punch your volleys,...

[Deleted member 23235]

lol, if you came here hell bent on correcting me,.. welcome

I always pooh pooh’ed this tip. wtf does that mean, it looks/feels nothing like a punch, and I’ve spent quite a bit of time on the heavy bag, and boxing.

was reading lavers book, and reading his description of volleys, and he says the same thing, “punch your volley”... except he goes a bit more into the context,... basically just saying, meet the flight of ball head on (Ie don’t chop across or too steep an angle). so the flight of the ball was like a tube, and a cross section of the tube was a flat plane at contact, you want to match your volley swing to the shape of the tube, and “punch” through that flat-plane-cross-section with the strings.

anywho i found this to be an interesting find, and now validates for me that “punching the volley” makes sense as a tip (though the accompanying context is wordy!!)





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[IowaGuy]

lol, if you came here hell bent on correcting me,.. welcome

I always pooh pooh’ed this tip. wtf does that mean, it looks/feels nothing like a punch, and I’ve spent quite a bit of time on the heavy bag, and boxing.

was reading lavers book, and reading his description of volleys, and he says the same thing, “punch your volley”... except he goes a bit more into the context,... basically just saying, meet the flight of ball head on (Ie don’t chop across or too steep an angle). so the flight of the ball was like a tube, and a cross section of the tube was a flat plane at contact, you want to match your volley swing to the shape of the tube, and “punch” through that flat-plane-cross-section with the strings.

anywho i found this to be an interesting find, and now validates for me that “punching the volley” makes sense as a tip (though the accompanying context is wordy!!)

Have you watched much of Rafter?

IMO, he is a good example of "punching" the volley, particularly on the FH side...

 

[atp2015]

lol, if you came here hell bent on learning correct technique from me,.. welcome

of course, thanks!

We have two ways to add force, if you want to strike something with extra force - punch or slap.
A punch is very abbreviated, sharp, sudden and short action on the ball which helps to preserve the racket angle fairly constant, versus slapping which takes the hand angle all over the place. punch is very effective for finishing high volleys. If you don't punch or slap, you are just blocking/catching and may not be able to finish a high, floating slow ball.

It's not a boxing sort of straight on punch, rather sideways like you expect on most tennis shots, but still a punch.

 

[atp2015]

Is this punch or slap?

Have you watched much of Rafter?

IMO, he is a good example of "punching" the volley, particularly on the FH side...

 

[IowaGuy]

Is this punch or slap?

@nytennisaddict is a martial arts guru.

He'll know the difference

 

[atp2015]

@nytennisaddict is a martial arts guru.

He'll know the difference

It looks like a punch and a bit of slap towards the end.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Have you watched much of Rafter?

IMO, he is a good example of "punching" the volley, particularly on the FH side...

I think the key is that Rafter transfers the weight with his legs. So at contact his legs are in the air. Arms have to do virtually nothing...
I think Sampras? said, "Volley with your feet".

 

[mad dog1]

I think the key is that Rafter transfers the weight with his legs. So at contact his legs are in the air. Arms have to do virtually nothing...
I think Sampras? said, "Volley with your feet".

Yes! The feet are the key.

 

[atp2015]

Yes! The feet are the key.

The feet forms the foundation, good enough till certain level. Need more than a good foundation for higher level, got to punch it in when there is opportunity. Otherwise can only wave at the passing shot.

 

[mad dog1]

The feet forms the foundation, good enough till certain level. Need more than a good foundation for higher level, got to punch it in when there is opportunity. Otherwise can only wave at the passing shot.

Agreed.

 

[IowaGuy]

Yes! The feet are the key.

Feet are important, but Rafter definitely used much more than his feet...

He has more of an exaggerated follow-through on his volleys compared to many pros, especially when he has time to set up. His BH volley, for example, often finishes more out in front whereas Fed finishes more to the side...

