

  4. Federer's postprime competition: prime Djokovic 2x, prime Murray 2x, postprime Nadal 1x, mugs (Cilic, Raonic, Anderson)
  5. Djokovic's postprime competition: super old Federer 1x, postprime Nadal indoors (see later) 1x, mugs (Berrettini + Kyrgios)
  6. Nadal's postprime competition: lol
1 (b) Djokovic needed to be born much later than Federer to (1) win more than 3 or 4 Wimbledons AND (2) stop Federer winning more than 10 Wimbledons
  1. We know prime Djokovic would have been screwed vs prime Federer on grass because of how prime Djokovic could barely handle postprime Federer (lost to him in 2012, narrow win in 2014). Similarly 2019 shows us that Super Old Federer would have destroyed Super Old Djokovic on grass, given how he nearly beat postprime Djokovic.

  2. 2003 Federer with 2011's competition, 2004 Federer with 2012's competition etc. could win 11 or 12 Wimbledons easily even if Djokovic was still around, because he is better than Djokovic on grass. It's a matchup issue like Nadal at RG.

  3. Even if you swap 2011 Djokovic into 2003 (i.e. give him the weak era) and put 2003 Federer in 2011, Djokovic probably wins 2003, 2005, 2006 and debatably 07. Again, that is 3 or maybe 4 Wimbledons, not the SEVEN (soon to be EIGHT) we are looking at. Wow!
2. Djokovic needed his grass daddy, Andy Murray, to go AWOL after 2016
  1. You know how people used to say Murray does everything Djokovic does, but a bit worse? On grass it was the reverse. Murray never lost a set against Prime Djokovic on center court, beating him in 2012 at the Olympics and at 2013 in the Wimbledon final all in straight sets. Murray was becoming the grass version of Stan for Djokovic... but since 2013, they have never played at Wimbledon again. Djokovic's resurgence on grass in 2018-present contained one bit of fortune we don't really talk about - Murray was injured and long gone.
3. Djokovic needed some incredible luck with Moya-era Rafael Nadal
  1. A freak Anderson-Isner match turned the first part of Nadal-Djokovic into an indoor match... then turned it into an indoor match AGAIN in broad sunlight and 30 degrees celsius the following day (for .... reasons...). Nadal is about 1 thousand times better outdoors than indoors, and given how close the match was (194 points to 190, identical winners and UEs, etc), Nadal fans will rightfully argue taking things outdoors would probably have swung things for their man. No comeback slam for Djokovic, the future looking very different, etc.

  2. As clearly the only person (other than Federer) competitive enough to beat Djokovic on grass, Nadal gets a 6-month injury in 2021, allowing Djokovic to win a Berrettini Open with an even easier draw than AO 22.
  3. Then, with Djokovic's rally game looking the worst I've ever seen it, Nadal gets an ab tear that prevents him playing Djokovic in baking conditions on a worn-out, dirt-covered baseline in the 2022 final, allowing Djokovic to win Wimbledon beating - have we blotted it out yet? - Sinner, Norrie and Kyrgios.
4. Djokovic needed Federer to be injured when Djokovic's own level got muggy
  1. I don't have many words to describe Djokovic's level at Wimbledon in 2021 and 2022. It made 2019 look like 2011. Who would have benefitted from facing this absolutely muggy Djokovic, even with his own level vastly declined? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Who was injured in both 2021 and 2022? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Hopefully he is back to save tennis in 2023.

What a perfect meeting of fortunes! What it all tells us?????
Click to expand...
You really believe Djokovic has anything to worry about on grass vs Nadal? For me 2007 and 2008 were by far Nadal's greatest grass seasons. He never got close to those levels again. Djokovic, on the other hand, became more and more competent in the post-2010 era.

Don't really see the need for this treatise. You really can only beat whoever you have in front of you.
 
R

Rina

Hall of Fame
And here is the answer as to who has the most insane fanbase.....Hint, as many here need it, it is NOT Djokovic.
 
