Pushers - what do they get out of the game?

[socallefty]

Bad technique and offensive with no consistency - ballbasher, troll
Bad technique and consistent with no offense - pusher, hacker, junkballer
Good technique and plays matches - tennis player
Obsesses over technique, but never plays matches - TTW (Tips section) troll

My take

 

[Dragy]

Bad technique and offensive with no consistency - ballbasher, troll
Bad technique and consistent with no offense - pusher, hacker, junkballer
Good technique and plays matches - tennis player
Obsesses over technique, but never plays matches - TTW (Tips section) troll

My take

Interesting enough, Ian didn't point address techniques directly on his chart. He didn't split offence mentality from offence quality either, which is crucial, in my opinion. To some extent, offence quality corresponds with offence consistency, but if we consider extremes, pros still hit 1st serves at relatively low percentage. Consistency may match with that of 4.0 player, mentality (going for ace) - too, but the quality is galaxy apart.

Should it be a 3D chart with consistency, offence and execution quality as scales?

 

[Deleted member 771407]

Bad technique and offensive with no consistency - ballbasher, troll
Bad technique and consistent with no offense - pusher, hacker, junkballer
Good technique and plays matches - tennis player
Obsesses over technique, but never plays matches - TTW (Tips section) troll

My take

I'm halfway between ballbasher and TTW troll. Thinking of converting to full blown TTW troll thanks to the Corona.

 

[AnyPUG]

Interesting enough, Ian didn't point address techniques directly on his chart. He didn't split offence mentality from offence quality either, which is crucial, in my opinion. To some extent, offence quality corresponds with offence consistency, but if we consider extremes, pros still hit 1st serves at relatively low percentage. Consistency may match with that of 4.0 player, mentality (going for ace) - too, but the quality is galaxy apart.

Should it be a 3D chart with consistency, offence and execution quality as scales?

Tbh, Ian is a pusher in tennis and also in approach to life imo. Proof, see his approach to tennis against Ira, Mark and others - keep pushing from near the back fence. Same thing in life - bad injury and starts with Chiro, PT. (No mask with Chiro). Anyone with an offensive mentality would start with an MD for xray, and later PT and Chiro in that order for repair and rehab.
No surprises he smirks at TT technique officianodos.

Other online coaches (OTI, TTT etc) preach techniques and offensive play.

He teaches technique all the time like most coaches. Surely he knows the importance of it , though he seems to discount it when discussing competition. Is it because he lacks good technique? Still learning offensive baseline aspects after 30 years of playing.

 

[GuyClinch]

Tbh, Ian is a pusher in tennis and also in approach to life imo. Proof, see his approach to tennis against Ira, Mark and others - keep pushing from near the back fence. Same thing in life - bad injury and starts with Chiro, PT. (No mask with Chiro). Anyone with an offensive mentality would start with an MD for xray, and later PT and Chiro in that order for repair and rehab.
No surprises he smirks at TT technique officianodos.

Other online coaches (OTI, TTT etc) preach techniques and offensive play.

He teaches technique all the time like most coaches. Surely he knows the importance of it , though he seems to discount it when discussing competition. Is it because he lacks good technique? Still learning offensive baseline aspects after 30 years of playing.

Ian is absolutely right on the border between pusher and counter puncher. IMHO its partly his build - he is very thin and plays how you would imagine someone with that build would play. Even has a WTA forehand which just seems to work better for slight individuals - or perhaps they feel more comfortable with it.

 

[Blitzball]

How exactly are most of the guys complaining about pushers investing in their game more than the ‘pushers’ they lose to? If they cannot beat a pusher, it means they cannot attack slow-pace balls, moonballs, balls in the middle of the court, attack slow serves, stop making errors on the run, stop making errors on overheads, don’t have any shot tolerance on easy balls etc. So, they have many holes in their technique and footwork - in fact, way more than their opponent.

So, are these ball-bashers investing in more coaching lessons to get better technique? Do you see them doing a lot of focused drills with better players to improve their technique or shot-tolerance? Do they buy books or watch videos to improve their mental toughness and strategy? I would say that the answer is no in most cases and they just show up and play matches with their friends just like the pusher does. They somehow seem to think that if they keep trying to hit the ball harder with improper technique and crappy footwork, they will somehow improve faster than the pusher and that they are somehow playing ‘real tennis’ while the other guy is not. More than 95% of rec players don’t make any real investment in time or money to actually improve their game and just show up and hit with their friends with no real purpose or play matches.

