Question about Topspin serve

Sjohn

New User
I've been serving a flat serve all my life and decided it's about time to develop a topspin second serve to raise my 2nd serve percentage. I figured that I'll take it step my step and first learn a topspin service before moving onto a kick serve.

When I serve a flat serve while in the throphy position my hitting hand's palm points towards me. When I'm trying to hit a topspin serve with an eastern backhand grip I noticed that my palm is pointing up towards the sky and my wrist is cocked back. My question is if this is correct for hitting a topspin serve since I feel it can brush the ball better. For the toss, I toss the ball a bit closer to me then my flat serve but would still touch the green if I didn't catch it. The swing path for my topspin serve finishes with my hitting wrist looking like I'm checking my watch but I am still unsure if my swing path is correct?

Any input would be greatly appreciated :mrgreen:

John
 
Sorry to interrupt here..but since i have the same question, there's no need to start a new thread. i started tennis a year ago, and I started to have a good flat first serv that goes in and i already have the correct service motion and same ball toss position. The problem is i can't hit 2nd serv in the perfect way. what i mean is i just toss the ball up and push the ball accross the net with my racquet, where the ball usually land short with no power, slice, spin, at all.

questions:

1) do i need the same service motion as i use in the 1st serv ?

2) how to hit the ball with power and spin? i know for 2nd serv toss the ball closer to body. but how the racquet face hit the ball to put the spin?

advice needed here...
 
Sjohn said:
I just meant a topspin serve that give the ball a 6'oclock- 12'oclock spin on the ball.
A Topspin serve IS a Kick serve; they're the SAME thing — just different names.

A Topspin/Kick serve is ideally supposed to be struck from 6-12 o'clock (of course the odds of imparting spin that is "perfectly" rotating from the 6-12 o'clock path is very slim [since that happens to be an "exact" point path] because there are other infinite variables of rotational paths - i.e., one atomic particle degree clockwise from 6-12 o'clock, 6.00002-12.00002 o'clock etc. etc. etc.).

So what are you talking about?

You said: "I just meant a topspin serve that give the ball a 6'oclock- 12'oclock spin on the ball."

After what I have elaborated, what do you make of all of this?

Did you orignally think that a Topspin/Kick serve is a "Twist" serve?

If so, then, that is wrong. A Topspin/Kick serve is a serve ideally struck from 6-12 o'clock, and a Twist (for a righthander) is struck from 7-1 o'clock or 8-2 o'clock. Your posts can cause a lot of confusion to many readers. Please clarify.
 
Sjohn said:
When I serve a flat serve while in the throphy position my hitting hand's palm points towards me. When I'm trying to hit a topspin serve with an eastern backhand grip I noticed that my palm is pointing up towards the sky and my wrist is cocked back. My question is if this is correct for hitting a topspin serve since I feel it can brush the ball better.

I don't think it matter too much where your palm is pointing in the trophy position. But I would try to have almost the same stance for all my serve, so my opponent cannot read my serve too easily. What matter are your forward swing and where you start your forward swing.

Sjohn said:
For the toss, I toss the ball a bit closer to me then my flat serve but would still touch the green if I didn't catch it. The swing path for my topspin serve finishes with my hitting wrist looking like I'm checking my watch but I am still unsure if my swing path is correct?

You are right. Topspin serve usually finish on the same side with palm pointing out and racket pointing down.
 
Topspin is different from kick. Topspin bounces high, but along the flight path.

Kick is the same thing as a "Twist". It bounces high and at an angle from the flight path.
 
TennisAsAlways said:
Did you orignally think that a Topspin/Kick serve is a "Twist" serve?

