NoleFam
Bionic Poster
But who was his main coach in 2011 when he was an ultra aggressive baseline beast? Vadja. Nole won't get back to his best overnight and it takes time but dogging Vadja who has helped bring him so much success doesn't add up.
Queens ATP 500 FINAL - [1] Marin Cilic vs [WC] Novak Djokovic
- Thread starter Checkmate
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But who was his main coach in 2011 when he was an ultra aggressive baseline beast? Vadja. Nole won't get back to his best overnight and it takes time but dogging Vadja who has helped bring him so much success doesn't add up.
That's right. I would love to be wrong, but I am expecting the worse.
Meles
Bionic Poster
Its a definite possibility is Fed may pull the plug again on Cincy or Rogers Cup. Fed is damaged goods right now. I thought he actually played Coric extremely well, but two straight finals and just the week off before Wimby is a lot to ask for him at this point of his career. Winning Cincy might be a much more reasonable goal for the year for Novak rather than US Open and playing warmup like Citi makes sense.Win Cincy and retire on a high note, having won all Slams, WTF and all masters?
Its a great draw once again this year and that might attract him. I'd argue that Citi last year was better than Rogers or Cinci because it wasn't chocked full of clay court specialists and other long in the tooth Euros. Every player at the Citi is relatively strong on hard courts.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Part of me is looking forward to all the rationalizations and explanations from the usual crowd here though. It's gonna be one fun read.
Checkmate
Legend
The same issue Federer had in 2015.
Doesn't want to play big points.
Expects things to Fall in his basket.
Needs a leader like coach around him.
Polar opposite tennis on pressure points compared to the one being played on normal points. Not the aggression of a Champion more like that of a challenger similar to Federer in W 2015, USO 2015, WTF 2015 Final.
zagor
Bionic Poster
You think that Novak had a better killer instinct under Becker.
Plamen1234
Hall of Fame
Its a definite possibility is Fed may pull the plug again on Cincy or Rogers Cup. Fed is damaged goods right now. I thought he actually played Coric extremely well, but two straight finals and just the week off before Wimby is a lot to ask for him at this point of his career. Winning Cincy might be a much more reasonable goal for the year for Novak rather than US Open and playing warmup like Citi makes sense.
He played very well in the first 2 sets actually - didnt face BP there and he should have won the TB in the first set.There was improvements from his previous matches for sure.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Murray is a better opponent to play against than Nadal/Djokovic, but not an easy one either.
I'll take one Masters win in a final over Murray over getting destroyed 3 times in Masters finals.
Another story if Raonic had actually made it competitive to an extent in the Masters finals . he didn't. Would you trust Raonic to beat Murray in a Masters final ?
He was up a set and a break in Queens 16 final vs Murray, but ended up losing ..
granted Raonic has been clearly more consistent.
and did have a good enough showing in YEC 16, but that's about it.
but then main talk was about Cilic or Raonic vs federer in slam ...read below ...
oh, like Raonic didn't get lucky to make his sole slam final --- Fed choking big time in the 4th set and then actually getting injured in the 5th set.
Like I said, if you swap the QF/SF versions of fed in Wim 16, Cilic wins and Raonic loses.
2016 was on similar level of weakness as 2017 and 2018.
getting destroyed by Djokovic in slams ? you need to get your facts right ...
Cilic took a set off Djokovic in USO 08, RG 14 ...was up 2 sets to 1 in Wim 14 ....lost in straight sets to Djoko in Wim 15. It was a convincing win, but it wasn't a destruction. Djoko was at his very best (similar form the final, QF&F were his best 2 matches on grass, IMO) ...the only destruction was the USO 15 semi , where Cilic was injured.
Cilic has a win in slams over each of Federer, Murray and Nadal.
Raonic only has over Federer.
And unlike Raonic, who's only been a factor at AO and Wim, Cilic has been a factor at AO, Wim and USO.