The truth is that the average bystander watching a low-level match between a ‘pusher’ and a non-pusher probably will consider both of them as crappy players and they would be right. If anything, the pusher will likely have more control and more of a strategy and might look like the better player to the spectator. The pusher knows his limitations, but the other guy lives in a fantasy world where he thinks that someday his technique will magically improve if he keeps hitting with the same bad technique over and over again.

Sorry, busy week. Do you really think only 5% of rec players try to improve their game beyond just rallying with friends? Almost half of the players at the tennis club where I work take regular private lessons and/or clinics several times a week while competing on multiple leagues. Some of them have gone from 2.5 to 4.0 players over the 10 years that I've been here. I also have friends who don't belong to a club, who I know from high school or from meeting at public courts, and most of them watch YouTube videos and try new drills to improve their game.

Well, as a coach I'll ask you a few questions. Are you supposed to punish short balls by hitting them aggressively? Are you supposed to follow through on your 2nd serve and not dink it into play? Are you supposed to back up from the net after chasing down a drop shot? Pushers recognize their limits to a fault. This happens all the time. They want to win because they're on a league or something, but they don't recognize that if they took a few more risks and missed their shots the right way this season, they'd improve their game over the course of years. Then again, you have a point. Players who just come out and hit with the same friends without playing points or changing their strokes should not expect to raise their ceiling much.

I was a pusher seven years ago. I won 9 singles matches in my league (and lost all my doubles due to poor net play). I hated it though. The following season I decided to play more aggressively, take the net more, work the point by hitting through everything (slicing very little), and attacking returns. This was my "champions take chances" goal. I lost over half my matches. But I stuck to my goal, my new playstyle and mentality. The season after my losing one, I went undefeated and only dropped 1 set (including doubles).

I'm not endorsing players who try to kill every shot. All I'm saying is that it's better for a player's personal development to recognize that there's such a thing as missing shots the right way. The playstyle of pushing can easily become a wall in their development, while players who at least try to play the full court tend to do better in doubles and, if they set some goals and act on them, also tend to have a higher ceiling in general.

 

[Fintft]

Come on, we ain't all trolls ! It hurts right in my meow meow.

Does he sometimes post here btw ?

I agree, what he calls trolls are ball bashers really.

As for us TW trolls, we can't be (most uf anyway) nearly as bad as the guy he showed in the video (the 3.0).
I mean how can a 3.0 be obssesed over technique and not improve it?

 

[travlerajm]

I agree, what he calls trolls are ball bashers really.

As for us TW trolls, we can't be (most uf anyway) nearly as bad as the guy he showed in the video (the 3.0).
I mean how can a 3.0 be obssesed over technique and not improve it?

Some people obsess over what their elbow looks like on video, and keep tweaking and tweaking until they like the look of the path of the elbow. How often the ball goes in the intended direction is less important to them.

Others obsess over what the ball does. They keep tweaking and tweaking until the ball always goes exactly where they want it reliably and accurately. This approach usually results in form that looks ugly on video. But these people usually win more often than the first category of people, and may get accused of being pushers.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I mean how can a 3.0 be obssesed over technique and not improve it?

In the same way someone can keep buying new equipment because he thinks it will be the magic answer...only to repeat the process in a few months.

Meanwhile, his 3Fs [footwork, fitness, focus, and spacing] are sub-par and spending time there would produce actual results whereas it's questionable new gear will do anything.

 

[AnyPUG]

But these people usually win more often than the first category of people, and may get accused of being pushers.

Accused? Are sure it's an accusation? More like rediculing,disparaging, belittling..

There is similarity in life as well. While people who do it justify, but there are who look at it with raised "eyebrows" - not everyone engages in less than "honorable" age old profession to make ends meet. Though truck drivers make more money than school teachers, there is less appeal to be on the road all the time - not everyone thinks win is a win(over teacher's salary) and drive 18 wheelers.

A tiger will not eat grass, no matter how hungry it is. It takes special mindset and ability to satisfy hunger by eating grass.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

Accused? Are sure it's an accusation? More like rediculing,disparaging, belittling..

At least when one is accused, there is a presumption of innocence...

 

[travlerajm]

Accused? Are sure it's an accusation? More like rediculing,disparaging, belittling..