Bubcay

Bubcay

Legend
jl809 said:
Djokovic has benefitted from an amazing set of circumstances coming together to allow him to win 7 Wimbledons:

1 (a) He had the weakest competition in his prime and postprime of the 00s ATGs. His prime was perfectly timed; it started when the 2 other ATGs’ grass primes were ending or already over, AND continued when no new ATGs on grass were coming up during his postprime
  1. Federer's prime competition: peak Nadal 2x, peak Roddick 2x, prime Roddick 2x, prime Nadal 1x
  2. Nadal's prime competition: peak Federer 2x, peak Djokovic 1x, prime Federer 1x, preprime Murray 3x
  3. Djokovic's prime competition: prime Nadal 1x, peak Murray 1x, and postprime Federer 2x

  4. Federer's postprime competition: prime Djokovic 2x, prime Murray 2x, postprime Nadal 1x, mugs (Cilic, Raonic, Anderson)
  5. Djokovic's postprime competition: super old Federer 1x, postprime Nadal indoors (see later) 1x, mugs (Berrettini + Kyrgios)
  6. Nadal's postprime competition: lol
1 (b) Djokovic needed to be born much later than Federer to (1) win more than 3 or 4 Wimbledons AND (2) stop Federer winning more than 10 Wimbledons
  1. We know prime Djokovic would have been screwed vs prime Federer on grass because of how prime Djokovic could barely handle postprime Federer (lost to him in 2012, narrow win in 2014). Similarly 2019 shows us that Super Old Federer would have destroyed Super Old Djokovic on grass, given how he nearly beat postprime Djokovic.

  2. 2003 Federer with 2011's competition, 2004 Federer with 2012's competition etc. could win 11 or 12 Wimbledons easily even if Djokovic was still around, because he is better than Djokovic on grass. It's a matchup issue like Nadal at RG.

  3. Even if you swap 2011 Djokovic into 2003 (i.e. give him the weak era) and put 2003 Federer in 2011, Djokovic probably wins 2003, 2005, 2006 and debatably 07. Again, that is 3 or maybe 4 Wimbledons, not the SEVEN (soon to be EIGHT) we are looking at. Wow!
2. Djokovic needed his grass daddy, Andy Murray, to go AWOL after 2016
  1. You know how people used to say Murray does everything Djokovic does, but a bit worse? On grass it was the reverse. Murray never lost a set against Prime Djokovic on center court, beating him in 2012 at the Olympics and at 2013 in the Wimbledon final all in straight sets. Murray was becoming the grass version of Stan for Djokovic... but since 2013, they have never played at Wimbledon again. Djokovic's resurgence on grass in 2018-present contained one bit of fortune we don't really talk about - Murray was injured and long gone.
3. Djokovic needed some incredible luck with Moya-era Rafael Nadal
  1. A freak Anderson-Isner match turned the first part of Nadal-Djokovic into an indoor match... then turned it into an indoor match AGAIN in broad sunlight and 30 degrees celsius the following day (for .... reasons...). Nadal is about 1 thousand times better outdoors than indoors, and given how close the match was (194 points to 190, identical winners and UEs, etc), Nadal fans will rightfully argue taking things outdoors would probably have swung things for their man. No comeback slam for Djokovic, the future looking very different, etc.

  2. As clearly the only person (other than Federer) competitive enough to beat Djokovic on grass, Nadal gets a 6-month injury in 2021, allowing Djokovic to win a Berrettini Open with an even easier draw than AO 22.
  3. Then, with Djokovic's rally game looking the worst I've ever seen it, Nadal gets an ab tear that prevents him playing Djokovic in baking conditions on a worn-out, dirt-covered baseline in the 2022 final, allowing Djokovic to win Wimbledon beating - have we blotted it out yet? - Sinner, Norrie and Kyrgios.
4. Djokovic needed Federer to be injured when Djokovic's own level got muggy
  1. I don't have many words to describe Djokovic's level at Wimbledon in 2021 and 2022. It made 2019 look like 2011. Who would have benefitted from facing this absolutely muggy Djokovic, even with his own level vastly declined? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Who was injured in both 2021 and 2022? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Hopefully he is back to save tennis in 2023.