Edit : If you can't see Cilic's improved mentality in recent times in the slams, that's your problem.
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Meles
Bionic Poster
I thought it was tremendous play from both Fed and Coric and a real treat. Much higher level than this match save Cilic's impressive comeback. Fed won 52% of the points and lost. I've never seen anything like it especially with the 6-2 blow out by Coric with 60% of the points going to Borna. Coric really pulled a rabbit out of the hat and it was hammer and tongs until Fed started blinking a bit in the 3rd.
Coric had Fed pinned to the baseline, but Fed's new backhand on the whole really held up well to a very stern test. Coric was a mental giant in the match which was amazing given he choked Fed the match in Miami where he should have won in straight sets.
Coric is blowing my mind because I predicted a great year on clay for him and instead he's done great on hard and grass.
A healthy Coric is a load.
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Deleted member 758560
Guest
btw bookmakers still think nadal has better chances to win wimby than cilic
Meles
Bionic Poster
I don't like Cilic all that much, but he's becoming a gamer and learning to pull out his best in the big matches. I'm beginning to understand the tears from last year.
Today was one of his better comebacks?
Meles
Bionic Poster
Odds can be a popularity contest and that would be a fine example of it.btw bookmakers still think nadal has better chances to win wimby than cilic
AceSalvo
Legend
btw bookmakers still think nadal has better chances to win wimby than cilic
Until this happens, Nadal meets Cilic and retires "injured".
Plamen1234
Hall of Fame
I thought it was tremendous play from both Fed and Coric and a real treat. Much higher level than this match save Cilic's impressive comeback. Fed won 52% of the points and lost. I've never seen anything like it especially with the 6-2 blow out by Coric with 60% of the points going to Borna. Coric really pulled a rabbit out of the hat and it was hammer and tongs until Fed started blinking a bit in the 3rd.
Coric had Fed pinned to the baseline, but Fed's new backhand on the whole really held up well to a very stern test. Coric was a mental giant in the match which was amazing given he choked Fed the match in Miami where he should have won in straight sets.
Coric is blowing my mind because I predicted a great year on clay for him and instead he's done great on hard and grass.
Yeah I agree with you. But small correction - the match was in IW,not in Miami.I would have preferred Coric to would have won this match,at least I wouldnt haven seen the final with the Del Po and the missed MPs there
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
Don't you like his team of thugs? I don't blame you!
In all seriousness, he looked a lot better at this tournament than he's looked for over two years. I've been critical of his game for that entire time but today he looked much more solid IMO. What he needs to do is win some titles to give him some confidence. Losing to one of his biggest squabs/pigeons(Cilic) doesn't help with that.
marc45
G.O.A.T.
"I was just trying to stay mentally in it. And definitely, it was an extremely tough match," Cilic said. "No breaks for me until that last [return] game. I definitely feel relieved that I won it and what a great week."
"I was in a hole and I felt even in that first set I was maybe slightly better and unfortunately lost it towards the end," Cilic said. "I had a lot of break points throughout the [first] set and I felt that with my game, I was feeling really, really good, I was hitting the ball great. And I felt that when I connected and served well, I thought I was going to get a really good chance."
."[I'm] very delighted. Extremely happy for today’s win and also throughout the week, I was playing great tennis," Cilic said. "It was extremely tough today. I had to wait almost until the last game to get that first and crucial break… Novak was playing great tennis. It was definitely a joy to be a part of this final and to lift this trophy again."
............
"He deserved to win," Djokovic said. "It's a tough loss for me today, obviously. But I have to see it from a positive side. I haven't played a final at any event in almost a year, so this felt great."
George BellshawVerified account @BellshawGeorge 2h2 hours ago
Djokovic: 'Life throws challenges at you when you least expect it. But, you know, that's our task as people to evolve and especially as athletes at this level, trying to understand, you know, what it takes to make that final step.'
.
