Public Tennis court etiquette

[FlamingCheeto]

that's why our 6 courts have a chalkboard where you sign up with your time the moment you take the court and put your name on the waiting list to "bump" the next group after an hour is up.

 

[RobS]

Public tennis courts in Fairfax Virginia & Montgomery Maryland do NOT allow any private coaching without written permission from the county park authority, and the instructor has to pay a fee to the park authority. That is explicitly stated on the sign post to the fence of the tennis courts. You're a tax payer is irrelevant.



Just because you have never seen or heard about it, it doesn't mean that it does not happen. Fairfax county Virginia & Montgomery County Maryland do require teaching pro to carry proof of insurance before they can rent the county public tennis courts. No insurance, no tennis courts.

In MoCo and I believe the entire state of Maryland, you pay the permit fee and for court time to provide instruction but you can't charge the student for anything more than the actual court time cost.. The permit for instruction is intended for organizations, schools, etc., not the freelancer. The general rules for the parks is no commercial activity, period. If you want to pay for instruction, the county wants you to go to Cabin John or wherever and pay for a county employed instructor. The parks are there for public use followed by community based non-profit use. People still break the rules, obviously, whether it's tennis lessons, boot camp workouts, kids soccer clinics, etc. The smart violators fly below the radar and occupy courts and fields that are generally empty but if you post up for a few hours with a teaching basket of balls at a neighborhood park in Bethesda for example, you won't get away with it for long.

 

[bobleenov1963]

In MoCo and I believe the entire state of Maryland, you pay the permit fee and for court time to provide instruction but you can't charge the student for anything more than the actual court time cost.. The permit for instruction is intended for organizations, schools, etc., not the freelancer. The general rules for the parks is no commercial activity, period. If you want to pay for instruction, the county wants you to go to Cabin John or wherever and pay for a county employed instructor. The parks are there for public use followed by community based non-profit use. People still break the rules, obviously, whether it's tennis lessons, boot camp workouts, kids soccer clinics, etc. The smart violators fly below the radar and occupy courts and fields that are generally empty but if you post up for a few hours with a teaching basket of balls at a neighborhood park in Bethesda for example, you won't get away with it for long.

I can definitely tell you that I've seen people getting away with private instructions on public courts without permits where I live in Potomac and nobody bothers them, and it's been going on for years. Go to either Churchill/Wootten HS or Robert Frost/Hoover MS and see for yourself. Btw, Potomac, Bethesda and Rockville are part of MoCo county, right?

 

[RobS]

I can definitely tell you that I've seen people getting away with private instructions on public courts without permits where I live in Potomac and nobody bothers them, and it's been going on for years. Go to either Churchill/Wootten HS or Robert Frost/Hoover MS and see for yourself. Btw, Potomac, Bethesda and Rockville are part of MoCo county, right?

I believe you and I've seen it myself. If the locals don't care, it goes on. At parks like Norwood, Meadowbrook or Westmoreland, the local residents will make a complaint if they can't get a court and someone is squatting giving lessons. If they complain, the Park Police actually show up. The guys I know that taught there for years have moved up the road into NW DC because Bethesda became too crowded and people started complaining. I'm not sure what the rules are at the MoCo public school courts. They fall under a different jurisdiction than the parks which are under Maryland National Capital Park and Planning.

 

[bobleenov1963]

I believe you and I've seen it myself. If the locals don't care, it goes on. At parks like Norwood, Meadowbrook or Westmoreland, the local residents will make a complaint if they can't get a court and someone is squatting giving lessons. If they complain, the Park Police actually show up. The guys I know that taught there for years have moved up the road into NW DC because Bethesda became too crowded and people started complaining. I'm not sure what the rules are at the MoCo public school courts. They fall under a different jurisdiction than the parks which are under Maryland National Capital Park and Planning.

Right on. The Potomac locals don't care because just about all of them are members of Country clubs and they don't use public tennis courts. All of these places have private tennis courts.

 

[RobS]

Right on. The Potomac locals don't care because just about all of them are members of Country clubs and they don't use public tennis courts. All of these places have private tennis courts.

