Dragy
Legend
Cmon man, there’re better options for those who love running than tennis
Pushers - what do they get out of the game?
- Thread starter JCF
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navigator
Hall of Fame
Cmon man, there’re better options for those who love running than tennis
Not if you define "better" as "more enjoyable." I don't like running, generally; just running on the court.
My mom always said tennis ball is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get - short, deep, slice, spin, in, out...
Dragy
Legend
You like running while seeing the guy on the other side catch frustration, collapse and self-destruct. Did I mention running? Oh I did... and that’s fun.
It's the winning they like, IMHO - the frustration is just a bonus. It's not the running because well the wall never misses and you can run forever playing it.
For me it is about what gives you fun. For most, and I might be generalizing, it is probably to play at a decent consistent level. Hitting good looking shots and attacking while making fewer errors takes a lot of years to master. Playing a defensive style is easier to be consistent much more faster.
Also again there are very few true pushers as others have also mentioned. One who just sits and lobs waiting for your error. Most of the time someone hitting with less pace than you and not going for broke at the wrong time, is classified as a pusher by the sore loser.
Also again there are very few true pushers as others have also mentioned. One who just sits and lobs waiting for your error. Most of the time someone hitting with less pace than you and not going for broke at the wrong time, is classified as a pusher by the sore loser.
navigator
Hall of Fame
Actually I prefer playing someone with an even temperament that doesn't get frustrated and self-destruct. It's no fun playing folks who take chasing a fuzzy yellow ball around too seriously. If you eliminated the exercise and the social element of tennis I wouldn't pick up a racquet. I get little intrinsic joy from the game itself; it's just a lot more fun than going to the gym, and tournaments are a good excuse to see the world and meet people.
navigator
Hall of Fame
The wall is fine for 30 minutes but it gets pretty boring after that. And you don't do much running playing against the wall (just a lot of hitting); a player two levels below you will make you run more than the wall.
Sure but if you wanted to run against the wall you could - right? So clearly it's not the running. And absolutely the wall gets boring fast.. You could also run a lot with a ball machine - set up some ball far apart - and put it on a fairly fast feed rate.. Not really fun - but you will run.
S&V-not_dead_yet
Talk Tennis Guru
That's a good point: the better you are, the more accurate your wall hitting, the less running you have to do. But against a lesser opponent who is not as skilled at placing the ball, you will have to run more.
But you could vary your shot against the wall: hit droppers, then a chip lob, go CC instead of DTL, etc.
navigator
Hall of Fame
I have a ball machine that I use all the time, doing exactly as you suggest. Great running. Not as much fun and variety as a decent human player... but sometimes even more running... those balls just keep coming. Clearly, it's the running.
Jake Speeed
Professional
Winning!
tlm
G.O.A.T.
I agree I do some running for conditioning but cannot say I enjoy it. But chasing that ball around the court is a lot of fun, I can keep running much longer if playing tennis as opposed to just running.
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
For me, making the opponent run a lot is more fun than running a lot myself on the tennis court. If I could live my dream, I want to play the tennis style that I hate watching at the pro level - be a servebot and hit mostly service winners and serve+1 winners. It is far from my reality though and will only be a dream now that I am past 50. But, a key stat that I monitor every year for singles is the % of matches in which my serve is never broken as it obviously directly correlates to winning more.
smalahove
Hall of Fame
Every player, at every level resorts to "pusher" strategies during a match. Nadal does this frequently, but perhaps the reason he's not "called out" on it, is his blistering offensive game. More than not, he pumps slower high moon balls to his opponent's BH side (often DTL) because it's the smart move. Balls that have no pace, where you have to inject the pace yourself, and that have to be hit outside of your optimal strike zone, especially above it, are hard, at any level.
To be able to handle 4.0-4.5 pushers consistently and well, these are good points:
Add to that:
To be able to handle 4.0-4.5 pushers consistently and well, these are good points:
Add to that:
- You need to be able to close in on the net and/or take balls early from the baseline to steal time away from a pusher.
- I.e. you esp. have to be proficient at mid court volleys and pref. drive FHs and BHs, and overheads
- You have to be able to drive the ball heavy and consistently in the middle of the court.