"I was in a hole and I felt even in that first set I was maybe slightly better and unfortunately lost it towards the end," Cilic said. "I had a lot of break points throughout the [first] set and I felt that with my game, I was feeling really, really good, I was hitting the ball great. And I felt that when I connected and served well, I thought I was going to get a really good chance."
."[I'm] very delighted. Extremely happy for today’s win and also throughout the week, I was playing great tennis," Cilic said. "It was extremely tough today. I had to wait almost until the last game to get that first and crucial break… Novak was playing great tennis. It was definitely a joy to be a part of this final and to lift this trophy again."
............
"He deserved to win," Djokovic said. "It's a tough loss for me today, obviously. But I have to see it from a positive side. I haven't played a final at any event in almost a year, so this felt great."
George BellshawVerified account @BellshawGeorge 2h2 hours ago
Djokovic: 'Life throws challenges at you when you least expect it. But, you know, that's our task as people to evolve and especially as athletes at this level, trying to understand, you know, what it takes to make that final step.'
.
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Raonic 3-9 versus Murray compared to Cilic 3-12, yea I think Raonic could beat him in a Masters final. He beat him in Indian Wells and almost got Murray in 2016 WTF SF where he took Murray 7-6 in the 3rd. Pretty close to getting to his 1st WTF final. When has Cilic ever even gotten out of the RR matches there?
I'm not getting into 2016 versus 2017/2018 in regards to weakness because it's ridiculous at this point. The point being made is removing an in form Djokovic and Murray from Slam draws allowed Cilic the success at the Slam level he enjoyed in the last year. Cilic got destroyed in USO 2015 by Djokovic and got handled easily in straight sets in Wimby 2015, 4, 4, 4. He did play a brilliant match against Djokovic in 2014 Wimbledon and pushed him to 5 but I am talking about his recent success in Slams. In 2015, Djokovic crushed him which is why he wasn't getting farther in the Slams draws which was not a problem in that last year.
The subject is about who can beat Federer. Cilic beating Murray in 2009 and injured Nadal is irrelevant. Cilic has only beaten Federer once in his career and has a tendency to choke or get overwhelmed by the occasion. My belief is an in form Raonic is less likely to do that versus Federer and has beaten him more. Cilic has been playing for 11 years and has beaten Federer once and Raonic has been playing 7 years and has beaten him 3 times, and pushed him hard on all surfaces. Until Cilic can actually step up and beat Federer again, I won't see him beating Federer at Wimbledon in his playhouse. In my opinion, he seems to have not gotten over the loss of 2016, and 2017 was disastrous so no, I simply don't see him defeating Federer this year either.
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cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
Odds can be a popularity contest and that would be a fine example of it.
Odds aren't a popularity contest! It's big money and they go with the players who have won the title in the past and who look to be in the best form. Despite Cilic's great form, he's only won one slam and no Wimbledon titles. He was in great form last year at Wimbledon too and look what happened! It's basically a field of numskulls where you have to go with proven winners of the past first if they're in decent form.
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Deleted member 512391
Guest
I watched only the second set and it tells me pretty much everything about Novak's current state, his mind in particular. Just like at Roland Garros, his mental strength let him down, when he had a chance to close the match. Not talking about the match point (Cilic saved it like a boss), but that double fault in a tie-break clearly shows that he's a shadow of himself when it comes to champion's mentality.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
It's the new marriage/wife. It's giving him some confidence. She's actually quite nice looking. Supposedly educated/ smart too.
The Green Mile
Bionic Poster
Damn, some scoreline. How close did Novak get to winning?
Nevermind, just saw Marin saved a MP? I think Novak only has two other matches where he has failed to convert on his own MP.
Nevermind, just saw Marin saved a MP? I think Novak only has two other matches where he has failed to convert on his own MP.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
You're even rougher than I normally am when it comes to Novak!