Good examples of what I would consider "punches" at 11:30, 16:30, 17:35, 24:30, 41:45, 43:35, 49:53, etc...

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

It's fine for some situations where the ball is coming at a reasonable pace somewhere near your strike zone.

it falls apart when it's:
- too fast to even get a good unit turn in
- so low that you're scraping the court to get underneath it
- a shot you want to drop volley
- close in to your dominant hip

A good volleyer knows when to punch and when to do something else. I think many coaches say to "punch" because their feeds are a particular type that lend themselves to the punch. But I'm not sure they are elaborating later when the feeds vary or when the student wonders why he volleys so well during lessons but not during a match.

 

[J011yroger]

More info on Laver's book please.

J

 

[mad dog1]

Feet are important, but Rafter definitely used much more than his feet...

He has more of an exaggerated follow-through on his volleys compared to many pros, especially when he has time to set up. His BH volley, for example, often finishes more out in front whereas Fed finishes more to the side...

Good examples of what I would consider "punches" at 11:30, 16:30, 17:35, 24:30, 41:45, 43:35, 49:53, etc...

For most rec players <4.5, they don’t move their feet first. They move the hands/arms first and a lot never even take that all important step forward with their feet. For the 4.5 and higher players who already move their feet, that’s when the punch needs to be added to take their volley to the next level.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

More info on Laver's book please.

J

It's rectangular, has a bunch of words, written by some tennis dude with a big left forearm...why do you want to know?

 

[atp2015]

More info on Laver's book please.

J

You mean a book on Laver cup? With all due respect, why would anyone want to learn anything from Laver, other than historical stuff. 3+1 best players(3 ATP +1 wta) of all time with 4 different styles right now- feel blessed as a tennis fan.

 

[J011yroger]

You mean a book on Laver cup? With all due respect, why would anyone want to learn anything from Laver, other than historical stuff. 3+1 best players(3 ATP +1 wta) of all time with 4 different styles right now- feel blessed as a tennis fan.

I read their books already.

J

 

[J011yroger]

It's rectangular, has a bunch of words, written by some tennis dude with a big left forearm...why do you want to know?

My left forearm is lacking.

J

 

[atp2015]

My left forearm is lacking.

J

That's easy - start eating with your left hand.
One step at a time. It's called progression.

 

[J011yroger]

That's easy - start eating with your left hand.
One step at a time. It's called progression.

I do all that already. I do everything except write and play tennis left handed.

J

 

[Raul_SJ]

Hitting a good volley is like punching someone in the nose – at least that is the gospel from Rod Laver, who executed the stroke to near perfection while becoming the only player in the history of tennis to win the Grand Slam on two occasions (1962, 1969). In his updated and re-released autobiography THE EDUCATION OF A TENNIS PLAYER, Laver outlines many tennis tips to help amateurs – and pros – improve their games, including the key to hitting a crisp volley.

Laver’s full tip on hitting a crisp volley is excerpted below…

A good punch in the nose—that’s the volley. A short, stiff jab with almost no backswing. You’re blocking the ball, not stroking it.


The wrist is firm and below the racket when you punch, and you use the pace from your opponent’s shot—if it’s a good shot. Occasionally when a shot sits there weakly to be volleyed away you have to supply a little of your own power.


By keeping your eye on the ball intently and blocking it you can become a pretty good volleyer and a terror at an ordinary level. There is more to it than that as you progress. You will want to level the racket slightly so that you are hitting slightly under the ball to create a slice or underspin. This gives you more control.


Then there’s footwork, without which you can’t become a really fine volleyer. As you jab with your racket you’re also taking a jab step into the ball. A right-hander steps in with his left foot for a forehand volley and with his right foot for a backhand. This insures that you’re hitting the ball out front where a good volley must be hit. That step is going to put more impact into your punch so that the volleys will gain length and fly to the corners and the baseline. Remember: you don’t need backswing to give you depth. Meeting the ball out front with your body moving behind that jab step will do it.