Most pushers enjoy crosscourt duels, as they have more court to work with (esp. former squash players). - You have to be able to put away short balls. This is where pushers often get their points. You've managed to force a short return, but you're not proficient enough to take advantage of it, which brings me to the last point:
- Be aware of (avoiding using) losing patterns, i.e. don't use a pattern which brings you to a shot type you're not comfortable with.
was watching one the MEP vids...
some observations:
* great general athlete, i bet he played college sports... seems like he has great awareness of his own body
* great hands... i think it takes alot of skill to play his style of precision placement using feel (vs. spin)
* great mover... he definitely played other sports
* mentally tough... unlike me, that chokes or tends to lose focus
* probably took few if any lessons.... probably a DIY'er, and can't justify spending the $, especially if he's winning or competitive with 4.5 level folks with DIY strokes, and probalby content, given the level of committment required to get to 5.0.
some observations:
* great general athlete, i bet he played college sports... seems like he has great awareness of his own body
* great hands... i think it takes alot of skill to play his style of precision placement using feel (vs. spin)
* great mover... he definitely played other sports
* mentally tough... unlike me, that chokes or tends to lose focus
* probably took few if any lessons.... probably a DIY'er, and can't justify spending the $, especially if he's winning or competitive with 4.5 level folks with DIY strokes, and probalby content, given the level of committment required to get to 5.0.
navigator
Hall of Fame
For the ATP top-200 a couple of years ago, the average service hold percentage was 76%; for the WTA top-200 it was 65%. I suspect that for rec players it's around 50%, maybe slightly above. I've found that *generally* there's no huge advantage to serving at the rec level (although a bit more advantage in doubles than singles). I suspect that in the matches where your serve is not broken you're playing someone that's just not at your level.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
When I was younger (high school through my early 30s), the strength of my game was my serve, which I usually followed in behind with serve-and-volley.
Most of my close matches were serving duals.
These days, my big-serving days are behind me, and my serve is a weakness on most days, but my return game is stronger. I hold serve about 50% of the time against players my level now. Despite significant improvements in my return game and forehand, my overall level is significantly worse now than it was 17 years ago, because having a dominant serve that makes holding serve easy is very valuable.
Most of my close matches were serving duals.
These days, my big-serving days are behind me, and my serve is a weakness on most days, but my return game is stronger. I hold serve about 50% of the time against players my level now. Despite significant improvements in my return game and forehand, my overall level is significantly worse now than it was 17 years ago, because having a dominant serve that makes holding serve easy is very valuable.
FiReFTW
Legend
I think it also depends on the level, I would think that at 5.5 or ok lets say 5.0 the serve is quite important, but at 3.5 or 4.0 I assume you are right, most players don't really have an advantage by serving and the serve is broken many times, but I guess there could also be outliners, like someone having a very good serve but the rest of his game much lower level.
what happened to the serve? injury?
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
It depends on the style of the player, the level and the surface - my experience in Southern California is different from yours. I play several tall 4.5 guys who are under 40 in singles regularly on hard courts whose serve is a big weapon and also a couple of others who S-V and use their serve to set up their volley - they are all ex-college players. Generally, singles sets are decided by one break of serve and sometimes two breaks against that style of player. The older baseliners I play are more likely to get broken a couple of times per set, but they return better and break back more often too.
In my case, I have developed my lefty serve to be more of a weapon compared to the rest of my game from a young age. While I can’t crank the 100mph flat serve consistently anymore, I still have a lot of variety (flat and slice for 1st, top-slice and kick for 2nd) and location precision. It is rare for me to have singles matches where I’m broken more than three times and that usually is against the higher-end 4.5s - on average, I get broken once per set in close matches and once a match in easier straight-set wins. In the last decade, the matches where I have not been broken at all are at 21% for singles, but only 13% for doubles. Before I had a somewhat serious knee injury in 2015, the 2011-2015 singles matches in which I had at least three aces was about 25%, but since then I hit less aces and go for more precision. My goal in every singles match is still to get two easy points (serve winner or serve+1 winner) per service game and I take risks accordingly in terms of aiming close to the sidelines.
I am sure that there is quite a bit of variation in serve effectiveness at the 4.5+ level as you have a mix of ex-college players, ex-high school players and then others who learned tennis as adults. The ones who learned as adults generally have weaker serves.
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travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Good question. I’m not a really tall guy with leverage. And my serve form wasn’t smooth and perfect like sampras. I had a big serve because I used to serve buckets of balls every day in high school, and I kept making tweaks based on the feedback of trying to make my serve bounce higher up on the back curtain.
I ended up with a jump serve. I made contact with my feet a foot off the ground, and my front foot landed 6 feet inside the court. I basically launched my body upward and forward into the court like the Battistones.
My unusual downward serve angle came from the height of my jump instead of from height. And my power came from jumping so far forward into the court for faster forward center-of-mass speed instead of from a great kinetic chain.
Unfortunately, that explosive style of serve is a young man’s style. It became harder to execute as a got older without risking injury to my calves, knees, and hamstrings. It also required great timing. I still dial up my big jump serve in times when I’m able to play 5-6x per week for a couple of weeks in a row, but those times are rare.
Also, when you stop practicing serving hard, and start just rolling in the serve softly to conserve energy and wear on the legs, the soft roller becomes the new normal. It’s much harder to suddenly shift gears and dial up a big heavy blast when you haven’t been practicing serving hard.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Sad but true, unless you are really tall. Height ages well.
navigator
Hall of Fame
Interesting... much of my tennis experience is in SoCal as well (specifically, San Diego). I would still be playing once a week at Balboa Park if it weren't for the pandemic. Anyhow, people's experiences in such matters vary...
socallefty
G.O.A.T.