What a perfect meeting of fortunes! What it all tells us?????
Click to expand...
giphy.webp
 
InsuranceMan

InsuranceMan

Professional
jl809 said:
Djokovic has benefitted from an amazing set of circumstances coming together to allow him to win 7 Wimbledons:

1 (a) He had the weakest competition in his prime and postprime of the 00s ATGs. His prime was perfectly timed; it started when the 2 other ATGs’ grass primes were ending or already over, AND continued when no new ATGs on grass were coming up during his postprime
  1. Federer's prime competition: peak Nadal 2x, peak Roddick 2x, prime Roddick 2x, prime Nadal 1x
  2. Nadal's prime competition: peak Federer 2x, peak Djokovic 1x, prime Federer 1x, preprime Murray 3x
  3. Djokovic's prime competition: prime Nadal 1x, peak Murray 1x, and postprime Federer 2x

  4. Federer's postprime competition: prime Djokovic 2x, prime Murray 2x, postprime Nadal 1x, mugs (Cilic, Raonic, Anderson)
  5. Djokovic's postprime competition: super old Federer 1x, postprime Nadal indoors (see later) 1x, mugs (Berrettini + Kyrgios)
  6. Nadal's postprime competition: lol
1 (b) Djokovic needed to be born much later than Federer to (1) win more than 3 or 4 Wimbledons AND (2) stop Federer winning more than 10 Wimbledons
  1. We know prime Djokovic would have been screwed vs prime Federer on grass because of how prime Djokovic could barely handle postprime Federer (lost to him in 2012, narrow win in 2014). Similarly 2019 shows us that Super Old Federer would have destroyed Super Old Djokovic on grass, given how he nearly beat postprime Djokovic.

  2. 2003 Federer with 2011's competition, 2004 Federer with 2012's competition etc. could win 11 or 12 Wimbledons easily even if Djokovic was still around, because he is better than Djokovic on grass. It's a matchup issue like Nadal at RG.

  3. Even if you swap 2011 Djokovic into 2003 (i.e. give him the weak era) and put 2003 Federer in 2011, Djokovic probably wins 2003, 2005, 2006 and debatably 07. Again, that is 3 or maybe 4 Wimbledons, not the SEVEN (soon to be EIGHT) we are looking at. Wow!
2. Djokovic needed his grass daddy, Andy Murray, to go AWOL after 2016
  1. You know how people used to say Murray does everything Djokovic does, but a bit worse? On grass it was the reverse. Murray never lost a set against Prime Djokovic on center court, beating him in 2012 at the Olympics and at 2013 in the Wimbledon final all in straight sets. Murray was becoming the grass version of Stan for Djokovic... but since 2013, they have never played at Wimbledon again. Djokovic's resurgence on grass in 2018-present contained one bit of fortune we don't really talk about - Murray was injured and long gone.
3. Djokovic needed some incredible luck with Moya-era Rafael Nadal
  1. A freak Anderson-Isner match turned the first part of Nadal-Djokovic into an indoor match... then turned it into an indoor match AGAIN in broad sunlight and 30 degrees celsius the following day (for .... reasons...). Nadal is about 1 thousand times better outdoors than indoors, and given how close the match was (194 points to 190, identical winners and UEs, etc), Nadal fans will rightfully argue taking things outdoors would probably have swung things for their man. No comeback slam for Djokovic, the future looking very different, etc.

  2. As clearly the only person (other than Federer) competitive enough to beat Djokovic on grass, Nadal gets a 6-month injury in 2021, allowing Djokovic to win a Berrettini Open with an even easier draw than AO 22.
  3. Then, with Djokovic's rally game looking the worst I've ever seen it, Nadal gets an ab tear that prevents him playing Djokovic in baking conditions on a worn-out, dirt-covered baseline in the 2022 final, allowing Djokovic to win Wimbledon beating - have we blotted it out yet? - Sinner, Norrie and Kyrgios.
4. Djokovic needed Federer to be injured when Djokovic's own level got muggy
  1. I don't have many words to describe Djokovic's level at Wimbledon in 2021 and 2022. It made 2019 look like 2011. Who would have benefitted from facing this absolutely muggy Djokovic, even with his own level vastly declined? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Who was injured in both 2021 and 2022? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Hopefully he is back to save tennis in 2023.

What a perfect meeting of fortunes! What it all tells us?????
Click to expand...
Someone puts time and effort into a well-articulated and in-depth post for the forum trying to show their honest opinion: 1 legit response and the others just accusing of salt what it tells us

But I will say this is very similar to the other person’s post. There are three existing arguments to defend fed, everything else has been taken by djokodal.