To take the step you have to be side-on to the net. Not always possible in a fast match. Frequently you’ll be caught head-on to the net. Then you pivot at the hips, like a baseball catcher who has to rush a throw to second base from his haunches. “Wrong-footing” was a favorite tactic of Kenny Rosewall, and it’s a good one for the volleyer once he feels he has control of the stroke. Wrong-footing is hitting to the place your opponent has just vacated, or will vacate to cover the next logical shot. He’s gone to his left corner, say, to return your shot and then he dashes to his right to cover the wide opening. You wrong-foot him by volleying right back to that left corner, and if your timing is right he can’t change directions to go back for the ball. But if you aren’t accurate it will backfire because you may hit the ball right back at the fellow, not behind him.


http://www.worldtennismagazine.com/archives/4070

 

[atp2015]

I do all that already. I do everything except write and play tennis left handed.

J

You are a pusher, everything comes back...
I want to play with real players.

 

[J011yroger]

You are a pusher, everything comes back...
I want to play with real players.

Heck. I have become the very thing I swore to destroy.

J

 

[coupergear]

lol, if you came here hell bent on correcting me,.. welcome

I always pooh pooh’ed this tip. wtf does that mean, it looks/feels nothing like a punch, and I’ve spent quite a bit of time on the heavy bag, and boxing.

was reading lavers book, and reading his description of volleys, and he says the same thing, “punch your volley”... except he goes a bit more into the context,... basically just saying, meet the flight of ball head on (Ie don’t chop across or too steep an angle). so the flight of the ball was like a tube, and a cross section of the tube was a flat plane at contact, you want to match your volley swing to the shape of the tube, and “punch” through that flat-plane-cross-section with the strings.

anywho i found this to be an interesting find, and now validates for me that “punching the volley” makes sense as a tip (though the accompanying context is wordy!!)





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

All respects to the Rocket, but If you have to work that hard to make sense of it, including creating an entirely different analogy (tube/cross section) to justify it, it's not a good tip.

I consider myself a very strong volleyer. I've similarly tried to mentally reverse engineer this tip, to see how anyone might be helped by it...I can't.

To me, that tip has always felt like someone trying to macho up a sport oft considered overly genteel

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Laver’s full tip on hitting a crisp volley is excerpted below…

A good punch in the nose—that’s the volley.

"Every tennis player has a plan until Rod Laver punches them in the nose." - Tike Myson

 

[fuzz nation]

I'm also not wild about the general advice of "punching a volley". I think it's important to qualify that idea and note how the "punch" is much more compact or abbreviated compared with a typical full stroke. That's where the image of a punch or a jab can maybe be helpful, but maybe not.

The problem with the idea of using the racquet to "punch" the ball is that it can easily encourage a developing player to stand more directly behind the ball and push the racquet forward with the racquet arm to drive the volley. That encourages the dreaded frying pan grip on the forehand side (eastern forehand grip instead of continental) and a hot mess of who-knows-what on the backhand side. And the power for the volley is minimal.

My preferred thought is more of a "tug" than a "punch". The idea of "volley with your feet" is about using a forward weight transfer through the shot to help with driving it. So if I move forward - even diagonally forward - and tug the racquet through contact, I'm letting the racquet sort of follow my body weight. That's a very potent driving force for volleys compared with pushing the racquet with the shoulder and tricep. That's my thumbnail sketch of things, but maybe I'll offer more of a novel later on.

 

[atp2015]

My preferred thought is more of a "tug" than a "punch".

Not everyone is ready for punch volley, it's a performance/higher level technique, not a foundational/standard technique.
But "tug" (a variation of pull) is a big no no, as it promotes hitting the ball late and not out in front.
Punch promotes meeting the ball out in front with a compact, rapid action rather than elongated slap. Punch does not replace footwork, it adds to it.
A good punch involves core and foot involvement. See how he steps in sideways with karaoke step just like hitting a tennis shot.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I'm also not wild about the general advice of "punching a volley". I think it's important to qualify that idea and note how the "punch" is much more compact or abbreviated compared with a typical full stroke. That's where the image of a punch or a jab can maybe be helpful, but maybe not.