I had a misunderstanding between a Kick serve and an "American twist serve" sorry if my mixed up the terms. Anyways I just trying to get a 2nd serve with some topspin thats all I ask.

and Thank you! Mucat for your 2 Cents :)
 
blue03 said:
Sorry to interrupt here..but since i have the same question, there's no need to start a new thread. i started tennis a year ago, and I started to have a good flat first serv that goes in and i already have the correct service motion and same ball toss position. The problem is i can't hit 2nd serv in the perfect way. what i mean is i just toss the ball up and push the ball accross the net with my racquet, where the ball usually land short with no power, slice, spin, at all.

questions:

1) do i need the same service motion as i use in the 1st serv ?

2) how to hit the ball with power and spin? i know for 2nd serv toss the ball closer to body. but how the racquet face hit the ball to put the spin?

advice needed here...
sjohn and blue03

1 - Different ball-toss but same racquet-head motion/speed.

2 - See #1 above.

For me, I can get decent slice/topspin using the same action and bringing my racquet-head over the top as a 1st serve.
* I just toss the ball more infront of me (clock-face: 12-1 o'clock) and more over my head (if the ball dropped, it'd hit me on my forehead).
* I grip my racquet with an Eastern-Backhand grip and about 3/4" higher up the handle than for normal
* brush the ball in an upwards|sideways motion (as if you were using your racquet head as a windshield-wiper)

This works for me - most of my serves like this have a combination of slice/topspin that is effective to the deuce-court, but can be a bit predictable when they go down the middle of the 'T' on the advantage-court...

I havent perfected the basic topspin serve yet, nor have I managed to get it to kick off the court in the advtange-court (Federer has been doing this a lot this year) to a right-hander...however, it's helped cut down my double-faults massively.
 
Freedom said:
Topspin is different from kick. Topspin bounces high, but along the flight path.

Kick is the same thing as a "Twist". It bounces high and at an angle from the flight path.
That's what causes A LOT of confusion when it comes to tennis terminology. Of course "some" people will use the term "Kick Serve" to describe a "Twist". I know about that fact but just do not advocate the use of terms that I feel can cause confusion, especially to newbies.

Look up "Kick Serve"and some "web" definitions will describe it as a "Twist Serve". Look at the web definition here:

Definitions of Kick Serve on the Web:

Serve in which the racquet brushes the ball from about 8'oclock to 1'oclock (midway between a topspin and slice serve)

A twist serve (or American twist) is a type of serve in tennis. It is also called a kick serve.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ck+Serve&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title


Now "TECHICALLY" that is not the best use of the term "Kick". "Kick" simply means to jump up/bounce up. For instance, when commentators describe Rafael Nadal's FH groundstrokes, they describe that it "kicks" up high — meaning that it jumps up high. So what I am getting at is: kick DOESN'T mean "jump while spinning away from an opponent!" It simply means "bounce up, 'noticeably high' (the degree of being "high" is subjective upon each individual, but I think in most cases, a bounce at or above one's torso level can be agreed upon as being "high"). That is why using the term "Kick Serve" interchangeably with "Twist serve/American Twist serve" is "TECHNICALLY" not the most accurate way to be using terms.

Of course I am not saying that you are wrong for referring to a "Kick" as a "Twist", because this "misconception/ill-informed use of the terminology" is common among the tennis community, therefore "some" people should know what you are referring to when you use that word. Of course, when getting into details, technical, or when distiguishing one type of serve from another, that is when one should realize how the use of such an "inaccurate" term is unsuitable.

In conclusion, it is better to adapt to the "more precise" terminology. A "Topspin" is the same as a "Kick/Kicker". A "Twist/American Twist" is different than a "Topspin/Kick/Kicker".

Perhaps the reason why it has been accepted upon, — using the term "Kick" to describe a "Twist" — is because "technically", the odds of imparting a "true" 100% topspin from 6-12 o'clock is "close-to" zero (it would NOT be right to say that it isn't possible! The variable of getting a PERFECT spin from 6-12 o'clock IS there, therefore it IS possible. I OFTEN times come across people saying that it CANNOT happen, all of the time. It IS wrong to say that it CANNOT happen. It CAN HAPPEN! It's just not very likely to happen due to the probability of most of the other variables being "off" from the EXACT 6-12 o'clock rotation. ). Still, however, I don't see that that should be the way to go.