1. Is the most titles. Except arguing No.1 tells people you’re delusional because no one cares about titles. Ruud could make his career a contender if adds a few more 250’s to his career. Only person who cares is Connors and he’s not even in contention for GOAT race. There’s no WTF over Rafa either because Djokovic has a bunch as well, and won some in a row, and has more of big titles than Roger.

2. The other line of thought is arguing weakera. I think everyone who thinks objectively agree that this era is pretty pathetic, since around 2017-2016 mid season. Yes 2004-2007 was no coliseum either, inb4 someone replies with “bjorkman”. I’d say this one is still in progress, era hasn’t finished yet, can’t jump to conclusions because this needs to play itself out. Maybe Rafa really is serving better, flattening the FH when he needs to, Moya strategy all adding up to him building his level and compensating somewhat for his drop in fitness. But there is some merit to this, I mean when Christian garin is one match away from center court final at Wimbledon it doesn’t look good.

3. He is the most skilled player and the biggest talent to pick up a racket, which is sort of an admission that djokodal is mentally better, and thus, inb4 40-15.
 
Last edited:
RS

RS

Talk Tennis Guru
jl809 said:
Djokovic has benefitted from an amazing set of circumstances coming together to allow him to win 7 Wimbledons:

1 (a) He had the weakest competition in his prime and postprime of the 00s ATGs. His prime was perfectly timed; it started when the 2 other ATGs’ grass primes were ending or already over, AND continued when no new ATGs on grass were coming up during his postprime
  1. Federer's prime competition: peak Nadal 2x, peak Roddick 2x, prime Roddick 2x, prime Nadal 1x
  2. Nadal's prime competition: peak Federer 2x, peak Djokovic 1x, prime Federer 1x, preprime Murray 3x
  3. Djokovic's prime competition: prime Nadal 1x, peak Murray 1x, and postprime Federer 2x

  4. Federer's postprime competition: prime Djokovic 2x, prime Murray 2x, postprime Nadal 1x, mugs (Cilic, Raonic, Anderson)
  5. Djokovic's postprime competition: super old Federer 1x, postprime Nadal indoors (see later) 1x, mugs (Berrettini + Kyrgios)
  6. Nadal's postprime competition: lol
1 (b) Djokovic needed to be born much later than Federer to (1) win more than 3 or 4 Wimbledons AND (2) stop Federer winning more than 10 Wimbledons
  1. We know prime Djokovic would have been screwed vs prime Federer on grass because of how prime Djokovic could barely handle postprime Federer (lost to him in 2012, narrow win in 2014). Similarly 2019 shows us that Super Old Federer would have destroyed Super Old Djokovic on grass, given how he nearly beat postprime Djokovic.

  2. 2003 Federer with 2011's competition, 2004 Federer with 2012's competition etc. could win 11 or 12 Wimbledons easily even if Djokovic was still around, because he is better than Djokovic on grass. It's a matchup issue like Nadal at RG.

  3. Even if you swap 2011 Djokovic into 2003 (i.e. give him the weak era) and put 2003 Federer in 2011, Djokovic probably wins 2003, 2005, 2006 and debatably 07. Again, that is 3 or maybe 4 Wimbledons, not the SEVEN (soon to be EIGHT) we are looking at. Wow!
2. Djokovic needed his grass daddy, Andy Murray, to go AWOL after 2016
  1. You know how people used to say Murray does everything Djokovic does, but a bit worse? On grass it was the reverse. Murray never lost a set against Prime Djokovic on center court, beating him in 2012 at the Olympics and at 2013 in the Wimbledon final all in straight sets. Murray was becoming the grass version of Stan for Djokovic... but since 2013, they have never played at Wimbledon again. Djokovic's resurgence on grass in 2018-present contained one bit of fortune we don't really talk about - Murray was injured and long gone.
3. Djokovic needed some incredible luck with Moya-era Rafael Nadal
  1. A freak Anderson-Isner match turned the first part of Nadal-Djokovic into an indoor match... then turned it into an indoor match AGAIN in broad sunlight and 30 degrees celsius the following day (for .... reasons...). Nadal is about 1 thousand times better outdoors than indoors, and given how close the match was (194 points to 190, identical winners and UEs, etc), Nadal fans will rightfully argue taking things outdoors would probably have swung things for their man. No comeback slam for Djokovic, the future looking very different, etc.