Congo members would probably quit tennis if they had to leave their groomed har-tru courts and hit the public hard courts.

 

[silentkman]

IMO that's not the problem...
the issue is when the instructor hogs a court(s) for multiple hours at a time... forcing folks to wait "longer than usual" (whatever that means to you)
in general probably not an issue if the instructor is waiting on line (if there is one) at the end of each hour
i think arguments like "can't profit of public facilities", are just legalese to stop folks from hogging courts... but if no one is waiting more than a reasonable amount of time, no one cares.

there are courts by me that are hogged by 2 instructors (i use them to teach too), but these 2 instructors are there from like 7a-5p, and folks were taking issue with that (specifically during "prime time weekend hours: 8a-11a" or "prime time weekday hours: 5p-8p"). in my case, i was there for 60m (90m) max, but more importantly when no one was waiting (eg. 12p middle of day when it's hot in summer, and no one typically wants to play)

wow; I didn't know that the instructor would take the courts all day.

 

[stapletonj]

Public tennis courts in Fairfax Virginia & Montgomery Maryland do NOT allow any private coaching without written permission from the county park authority, and the instructor has to pay a fee to the park authority. That is explicitly stated on the sign post to the fence of the tennis courts. You're a tax payer is irrelevant.



Just because you have never seen or heard about it, it doesn't mean that it does not happen. Fairfax county Virginia & Montgomery County Maryland do require teaching pro to carry proof of insurance before they can rent the county public tennis courts. No insurance, no tennis courts.

But would you agree that perhaps, just perhaps, on an internet message board, someone in the profession, a tennis player and avid fan, might have a fairly broad range of experience? And that this hypothetical person might be more aware than the average tennis playing doctor (whose expertise on injuries related to tennis in his 40 years of sports medicine should probably be given a little more weight than that of a lawyer) of a rash of litigation against public entities over bad teaching techniques causing injuries? or the lack thereof?

This particular type of straw man is the bedrock of CALA astroturfing attempts to destroy injured people's rights to keep insurances companies more profitable.

 

[stapletonj]

We had it happen here kinda. HOA courts (but public) in a giant master planned community. They re-surfaced them (roughly 18 courts throughout the community) and went with the lowest bidder to put in plexipave. They were a disaster. The layers delaminated. When it rained they would be soaked for days. They bubbled but didn't crack.

The HOA tried to go after the contractor who did them, but contractor was out of business.

Player got injured while taking a lesson with a pro. Player went after HOA and the privately run tennis club/teaching pro. Settled for a decent sum.

The legal problem for the HOA was ignoring the complaints from players for 2 years about the condition. They didn't shut down the courts, didn't fix them while trying to get the original (now defunct) company to pay. So they had knowledge of the court damage ... that opened up their liability.
The legal problem for the teaching pro was that he had made statements and sent letters to the HOA regarding the danger of the courts and yet continued to teach on them.

This case is a very good object lesson in why you need to be careful and required contractor's bonds and/or use of reputable contractors.

First, in many states, you are faced with a premises liability conundrum. "Open and Obvious" defense. A variation of "Assumption of the Risk".
"The Courts were in terrible shape and a reasonable person could see that, so you assumed the risk when you stepped on the court, so there you are"

Second, the HOA and club and player got sued and SOMEBODY settled "for a decent sum". IMHO, the pro who continued to teach and profit from the facility is probably the most liable, with the club and HOA close behind. And, of course, a decent sum is usually kept confidential. Might be $5000.00,,, or $50,000.00...

Actually, we have a similar situation here in WV. We had a 2 back to back HUGE ice storms in early Feb. multiple trees fell on multiple courts pushing the side fences so far down on several courts that the fences were over the doubles sideline. The park board, in its' wisdom, decided to spend what was apparently their entire years budget on taking away 2 of the tennis courts and converting them to 6 dedicated pickleball courts. (To the extent that they will not even replace a broken $6.50 center strap, even through the high school regional championships. I eventually just bought one myself, put it in and no one the wiser).