He looked pretty good today. Losing to his lapdog Cilic isn't necessarily the biggest morale booster but he really played quite well overall. I don't think he'll win Wimbledon unless he has a Nadal 2017 USO type draw but we'll see.
Im(moral) Winner
G.O.A.T.
One MP on Marin's serve and was 4-1 on the TB.
abmk
Bionic Poster
am talking about a Masters final ...a final being different from the matches before...
even in a 500 final, Queens 2016, Raonic was up a set and break vs Muray , but ended up getting broken multiple times after that and lost.
and you think Raonic would have decent shot vs Djoko of Wim 15 QF or USO 15 SF ? LOL. He has a grand total of 1 set in 8 matches vs Djokovic
and Djoko handled Raonic fairly comfortably in AO 15 QF.
15 was tougher with Djokovic in the way no doubt. But it was 2016 where Raonic made SF+F, so am talking about 2016 vs 2017/18.
in 2015, Raonic lost to Djoko in AO 15 QF in straights, to Nick in 4 sets at Wim and to Lopez in straight sets.
And if you can't see Cilic's improved mentality in recent times (in particular in the slams) that's your problem. he still has some problems, no doubt...but he's clearly better than before.
was down a break in the 2nd set vs nadal in AO 18, came back roaring with a double break. lost 3rd set TB with some untimely UEs, but came back roaring with a break in the 4th set ...this was before Nadal got injured.
was clutch vs federer in the 2nd set to save BPs in 3 separate games in set 2 and took it to him in the TB ...just like he did in today's TB vs Djoko.
was down a break in the 4th set. was down BP for a double break ...a virtual MP ....saved it and then came back to break federer twice.
correction : subject is about who has a better chance to beat Federer at Wimbledon, a slam.
If we were talking about who'd have a better chance to beat Fed at say Brisbane or Paris , the answer would be Raonic. but that's not the point of this conversation.
Cilic has done considerably better vs Fed in slams than Raonic has.
I mentioned the wins over Murray&Nadal to show his Cilic's better performance in slams in general.
if its injured Nadal in AO 18, then its injured Fed for Raonic in Wim 16 as well. Federer fell and got injured in the 5th set, just in case you need a reminder.
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Deleted member 512391
Guest
It's not about losing, imo. It's about the way he lost and we've already seen a similar pattern at the FO - can't close the match/set when he has an opportunity and it's all about his head. Honestly, I don't see any improvement since the FO and of course he isn't going to win Wimbledon, he still lacks that killer instinct.You're even rougher than I normally am when it comes to Novak!
Also, I still haven't seen him beating an elite opponent recently, his draw was quite easy and he still couldn't finish the job against a guy he owns.
cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
LOL. You are all over the place as usual so let me cut this short. Raonic gets destroyed by Djokovic because it's a terrible matchup for him but that has nothing to do with the topic. The point made was why Cilic had so much success in the Slams in the last year and not who got beaten worse by Djokovic. Irrelevant.
This is not even a question about who is better because I don't think Raonic could ever give a performance like Cilic did the last two rounds of 2014 USO. It's about who can beat Federer at Wimbledon and who can't. Federer injured himself in 2016 but Raonic had to close the match and he did. Cilic was up 2 sets to love and choked away the match in epic fashion. He then got destroyed last year and humiliated. Pushing Federer to 5 in Australia is one thing and beating him on Centre Court is another. Cilic had two chances to do it and couldn't do it either time. Why am I supposed to bank on a guy who has only one win over Federer in his entire career and who chokes? I'm not. I would take an in form Raonic at Wimbledon versus Federer over Cilic. The end.
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abmk
Bionic Poster
lol, no answer to the points......
and yes, part of why Cilic has had so much success in the slams in the last year is his improved mentality --- something which you are blind to (yes, no 2015 Djokovic either, but same applied for Raonic in SF+F in 2016) ...but all you can see in your argument is Djokovic when you want ...All of a sudden, when it turns against Raonic - in your argument, you try to sidetracking.
yeah, because Federer was supremely clutch in the Cilic match and choked away the 4th set badly in the Raonic match+got injured in the 5th set ....something you seem to completely ignore and want to continue ignore because it doesn't suit you.