  2. As clearly the only person (other than Federer) competitive enough to beat Djokovic on grass, Nadal gets a 6-month injury in 2021, allowing Djokovic to win a Berrettini Open with an even easier draw than AO 22.
  3. Then, with Djokovic's rally game looking the worst I've ever seen it, Nadal gets an ab tear that prevents him playing Djokovic in baking conditions on a worn-out, dirt-covered baseline in the 2022 final, allowing Djokovic to win Wimbledon beating - have we blotted it out yet? - Sinner, Norrie and Kyrgios.
4. Djokovic needed Federer to be injured when Djokovic's own level got muggy
  1. I don't have many words to describe Djokovic's level at Wimbledon in 2021 and 2022. It made 2019 look like 2011. Who would have benefitted from facing this absolutely muggy Djokovic, even with his own level vastly declined? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Who was injured in both 2021 and 2022? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Hopefully he is back to save tennis in 2023.

What a perfect meeting of fortunes! What it all tells us?????
Click to expand...
Peak Djokovic vs Peak Murray 10 matches at Wim?
 
L

Lauren_Girl'

Semi-Pro
He beat Nadal twice in 2 completed matches in Wimbledon (his only loss was a withdrawal) and he is 3-1 against Federer, 3-0 in finals. How is he lucky? He would have beaten Federer in 2021, 2018 and most likely 2011 too. If his 2 best rivals can't beat him in Wimbledon, then it simply means one thing.

Murray his grass daddy? Please. They played once in BO5. That's like saying that Skatkhovsky is Federer's daddy on grass. Ridiculous statement.

Federer beat guys like Cilic, Roddick and Philipoussis in Wimbledon finals. Nadal beat Berdych for his last Wimbledon. That's about as "weak" as Berrettini or Kyrgios.
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
Imagine saying someone's grass prime was over at 25 while they went on to win 13 other Slams since their last Wimbledon, and thinking this a strong argument. Nadal would have stopped Djokovic in 2021 and 2022? Based on what? The Murray section is weak too. He would have beaten Murray the next year in 2014 if Dimitrov didn't do it for him. Djokovic has won 28 straight matches at Wimbledon and in that streak he has beaten Federer, Nadal, Berrettini, Hurkacz, Anderson, Kyrgios, Sinner and Van Rijthoven, who are the best grass players he could face during these years. It's not his problem that he is above the field and too good for them.
 
Last edited:
S

StrongRule

G.O.A.T.
NoleFam said:
Imagine saying someone's grass prime was over at 25 while they went on to win 13 other Slams since their last Wimbledon, and thinking this a strong argument. Nadal would have stopped Djokovic in 2021 and 2022? Based on what? The Murray section is weak too. He would beaten Murray the next year in 2014 if Dimitrov didn't do it for him. Djokovic has won 28 straight matches at Wimbledon and in that streak he has beaten Federer, Nadal, Berrettini, Hurkacz, Anderson, Kyrgios, Sinner and Van Rijthoven, who are the best grass players he could face during these years. It's not his problem that he is above the field and too good for them.
Click to expand...
The fact that you have to mention players like Sinner, Hurkacz and Van Rijthoven says it all. As for Kyrgios, he was Nadal's second round opponent just a few years ago. Definitely a very tough opponent for a second round. But for a final?
 
NoleFam

NoleFam

Talk Tennis Guru
StrongRule said:
The fact that you have to mention players like Sinner, Hurkacz and Van Rijthoven says it all. As for Kyrgios, he was Nadal's second round opponent just a few years ago. Definitely a very tough opponent for a second round. But for a final?
Click to expand...
Hurkacz just won Halle beating Kyrgios, FAA and Medvedev and made the Wimbledon SF last year. Van Rijthoven won a grass title this year beating Fritz, Medvedev and FAA and 5 top 20 players in his run this grass season. That's why I mentioned them. We saw Sinner and Kyrgios' levels this year. It's not the strongest grass field we have seen but Djokovic is better than them period. If it's so weak then Nadal should be taking advantage of it but he hasn't even made a final in the weaker years from 2017-2022.
 