There is similarity in life as well. While people who do it justify, but there are who look at it with raised "eyebrows" - not everyone engages in less than "honorable" age old profession to make ends meet. Though truck drivers make more money than school teachers, there is less appeal to be on the road all the time - not everyone thinks win is a win(over teacher's salary) and drive 18 wheelers.

Are you implying that winning a tennis match with poor technique is dishonorable?

 

[AnyPUG]

Are you implying that winning a tennis match with poor technique is dishonorable?

No, not at all. It's how viewpoints differ based on individual bias and world view.

 

[travlerajm]

No, not at all. It's how viewpoints differ based on individual bias and world view.

At the public red clay club I often played at in Paraguay last year, I was the top player at the club, despite having ugly form compared to all of the teaching pros there. Whenever I referred to myself as a pusher, everyone always corrected me and said I am a “good runner.” It seems like they respected my defensive skills more than people do in the US.

In my trips to neighboring Argentina, I have always found the opposite to be true. Any time I beat someone there, I always get snide comments about how he would have destroyed me if it weren’t for the conditions. Or about how my technique sucks.

 

[Notorious_Junkballer]

I was trying to find videos and articles on how to play good push-tennis but there's literally nothing out there - it's all about "how to BEAT a pusher", and absolutely nada on how to become one or how to be successful in junk tennis.

 

[travlerajm]

I was trying to find videos and articles on how to play good push-tennis but there's literally nothing out there - it's all about "how to BEAT a pusher", and absolutely nada on how to become one or how to be successful in junk tennis.

That’s because the pushers and junkers are not in any hurry to give away their competitive advantage by spreading their nuanced skills.

 

[Morch Us]

I really meant, a 3.0 "pusher" pace, so something which you can make in with extreme safety for a 3.0 (since it is pusher pace).
Of course 3.0 basher pace would be different.

what is a 3.0 pace?

 

[Morch Us]

To me everything on the right side of his graph is "pusher"(defense) and left side is "basher"(aggressive), irrespective of level.
Again since there is no common definision, Ian like to call higher level pushers as "counter punchers" and higher level bashers as "aggressive baseliners".

But he explains clearly why towards the high end (GOAT) it becomes harder to stay on one extreme.
As the level goes up, more players start to crowd the middle of the road.

Interesting naming and insights. And he (Finally!) gives credit to TW forum members!

 

[Fintft]

In the same way someone can keep buying new equipment because he thinks it will be the magic answer...only to repeat the process in a few months.

Meanwhile, his 3Fs [footwork, fitness, focus, and spacing] are sub-par and spending time there would produce actual results whereas it's questionable new gear will do anything.

Yes, but all things in moderation...
And I still think that most of us, TW "trolls" are way better than the 3.0 Ian showed in the video...

 

[GuyClinch]

Yes, but all things in moderation...
And I still think that most of us, TW "trolls" are way better than the 3.0 Ian showed in the video...

Ian just doesn't like getting bullied by hard hitters. So he calls the unfinished version of those players trolls. I personally feel like trolls end up as great players more often then pushers. The main reason why I think is that the more athletic physically stronger types like to hit hard and have more athletic confidence to keep doing so. Pushers attract the nervous type that wants to win. Obviously there are exceptions..

 

[AnyPUG]

Ian just doesn't like getting bullied by hard hitters. So he calls the unfinished version of those players trolls. I personally feel like trolls end up as great players more often then pushers. The main reason why I think is that the more athletic physically stronger types like to hit hard and have more athletic confidence to keep doing so. Pushers attract the nervous type that wants to win. Obviously there are exceptions..

I agree, he has taken consistency in a wrong direction. Nobody likes to watch ugly tennis - after all sports is for the spectators. Easy to keep the ball in play, it takes skill to hit the ball hard. Brave people love challenges and thrive.

 

[ubercat]

The thing I don't get is this is so easy to practice against. Painters tape some targets on the wall. Hit gently upwards. Rinse and repeat until your feet bleed.

 

[ubercat]

I loved my brief pickleball career. It was like slow mo tennis - I could actually volley. Once I got used to the bounce I could hit banana FH passing shots. And there was one angry lesbian there who enjoyed playing judge correcting all the beginner blokes. So for my community service I made her look so very bad in one match and after that played nice and she toned down. Of course there were real players who made me look like a chump. Didn't seem to damage my tennis.

