Question about playing WITH self-rated partner

Ziatennis89

New User
If I am partnered with someone who is self-rated because their previous NTRP rating expired and it is their second match, will a bad loss impact MY computer rating?

I played this past weekend with someone who hasn’t played in a USTA league in 5 years, so her computer rating had expired and she had to self-rate. Because I was playing with her in just her second match this season, she was still a bit shaky and we ended up losing pretty badly. I’m just wondering if this loss will affect my rating negatively? FYI: We were playing against two players with C ratings.

Any insight is appreciated. Thank you!
 

5sets

Hall of Fame
Here’s some insight. You both lost as a team. Don’t run up in here like you didn’t make any errors and it was all your “shaky” partners fault.
 

nyta2

Legend
If I am partnered with someone who is self-rated because their previous NTRP rating expired and it is their second match, will a bad loss impact MY computer rating?

I played this past weekend with someone who hasn’t played in a USTA league in 5 years, so her computer rating had expired and she had to self-rate. Because I was playing with her in just her second match this season, she was still a bit shaky and we ended up losing pretty badly. I’m just wondering if this loss will affect my rating negatively? FYI: We were playing against two players with C ratings.

Any insight is appreciated. Thank you!
play enough (5?) matches with other partners, this match won't matter
if your partner is really bad, you may find that will help your ntrp (i find that playing with players with low ratings relative to my opponents, presume we do better than expected, regardless of W/L, can help increase my rating - eg since my rating is higher, it looks like i'm "carrying" the team)
you didn't mention what level the opponents were... if you were playing opponents 2 levels above you, and you lost say, 2,2... your rating might go UP
the elo calc is just an algo... so if the only unknown is your partner, it will solve for that (kinda like A+?+C+D=X)

like everyone said, ratings don't matter, but despite knowing that, like you, i still peek at them regularly :p
 

Ziatennis89

New User
Blaming your partner for a loss and asking if your USTA rating is dropping in your first TT post. A two for one post! Well done!

You're gonna fit in here perfectly. :rolleyes:
At no point did I “blame” our loss on my partner, and I didn’t come here to complain about her either. That’s not the point of my question. Doubles is a team sport, we both contributed to our loss. As anyone who plays doubles regularly knows, one person’s mistakes can easily cause the other person to make mistakes as well, especially if you’re playing with someone you’ve never played with before whose game you’re not familiar with. On the flip side, those who play doubles will ALSO know that one player cannot carry a team and win games entirely on their own. It’s a team sport—goes both ways!

Sorry, I didn’t know I needed to provide a full overview and analysis of how I played when kindly and politely asking a very specific question about how ratings work.
 

Ziatennis89

New User
Here’s some insight. You both lost as a team. Don’t run up in here like you didn’t make any errors and it was all your “shaky” partners

We sure did both lose as a team. I obviously made errors lol — we only won one game the entire match! My partner WAS shaky and double-faulted through nearly every service game. AND I made a ton of mistakes making dumb decisions trying to compensate for lost points/games. We didn’t communicate or strategize well as a team. Multiple things can be true at once.
 

g4driver

Legend
At no point did I “blame” our loss on my partner, and I didn’t come here to complain about her either.
Yes you did blame her. "She was still a bit shaky..."

Your words not mine.

I played this past weekend with someone who hasn’t played in a USTA league in 5 years, so her computer rating had expired and she had to self-rate. Because I was playing with her in just her second match this season, she was still a bit shaky and we ended up losing pretty badly.
 

Ziatennis89

New User
play enough (5?) matches with other partners, this match won't matter
if your partner is really bad, you may find that will help your ntrp (i find that playing with players with low ratings relative to my opponents, presume we do better than expected, regardless of W/L, can help increase my rating - eg since my rating is higher, it looks like i'm "carrying" the team)
you didn't mention what level the opponents were... if you were playing opponents 2 levels above you, and you lost say, 2,2... your rating might go UP
the elo calc is just an algo... so if the only unknown is your partner, it will solve for that (kinda like A+?+C+D=X)

like everyone said, ratings don't matter, but despite knowing that, like you, i still peek at them regularly :p
Thank you for this kind reply! We were playing a 4.5 match against 4.5-rated opponents.
 

