Pushers follow same winning principle as anyone including pros!

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Yes perception may be different than reality. But that's related to inherent confirmation bias of players and has nothing to do with determining what is an unforced error.

I would suspect if you watched a pro match and counted unforced errors, your result would come back very similar to the statisticians count. You might disagree on the odd error but that's fine because it's really a continuous variable as opposed to a discrete variable. There will be a grey zone where it's tough to tell at times. Just as a statistician might miss a slight tick off the racket and count a forced error as a winner.

I don't think it's very hard for me to know when I'm set up to make a shot and I don't think it's very hard for an observer to note the same thing. That's all I'm saying.
So how would distinguishing force errors from unforced errors help your games?

I know that on a same (or similar) ball I'd likely commit an error when facing a better player than when facing a worse player. Meaning, the level of my opponent has "a say" in my error.

Pick an error that @Curious made in his video which you think is an UE, do you think curious would make the same error if his opponent were some elder guy 2 levels below him? I doubt that.
 

Curious

Legend
So how would distinguishing force errors from unforced errors help your games?

I know that on a same (or similar) ball I'd likely commit an error when facing a better player than when facing a worse player. Meaning, the level of my opponent has "a say" in my error.

Pick an error that @Curious made in his video which you think is an UE, do you think curious would make the same error if his opponent were some elder guy 2 levels below him? I doubt that.
I think unforced error is unforced error. Why you make it is another topic. Many factors may be involved there like your opponent, your mental state etc. Federer hits 100 second serves and for some reason 3 of them go out or in the net. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's just how it is.
 
So how would distinguishing force errors from unforced errors help your games?

I know that on a same (or similar) ball I'd likely commit an error when facing a better player than when facing a worse player. Meaning, the level of my opponent has "a say" in my error.

Pick an error that @Curious made in his video which you think is an UE, do you think curious would make the same error if his opponent were some elder guy 2 levels below him? I doubt that.
When I do stats on my match these days, I don't distinguish between the two. For one, it's less work. It may skew things a bit against me [I didn't play THAT bad] but I can handle that.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
When I do stats on my match these days, I don't distinguish between the two. For one, it's less work. It may skew things a bit against me [I didn't play THAT bad] but I can handle that.
That's what i've been saying to these guys, curious and dart.

It gives me very little useful info to know ue's from forced errors. The line is very blurred.
 
That's what i've been saying to these guys, curious and dart.

It gives me very little useful info to know ue's from forced errors. The line is very blurred.
I suppose it would be nice to distinguish dumping a bunch of sitters into the net vs stretching out wide and barely getting a racquet on it.

But in the aggregate, the error stat [both absolute and relative to winners] tells me what I need to know: I'm making too many errors [since I don't hit that many winners].
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I think unforced error is unforced error. Why you make it is another topic. Many factors may be involved there like your opponent, your mental state etc. Federer hits 100 second serves and for some reason 3 of them go out or in the net. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's just how it is.
Why you make it, your mental state, many factors involved is the reason that makes UEs very hard to determined. In fact it is so far and sometimes convoluted that categorizing UEs and whatnot is that helpful at all.

I suppose it would be nice to distinguish dumping a bunch of sitters into the net vs stretching out wide and barely getting a racquet on it.

But in the aggregate, the error stat [both absolute and relative to winners] tells me what I need to know: I'm making too many errors [since I don't hit that many winners].
It's maybe nice to be able to tell a few obvious UEs and whatnot, but like I said above to curious categorizing them in a meaningful and complete way is difficult due to so many variables.

In the end all you get is just some anecdotes. Not really meaningful .
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Why you make it, your mental state, many factors involved is the reason that makes UEs very hard to determined. In fact it is so far and sometimes convoluted that categorizing UEs and whatnot is that helpful at all.
Don't take this as encouragement on your current UE ponderings 8-B ... but there is such a thing as "fragile mental state" based on history with a player. I played tons of matches with a good friend ... we were very close in ability. We would be in the middle of a tight match ... I would get my first net cord winner ... and from that point on he became a grumbling UEfest. It wasn't that net cord that broke his mind ... it was the 100s I had hit before against him in previous matches. In his defense ... some of those previous net cord winners/droppers happened on very crucial points. 8-B What can I say ... flattish low ball hitters tend to hit more net cords.
 

