I don't get why people dislike the slow ball down the middle, it is the most statisfying ball to attack because you have all day to line up your shot and it is all on you. Nothing better than blasting one of those into a corner and if it comes back, great. You get to have another go.
Pushers - what do they get out of the game?
- Thread starter JCF
- Start date
I don't get why people dislike the slow ball down the middle, it is the most statisfying ball to attack because you have all day to line up your shot and it is all on you. Nothing better than blasting one of those into a corner and if it comes back, great. You get to have another go.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
Because if I miss it, my A list of excuses don't work [ie the ball was moving too fast, I had to move too far, etc]. And "it's all on me".
Now I'm left with the B list:
- It wasn't in the right space
- It was too slow
- It didn't have enough TS
- I didn't have to move enough
Jake Speeed
Professional
I must admit, I've used "pusher" techniques plenty of time, especially to beat "hot shots."
"Junk" also works well if you know when and how to use it. I did say I made sure my students had pusher and junk techniques in their arsenal of shot making.
"Junk" also works well if you know when and how to use it. I did say I made sure my students had pusher and junk techniques in their arsenal of shot making.
Fintft
G.O.A.T.
Agreed but we are club level/amateurs players...
Speaking from my own experiences having taken up tennis later in life, here is the difficult part for most rec players who have not gone through a proper process of moving up the ladder:
Coming from racquetball that I used to play at a solid level, pace is something I can handle. Fitness is also excellent for my age. When I play tennis players who are better, but hit with pace and spin, I will definitely lose but my shots are cleaner because their shots allow me to use their pace and bounce.
Then, when I used to play players who didnt give me that pace or true bounce, I struggled because generating your own pace or negotiating junk bounce is a ritual most kids and good adult rec players have gone through by playing many matches, enduring long practices, and putting sweat equity in. People like me had skipped that step.
So the first thought that comes to a lot of players like me is to downgrade that player who is hitting those slow shots than accepting that he is revealing huge holes in your games and accepting that if he is beating you consistently then he is better than you. I had to learn how to dial it down a bit and not give these folks cheap points. It takes time though. It is a matter of patience and better technique. Maybe it came easier for you, but generating your own pace requires good technique. As Jolly says often, you can easily spot the guys who don’t take mini tennis seriously.
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davced1
Hall of Fame
He is not by definition a better player than you just because he won on that day. Let's say you play a group league of 6 people. You lose to the pusher and beat everybody else and the pusher beat you but lost to everybody else. That makes you the better player because tennis is about how well you do against the field not h2h. More people need to understand this before they post such things as "he beat you so he is the better player" which of course is not always the case.
In the case of Sampras having a losing record to Brugera or some weird anamoly of a great player having a losing record against a specific lower ranked player, you are correct.
In the case of your average tt poster who by his own words got ***** angry because the other guy returned everything thrown at him and comes on the inter web to vent how could that guy possibly be having fun, it is a safe bet that the winner is the better player.
Many people answered correctly. Why do you assume that playing smart, defensive tennis is not fun for someone?
Also unless you have video evidence, take even the ugly tennis with a grain of salt. As per low level rec players, anyone who hits slower than them and plays smart, won by playing boring, ugly tennis.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
"He didn't beat me. I beat myself. He's nothing but a [pawn] pusher! If he played 'real' chess, my King's Gambit Morphy Deferred Queenside Fiachetto would have crushed him!"
Predominantly how to beat a pusher or improve your technique is what I read. To me, what gives happiness to different people is a psychological question. What makes people to enter a survival mode than hunting mode is another mental/psychological question. Football would be a different game if the defending team gets 6 points after every failed 3rd down conversion.
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There were quite a few responses, including from me that who is anyone to judge that their opponent cannot be having fun.
Yes it is a psychological answer because it is a psychological question that assumes that a style that is not fun for you cannot be fun for anyone else. That assumption is absurd.
Also a lot of college and high school football teams are run heavy and play a defensive style combined with that safe, boring offense. Are the players on those teams not having fun?