 

[ubercat]

I was trying to find videos and articles on how to play good push-tennis but there's literally nothing out there - it's all about "how to BEAT a pusher", and absolutely nada on how to become one or how to be successful in junk tennis.

Check out my 'bagelled' match journal thread. Lots of notes there on trying to absorb fellow tennis mutants powers into my junker style.

 

[Humbi_HTX]

In years of playing in public courts, I have not played against a real pusher, in fact I think is like a boogyman that loosers create in their imaginary answer of why they lost to somebody they feel should have won.

I say its imaginary because the so called pusher is not really just sending the ball back mindlessly anywhere in the court, like some here claim, they have developed an ugly style but its not all random.

I have had to loose/win against many of these junkballers and moonball artists, but the "pushers" helped me develop the mental side, work on repetitive shots and finding how to control the points.

 

[socallefty]

The OP’s question is what do pushers get out of the game? The answer is ‘endorphins’.

They get endorphins by running around a lot and also by winning. For the bashers playing short points who don’t run much, they had better win because that’s the only way they are getting enough endorphins to feel good after a match.

”Improved self-esteem is a key psychological benefit of regular physical activity. When you exercise, your body releases chemicals called endorphins. These endorphins interact with the receptors in your brain that reduce your perception of pain. Endorphins trigger a positive feeling in the body, similar to that of morphine. For example, the feeling that follows a run or workout is often described as "euphoric." That feeling, known as a "runner's high," can be accompanied by a positive and energizing outlook on life.”

 

[GuyClinch]

In years of playing in public courts, I have not played against a real pusher, in fact I think is like a boogyman that loosers create in their imaginary answer of why they lost to somebody they feel should have won.

I say its imaginary because the so called pusher is not really just sending the ball back mindlessly anywhere in the court, like some here claim, they have developed an ugly style but its not all random.

I have had to loose/win against many of these junkballers and moonball artists, but the "pushers" helped me develop the mental side, work on repetitive shots and finding how to control the points.

Absolutely agree. This is why Green Shirt Guy or MEP is so popular - he is the boogeyman for most players. But your chance meeting him vs. meeting a garden variety dude is just much better at tennis is very low. Most other 4.5s hit bigger on serves and with more pace from the baseline. The standard "good" American player - big serve (100mph+) and big forehand.

Playsight is a system that tracks pace with multiple cameras and if you have a club with access to that you will note that most of the time in actual matches - the higher level players hit harder. So really as you go up levels you develop shots with more pace and more spin. This idea that pushers are beating people with effective strokes everywhere around the world is an exaggeration. They are beating people who aren't as good as they imagine they are in their head. They take advantage of that. But the actual skill gap is not that huge.

 

[beltsman]

Pusher defense force swarming the thread. Pushing is for cowards, simple as.

 

[Dragy]

Absolutely agree. This is why Green Shirt Guy or MEP is so popular - he is the boogeyman for most players. But your chance meeting him vs. meeting a garden variety dude is just much better at tennis is very low. Most other 4.5s hit bigger on serves and with more pace from the baseline. The standard "good" American player - big serve (100mph+) and big forehand.

And funny thing, I believe, the reasons behind one loosing to MEP is literally same as loosing to more convenient higher level player: lack of quality for wide/full package of tools, and excess of errors. Improve in both, and you compete better against any opponent.

 

[ServeBot]

Word for word from a pusher I know. Plays 100% defensive, every chance he gets he hits a moon ball.

"He challenged me every week. Just about every set is 6-3 me and he tell me at least 20x per match, "I hate to tell you this - you're not beating me - I'm beating myself. Your balls aren't hard. You're not a good tennis player." - I get so much satisfaction from it.

- Moonballer/pusher

They love winning and they love seeing you get frustrated.

 

[AnyPUG]

And funny thing, I believe, the reasons behind one loosing to MEP is literally same as loosing to more convenient higher level player: lack of quality for wide/full package of tools, and excess of errors. Improve in both, and you compete better against any opponent.