The thing is, when one is attempting to execute a "Topspin/Kick" serve, they should be attempting to attain spin from 6-12 o'clock anyways, and so it is the fact of getting the spin "close-to" 6-12 o'clock that should determine the term used in describing the serve being attempted. After an actual serve has occurred, I doubt that one could "precisely" tell whether or not the spin on the ball was "exactly" from 6-12 o'clock (of if course, for example, if there were to be some very noticeable side spin imparted, one can safely say that it was not a "true" topspin ball), unless they are superhuman and can make micro-measurements be eye! So when a serve is to be attempted, one should use the appropriate term to describe the serve that they would "ideally" want to execute.
 
American Twist vs. Kick

TennisAsAlways said:
A Topspin serve IS a Kick serve; they're the SAME thing — just different names.

A Topspin/Kick serve is ideally supposed to be struck from 6-12 o'clock (of course the odds of imparting spin that is "perfectly" rotating from the 6-12 o'clock path is very slim [since that happens to be an "exact" point path] because there are other infinite variables of rotational paths - i.e., one atomic particle degree clockwise from 6-12 o'clock, 6.00002-12.00002 o'clock etc. etc. etc.).

So what are you talking about?

You said: "I just meant a topspin serve that give the ball a 6'oclock- 12'oclock spin on the ball."

After what I have elaborated, what do you make of all of this?

Did you orignally think that a Topspin/Kick serve is a "Twist" serve?

If so, then, that is wrong. A Topspin/Kick serve is a serve ideally struck from 6-12 o'clock, and a Twist (for a righthander) is struck from 7-1 o'clock or 8-2 o'clock. Your posts can cause a lot of confusion to many readers. Please clarify.
Make sure you add a very important part of kick vs. American twist which is where would the ball land if serving to the add court if you let the ball drop (where in relationship to the baseline and server)?
 
I think kick serve and twist serve originally means the same thing, then people get confuse.

Look at what I found...
Kick serve
A kick serve is hit with topspin and travels at a lesser pace than the flat serve. The ball travels in a higher arc over the net than a flat serve. It then dips quicker and bounces higher, generally away from the receiving player's backhand. The kick serve in general is safer to hit and is often employed for the second serve due to the safety margin the looping ball creates over the net. A kick serve is harder to learn, however, because it is hit somewhat behind the head of the server and requires slightly more complex mechanics. It is hit with a Continental grip or an Eastern forehand grip. The kick serve is useful for second serves, serve and volley tactics and many other circumstances.

I hope people are not trying to learn kick serve from this. ;)
 
Where the ball would land for these serves when executed properly.....

benfordtennis said:
Make sure you add a very important part of kick vs. American twist which is where would the ball land if serving to the add court if you let the ball drop (where in relationship to the baseline and server)?
For a "Topspin/Kick Serve", the ball would curve/break downwards whilst the ball is in midair and then bounce in the same direction in which it was travelling whilst in flight (of course direction of bounce is not always "truely" in-line with the direction of the flight path, since there are a number of variables that may cause the ball to bounce off center — i.e., non-uniform surface, wind, ball deformation upon impact altering the trajectory, etc.)

For a "Twist Serve/American Twist" (for a righthander), the ball would curve/break downwards, and at the same time, towards the returners right side, and then bounce towards the returner's left side.

Basically, all properly executed "Twist Serves" have some kick (the topspin that induces the jump); the difference between the kick from a "Twist" and "Topspin/Kick Serve" is: For a "Topspin/Kick", the rotation is in-line with the flight path of the ball. For a "Twist", the rotation is out-of-line with the flight path of the ball, spinning diagonally.