Marco Rotim

Marco Rotim

Semi-Pro
Safe to say that Grass Tennis should be measured on the level of play, if the absolute peak level of play is 10 on Grass then :

Sampras would be 10/10 at his absolute best and averaging 9+ in his prime, so Goran and others never could touch 9 so they never beat him
Federer would be 10/10 at his absolute best and averaging 9+ in his prime, so nobody could beat him except Nadal who caught Federer at below 9 in 08 so Nadal peaked to almost 9 to beat him.
Novak would be 9.2+/10 at his absolute best and averages 8.5 in his prime, so nobody can beat him because old Federer could never cross 8.5/10 in 2010s and Kyrgios/Berretini operate at 6/10 capacity, hence Novak's records are inflated but he clearly is the best of his time period when he is winning slams.

Am I right? @RS @NonP @Russeljones @Kralingen @MichaelNadal
 
Last edited:
uniq

uniq

New User
The amount of toxic people on this forum is insane
Too many retar.ds wasting their time trying to tell something negative about people who achieved something they cant even dream about
 
E

ElisRF

Hall of Fame
Don't think Nadal 2021/2022 matters so much and the tone is a snarky against Djokovic and underselling him a bit but IMHO the 8-7 is less than the really difference in grass ability between Fed and Djokovic.

I feel like Djokovic underachieved at USO while overachieved at W.
 
DSH

DSH

G.O.A.T.
jl809 said:
Djokovic has benefitted from an amazing set of circumstances coming together to allow him to win 7 Wimbledons:

1 (a) He had the weakest competition in his prime and postprime of the 00s ATGs. His prime was perfectly timed; it started when the 2 other ATGs’ grass primes were ending or already over, AND continued when no new ATGs on grass were coming up during his postprime
  1. Federer's prime competition: peak Nadal 2x, peak Roddick 2x, prime Nadal 1x, prime Roddick 2x
  2. Nadal's prime competition: peak Federer 2x, peak Djokovic 1x, prime Federer 1x, preprime Murray 3x
  3. Djokovic's prime competition: prime Nadal 1x, peak Murray 1x, and postprime Federer 2x

  4. Federer's postprime competition: prime Djokovic 2x, prime Murray 2x, postprime Nadal 1x, mugs (Cilic, Raonic, Anderson)
  5. Djokovic's postprime competition: super old Federer 1x, postprime Nadal indoors (see later) 1x, mugs (Berrettini + Kyrgios)
  6. Nadal's postprime competition: lol
1 (b) Djokovic needed to be born much later than Federer to (1) win more than 3 or 4 Wimbledons AND (2) stop Federer winning more than 10 Wimbledons
  1. We know prime Djokovic would have been screwed vs prime Federer on grass because of how prime Djokovic could barely handle postprime Federer (lost to him in 2012, narrow win in 2014). Similarly 2019 shows us that Super Old Federer would have destroyed Super Old Djokovic on grass, given how he nearly beat postprime Djokovic.

  2. 2003 Federer with 2011's competition, 2004 Federer with 2012's competition etc. could win 11 or 12 Wimbledons easily even if Djokovic was still around, because he is better than Djokovic on grass. It's a matchup issue like Nadal at RG.

  3. Even if you swap 2011 Djokovic into 2003 (i.e. give him the weak era) and put 2003 Federer in 2011, Djokovic probably wins 2003, 2005, 2006 and debatably 07. Again, that is 3 or maybe 4 Wimbledons, not the SEVEN (soon to be EIGHT) we are looking at. Wow!
2. Djokovic avoided his grass daddy, Andy Murray, the last 6 times he won Wimbledon
  1. You know how people used to say Murray does everything Djokovic does, but a bit worse? On grass it was the reverse. Murray never lost a set against Prime Djokovic on center court, beating him in 2012 at the Olympics and at 2013 in the Wimbledon final all in straight sets. Murray was becoming the grass version of Stan for Djokovic... but since 2013, they have never played at Wimbledon again. Djokovic's titles in 2014 and 15 and his resurgence on grass in 2018-present contained one bit of fortune we don't really talk about - no Murray
3. Djokovic needed some incredible luck with Moya-era Rafael Nadal
  1. A freak Anderson-Isner match turned the first part of Nadal-Djokovic into an indoor match... then turned it into an indoor match AGAIN in broad sunlight and 30 degrees celsius the following day (for .... reasons...). Nadal is about 1000 times better outdoors than indoors, and given how close the match was (194 points to 190, identical winners and UEs, etc), Nadal fans will rightfully argue taking things outdoors would probably have swung things for their man. No comeback slam for Djokovic, the future looking very different, etc.