I’m a 5.0 player and have been called a pusher by players I’ve beaten because it makes them feel better to say that. One guy I beat fairly recently called me a pusher after I beat him and I’ve probably played 50 sets with him since and won every one. So what does that make him? A guy who’s not a ‘pusher’ but not nearly as good of a player. I’m sure David Ferrer has been called a pusher. There’s a psychological element to it. I run after every ball because while I might not get to some when the guy comes to net for an easy put away he’ll be thinking about it and miss. Guys I play with know I’m more fit so they’ll start thinking about their fitness after a couple long games at the beginning of the set and start going for more winners. Now discussions about pushing can be vague on what that actually means but I think conceptually It’s similar.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
I've been called a pusher as well. Doesn't bother me in the least.
This is what I was saying before. Sometimes there are some guys that really dump pace off the ball - hit with unorthodox strokes and hit super safe shots till you mess up. But guys like that who actually win are INCREDIBLY rare. Why? Its hard to win like that. You need athleticism, moxie and fitness.
Most of the guys that are called "pushers' are guys that beat someone - have about the same ball striking skills - but maybe play higher percentage tennis or run more balls down. These guys are dime a dozen all through the tennis levels - and get called pushers by people they have beaten. But ask an observer and they likely don't see one guy as a pusher. They are just two about evenly skilled tennis players.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
Or you might get kicked off the courts for time.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
It's not people disliking slow balls.
It's all about people losing.
Do you ever see winners complain bitterly that they won a match from attacking too many easy balls? No.
They would probably only feel they have played very well. They rule the match. Not the opponent giving them easy shots or allowing them to win.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Or you can play a level or two down, which is really your own level if you get beaten soundly by a pusher that's seemly your level.
When I play people well below my level (and there's alot at my court), my tennis tends to look like I push. Their shots cannot hurt me, and I just have to put my shots here and there and win. That's the nature of playing down. Maybe pushers are those doing just that.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
If the pusher beats you, it means you didn't do enough to make him stop pushing. You didn't get him to the net. You didn't get him uncomfortable enough to put up short balls for you to finish. You didn't finish the one's he did give you.
I play pushers on occasion and I tend to run them corner to corner waiting until I see a truly attackable ball. Eventually one shows up. It may take a while but everyone in my age group gets tired eventually and loses their precision. If my shots don't get that short ball, they are better than me.
I play pushers on occasion and I tend to run them corner to corner waiting until I see a truly attackable ball. Eventually one shows up. It may take a while but everyone in my age group gets tired eventually and loses their precision. If my shots don't get that short ball, they are better than me.
Ronaldo
Bionic Poster
Clay lover
Legend
This is almost philosophical. One could be a scientist or even a street cleaner and they'd be contributing much more to themselves and the world. Why do people work as property agents? Financial planners? What do they gain from their jobs?
Isn't the answer obvious?
Isn't the answer obvious?
Blitzball
Professional
Ehh ignore the haters.
And one last thought on pushers: I think a lot of them are afraid of losing, so they resort to the only playstyle they know. This is also why they aren't willing to make an investment in their game. They're not willing to attack short balls and miss them for a while with the right technique and aggression. Anyway, I digress. Good luck in your tennis!
Pushers are not all sadists - this is silly. Most of the time they just play safe tennis. If you like tennis - safe tennis is fun too.
We could argue the opposite - all the people that hate pushers don't really have fun and don't like tennis. They like dominating people with mean winners - ending points quickly and sucking the joy out of life with violent shots. Whereas the kind pusher always plays cooperatively - extending points and allowing more shots. They get frustrated when they miss - which is admirable as they enjoy doing their best to extend the points.
Pushers aren't sadists they are joyful people.
We could argue the opposite - all the people that hate pushers don't really have fun and don't like tennis. They like dominating people with mean winners - ending points quickly and sucking the joy out of life with violent shots. Whereas the kind pusher always plays cooperatively - extending points and allowing more shots. They get frustrated when they miss - which is admirable as they enjoy doing their best to extend the points.
Pushers aren't sadists they are joyful people.
JCF
Semi-Pro
Very interesting ....
JCF
Semi-Pro
I mean, sometimes when I'm nervous I will do the same, just slice the ball back .. but after a few games when I'm warmed up I will go for it a bit more, but thats just me ...
Interesting, I looked up on my records my results v that pusher I used to play about 10 years ago (when I was childless and had a lot more time
) ... he beat me twice ... then I beat him barely ... like 6/4 7/6 ...Then I played him a few more times and results were 6/2 6/0 type results ... but my comments were "awful awful terrible games .... "
JCF
Semi-Pro
In my book it's not possible to be 5.0 and a pusher ....