TO THIS DAY (almost 8 months later) there has been nothing done to correct the dangerous fences despite multiple calls, etc. In disgust, early one Sat. morn. an anonymous group of silver ninjas, ages 55-75, went to the hardware store, brought their ladders and tools, and hand pushed one of the fences back into place and strapped them up with multiple zip ties, chainlink brackets, etc. This was done in commando raid type fashion, because they were certain that if any employees saw these geezers doing their jobs for them, they would call the cops. One would think that this would shame the park board into doing their jobs. Nope.

 

[mikelikesgatorad]

guess it depends on definition of "avg"... by my the base lesson at one club is $100... but the goes up to $250+ depending on the pro (eg. usually with atp/wta points, coached high level forlks, or at another club a former "teaching" pro was a grandslam champ)

value really depends on the product they are giving/you are receiving.
playing 30x reinforcing the same bad habit IMO can be more expensive than paying that up front cost of the lesson (eg. the cost of breaking that bad habit later).
on the flip side i've received some pretty bad lessons before... and would be terrible value even if i even spent $1.

that said, i am a tiny bit biased

I agree with you in there is a ton of value working with a professional to fix issues with your game. My background is that I took maybe 5 total hours of private lessons as a junior which got me good enough to get into in the 4.5 range as an adult after a break. I practice 1-2 times a week with my friend who is a stronger player and we know what we're working on essentially for free.

I don't believe that a large amount of beginner through 3.5 players have enough money for consistent private lessons.

How often do you believe someone should take a private lesson to be worth it? I'd be able to afford and benefit from one lesson per month but I don't believe beginners would receive the same benefit unless they're also playing at least 2 times a week on their own with practice sessions and match play.

 

[TopspintheTerrible]

Next time after 1 hr, walk onto the court. And let them know you have 0 intention of leaving. If they try to continue, literally stand in the middle of the court. And then nobody gets to play.

I know this is not comfortable or the most optimal solution but selfish folks don't respond to kindness. And they'll continue to hog courts until somebody puts an end to it.

 

[bobleenov1963]

But would you agree that perhaps, just perhaps, on an internet message board, someone in the profession, a tennis player and avid fan, might have a fairly broad range of experience? And that this hypothetical person might be more aware than the average tennis playing doctor (whose expertise on injuries related to tennis in his 40 years of sports medicine should probably be given a little more weight than that of a lawyer) of a rash of litigation against public entities over bad teaching techniques causing injuries? or the lack thereof?

This particular type of straw man is the bedrock of CALA astroturfing attempts to destroy injured people's rights to keep insurances companies more profitable.

What does it have anything to do with what I stated above?

 

[FiddlerDog]

This is why you don't play at public courts.

 

[FiddlerDog]

at my club the lessons are $80/hr + $15 guest fee so not very affordable for the avg person

Yea, that's because the tax payers are paying for the public court time.

 

[FiddlerDog]

Terrible value. Essentially 30x the cost of balls. You'd improve much more playing 30 times with fresh balls every time paid for by you.

What is your rating?

 

[nyta2]

I don't believe that a large amount of beginner through 3.5 players have enough money for consistent private lessons.

How often do you believe someone should take a private lesson to be worth it? I'd be able to afford and benefit from one lesson per month but I don't believe beginners would receive the same benefit unless they're also playing at least 2 times a week on their own with practice sessions and match play.

agree, lessons are expensive, and you often need alot depending on what your goals are.
my personal "formula" for taking lessons... is to take one lesson a month, practice 10-40h in between, before going to my next lesson.
i also "sell" the same formula to my students, but they don't want to do the "homework" (practice) i give them, for 10h... so i have folks coming to me 2x/w, sometimes 3x/w despite my recommendation. i'd say only 10% of folks will actually do the "homework" i prescribe. takeaway is that "lesson" means many things to different people... entertainment, socializing, psychology, exercise, hitting session, networking, etc... not just about getting good at hitting a <insert stroke here>.

 

[bobleenov1963]

This is why you don't play at public courts.