Curious

Legend
Why you make it, your mental state, many factors involved is the reason that makes UEs very hard to determined. In fact it is so far and sometimes convoluted that categorizing UEs and whatnot is that helpful at all.



It's maybe nice to be able to tell a few obvious UEs and whatnot, but like I said above to curious categorizing them in a meaningful and complete way is difficult due to so many variables.

In the end all you get is just some anecdotes. Not really meaningful .
Deny it as much as you you want. There’s such a thing as unforced error and it’s crucial to understand it fully if you want to play smart tennis. Hope you don’t deny smart tennis!
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Deny it as much as you you want. There’s such a thing as unforced error and it’s crucial to understand it fully if you want to play smart tennis. Hope you don’t deny smart tennis!
You didn't answer my question earlier. How would distinguishing force errors from unforced errors help your games?

At the end of a match all you get is a few of anecdotal UEs and oftentimes if you look hard into them they would have had some good reasons to be errors.

So basically meaningless.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
Don't take this as encouragement on your current UE ponderings 8-B ... but there is such a thing as "fragile mental state" based on history with a player.
That's why it's dang hard to categorize an error happen unforced!

And what the heck is an UE? Is it an error that you happen to hit into the net or out of bound completely absent of any affecting variables? There's no such moment in a tennis match where there's absent of any affecting variables.
 

Curious

Legend
You didn't answer my question earlier. How would distinguishing force errors from unforced errors help your games?
It reinforces my awareness of the meaning of every ball I receive. I mentioned earlier but you dismissed it. Every ball has one of three meanings
• ball to attack
• ball to defend
• ball to stay neutral
It tames and calms your mind. Otherwise I would keep hitting hundreds of unforced errors like you and trying to convince myself that I’m putting pressure on my opponent!:-D
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
That's why it's dang hard to categorize an error happen unforced!

And what the heck is an UE? Is it an error that you happen to hit into the net or out of bound completely absent of any affecting variables? There's no such moment in a tennis match where there's absent of any affecting variables.
I don't know it for a fact that you beat yourself ... I just know it is true. 8-B
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
It reinforces my awareness of the meaning of every ball I receive. I mentioned earlier but you dismissed it. Every ball has one of three meanings
• ball to attack
• ball to defend
• ball to stay neutral
It tames and calms your mind. Otherwise I would keep hitting hundreds of unforced errors like you and trying to convince myself that I’m putting pressure on my opponent!:-D
What do these 3 meanings have to do with unforced errors?

You could make an error with any one of them.

When you make an error, you could erroneously think it is unforced? It's got nothing to do with your opponent?
 

Bender

G.O.A.T.
I don't know who brought Anselm back from the dead to debate public park recreation tennis, but I don't buy this circular ontological argument / hypothesis that because pushers are better than their victims by definition, and being advanced in stroke production is better than not being more advanced in stroke production, then they must necessarily be more advanced in stroke production than their victims are.

Parallels to the B4 making the NextGen do all the running is not a proper comparison as pushers do not really exist beyond say, 4.0.

People should not conflate reducing UEs with necessarily having technically-sound or more advanced strokes either. These are very separate concepts that can and will be related in certain contexts, but not always.

Categorising error types is absolutely beneficial. There's reductionism and then there's lumping forced and unforced errors together. That's like saying homicide and suicide are the same thing because either way the same person is dead.
 
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ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
I don't know who brought Anselm back from the dead to debate public park recreation tennis, but I don't buy this circular ontological argument / hypothesis that because pushers are better than their victims by definition, and being advanced in stroke production is better than not being more advanced in stroke production, then they must necessarily be more advanced in stroke production than their victims are.

Parallels to the B4 making the NextGen do all the running is not a proper comparison as pushers do not really exist beyond say, 4.0.

People should not conflate reducing UEs with necessarily having technically-sound or more advanced strokes either. These are very separate concepts that can and will be related in certain contexts, but not always.