  2. As clearly the only person (other than Federer) competitive enough to beat Djokovic on grass, Nadal gets a 6-month injury in 2021, allowing Djokovic to win a Berrettini Open with an even easier draw than AO 22.
  3. Then, with Djokovic's rally game looking the worst I've ever seen it, Nadal gets an ab tear that prevents him playing Djokovic in baking conditions on a worn-out, dirt-covered baseline in the 2022 final, allowing Djokovic to win Wimbledon beating - have we blotted it out yet? - Sinner, Norrie and Kyrgios.
4. Djokovic needed Federer to be injured when Djokovic's own level got muggy
  1. I don't have many words to describe Djokovic's level at Wimbledon in 2021 and 2022. It made 2019 look like 2011. Who would have benefitted from facing this absolutely muggy Djokovic, even with his own level vastly declined? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Who was injured in both 2021 and 2022? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Hopefully he is back to save tennis in 2023.

What a perfect meeting of fortunes! What it all tells us?????
Click to expand...
Well, for a guy to be more successful in a Major tournament in his 30s than in his 20s defies all logic, so to speak.
:sneaky:
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
jl809 said:
2. Djokovic avoided his grass daddy, Andy Murray, the last 6 times he won Wimbledon
  1. You know how people used to say Murray does everything Djokovic does, but a bit worse? On grass it was the reverse. Murray never lost a set against Prime Djokovic on center court, beating him in 2012 at the Olympics and at 2013 in the Wimbledon final all in straight sets. Murray was becoming the grass version of Stan for Djokovic... but since 2013, they have never played at Wimbledon again. Djokovic's titles in 2014 and 15 and his resurgence on grass in 2018-present contained one bit of fortune we don't really talk about - no Murray
Click to expand...
Djokovic was there, waiting for Murray and he never showed up. How is this Novak's fault?
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
weakera said:
Washed Murray probably eliminates Djokovic in the quarters if Isner didn't ruin everything by going full robot in that match.
Click to expand...
weakera: "Full bot"

Actual match: Isner wins more return points than Murray, breaks him twice for two of the sets he won
 
duaneeo

duaneeo

Legend
NoleFam said:
Djokovic has won 28 straight matches at Wimbledon and in that streak he has beaten Federer, Nadal, Berrettini, Hurkacz, Anderson, Kyrgios, Sinner and Van Rijthoven, who are the best grass players he could face during these years.
Click to expand...

LOL! Exactly.
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
duaneeo said:
LOL! Exactly.
Click to expand...
Berrettini would have won Wimbledon 100% if it weren't for Novak; he is a legitimate threat on grass and the second betting favorite the year he made the final

Others have shown flashes (Anderson, Hurkacz, Kyrgios) and in the right circumstances, could also have won Wimbledon (without Novak)

Too early to tell for Sinner and van Rijthoven
 
T

T007

Hall of Fame
jl809 said:
Djokovic has benefitted from an amazing set of circumstances coming together to allow him to win 7 Wimbledons:

1 (a) He had the weakest competition in his prime and postprime of the 00s ATGs. His prime was perfectly timed; it started when the 2 other ATGs’ grass primes were ending or already over, AND continued when no new ATGs on grass were coming up during his postprime
  1. Federer's prime competition: peak Nadal 2x, peak Roddick 2x, prime Nadal 1x, prime Roddick 2x
  2. Nadal's prime competition: peak Federer 2x, peak Djokovic 1x, prime Federer 1x, preprime Murray 3x
  3. Djokovic's prime competition: prime Nadal 1x, peak Murray 1x, and postprime Federer 2x