D
Deleted member 771407
Guest
Or maybe you are one of those people who can't generate pace on their own and are very good at redirecting and adding pace to an already fast ball. So you don't realize that you are pushing most of the time (counter punching), ony when the opponent doesn't have pace ? Not saying it's the case, but it can happen.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
How exactly are most of the guys complaining about pushers investing in their game more than the ‘pushers’ they lose to? If they cannot beat a pusher, it means they cannot attack slow-pace balls, moonballs, balls in the middle of the court, attack slow serves, stop making errors on the run, stop making errors on overheads, don’t have any shot tolerance on easy balls etc. So, they have many holes in their technique and footwork - in fact, way more than their opponent.
So, are these ball-bashers investing in more coaching lessons to get better technique? Do you see them doing a lot of focused drills with better players to improve their technique or shot-tolerance? Do they buy books or watch videos to improve their mental toughness and strategy? I would say that the answer is no in most cases and they just show up and play matches with their friends just like the pusher does. They somehow seem to think that if they keep trying to hit the ball harder with improper technique and crappy footwork, they will somehow improve faster than the pusher and that they are somehow playing ‘real tennis’ while the other guy is not. More than 95% of rec players don’t make any real investment in time or money to actually improve their game and just show up and hit with their friends with no real purpose or play matches.
The truth is that the average bystander watching a low-level match between a ‘pusher’ and a non-pusher probably will consider both of them as crappy players and they would be right. If anything, the pusher will likely have more control and more of a strategy and might look like the better player to the spectator. The pusher knows his limitations, but the other guy lives in a fantasy world where he thinks that someday his technique will magically improve if he keeps hitting with the same bad technique over and over again.
user92626
G.O.A.T.
Yep. That can happen. Some people push bc that's the only style that they know.
PURETENNISsense
Professional
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Ehhh, a lot of people consider pusher to have a very specific definition or at least specific properties, and it's the MEP type of player often with poor technique and awkward slices who win almost exclusively by keeping the ball in and extracting UEs from their opponents. After a certain point you can't win by feeding your opponents sitters and waiting for them to commit UEs, and have to resort to extracting UEs from your opponents by putting them in awkward positions...at which point they by definition aren't really UEs in any classical sense.
People cite Simon as a pusher at the pro level, but that's really stretching the fundamentals of what a pusher is. He isn't bunting balls (even for his level) short and up the middle for starters. He hits unattackable neutral rally balls and plays around with pace and spin to extract a short ball that he can then pounce on. He's still trying to find an opening to flip the switch and attack. The only thing he has in common with a pusher is that he doesn't hit nearly as hard on average as his peers, and he is consistent. Problem is that 50% of pro players hit softer than average, and the goal of any tennis player is to be as consistent as possible.
At any rate, it's not a term that was born in the pro scene and found its way down as I understand it.
Even the tennis playing styles thread that is stickied on these boards by @Kaptain Karl does not consider pushers to exist past the 4.0-4.5 level.
Let's face it, when OP said he lost to a pusher, none of us imagined he lost to amateur versions of David Ferrer, Gilles Simon, or Andy Murray who wave wonderful technique but play with lower pace. The pusher we all imagined was the MEP type. We only call the amateur Ferrer types (or Ferrer himself) a pusher when we've personally lost to them (or in Ferrer's case, the player we were rooting for loses to Ferrer), and not if we were to observe them play someone else with no horse in the race.
At any rate, insinuating that @JCF is a bad tennis player just because you disagree with him is uncalled for.
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They are a bad player because they don't understand one of the fundamentals of tennis, which is not to try and hit above your ability level. Pushers understand that trying to hit the ball with more pace, spin and power than you're capable of is a recipe for defeat.
For example I can hit a forehand with enough on it to trouble virtually any player at my club, even though I am a 3.0 level hack. The problem is my shot steadiness with that sort of shot is very low. If I attempt to play that aggressively in a match I will hit a mountain of UE and lose.
Players who lose to pushers lose because they are not being realistic about their own game and ability level.
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Notorious_Junkballer
Hall of Fame
No style points awarded in competitive tennis, period. Personally I'm in no ways proud of my style of play, it's just the way I've always played when it's been about winning, and I want to win. On the other hand I can play "normal" tennis as well at 5.0 level.