Yes…so many variables determine the type of players you run into. When I played in public parks and a quasi-public tennis club run by the city (low monthly fee for city residents) in OC, I played mostly against 4.0/4.5 players who learned tennis as adults. I joined a private club a few years ago which costs more and here there is a large group of ex-college players with a wide range of ages - so, many more quality 4.5+ opponents with solid technique compared to what I was used to in the same county for decades before that. Before, USTA leagues used to offer the toughest competition and now the social tennis at my club is the toughest competition. I never knew that so many ex-college players lived here locally before I joined this club.
I'm 187cm. Not a giant, but not a midget either.
RiverRat
Professional
I want to pay tribute to a great man and a great pusher, George Springer, aka "The Spring Man." I was, perhaps, 13 or 14. He was a professor of aero-physics from Stanford, visiting at the University of Michigan for about four years of my life. I don't know how I began playing with him. I guess it was because I was the pro shop rat who played with everyone, and he was new to the club. He had a Wilson T-2000 and he loved to moon ball. He ran everything down. You couldn't beat him unless you had a reliable overhead. It took me a while to develop the skills to beat him. I still remember the day. I was so happy. I collapsed in the air-conditioning of the pro shop. Then I saw him come out of the locker room with his running gear on. He was really something.
enishi1357
Semi-Pro
I developed a liking for pushers. I know at least two who generally wants to play like me but are not young and lack to strength so ideally it makes more sense just to push. Also I think pushers are a waste of time so I in turn polish my serve just yesterday and waste their time as well. But some pushers did not get the memo. Apparently a young pusher "coach" me to serve faster. How ironic. But it was thanks to them continually play with me that I'm at the level I'm at right now. Would it be better playing someone better? Of course. Playing someone better means I could mooch off advices but I have to do by myself and off the internet. Instead a pusher mooch off an advice off me and now goes around young pretty girls beginner tennis players to teach them. He even played better nowadays.
Now I'm at a level I could prob win just from my first serve but deliberately serve kick or second serve just to work on it as it's not as consistent before but now I fixed it. FYI my second serve is not those dink serve but real kick or topspin serve that curves down. I'm always annoyed when that young pusher coach me to dink it in when in fact with service grip and my take back it's alot harder to serve flat than to topspin it in.
So pushers are a good thing as they fill the courts with people who you can polish your strokes with and that losing to them doesn't mean anything as you will continuously improve one bit at a time until you can like me win just off second serve. It's a win win situation.
Now I'm at a level I could prob win just from my first serve but deliberately serve kick or second serve just to work on it as it's not as consistent before but now I fixed it. FYI my second serve is not those dink serve but real kick or topspin serve that curves down. I'm always annoyed when that young pusher coach me to dink it in when in fact with service grip and my take back it's alot harder to serve flat than to topspin it in.
So pushers are a good thing as they fill the courts with people who you can polish your strokes with and that losing to them doesn't mean anything as you will continuously improve one bit at a time until you can like me win just off second serve. It's a win win situation.
smalahove
Hall of Fame
I'm watching the game between Millman and Simon, the king of pushers, and I am amazed of how this strategy is so effective and efficient. It's not wonder even the ATGs have had problems with Simon.
I agree, albeit with a sour taste in my mouth, that pushers are a good thing as:
- they reveal the real flaws in your game, better than anyone else. Yes, you might think it's your less-than-par kick serve or your drop shot volleys, but more often than not, it's exactly the shots you're not able to execute against pushers, like high loopy balls, or shot dinky shots, or high bouncing approach shots aso ...
- "pushing" is a ruthlessly effective and efficient strategy. Like I mentioned, look at any good match from Simon. He only produces shots that fill the minimum requirement of enough depth, pace and/or spin to keep his opponent in a neutral ball rally, with the maximum probability of executing the intended shot. He's playing a super safe game of tit-for-tat.
- You learn to reflect over which player has the initiative in the exchange (or you should at least). You might think your initiative of going inside-out with FH CC lets you keep the initiative throughout, but more often than not, at least in my experience, the pusher starts getting hold of the control of the exchange, unnoticeably.
Most of the time, that analysis will lead to an answer, if done objectively, that next shot most often should be a neutral one.
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Good post. One great advantage of pushers is you get a chance to work on your offense. You just have to suck up your ego and understand that you will lose if you can't execute your game play. If you are just playing people much better then you - you tend to focus on playing defensively and hoping they make a few mistakes. But a pusher kinda frees you up to play more aggressively. And you get to hit all the joyful shots in tennis - like overheads or short court angled winners..