The problem with the idea of using the racquet to "punch" the ball is that it can easily encourage a developing player to stand more directly behind the ball and push the racquet forward with the racquet arm to drive the volley. That encourages the dreaded frying pan grip on the forehand side (eastern forehand grip instead of continental) and a hot mess of who-knows-what on the backhand side. And the power for the volley is minimal.

Sands advises switching to FH grip when jammed on the body volley.

 

[fuzz nation]

Not everyone is ready for punch volley, it's a performance/higher level technique, not a foundational/standard technique.
But "tug" (a variation of pull) is a big no no, as it promotes hitting the ball late and not out in front.
Punch promotes meeting the ball out in front with a compact, rapid action rather than elongated slap. Punch does not replace footwork, it adds to it.
A good punch involves a good upper body and foot involvement.

Right on - it's important to avoid an elongated slap. Uncle Chuck is performing what I'd call an elongated slap, but I'm honestly laughing every time I look at him. It's gotta be that awesome mustache!! So thanks for that.

I'd probably like the terminology better if the "punch" was replaced with maybe a "jab", but it's still not my thing.

 

[mad dog1]

Sands advises switching to FH grip when jammed on the body volley.

Great tip. I tried it and it works really well if you’re able to read the ball direction early and are able to change grip quickly enough.

 

[mad dog1]

Not everyone is ready for punch volley, it's a performance/higher level technique, not a foundational/standard technique.
But "tug" (a variation of pull) is a big no no, as it promotes hitting the ball late and not out in front.
Punch promotes meeting the ball out in front with a compact, rapid action rather than elongated slap. Punch does not replace footwork, it adds to it.

Completely agree!

Most lower level rec players simply try to punch the ball and never step forward. The volley oftentimes ends up in the net this way.

 

[atp2015]

Completely agree!

We just listen to the known experts, don't we.. it's the "high percentage play" for us to listen to full time pros than formulate our own opinion and technique.

 

[mad dog1]

We just listen to the known experts, don't we.. it's the "high percentage play" for us to listen to full time pros than formulate our own opinion and technique.

I have no idea cuz I stopped watching YouTube instruction videos or listening to anyone else except my coach because he is able to show me what he means instead of me having to interpret what someone else is trying to say.

 

[atp2015]

I have no idea cuz I stopped watching YouTube instruction videos or listening to anyone else except my coach because he is able to show me what he means instead of me having to interpret what someone else is trying to say.

Agree, what a waste. Who watches YouTube for instructions? Ttw is the best place..

 

[mad dog1]

Your coach is not a full time teaching pro?

No. He’s not a full time teaching pro anymore. Doesn’t like to deal with students that don’t listen and/or aren’t serious about improving.

 

[atp2015]

No. He’s not a full time teaching pro anymore. Doesn’t like to deal with students that don’t listen .

Smart person.. he says "pay me 200" for the class and the students don't listen and pay almost nothing.. that's why my coach quit tennis business.

 

[mad dog1]

Smart person.. he says "pay me 200" for the class and the students don't listen and pay almost nothing.. that's why my coach quit tennis business.

Yeah. He’s a smart guy but for him it was frustrating to see some students never improve because they weren’t willing to do their “homework”. They expected to improve by simply taking a 1 hr lesson once a week and playing 2 times/week. Most of the time, they weren’t physically fit enough to execute what he was trying to teach.

 

[philosoup]

Is it basically the same as the saying that you need to hit through the ball?

 

[atp2015]

Is it basically the same as the saying that you need to hit through the ball?

Correct, as apposed to just blocking/catching the ball. But you hit with compact punch not swing or slap motion.