  4. Federer's postprime competition: prime Djokovic 2x, prime Murray 2x, postprime Nadal 1x, mugs (Cilic, Raonic, Anderson)
  5. Djokovic's postprime competition: super old Federer 1x, postprime Nadal indoors (see later) 1x, mugs (Berrettini + Kyrgios)
  6. Nadal's postprime competition: lol
1 (b) Djokovic needed to be born much later than Federer to (1) win more than 3 or 4 Wimbledons AND (2) stop Federer winning more than 10 Wimbledons
  1. We know prime Djokovic would have been screwed vs prime Federer on grass because of how prime Djokovic could barely handle postprime Federer (lost to him in 2012, narrow win in 2014). Similarly 2019 shows us that Super Old Federer would have destroyed Super Old Djokovic on grass, given how he nearly beat postprime Djokovic.

  2. 2003 Federer with 2011's competition, 2004 Federer with 2012's competition etc. could win 11 or 12 Wimbledons easily even if Djokovic was still around, because he is better than Djokovic on grass. It's a matchup issue like Nadal at RG.

  3. Even if you swap 2011 Djokovic into 2003 (i.e. give him the weak era) and put 2003 Federer in 2011, Djokovic probably wins 2003, 2005, 2006 and debatably 07. Again, that is 3 or maybe 4 Wimbledons, not the SEVEN (soon to be EIGHT) we are looking at. Wow!
2. Djokovic avoided his grass daddy, Andy Murray, the last 6 times he won Wimbledon
  1. You know how people used to say Murray does everything Djokovic does, but a bit worse? On grass it was the reverse. Murray never lost a set against Prime Djokovic on center court, beating him in 2012 at the Olympics and at 2013 in the Wimbledon final all in straight sets. Murray was becoming the grass version of Stan for Djokovic... but since 2013, they have never played at Wimbledon again. Djokovic's titles in 2014 and 15 and his resurgence on grass in 2018-present contained one bit of fortune we don't really talk about - no Murray
3. Djokovic needed some incredible luck with Moya-era Rafael Nadal
  1. A freak Anderson-Isner match turned the first part of Nadal-Djokovic into an indoor match... then turned it into an indoor match AGAIN in broad sunlight and 30 degrees celsius the following day (for .... reasons...). Nadal is about 1000 times better outdoors than indoors, and given how close the match was (194 points to 190, identical winners and UEs, etc), Nadal fans will rightfully argue taking things outdoors would probably have swung things for their man. No comeback slam for Djokovic, the future looking very different, etc.

  2. As clearly the only person (other than Federer) competitive enough to beat Djokovic on grass, Nadal gets a 6-month injury in 2021, allowing Djokovic to win a Berrettini Open with an even easier draw than AO 22.
  3. Then, with Djokovic's rally game looking the worst I've ever seen it, Nadal gets an ab tear that prevents him playing Djokovic in baking conditions on a worn-out, dirt-covered baseline in the 2022 final, allowing Djokovic to win Wimbledon beating - have we blotted it out yet? - Sinner, Norrie and Kyrgios.
4. Djokovic needed Federer to be injured when Djokovic's own level got muggy
  1. I don't have many words to describe Djokovic's level at Wimbledon in 2021 and 2022. It made 2019 look like 2011. Who would have benefitted from facing this absolutely muggy Djokovic, even with his own level vastly declined? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Who was injured in both 2021 and 2022? The 2019 Wimbledon finalist. Hopefully he is back to save tennis in 2023.

What a perfect meeting of fortunes! What it all tells us?????
Click to expand...
Great Analysis...at best he is good for 3 titles. 7 titles are due to career inflation era
 
RS

RS

Talk Tennis Guru
Vanilla Slice said:
Some people got a lot of time on their hands to defend athletes who don’t know the exist or likely care as much about these things at the end of the day.
Click to expand...
Always baffles me how we spend so much time on stuff while the big 3 actually play the matches and make the money yet we are as obsessed as them :-D
 
Djokovic_is_the_best#1

Djokovic_is_the_best#1

Talk Tennis Guru
GabeT said:
And I can’t believe that there are still posters that don’t get that a player like Novak will adjust his level of play depending on who he is facing
Click to expand...
Exactly he does this better than anyone. That’s why he’s so successful as he can win in different ways depending on the opponent, surface or weather conditions
 
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