Categorising error types is absolutely beneficial. There's reductionism and then there's lumping forced and unforced errors together. That's like saying homicide and suicide are the same thing because either way the same person is dead.
Anselm? :rolleyes:

You mean this guy? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anselm_of_Canterbury

Are we going to exile userxxxxx? Sounds fun ... can we have a ceremony? If we need a sacrifice ... we could print out the absorb thread and burn it.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
If you treat 2 and 3 as 1 you’ll have plenty of UF errors. That’s about it.
You're correct in saying that's about it (if you go astray and dumb it down that much).

The devil and my point is in categorizing what's what. That's where the difficulty is and the uncertainty of benefit is.
 

Curious

Legend
You're correct in saying that's about it (if you go astray and dumb it down that much).

The devil and my point is in categorizing what's what. That's where the difficulty is and the uncertainty of benefit is.
You don’t get it without a video, do you?8-B
Wait until the restrictions are lifted and I’ll post a new match video and you decide whether my interpretation of unforced errors/smart play is working or not. You saw my previous match videos, it will be easy to make a comparison.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Oh gosh, I hate to have you as a villager in the old Salem world. You'd be the first, typical guy with a pitch fork to any witch hunts. Hehe...
I would not have been a typical pitchforker ... I would be wearing a "witch lives matter" shirt while carrying a pitchfork.

I have a lot of tools ... rakes, shovels, axe, sledgehammer ... I should add a pitchfork.

fyi ... I don't really want to exile you ... I just want a ceremony.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
You don’t get it without a video, do you?8-B
Wait until the restrictions are lifted and I’ll post a new match video and you decide whether my interpretation of unforced errors/smart play is working or not. You saw my previous match videos, it will be easy to make a comparison.
Scared me when you said "video" ... thankfully you meant tennis video. Yeah ... heard Melbourne was going through that thing we can't talk about ... hope things get better soon.
 

Curious

Legend
Scared me when you said "video" ... thankfully you meant tennis video. Yeah ... heard Melbourne was going through that thing we can't talk about ... hope things get better soon.
Yes, 2 weeks left from a pretty strict 6 week lockdown. The only good thing about it was my knees have improved a lot with rehab in the meantime.
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
Yes, 2 weeks left from a pretty strict 6 week lockdown. The only good thing about it was my knees have improved a lot with rehab in the meantime.
I thought of you immediately right after I read that. I like that about this place ... crazy tennis internet friends from other countries. 8-B I would love to discuss what we are all up against ... but rules are rules.

I have no idea how my knees survived 40+ years of tennis ... particularly given my style which required a lot of miles on a hard court. I think one thing that probably saved them was by the time I was a "too heavy club member" around 40ish ... I played more doubles than singles. I never had knee issues/pain ... just recently noticed if I squat and bend my right knee forward way past foot ... I feel a sharp pain. Nothing when I stay in normal rage of motion. Maybe that is a sign padding has been diminished ... and I would run into trouble if I was still playing a lot of hours.
 

Curious

Legend
I thought of you immediately right after I read that. I like that about this place ... crazy tennis internet friends from other countries. 8-B I would love to discuss what we are all up against ... but rules are rules.

I have no idea how my knees survived 40+ years of tennis ... particularly given my style which required a lot of miles on a hard court. I think one thing that probably saved them was by the time I was a "too heavy club member" around 40ish ... I played more doubles than singles. I never had knee issues/pain ... just recently noticed if I squat and bend my right knee forward way past foot ... I feel a sharp pain. Nothing when I stay in normal rage of motion. Maybe that is a sign padding has been diminished ... and I would run into trouble if I was still playing a lot of hours.
That sounds similar to mine.
Pain in front of the knee? Is it tender on the lower edge of knee cap?
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
BBP and Curious


My knees aren't exactly spring chicken either. I have wear a brace with two sticks on the sides so I won't plunge and roll along in a hard run, ie no brake!
 

ByeByePoly

G.O.A.T.
BBP and Curious


My knees aren't exactly spring chicken either. I have wear a brace with two sticks on the sides so I won't plunge and roll along in a hard run, ie no brake!
Yeah ... my buddy had one of those high tech braces ... sucker ran faster with it. 8-B My knees are fine ... the squat I am talking about was more bend than I ever would do on a tennis court. I did take it as a warning, however. I was lucky ... never did any leg work other than playing tennis.
 
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