 

[FiReFTW]

Sands advises switching to FH grip when jammed on the body volley.

My opinion is that this is hard to implement for an average tennis player, specially with faster balls or balls closer to net where you have extremely little time to react.

Most cant even manage a decent volley in such an extremely short time where you need to react so instantly, let alone make a grip change and execute a volley.

You need quite remarkable reflexes and reactions and coordination to do this against a very fast ball.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Great tip. I tried it and it works really well if you’re able to read the ball direction early and are able to change grip quickly enough.

Were these reflex volleys with both players up at net? Sands was doing the volley to volley drill at the net.Really crushing it at close range.
In certain situations, like FH body close to body, she wants rec players to switch grips on those bang bang volleys. She says it's difficult but possible with practice.

My opinion is that this is hard to implement for an average tennis player, specially with faster balls or balls closer to net where you have extremely little time to react.

Most cant even manage a decent volley in such an extremely short time where you need to react so instantly, let alone make a grip change and execute a volley.

You need quite remarkable reflexes and reactions and coordination to do this against a very fast ball.

That's what I suspect but Sands advises this. Assume she is addressing rec players.
Suppose it might be possible if you practice it specifically 10 minutes a day. Players rarely practice these reflex volleys.I

Most of the time you will be using a single grip for both sides, except for the body volley Sands refers to. One can argue if you have time to turn sideways you have time to shift grip.

 

[FiReFTW]

Were these reflex volleys with both players up at net? Sands was doing the volley to volley drill at the net.Really crushing it at close range.
In certain situations, like FH body close to body, she wants rec players to switch grips on those bang bang volleys. She says it's difficult but possible with practice.




That's what I suspect but Sands advises this. Assume she is addressing rec players.
Suppose it might be possible if you practice it specifically 10 minutes a day. Players rarely practice these reflex volleys.I

Most of the time you will be using a single grip for both sides, except for the body volley Sands refers to.

Maybe some can but those that have good reactions and coordination, most cant do this succesfuly im certain.

Most average players are barely coordinated enough to switch grips for their forehand and backhand let alone make such split second grip changes plus executing the volley all in a split second.

Im sure matek doesnt have a problem even tho she faces extremely fast balls, she has elite pro coordination and reactions.

 

[Kevo]

Punch your volleys might have been good advice at one time. Guys used to punch each other a lot more I think. I find it better to start people off with block the ball back. If I get to someone early enough in their learning, it's pretty easy to tech volleys. Blocking and then adding a step to the block is just about all you need to know. The rest is just practice with different types of shots being hit at you. If I get to someone too late, it's usually a big struggle to undo all the swinging mechanics or weird wristy stuff people tend to do when they learn in an unstructured way.

And the biggest problem I think with volleys is most people don't practice them enough to feel comfortable trying to do it in a match, so it never really makes it into their game.

One interesting things I've seen several times is some random rec player at the local courts who plays nothing but doubles and his whole game is volleys. Occasionally I'll run into a guy like that and those guys would probably have a lot of trouble playing 4.0 singles, but they could easily play 4.0 doubles because their net game is so good compared to everything else.

 

[mad dog1]

Were these reflex volleys with both players up at net? Sands was doing the volley to volley drill at the net.Really crushing it at close range.
In certain situations, like FH body close to body, she wants rec players to switch grips on those bang bang volleys. She says it's difficult but possible with practice.

That's what I suspect but Sands advises this. Assume she is addressing rec players.
Suppose it might be possible if you practice it specifically 10 minutes a day. Players rarely practice these reflex volleys.

Yes, exactly. Like everything in tennis, practice is key! But there’s a component tied to this that isn’t even related to practice. You must be strong enough to react quickly when you might need to twist/contort your upper body to execute the volley. It’s kind of like a boxer weaving and bobbing to dodge a punch. His core muscles have to be strong enough to weave and bob quickly. If they aren’t, all the practice in the world just means getting hit a lot.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

My opinion is that this is hard to implement for an average tennis player, specially with faster balls or balls closer to net where you have extremely little time to react.