Ziatennis89

New User
Yes you did blame her. "She was still a bit shaky..."

Your words not mine.
Lol, she WAS still a bit shaky. As I said above, she double-faulted through nearly every service game. Dumped easy volleys into the net on game points. I ALSO made mistakes. We communicated poorly. If you really are an experienced player, you would be lying to yourself if you never rightly felt that you had lost a match because of a partner’s excessive mistakes. It does happen. Don’t act so holier than thou lol
 

5sets

Hall of Fame
At no point did I “blame” our loss on my partner, and I didn’t come here to complain about her either. That’s not the point of my question. Doubles is a team sport, we both contributed to our loss. As anyone who plays doubles regularly knows, one person’s mistakes can easily cause the other person to make mistakes as well, especially if you’re playing with someone you’ve never played with before whose game you’re not familiar with. On the flip side, those who play doubles will ALSO know that one player cannot carry a team and win games entirely on their own. It’s a team sport—goes both ways!

Sorry, I didn’t know I needed to provide a full overview and analysis of how I played when kindly and politely asking a very specific question about how ratings work.
You kind of did though. You basically could just cut out most of your second paragraph in your original post. Just sayin’
 

g4driver

Legend
@Ziatennis89

You are an experienced and good player otherwise you wouldn't be playing 4.5.. My post may have come off snarky or mean spirited but that wasn't the intent. While it isn't optimal to play with anyone you've never played with, this is one match and you are already C or A rated otherwise you would have mentioned it.

This match is a momentariy blip and whether your rating dropped or didn't move, your going to be fine. My apologies if I came across as snarky, rude or mean spirited. But your gonna just fine at 4.5

Go have fun. I personally find ignoring the rating noise makes tennis much more enjoyable.. life is short, so my .02 is to ignore the noise, play the best you can and have fun. Cheers!
 

Ziatennis89

New User
You kind of did though. You basically could just cut out most of your second paragraph in your original post. Just sayin’
My deepest apologies for not providing a full context and analysis of our match. Like I said, multiple things can be true at once. I feel my partner did not play well, and this became a self-perpetuating situation in which I also played poorly while attempting to compensate. I feel this is a pretty common situation in doubles. If my partner had not struggled so much to hold serve or close points, I would not have taken risks or made bad decisions to compensate. That is factual. I’m not relieving myself from responsibility, but if you think one partner in a 4.5 match can win points all by themselves, that’s ridiculous.

Regardless, the fact remains that I came here to kindly ask a specific question about ratings. Instead, I’m now having to defend myself on something unrelated to the question I actually asked.
 

g4driver

Legend
@Ziatennis89

Unless you know the exact DNRTP of all 4 players, including the self-rated player, who would have something generated after her first match, it will be impossible to solve the answer.

Example:

Your two opponents could been rated 4.48 and 4.49, and you could be a 4.10 and your partner a 4.20 after her first match.. this is an example only. I am not guessing
at your rating at all.

If your opponents were at the top of the 4.5 level and barely below the 5.0 Threshold or even better and were both 4.5A players who had appealed down in 2022, perhaps your rating doesn't move at all, as the 0&1 score was "expected" by the USTA algorithm

Does that make sense?
 

Ziatennis89

New User
@Ziatennis89

You are an experienced and good player otherwise you wouldn't be playing 4.5.. My post may have come off snarky or mean spirited but that wasn't the intent. While it isn't optimal to play with anyone you've never played with, this is one match and you are already C or A rated otherwise you would have mentioned it.

