push pull when to use each

dunc88

New User
I know this isn't everyone's favorite topic...
Ive been watching videos of del potro lately and to me it looks like he uses both 'push' strokes and 'pull strokes' depending on the situation.
Specifcally, his rally ball is more of a push stroke while he'll use a pull stroke to put away short balls. Does this seem accurate?
makes me think that maybe this is the 'best' way to play tennis
so in my head im trying to match the stroke (push or pull) to the type of ball.
I have:
high ball (whether it's deep or short): push stroke
short, low ball: pull stroke
skidding, slice ball: pull stroke
lob: pull stroke (unless you're just trying to chip it over opponent's head)
and in general:
flat ball: push stroke
heavy topspin ball: pull stroke

is this a viable approach to tennis?
 

SFrazeur

Legend
There is no such thing as push and pull. It's the product of over analyzing.
But you are very perceptive. Del Potro's game blurs the lines between traditional and modern technique.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=5080710&postcount=16



I would disagree there. There is such a thing as Push and Pull strokes.
However, amongst pro players, pushing strokes do not exist.

Pulling: The uncoiling of the body first then followed by the arm and racquet.
Pushing: The extension of the arm and racquet prior to and/or lacking coiling/uncoiling.

You can also think of "pulling" as the circular, lose throw motion of throwing of a ball. In contrast, "pushing" would be like trying to throw a ball with the arms already extended.

-SF
 

GuyClinch

Legend
I didn't really believe in push/pull either until I saw a video on this web site called virtual tennis academy. The pro there explains it very well - and its really clear after watching his ideas about how to hit it which pros do and don't hit push or pull shots.

I don't mean for this to be some advertisement for that site - I am just saying its real and its easy enough to see. The rub is that overall its not a HUGE difference in strokes and you can hit very effective push shots at the rec level.

I have noticed on this forum that "push" is equated with bad and that's just not true. Some pros like Hewitt hit push shots and its still a pretty nice forehand.

I don't think it should really be a focus of your technique unless you have a 4.0 or better forehand to begin with..
 

Sreeram

Professional
I guess you guys are confused with block shot that the pros play. Example Murray blocks many service returns. This is used when the ball comes fast at them and they do not have enough time to setup for a stroke. There is no hard and fast rule for it.
When u block a ball, u use the incoming pace to return it back. Further one can use the racquet face to adjust the length of block shot.
 

Dreamer

Professional
I would disagree there. There is such a thing as Push and Pull strokes.
However, amongst pro players, pushing strokes do not exist.

Pulling: The uncoiling of the body first then followed by the arm and racquet.
Pushing: The extension of the arm and racquet prior to and/or lacking coiling/uncoiling.


You can also think of "pulling" as the circular, lose throw motion of throwing of a ball. In contrast, "pushing" would be like trying to throw a ball with the arms already extended.

-SF

Modern forehand: The uncoiling of the body first then followed by the arm and racquet.
Traditional Forehand: The extension of the arm and racquet prior to and/or lacking coiling/uncoiling.
Wow so you pretty much described Traditional and Modern forehand congrats.

Except mine would cover everything from the ground up, while yours confuses the hell out of people because all strokes consist of push and pull. Funny how that works. Why do we call these different things please explain.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
I used to think the same way. In short - all strokes have push and pull aspects - sure. But the push/pull difference isn't about one guy pushing and another guy pulling. It's actually poorly named..

I am sure someone will chime in with a very technical explanation like Tricky - if that's what your looking for but its all been covered before.

It's easiest to see in the wrist - IMHO. A modern pull forehand the wrist goes from neutral to laid back to more neutral again.

There are drills you can do to practice this action - but the key is you don't start with your wrist rigidly laid back and hold it that way - or do the same with a neutral wrist position. (try it out - get to your prepared to hit position with your wrist neutral or fully laid back).

Fed - Pull
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVZVQMsb1AY&feature=related

Those are push forehands..

Hewitt - Push
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf3FJY175Z0

It's pretty subtle - and I was with you and thought there was no difference really for a long time - but its there.

Basically with the pull forehand your letting your wrist whip kind of like a towel when you snap it - but with a push forehand you are not getting that extra power..

This is also why guys who point there racquet a bit forward tend to have pull forehands (as that's what the racquet will look like if your wrist is more neutral) but guys with push forehands will point the racquet straight to the sky...