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Morch Us
Hall of Fame
Isn't that a 3.0 pusher is also doing? Hitting 3.0 level rally balls with 3.0 level pace and spin? Also try feeding a 3.0 pusher a high enough ball 2 feet from net, and tell me whether he is trying to pounce on or not.
If that is targetted to me, I never said he is a bad player. I said it reveals his "level of play". Did not mean to say a specific level of play is bad or good.
If someone says pusher stops at X level, the level X is usually about 1.0 level higher than his playing level. This is because your ability to differentiate an extreme defense beyond that level could be hindered by the overall skill you see on that player. But players playing at level X would definitely consider him a pusher (even though the higher level you go you wise up, there is still ego). Look for responses like "he cannot hurt me at all, he does not have any weapons, i was just playing bad" in college tennis or even pro interviews. By the way I was guilty of that too in my D1 college tennis days, and had some of those annoying lose to players I hate to lose. And yes they usually have dirty looking technique (non traditional technique is the correct word when you don't look down on it) for the level of play (but still effective).
In the end I agree that there is no common definsiion for pusher, and everyone comes up with their own. Which is why I said if USTA defines what a 5.0 pusher will be doing (will try to finish point if ball lands within X feet of service lane, with X speed/spin, Will try to serve below X speed or spin), and what a 4.0 pusher will be doing we will have less of these debates. Trying to debate something which has an open definsiion is just a waste of time.
If that is targetted to me, I never said he is a bad player. I said it reveals his "level of play". Did not mean to say a specific level of play is bad or good.
If someone says pusher stops at X level, the level X is usually about 1.0 level higher than his playing level. This is because your ability to differentiate an extreme defense beyond that level could be hindered by the overall skill you see on that player. But players playing at level X would definitely consider him a pusher (even though the higher level you go you wise up, there is still ego). Look for responses like "he cannot hurt me at all, he does not have any weapons, i was just playing bad" in college tennis or even pro interviews. By the way I was guilty of that too in my D1 college tennis days, and had some of those annoying lose to players I hate to lose. And yes they usually have dirty looking technique (non traditional technique is the correct word when you don't look down on it) for the level of play (but still effective).
In the end I agree that there is no common definsiion for pusher, and everyone comes up with their own. Which is why I said if USTA defines what a 5.0 pusher will be doing (will try to finish point if ball lands within X feet of service lane, with X speed/spin, Will try to serve below X speed or spin), and what a 4.0 pusher will be doing we will have less of these debates. Trying to debate something which has an open definsiion is just a waste of time.
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Dragy
Legend
If MEP plays a 3.5 player, he’ll still look like a pusher. He won’t magically hit faster serves or return with authority. And he will use default pushy slices to elicit short balls - because that’s his major style.
He’ll likely win convincingly, finish some points, like he does against better players, more frequently.
Now if a 5.0 steady defender will hit topspin drives against a midpack 4.0, he’ll push him around and put pressure with solid pace and heaviness. It will not look or feel like a pusher game.
what is a 3.0 pace?
that pace-less high moon ball that lands in the middle of the court?
or is that the attempt to hit every ball stronger than Nadal, that ends up tearing the net and back fence?
Steve Williams
Rookie
Maybe they enjoy winning, particularly against people who act as if they are superior.
Maybe they get a perverse and rather mean-spirited kick out of putting people who try to improve their technique "in their place".
Maybe they just enjoy being outdoors hitting balls and they play the game they are capable of playing.
Maybe they enjoy being super competitive. I know a guy like this. He would probably fall into the category of 'pusher'. After I beat him in a tennis match, he immediately challenged me to a 'quadrathlon' of table tennis, golf, darts and tennis.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
That’s what I call ‘Trolling the Trolls’!Interesting naming and insights. And he (Finally!) gives credit to TW forum members!
Jake Speeed
Professional
Boy, am I going to get in trouble. So be it.
I've "pushed" many times. I'm guilty.
But the match was much more fun.
"credit"? didn't he just call us all trolls?Interesting naming and insights. And he (Finally!) gives credit to TW forum members!
Dragy
Legend
Ill fame is still fame!"credit"? didn't he just call us all trolls?
And who cares if he adopts some disdain? At least doesn’t act as if there is no such a force in tennis interwebs like TT!
D
Deleted member 771407
Guest
Come on, we ain't all trolls ! It hurts right in my meow meow.
Does he sometimes post here btw ?
Does he sometimes post here btw ?