How so? In a wealthy neighborhood, public tennis courts are very well maintained and minimal usage

 

[FiddlerDog]

How so? In a wealthy neighborhood, public tennis courts are very well maintained and minimal usage

I prefer making a reservation.
I will gladly pay your guest fee if we can avoid your congested free public courts.

 

[bobleenov1963]

I prefer making a reservation.
I will gladly pay your guest fee if we can avoid your congested free public courts.

Move to either Langley/Mclean in Virginia or Potomac in Maryland and you will find empty public courts all the times.

 

[FiddlerDog]

My background is that I took maybe 5 total hours of private lessons as a junior which got me good enough to get into in the 4.5 range as an adult after a break.
I don't believe that a large amount of beginner through 3.5 players have enough money for consistent private lessons.
How often do you believe someone should take a private lesson to be worth it?

You are the exception if you made it to 4.5 with 5 lessons. Did you play extensively in junior tournaments? Can you post a video of your current game?

Yes, many people don't have the money for private lessons. Many people can't afford flying, sailing, or car racing, as well.

"Lesson to be worth it" is subjective and relative. It is worth learning how to hold the racket correctly, even if 3.0 level.
But, to get to correct strokes, you need regular feedback or decades of repeated trial and error.
A 4.5 taking a monthly lesson is a world apart from a 3.0 taking a monthly lesson (mostly useless)

 

[DeeeFoo]

This is why you don't play at public courts.

Many of us don't have other options. I wouldn't mind paying a small fee if it guarantees us court time.

 

[J B]

I also don't love the idea of tennis pros giving lessons on private courts. Mainly because I'm trying to play singles and they're feeding a basket to a newbie who keeps spraying them on my court. But also, people suck. Say tennis pro is giving a lesson and his student tears a hamstring doing a drill the pro recommended. Student hires Morgan and Morgan to go after the tennis pro who has zero insurance, so the city gets dragged into it and we as tax payers end up footing the bill.

It's the same reason I tell my wife not to give out free medical advice to neighbors and friends even though she's a doctor. Make an appointment and go through normal channels, there's typically a reason they exist.

then you are an idiot coach. I have 6 million in liability as a PTR coach.

 

[J B]

We had it happen here kinda. HOA courts (but public) in a giant master planned community. They re-surfaced them (roughly 18 courts throughout the community) and went with the lowest bidder to put in plexipave. They were a disaster. The layers delaminated. When it rained they would be soaked for days. They bubbled but didn't crack.

The HOA tried to go after the contractor who did them, but contractor was out of business.

Player got injured while taking a lesson with a pro. Player went after HOA and the privately run tennis club/teaching pro. Settled for a decent sum.

The legal problem for the HOA was ignoring the complaints from players for 2 years about the condition. They didn't shut down the courts, didn't fix them while trying to get the original (now defunct) company to pay. So they had knowledge of the court damage ... that opened up their liability.
The legal problem for the teaching pro was that he had made statements and sent letters to the HOA regarding the danger of the courts and yet continued to teach on them.

if you know anything about civil cases no one is going after someone that has no means to pay. There is NO court that is taking the home of a coach because a player twisted his ankle. He can get a judgement but he'll never get paid. HOA is a different story. If the coach had insurance he is going to do that. A smart coach would say the player insisted on playing there.

 

[J B]

This case is a very good object lesson in why you need to be careful and required contractor's bonds and/or use of reputable contractors.

First, in many states, you are faced with a premises liability conundrum. "Open and Obvious" defense. A variation of "Assumption of the Risk".
"The Courts were in terrible shape and a reasonable person could see that, so you assumed the risk when you stepped on the court, so there you are"

Second, the HOA and club and player got sued and SOMEBODY settled "for a decent sum". IMHO, the pro who continued to teach and profit from the facility is probably the most liable, with the club and HOA close behind. And, of course, a decent sum is usually kept confidential. Might be $5000.00,,, or $50,000.00...

Actually, we have a similar situation here in WV. We had a 2 back to back HUGE ice storms in early Feb. multiple trees fell on multiple courts pushing the side fences so far down on several courts that the fences were over the doubles sideline. The park board, in its' wisdom, decided to spend what was apparently their entire years budget on taking away 2 of the tennis courts and converting them to 6 dedicated pickleball courts. (To the extent that they will not even replace a broken $6.50 center strap, even through the high school regional championships. I eventually just bought one myself, put it in and no one the wiser).