This match is a momentariy blip and whether your rating dropped or didn't move, your going to be fine. My apologies if I came across as snarky, rude or mean spirited. But your gonna just fine at 4.5

Go have fun. I personally find ignoring the rating noise makes tennis much more enjoyable.. life is short, so my .02 is to ignore the noise, play the best you can and have fun. Cheers!
I appreciate this message and apologize also for my snark in response.

I know I shouldn’t care so much about ratings, but it’s probably the best “official” indicator we have in adult leagues of skill level and improvement. In that way, they do matter at least a little bit to me.
 

5sets

Hall of Fame
My deepest apologies for not providing a full context and analysis of our match. Like I said, multiple things can be true at once. I feel my partner did not play well, and this became a self-perpetuating situation in which I also played poorly while attempting to compensate. I feel this is a pretty common situation in doubles. If my partner had not struggled so much to hold serve or close points, I would not have taken risks or made bad decisions to compensate. That is factual. I’m not relieving myself from responsibility, but if you think one partner in a 4.5 match can win points all by themselves, that’s ridiculous.

Regardless, the fact remains that I came here to kindly ask a specific question about ratings. Instead, I’m now having to defend myself on something unrelated to the question I actually asked.
Apology accepted. However I believe you came here for two reasons.
1) Ask a specific rating question
2) Make excuses for a loss by dumping it on your partner to make yourself feel better. Would she be happy with your “ratings specific inquiry?”
 

Ziatennis89

New User
Apology accepted. However I believe you came here for two reasons.
1) Ask a specific rating question
2) Make excuses for a loss by dumping it on your partner to make yourself feel better. Would she be happy with your “ratings specific inquiry?”

I can see why you’d make that assumption regarding your second point, but my main reason for providing that information was to actually provide context for my partner’s mistakes. As in, she is probably a much stronger player than what her recent match performance would suggest. It was her first USTA match in several years, so understandably she was a bit shaky. I believe with some more match practice, she’d be playing way better than she did in our last match. I don’t know why she would have any issues with me being concerned about my specific rating, especially since it seems self-rated players have huge sways up and down in their ratings in the beginning until they have more matches under their belt.
 

g4driver

Legend
This forum is nicer with emojis, a sense of humor and not taking ourselves too seriously. No apology necessary! This forum was far better with Tapatalk but that is an another battle.

I know I have made posts I regret. We're all human. . And yep I have ranted and posted while "hangry"

Thankfully I not a Gemstone but yes I do find Danny McBride's humor both brilliant and hilarious

 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
If I am partnered with someone who is self-rated because their previous NTRP rating expired and it is their second match, will a bad loss impact MY computer rating?

I played this past weekend with someone who hasn’t played in a USTA league in 5 years, so her computer rating had expired and she had to self-rate. Because I was playing with her in just her second match this season, she was still a bit shaky and we ended up losing pretty badly. I’m just wondering if this loss will affect my rating negatively? FYI: We were playing against two players with C ratings.

Any insight is appreciated. Thank you!
The answer to your actual question is no, if your partner is an S-rate in her second match, the match will only serve to set her rating and will not affect yours at all.
 

g4driver

Legend
The answer to your actual question is no, if your partner is an S-rate in her second match, the match will only serve to set her rating and will not affect yours at all.
Isn't the self raters players rating set after one match ? Is this a change ?

are you stating the first match of a S rated player does nothing for a S player or does it take two matches to set a rating for a self rated player.
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Isn't the self raters players rating set after one match ? Is this a change ?

are you stating the first match of a S rated player does nothing for a S player or does it take two matches to set a rating for a self rated player.
I believe that the S-rating get a DNTRP after the third match, but @schmke can confirm that. For sure, though, at least the first two are just used to set the S-rate's match rating.
 

g4driver

Legend
I thought an S rated players second match did affect others . Not that it matters to me . The process isn't something I try to manipulate.
 

esgee48

G.O.A.T.
S ratings don’t get a public DNTRP until after their 3rd match is played. I believe an unpublished DNTRP is kept internally during that time. Since the S rate is unknown, any loss cannot be attributed only to you. I think it has no effect on you win or loss until they have a DNTRP.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
This is a legit question, especially if you are trying to get bumped to 5.0 this season. The answer is: it’s complicated. Matches with or against S rated players do not generate a rating until later on in the year when the S rated player has played enough matches to generate a dynamic rating. At that point a rating will be retroactively assigned for this match, and it will depend on how that player did in her other matches.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
If I am partnered with someone who is self-rated because their previous NTRP rating expired and it is their second match, will a bad loss impact MY computer rating?