Like I said, if you swap the QF/SF versions of fed in Wim 16, Cilic wins and Raonic loses. you want to completely ignore that and be as blind as a bat, that's your problem.In the other 2 "chances" for Raonic at Wimbledon , he's got beaten convincingly by Fed.
And AO 2018 final is relevant to some extent atleast , because its a slam final, FFS.
And it was last 3 rounds of USO 2014 btw. Cilic destroyed Berdych in the QF of USO 2014.
you don't want to take a guy who beat Fed in straight sets (in USO 14) & took him to 5 sets in AO 18 final, but want to take a guy who didn't win a single set vs Federer in 3 other slam meetings ( AO 13, Wim 14, Wim 17) and benefitted big time by Fed's choking+injury (granted Raonic was clutch) ? yeah, ok.
NoleFam
Bionic Poster
It's not sidetracking. What you were talking about was irrelevant and it's not just about Djokovic. It's about Djokovic and Murray, the #1 and #2 of 2015 and 2016, being removed from the equation which made Cilic's life a lot easier. That's the point. Who got killed worse by Djokovic has nothing to do with anything.
Cilic choked. Federer got a lot of help. He was up two sets to love, had match points in the 4th and couldn't close it in the 4th set tiebreak. It was more than Federer being clutch.
Except Cilic didn't win even though he had a much larger lead. Totally subjective to say who would win and who would lose. Raonic closed it and he didn't. He actually finished the job on Centre Court when Cilic failed so yea I would take him over Cilic. I still don't think he mentally has what it takes to beat Federer at Wimbledon but that's me.
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cc0509
Talk Tennis Guru
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
Do you mean he's coming like this?
Not quite...
abmk
Bionic Poster
pretty sure he'd rather face Murray in a slam than Federer or Nadal.
Already talked about Djokovic.
what on earth are you on about ?
Cilic wasn't up a break in the 4th set at 4-3, nor was he serving for it at 6-5.
Cilic had one MP at 4-5,30-40 Federer...that federer saved with a good 2nd serve (forced error)
He had another MP at 5-6, 30-40 Federer ....that federer saved with an ace
3rd MP at 6-7 in the breaker ...this was an UE in the 2nd serve return.
http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20160706-M-Wimbledon-QF-Marin_Cilic-Roger_Federer.html
Federer faced 3 BPs at 3 all in the 3rd set, out of which he saved 2 with forcing errors. 1 was a UE from Cilic.
The 4th set TB was such a roller-coaster, but Federer pulled it out.
you've got it completely wrong re: Wim 16 QF ...imagined that loss from Cilic to be a massive choke, when it wasn't a massive one at all. It had a lot to do with federer being ridiculously clutch in that QF.
Edit : Contrast to the help Raonic got from Fed in the SF : up 5-6,40-0, Fed DFs twice in a row. should've easily closed it out and taken it to a breaker. And obviously got injured in the 5th set.
the break in the 1st set : fed is up 30-0, 2 UEs and DF on BP and gets broken.
http://www.tennisabstract.com/charting/20160708-M-Wimbledon-SF-Milos_Raonic-Roger_Federer.html
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NoleFam
Bionic Poster
Already been corrected soon as it was posted so you wasted your time. He had two match points on Federer's serve and not served for it, but two of them were very doable and he didn't get it done.
Cilic did choke and Federer was clutch in key moments. He still had help from Cilic to get back in the match. That would be the general consensus.
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
they won't meet until the 2nd week, a bit earlier in the 2nd week if novak ends up on fed's side. i s2g the damn draw needs to come out so i can just mentally prepare myself
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
The Djokovic fans were understandably desperate for him to win a title since he's had such a lousy two years. But they should have realized the caliber of his opponents leading up the final were pathetic. Millman? Mannarino? Yet endless people here started chiming in, "Nole's the favorite for Wimbledon."