TO THIS DAY (almost 8 months later) there has been nothing done to correct the dangerous fences despite multiple calls, etc. In disgust, early one Sat. morn. an anonymous group of silver ninjas, ages 55-75, went to the hardware store, brought their ladders and tools, and hand pushed one of the fences back into place and strapped them up with multiple zip ties, chainlink brackets, etc. This was done in commando raid type fashion, because they were certain that if any employees saw these geezers doing their jobs for them, they would call the cops. One would think that this would shame the park board into doing their jobs. Nope.

If you are a lawyer you arent a very good one. You go after whomever has the most money, thats going to be the HOA. If the coach had insurance he is going to get the top lawyers on retainer for the PTR or USTA. If the player wants to play on those courts with that coach its not going to be the Coaches fault. Thats like suing me bc the hardtru is in bad shape.

 

[stapletonj]

What does it have anything to do with what I stated above?

"Just because you've never seen it or heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen".

When, as young 20 year old ( I grad. college early) 2LT, I would ask the grizzled SGM (Korea and Vietnam vet) about a potential enemy strategy
that our defensive foxhole (or as it was called at the time "entrenched fighting defensive position") would not account for, I very quickly learned that if the BN Commander jumped in and replied "LT, I have never seen or heard of that, but good question", that was code for "Shut up, newbie".

PS - unlike another poster here, I was not trying to be insulting with this, just a little humor at both our expense.

 

[stapletonj]

While we are at the insult game, naaaahhh, I won't respond in kind.
Just google my last name and lawyer and see what comes up.
In my 43rd year of practice and I have put a jury in the box on a 1st degree murder case.
I have multiple not guilty criminal verdicts
I have multiple 6 figure settlements and verdicts (never quite cracked 7 figures, at least not yet)

FYI....

Some states have straight joint and several liability. If there are 3 defendants, 1 is 55% at fault, 1 is 44% at fault, but one might be only 1% or 0% at fault.
The 2 biggest at fault defendants are financial turnips. The 0 or 1% at fault guy has $1,000,000.00 coverage. Your case is a slam dunk for a million dollar verdict.
You bet your sweet bippy I suing all 3 in the hope that I can get the jury to find the one percent guy 1% at fault. And when the insurance company for Mr. 1% guy offers $600,000.00 to settle, I'm letting my client make that decision (duh) because there is always the chance the jury lets Mr 1% out and you have a million dollar verdict worth ten cents.

AS AN ASIDE

Why did this rule make sense? Because if it is several liability only, companies and banks, etc., would (and still do) "outsource" everything they do that might get them sued, only use the most unscrupulous and cost cutting "subcontractors", who they really controlled, but claimed not to. The big companies and banks, etc., would reap all the profits, and would have the straw man to protect them when the straw man did the bank's dirty work for them.

This is reoccurring across America today as legislatures state by state bow to corporate lobbying and money to strip and limit joint and several liability.

 

[J B]

"Just because you've never seen it or heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen".

When, as young 20 year old ( I grad. college early) 2LT, I would ask the grizzled SGM (Korea and Vietnam vet) about a potential enemy strategy
that our defensive foxhole (or as it was called at the time "entrenched fighting defensive position") would not account for, I very quickly learned that if the BN Commander jumped in and replied "LT, I have never seen or heard of that, but good question", that was code for "Shut up, newbie".

PS - unlike another poster here, I was not trying to be insulting with this, just a little humor at both our expense.

Well i just laughed at the 1st Cav BC that said he still used sand tables when he had real time feeds of the battle field he banned from his TOC. The hot wash was even better when the red flanked him and we all watched it in real time. Sadly it seems that its an Army thing to build your self up as some sort of god and listen and learn from no one. Which is why we are in the mess we are right now.