Again in my view too much is made of this - people act like they are completely different strokes when in fact most of the fundamentals are the same - the coil - the role of the opposite arm etc etc. It's just the pull guys have learned a way to get a little extra pop with careful relaxation of the wrist, IMHO.
 
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split-step

Professional
I would bet my house that if you asked Federer what a pull forehand was he would be :confused: Same with Hewitt.

I'm 100% with dreamer on this. These terms only serve to confuse. You do not need to know what a pull forehand or push forehand is to hit a good forehand.
 

SFrazeur

Legend
Modern forehand: The uncoiling of the body first then followed by the arm and racquet.
Traditional Forehand: The extension of the arm and racquet prior to and/or lacking coiling/uncoiling.
Wow so you pretty much described Traditional and Modern forehand congrats.

Except mine would cover everything from the ground up, while yours confuses the hell out of people because all strokes consist of push and pull. Funny how that works. Why do we call these different things please explain.

Wow you're an arrogant little guy aren't ya. I gave a simplified example. If it's not good enough for you then say so and give a better one. You're not being particularly constructive.

-SF
 

SFrazeur

Legend
I would bet my house that if you asked Federer what a pull forehand was he would be :confused: Same with Hewitt.

Absolutely agree with you there. For the most part, discussions over "push and pull" are largely academic. People learning should not be studying theory and academic arguments. They should be taking lessons from a pro, taking clinics, or studying sites like FuzzyYellowBalls.com. And oh, yeah. . playing a lot. Lest we forget.

-SF
 

Dreamer

Professional
Wow you're an arrogant little guy aren't ya. I gave a simplified example. If it's not good enough for you then say so and give a better one. You're not being particularly constructive.

-SF

Alright, I was a bit sarcastic. I am just so exhausted by this push/pull concept, but I apologize if I did offend you.

Okay my problem with push/pull is the failure of the proponents to clearly define exactly what push and pull is because every correct stroke is both push and pull. And I feel real examples don't fall neatly in a push or pull pile.

Also I don't believe these ideas in anyway really help tennis players get any better. There are better/clearer ways to explain and teach good technique.
 

dunc88

New User
^you defintiely have a bit of an attitude. "at the end of the day who cares" um i care that's why I'm asking. no one is forcing you to participate in these threads...

anyway, im still very confused. tricky says one thing, dreamer says another...tbh dont know who to believe
 

Dreamer

Professional
^you defintiely have a bit of an attitude. "at the end of the day who cares" um i care that's why I'm asking. no one is forcing you to participate in these threads...

anyway, im still very confused. tricky says one thing, dreamer says another...tbh dont know who to believe

Are you guys trying to guilt trip me? because I'm starting to feel bad.

Anyway I posted those videos because it shows a variety of pros performing very similar forehands with Hewitt. I said who cares because I was hoping everyone else sees what I see, that the forehands are so similar and that push/pull really falls short in properly describing the difference.

I really doubt these players strike the way they do because a coach is telling them to push/pull it. I wouldn't worry about push/pull until it goes beyond guesswork in trying to identify certain strokes and transitions in to giving applicable and effective stroke instruction.
 

BevelDevil

Hall of Fame
I would disagree there. There is such a thing as Push and Pull strokes.
However, amongst pro players, pushing strokes do not exist.

Pulling: The uncoiling of the body first then followed by the arm and racquet.
Pushing: The extension of the arm and racquet prior to and/or lacking coiling/uncoiling.

I'm not sure if that's the "official" definition, but I don't like it since it fails to distinguish different types of strokes that, in my view, blend pulling and pushing.

Most players will start by pulling the racket, but will then continue accelerating it by pushing.

Whereas Fed and Nadal seem to pull throughout the stroke and rely on the racket's momentum to get it flush with the ball.

BTW, Agassi had a push forehand.



I don't think it should really be a focus of your technique unless you have a 4.0 or better forehand to begin with..

I think every player should know whether their stroke is a pull, push or some combination of those. This will allow him to compare his strokes with others and have a better understanding of any emulation he may be considering.




I would bet my house that if you asked Federer what a pull forehand was he would be :confused: Same with Hewitt.

I bet he wouldn't be confused if you asked him whether his arm or his body initiated the stroke.