I played this past weekend with someone who hasn’t played in a USTA league in 5 years, so her computer rating had expired and she had to self-rate. Because I was playing with her in just her second match this season, she was still a bit shaky and we ended up losing pretty badly. I’m just wondering if this loss will affect my rating negatively? FYI: We were playing against two players with C ratings.

Any insight is appreciated. Thank you!

Until your partner has a few matches to base a year end rating on, nothing really happens in your dynamic rating during a season I believe. That is to say, that one match isn't going to ruin your season if you do well in everything else. So as others mentioned, don't worry too much about that one match. Just continue to do well and it all levels out.
 

loveallcats

Rookie
This is a legit question, especially if you are trying to get bumped to 5.0 this season. The answer is: it’s complicated. Matches with or against S rated players do not generate a rating until later on in the year when the S rated player has played enough matches to generate a dynamic rating. At that point a rating will be retroactively assigned for this match, and it will depend on how that player did in her other matches.

Do they use the player's year end dynamic rating to go back and re-rate the initial 3 matches played before DNTRP is generated?
Or do they use the average of the first 3 matches to go back and adjust the other C rated players' ratings?
 

schmke

Legend
Do they use the player's year end dynamic rating to go back and re-rate the initial 3 matches played before DNTRP is generated?
Or do they use the average of the first 3 matches to go back and adjust the other C rated players' ratings?
First, this only happens at year-end, not just later in the year. Unlike UTR and perhaps others, the dynamic rating doesn't go back and recalculate prior matches based on where opponents are now. This makes it more stable and avoids the fluctuations that can occur with UTR, but does mean a player doesn't get "credit" for these matches against/with self-rates before they establish a rating.

I don't recall what I've found documented about the process at year-end for players who play self-rates, but I believe they do something to the effect of using where a self-rate ended up to go back and calculate the matches for their opponents. So, if you play with a self-rated partner in their first few matches an do well, and they don't do so great later in the year with other partners or in singles, that may benefit your rating at year-end as the algorithm will see that you doing well as a pair may have been more to do with you than the self-rate. It can go the other way of course too.
 

J B

Semi-Pro
Stop caring about your "record" and "raiting", those numbers only matter in your head and have no value to anyone else.

Enjoy playing tennis, and don't take rec level competition so cereal.
In some areas the 55 year old captains of the 4.0+ team won’t accept a new player based on record. Including mixed doubles. They don’t care you can blow them off the court they see you as the reason you lost in an 8.0 mixed match. Not that your self rated partner hasn’t played in 8 years and 3 kids but had to rate themselves based on previous experience
 

loveallcats

Rookie
First, this only happens at year-end, not just later in the year. Unlike UTR and perhaps others, the dynamic rating doesn't go back and recalculate prior matches based on where opponents are now. This makes it more stable and avoids the fluctuations that can occur with UTR, but does mean a player doesn't get "credit" for these matches against/with self-rates before they establish a rating.

I don't recall what I've found documented about the process at year-end for players who play self-rates, but I believe they do something to the effect of using where a self-rate ended up to go back and calculate the matches for their opponents. So, if you play with a self-rated partner in their first few matches an do well, and they don't do so great later in the year with other partners or in singles, that may benefit your rating at year-end as the algorithm will see that you doing well as a pair may have been more to do with you than the self-rate. It can go the other way of course

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
 
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