Did you see NYC match against MEP? NYC was leading 3-1 and lost interest in the battle of no shot wonders. Not because he could not handle his shots- because he didn't find it challenging to play the style of crappy shot tennis. If there's a real prize for winning, would NYC stop trying to win? I doubt it

 

[Dragy]

Did you see NYC match against MEP? NYC was leading 3-1 and lost interest in the battle of no shot wonders. Not because he could not handle his shots- because he didn't find it challenging to play the style of crappy shot tennis. If there's a real prize for winning, would NYC stop trying to win? I doubt it

That my have something behind it, and it’s called tanking. Seen even in pros. Why you need this win is totally on you, not on your opponent, agree? If you don’t want this win under these circumstances - well, you don’t get it.
While NYC could possibly win if he didn’t collapse mentally (and possibly started tanking), he didn’t have enough tools to wipe MEP off the court. Better player would.

 

[esm]

Gold medal pusher LOL

Nah man.... he was at the right place, at the right time. If he was much better, he’d be on the ice like most of them at the front of the pack.... but that doesn’t mean he is a pusher though. Maybe just “less skilful”.... lol

 

[AnyPUG]

That my have something behind it, and it’s called tanking. Seen even in pros. Why you need this win is totally on you, not on your opponent, agree? If you don’t want this win under these circumstances - well, you don’t get it.
While NYC could possibly win if he didn’t collapse mentally (and possibly started tanking), he didn’t have enough tools to wipe MEP off the court. Better player would.

You said "one loosing to MEP is literally same as loosing to more convenient higher level player". I really doubt if it's the case - it comes down to motivation. Even if people are able, they may not be willing to spend the necessary capital on ventures that they don't find useful or fun. While it's not possible for a player to win against a higher level player even if he tried his best, it's possible for him to beat a pusher at his level if he got motivated himself (a playoff, matches that matter in terms of year/season end rating etc). I have seen so many examples where a person pretending to be a "mad baseliner" loosing inconsequential matches will go and scrape out critical wins when it mattered. Is the "mad baseliner" happy to loose? Most probably not - he will probably "blame" the the opponent for being a "pusher".

 

[Dragy]

You said "one loosing to MEP is literally same as loosing to more convenient higher level player". I really doubt if it's the case - it comes down to motivation. Even if people are able, they may not be willing to spend the necessary capital on ventures that they don't find useful or fun. While it's not possible for a player to win against a higher level player even if he tried his best, it's possible for him to beat a pusher at his level if he got motivated himself (a playoff, matches that matter in terms of year/season end rating etc). I have seen so many examples where a person pretending to be a "mad baseliner" loosing inconsequential matches will go and scrape out critical wins when it mattered. Is the "mad baseliner" happy to loose? Most probably not - he will probably "blame" the the opponent for being a "pusher".

I just see no reason in discussing lack of motivation. Well, once in 20 matches - okay.
So I consider only the case when a person cannot win.

 

[travlerajm]

You said "one loosing to MEP is literally same as loosing to more convenient higher level player". I really doubt if it's the case - it comes down to motivation. Even if people are able, they may not be willing to spend the necessary capital on ventures that they don't find useful or fun. While it's not possible for a player to win against a higher level player even if he tried his best, it's possible for him to beat a pusher at his level if he got motivated himself (a playoff, matches that matter in terms of year/season end rating etc). I have seen so many examples where a person pretending to be a "mad baseliner" loosing inconsequential matches will go and scrape out critical wins when it mattered. Is the "mad baseliner" happy to loose? Most probably not - he will probably "blame" the the opponent for being a "pusher".

I think you are not appreciating that MEP can also vary his style. I think he is straight-up a higher level player than NYC. MEP just pushes when his low-to-mid 4.5 opponent bashes, and then when his opponent starts pushing back, MEP switches on the windshield wipers and moves him side to side until he gasses out. MEP will beat any player consistently who isn’t at least a high 4.5.

 

[AnyPUG]

I think you are not appreciating that MEP can also vary his style. I think he is straight-up a higher level player than NYC. MEP just pushes when his low-to-mid 4.5 opponent bashes, and then when his opponent starts pushing back, MEP switches on the windshield wipers and moves him side to side until he gasses out. MEP will beat any player consistently who isn’t at least a high 4.5.

Good point - that's probably true - I don't think I considered his potential ability to switch gears to a more aggressive mode.

 

[travlerajm]

Good point - that's probably true - I don't think I considered his potential ability to switch gears to a more aggressive mode.

His aggressive mode just looks different than what you are used to.

 

[Fintft]

The OP’s question is what do pushers get out of the game? The answer is ‘endorphins’.

They get endorphins by running around a lot and also by winning. For the bashers playing short points who don’t run much, they had better win because that’s the only way they are getting enough endorphins to feel good after a match.