You do not need to know what a pull forehand or push forehand is to hit a good forehand.

It would probably help. Especially when it comes to copying players.

Sampras uses an Eastern, and so does Federer (according to conventional wisdom). However, it would be a big mistake to try to copy both of them since Sampras uses a pure push and Fed uses a pure pull. You would get very confused trying to learn from both.



Okay my problem with push/pull is the failure of the proponents to clearly define exactly what push and pull is because every correct stroke is both push and pull. And I feel real examples don't fall neatly in a push or pull pile.

I agree with your criticism.

I also agree that most strokes are combinations of pull-then-push.

However, there are pure pushes (Sampras, Agassi) and pure pulls (Fed, Nadal). However, these are exceptions in the current tour.

I would define push and pull based on the source of racket acceleration, and how pressure is applied on the handle of the racket. Literally, I would ask: During acceleration, when are they pulling the handle and when are they pushing a few of the bevels on one side of the racket.


Based on this definition, someone can pull his racket (drag it) using his arm before uncoiling, thus contradicting the definition of "pull" given above. I would still consider this a type of pull swing.
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
I would disagree there. There is such a thing as Push and Pull strokes.
However, amongst pro players, pushing strokes do not exist.

Pulling: The uncoiling of the body first then followed by the arm and racquet.
Pushing: The extension of the arm and racquet prior to and/or lacking coiling/uncoiling.

You can also think of "pulling" as the circular, lose throw motion of throwing of a ball. In contrast, "pushing" would be like trying to throw a ball with the arms already extended.

-SF



The big difference is seen and understood when you realize that a Pull is offensive while a push is deffensive.
 

jdawgg

Semi-Pro
push -- use this when you dont like someone or to remove them from your path of travel. GET THE F!@# OUT OF MY WAY GUY.

pull -- use this in tug of war.
 

split-step

Professional
makes me think that maybe this is the 'best' way to play tennis
so in my head im trying to match the stroke (push or pull) to the type of ball.
I have:
high ball (whether it's deep or short): push stroke
short, low ball: pull stroke
skidding, slice ball: pull stroke
lob: pull stroke (unless you're just trying to chip it over opponent's head)
and in general:
flat ball: push stroke
heavy topspin ball: pull stroke

is this a viable approach to tennis?

No.
It is overly complicated and wholly unnecessary.
 

GuyClinch

Legend
I agree. I think I understand the differences now but I don't think you go thinking about switching styles from ball to ball. I doubt the pros do that.

Even guys that have "14 different" forehands aren't thinking about switching styles - it happens automatically IMHO. Let me flatten this out - you might think - and your swing just happens..
 

spun_out

Semi-Pro
I for one think that the pull/push comparison, especially by tricky, has helped me tremendously in improving my forehand, and I can relate to what the OP is asking, I think.

Before adopting the pull stroke, my best shot was high forehands that I can rip flat from anywhere in the court with pretty good accuracy. After adopting the pull stroke, this shot started to give me problems. I was basically late on it.

What I did before adopting the pull stroke on these shots was I would lay the wrist back as soon as I saw the high ball, and using my body's forward momentum, I would just hit through the shot with no wrist movement. If I hit this shot with a pull stroke, at least the way I do it, then the wrist would not be laid back at the beginning of the swing so the wrist would have to lay back from the momentum of my shoulder rotating. The result was that my shots would have major spin but be late (so less accurate) and have less pop. I remedied this by making sure that I don't have my wrist too far away in angle from the laid back position (as compared to regular shots) as I prepare for the shot.

In general, it helped me to think of push and pull as a continuous spectrum with two extreme poles only existing in theory.

Not sure this helps, but I for one definitely feel the difference between a pull and a push stroke.
 

JediMindTrick

Hall of Fame
It's easiest to see in the wrist - IMHO. A modern pull forehand the wrist goes from neutral to laid back to more neutral again.

...

Basically with the pull forehand your letting your wrist whip kind of like a towel when you snap it - but with a push forehand you are not getting that extra power.

By this definition, you could say:
straight arm forehand = pull forehand
double bend forehand = push forehand

So all ATP pros except Federer, Nadal and Ferdasco have a push forehand. But then why don't you just call them straight arm and double bend forehand?
 
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