He did very well to reach the final of Queen's, but unless the entire draw collapses and he meets someone like David Ferrer in the final, he is not ready to win a major, emotionally or physically.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Congrats to Cilic on winning his 2nd title at Queen's and becoming 1 of only 2 active players to win multiple titles there (the other being Murray of course). It is particularly satisfying given the circumstances in which he won the last one back in 2012 when his opponent Nalbandian got defaulted for accidentally kicking and injuring a linesman. This time there was no controversy attached to his win. It is also his 18th title, 2nd at 500 level and, surprisingly given all the finals he has played on it, only his 2nd title on grass!
For Djokovic, making only his 2nd final run at Queen's exactly 10 years after playing the 1st (lost to Nadal), this has got to hurt particularly after holding a championship point in the 2nd set and then going 4-1 up in the tie-breaker. It was so nearly in his grasp and he let it slip. But making his first final in almost a year has got to be encouraging and it will be intriguing to see how he can progress from that to making another title run at Wimbledon.
For Djokovic, making only his 2nd final run at Queen's exactly 10 years after playing the 1st (lost to Nadal), this has got to hurt particularly after holding a championship point in the 2nd set and then going 4-1 up in the tie-breaker. It was so nearly in his grasp and he let it slip. But making his first final in almost a year has got to be encouraging and it will be intriguing to see how he can progress from that to making another title run at Wimbledon.
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Deleted member 756486
Guest
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
abmk
Bionic Poster
the fact that you got it so wrong in the 1st place says it all.
yes, Cilic should've gotten the return in the TB back in atleast.....
nothing compared to the help Federer gave Raonic in the SF ..2 UEs from 30-0 and a DF to get broken in the 1st set.
back to back DFs from 40-0 at 5-6, 40-0...........should've easily gone to a TB....
If fed was as gifting vs Cilic as he was vs Raonic, Cilic would've won....its obvious.
If he was as clutch as he was vs Cilic (&did not get injured), fed would've won vs Raonic
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
He played Cilic, who is by all means a top player on grass, very very close and from the stats they're almost completely even. I think his performance here is his best in a long, long time and while I don't think he's the favorite for Wimbledon either, I think he could well be the favorite for the US Open if he continues to improve.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
icedevil0289
G.O.A.T.
Me too.
initial announcement of a draw is always fun. i'll say one thing if all the heavy hitters and novak are on fed's side....i'm citing conspiracy
junior74
Bionic Poster
Cilic was the better player from the baseline. That's even more worrying, I would assume
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Deleted member 77403
Guest
I will never believe in some watered down version that a hater created for him.
I only believe in Earth's Mightiest Warrior. Ultron is an emotionless machine, he doesn't roar like a warrior, which is what you saw Djokovic do when he went to war against the Big Four, Stanimal and Del Potro.
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
Yeah. Djokovic was definitely very solid and he had some outrageous points on defense, but he was too passive a lot of the time, and I think that's where the confidence comes in. Cilic won a massive% of his first serve points, even though Djokovic was making a lot of returns. If Djokovic had been more agressive, he could've played into Cilic weakness rather than letting him play on his strenghts.Cilic was the better player from the baseline. That's even more worrying, I would assume
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Deleted member 756486
Guest
Wait, who created the name “Ultron”? I always thought it was this badass nickname for Novak..
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Fed lost the final at Halle twice, but went on to win Wimbledon. Of course he wasn't almost 37 years old when those finals were played.
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Deleted member 756486
Guest
Cilic will choke in a final against Fed. Needs Fed to lose early.
junior74
Bionic Poster
Absolutely. Against Cilic, if you're not aggressive, he takes control of the rallies. Thought he played a very fine match