Eeek friend of mine only takes 7 figure cases.... or maybe thats just what he gets. He goes after who actually has money and doesn't waste his time on a individual living paycheck to paycheck and no assets. So again my comment stands. If you think the coach is at fault and think thats the one you want the jury to focus on... enjoy your judgement you can frame and put on a wall. Its way easier to make a case against the place for the unsafe playing surface than a person who has no expertise on what an unsafe surface is.

 

[Alexrb]

then you are an idiot coach. I have 6 million in liability as a PTR coach.

People like you don't exist in FL. They play dumb here and when something goes wrong just hire an attorney. Attorney's used to not be able to advertise, now it's a billboard every few traffic lights.

 

[stapletonj]

JB - I'm still gonna refrain from your bait. Have your attorney buddy look me up. I'll take all his 750K cases that he turns down.
Or, in other words, rrriiiiiigggghhhhtttt. Sounds like a blowhard to me. I've seen these guys at bar conventions and the singles bars.
they usually drop stuff like that when they are talking to a young lady 30 years their junior and trying to suck in their paunch.

I think you missed my point about joint and several, but whatevs....

Ask your attorney buddy about the "empty chair defense" and see what he says.

 

[chatt_town]

So the other day we arrived at the tennis court at 5 PM. All 6 courts were full and the sign says that if there is a wait for courts then one hour playing is courtesy for the people waiting for a court to play.

So 6 clock rolls around and there are 4 other groups waiting to play, and no one seems to be leaving…

So we go and ask the other groups how long it will be.

One group says 2-3 more hours, another group says they are in a sanctioned match, another group says “I dunno”, another group says they were the most recent on the court, another group says an hour, and another 25 more minutes.

When it was brought up that there are other people waiting and 1 hour courtesy rule was brought up, they just shrugged and said basically whatever. We ended up leaving without playing.

I’m guessing that it is what it is but is this normal among players?

Sounds like your rules need to be changed first of all to be realistic. I mean the group you were with...do you honestly see yourselves stopping at an hour to let someone else play and you are just finishing the first set. I doubt it. The next thing is try to choose days when less people are out. Here for whatever reason on Tues & Thursday...it's standing room only...you go out on Monday or Wednesday and you just about have your pick. Me and the guy I play in singles just basically get there at 4:00 or 4:30 on Tuesday's now. It's just how it is.

 

[nyta2]

Sounds like your rules need to be changed first of all to be realistic. I mean the group you were with...do you honestly see yourselves stopping at an hour to let someone else play and you are just finishing the first set. I doubt it. The next thing is try to choose days when less people are out. Here for whatever reason on Tues & Thursday...it's standing room only...you go out on Monday or Wednesday and you just about have your pick. Me and the guy I play in singles just basically get there at 4:00 or 4:30 on Tuesday's now. It's just how it is.

doesn't matter what the rules are, problem is that they are not enforced.. and it only takes 1 people to not follow the rules for no one to follow the rules.
i can't think of a court around me, without an attendant, where everyone follows the posted rules.
the 1 hour rule in central park nyc works just fine, but there is enforcement... sure i don't want to get off after 1 hour, but at least it's fair.
like you i just go during less busy times.

 

[chatt_town]

doesn't matter what the rules are, problem is that they are not enforced.. and it only takes 1 people to not follow the rules for no one to follow the rules.
i can't think of a court around me, without an attendant, where everyone follows the posted rules.
the 1 hour rule in central park nyc works just fine, but there is enforcement... sure i don't want to get off after 1 hour, but at least it's fair.
like you i just go during less busy times.

I see...and I understand. Yea, where there are is no one to enforce a rule, it's pointless to even put rules up. That nonesense9running people off courts after an hour of play) would never fly down south. They aren't going to pay anyone to stand around and run grown people off the courts. first of all there are more than enough courts here to play and even when there is somewhat of a shortage, you can always go out to a real nice facitly here and I think they may charge less than 5 bucks a person to play a match.lol So glad I live down her as opposed to NY. You all probably got about 3 months to even play outside...what's the weather forecast for this weekend? It's supposed to be in 70's here I think so I'm guessing you all are looking at 12 to 15 inches of snow.lol I'm kidding man. I get it but that sucks.