Most cant even manage a decent volley in such an extremely short time where you need to react so instantly, let alone make a grip change and execute a volley.

You need quite remarkable reflexes and reactions and coordination to do this against a very fast ball.

This was discussed in a previous thread:

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...ng-with-continental-grip.637484/post-13128817

I'd guess on a reflex volley one wouldn't have the time.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Maybe some can but those that have good reactions and coordination, most cant do this succesfuly im certain.

Most average players are barely coordinated enough to switch grips for their forehand and backhand let alone make such split second grip changes plus executing the volley all in a split second.

Im sure matek doesnt have a problem even tho she faces extremely fast balls, she has elite pro coordination and reactions.

3.0 Most will switch grips on volley and it is commonly taught that way... Very workable at this level as pace is generally slower. I see many players with pretty decent reflexes as they switch grips on fast volley exchanges.

4.0 Players will try to progress to continental grip for all volleys. Many will struggle with trying to break the habit of switching grips...

4.5 Ironically, the next step, according to Sands, in certain cases, is to revert back to the old habit of switching grips. Example is being jammed on the forehand side. Sands says it will be difficult to handle with the Continental. Switch to FH grip.

That's what she advised Chris from TW to practice. Chris is a 4.5 player.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

3.0 Most will switch grips on volley and it is commonly taught that way... Very workable at this level as pace is generally slower. I see many players with pretty decent reflexes as they switch grips on fast volley exchanges.

4.0 Players will try to progress to continental grip for all volleys. Many will struggle with trying to break the habit of switching grips...

4.5 Ironically, the next step, according to Sands, in certain cases, is to revert back to the old habit of switching grips. Example is being jammed on the forehand side. Sands says it will be difficult to handle with the Continental. Switch to FH grip.

That's what she advised Chris from TW to practice. Chris is a 4.5 player.

Her advice didn't appear to be based on Chris' level; it was that bio-mechanically that particular FH volley is difficult to hit for anyone.

"You would think that [keeping the same grip] is pretty efficient but for those tight FH body volleys, you'll never get it [your racquet] into the right place."

 

[user92626]

Everyone,

What challenges in the volley do you think make it hard for recreational players to learn?

I see so many players at my court that have played for 5, 10 years or more but still cannot volley.

I tried to encourage a couple close friends that they should not wait many years to learn the volley, like I did. Gotta learn now to enjoy doubles.

Btw, as soon as I decided to pick up this volley skill 2, 3 years ago, I have learned it enough to be very comfortable at the net. It's very enjoyable, but I can't convey my learning process to fellow players. They're not excited or ready to learn.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Her advice didn't appear to be based on Chris' level; it was that bio-mechanically that particular FH volley is difficult to hit for anyone.

"You would think that [keeping the same grip] is pretty efficient but for those tight FH body volleys, you'll never get it [your racquet] into the right place."

True... If I could control my volley, that would be a great place to aim for. Close to the body on opponents Forehand side.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Everyone,

What challenges in the volley do you think make it hard for recreational players to learn?

- Thinking that they have to hit a winner no matter how difficult the volley ["because I'm at net: I'm supposed to finish the point!"]
- Doing too much [hingeing the racquet way back, using an insane amount of backspin, trying to bounce the ball over the side curtain, trying to hit the perfect volley rather than a good one, etc]
- Not using their feet
- Relying more on the smaller parts of their body [wrist and elbow] rather than the larger ones [legs, core, shoulder]
- Switching grips [Mattek-Sands' example notwithstanding]
- No split step
- Trying to punch every volley regardless of position
- Worrying about getting passed, which leads to tension, which leads to gripping the racquet too tightly, which kills touch
- Worrying about the lob so they stand on the SL and have to dig volleys out of their shoelaces frequently
- Fear of getting hit