”Improved self-esteem is a key psychological benefit of regular physical activity. When you exercise, your body releases chemicals called endorphins. These endorphins interact with the receptors in your brain that reduce your perception of pain. Endorphins trigger a positive feeling in the body, similar to that of morphine. For example, the feeling that follows a run or workout is often described as "euphoric." That feeling, known as a "runner's high," can be accompanied by a positive and energizing outlook on life.”

Hmm, thast must be why I practically play daily (or jogg in the off days)... I mean if I don't run as much as a pusher.

 

[ubercat]

I have a social player in our regular group of 4 who complains if I drop shot. Which btw is normally not a DS just me scrambling. And he says I m a pusher. While I m smacking FHs and serves past him. Some people r so great in their own minds they can't accept losing.

 

[PKorda]

I have a social player in our regular group of 4 who complains if I drop shot. Which btw is normally not a DS just me scrambling. And he says I m a pusher. While I m smacking FHs and serves past him. Some people r so great in their own minds they can't accept losing.

Anyone who complains when someone drop shots doesn't understand tennis and doesn't even warrant a response. I mean maybe if the person being drop shotted was injured or elderly but otherwise just ridiculous.

 

[ubercat]

Thanks this guy is one of those socially competitive A holes. The lady who organises this hit. Her partner is a 4.5 to 5.0. I learnt it off him. Anytime he is jammed or stretched he concentrates o controlling the RF and returning a slow angled slice in an awkward spot

 

[Fintft]

I have a social player in our regular group of 4 who complains if I drop shot. Which btw is normally not a DS just me scrambling. And he says I m a pusher. While I m smacking FHs and serves past him. Some people r so great in their own minds they can't accept losing.

Well:

1. Most of us don't like to move vertically up and down the court, but mainly laterally
2. The above problem being compounded by the many BL rally sessions, when we try to hone our shots...

 

[PKorda]

Well:

1. Most of us don't like to move vertically up and down the court, but mainly laterally
2. The above problem being compounded by the many BL rally sessions, when we try to hone our shots...

Who is 'most of us'?

 

[socallefty]

I don’t mind moving vertically if it is on my own volition - moving in to hit a winner off a short ball that I forced, coming to net off a good approach, going back from the net to hit a mid-court smash.

I don’t like moving up and down if my opponent is pulling the strings like a puppeteer and making me run with short slices, drop shots, short angles or deep, topspin lobs. If he is able to do that, it means that my shots/serves/returns are not bothering him and he is controlling the point patterns which is the real issue. I have to find a way to do something different or I’m going to lose the match in this instance.

 

[Fintft]

Who is 'most of us'?

TW "trolls" lol, or recreational players:

I don’t mind moving vertically if it is on my own volition - moving in to hit a winner off a short ball that I forced, coming to net off a good approach, going back from the net to hit a mid-court smash. I don’t like moving up and down if my opponent is pulling the strings like a puppeteer and making me run with short slices, drop shots, short angles or deep, topspin lobs.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I don’t mind moving vertically if it is on my own volition - moving in to hit a winner off a short ball that I forced, coming to net off a good approach, going back from the net to hit a mid-court smash.

I don’t like moving up and down if my opponent is pulling the strings like a puppeteer and making me run with short slices, drop shots, short angles or deep, topspin lobs. If he is able to do that, it means that my shots/serves/returns are not bothering him and he is controlling the point patterns which is the real issue. I have to find a way to do something different or I’m going to lose the match in this instance.

I'm OK moving forward even if my opponent is trying to draw me in; I get to the net, which is where I want to be. It's up to me to do something with my approach so I just don't easily passed/lobbed.

 

[Fintft]

I'm OK moving forward even if my opponent is trying to draw me in; I get to the net, which is where I want to be. It's up to me to do something with my approach so I just don't easily passed/lobbed.

How about moving in an X? And if so, are you a ...Spaniard?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

How about moving in an X? And if so, are you a ...Spaniard?

"I could give you my word as a Spaniard!" - Inigo Montoya

"No good! I've known too many Spaniards.!" - The Man In Black; *The Princess Bride*

 

[navigator]

Maybe a lot of pushers just play for exercise, and pushing is the best technique if you want to run a lot. I love pushing mainly for that reason. I just want to run a lot. Would I prefer to win? Sure. But I'm considerably more interested in the running.