Side-By-Side Comparison of Rotation of "Topspin/Kicker" and "American Twist"


8213382365.gif
................................
7523022149.gif

Topspin/Kicker...........................American Twist​
 
Ball Toss on Twist vs. Kick

TennisAsAlways said:
For a "Topspin/Kick Serve", the ball would curve/break downwards whilst the ball is in midair and then bounce in the same direction in which it was travelling whilst in flight (of course direction of bounce is not always "truely" in-line with the direction of the flight path, since there are a number of variables that may cause the ball to bounce off center — i.e., non-uniform surface, wind, ball deformation upon impact altering the trajectory, etc.)

For a "Twist Serve/American Twist" (for a righthander), the ball would curve/break downwards, and at the same time, towards the returners right side, and then bounce towards the returner's left side.

Basically, all properly executed "Twist Serves" have some kick (the topspin that induces the jump); the difference between the kick from a "Twist" and "Topspin/Kick Serve" is: For a "Topspin/Kick", the rotation is in-line with the flight path of the ball. For a "Twist", the rotation is out-of-line with the flight path of the ball, spinning diagonally.


Side-By-Side Comparison of Rotation of "Topspin/Kicker" and "American Twist"


8213382365.gif
................................
7523022149.gif

Topspin/Kicker...........................American Twist​
Let me clarify! I am not talking about the hit= I am talking about the toss. I want you to tell me if you were to put a bucket down on the court= where would you put the bucket to catch the ball toss for the KICK and then the Twist. Please assume the server is serving to the add court. Also it would be easier to use the baseline as your reference point for where to catch the ball toss with your bucket. I am also aware there are different degrees of Twist so be average with your estimate.
 
benfordtennis said:
Let me clarify! I am not talking about the hit= I am talking about the toss. I want you to tell me if you were to put a bucket down on the court= where would you put the bucket to catch the ball toss for the KICK and then the Twist. Please assume the server is serving to the add court. Also it would be easier to use the baseline as your reference point for where to catch the ball toss with your bucket. I am also aware there are different degrees of Twist so be average with your estimate.
benfordtennis said:
Let me clarify!
What's with the "exclamation mark"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you "angry"?

Are you asking me a question or are you "testing" me? "If" you were simply asking because you do not know the answer, then I think you should've toned it down a bit. It "seemed" as if you were DEMANDING that I give you information. "If" that were to be so, then where were your manners?

On the other hand, if you were asking me to provide information only for the purpose of displaying it to readers in general, then why didn't/don't YOU take the time to do it!!!!!?


benfordtennis said:
I am also aware there are different degrees of Twist so be average with your estimate........
I don't appreciate you telling ME to "BE" anything! What are you doing, COMMANDING me? Also, if you are aware of THOSE things then why were you asking me questions, to begin with?

*sighs* It's hard to tell what your intent is supposed to be.

Anyways, I have elaborated this MANY times!!!!!! (excuse me, Marius Hancu, for one moment while I borrow your famous phrase) If you want to know so badly, then why don't YOU just run a search!

I'll post a diagram again anyhow (for Sjohn and other people, for general knowledge.).
 
Sjohn said:
The swing path for my topspin serve finishes with my hitting wrist looking like I'm checking my watch but I am still unsure if my swing path is correct?
Now, I'm not going to use words to describe 4 o'clock, 5 o'clock, behind head, left of head, out in front blah blah blah. A picture should say it all. Take a look folks:

MY%20diagram%20of%20toss%20loactions.bmp

Good day now. 8)
 
When I'm trying to hit a topspin serve (not a twist serve) it tends to go towards to the left side of the court. I notice when I hit the serve the point of contact is a lot lower then the height of the contact point of a flat serve. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong :rolleyes:
 
Sjohn said:
When I'm trying to hit a topspin serve (not a twist serve) it tends to go towards to the left side of the court. I notice when I hit the serve the point of contact is a lot lower then the height of the contact point of a flat serve. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong :rolleyes:

I do not understand. You mean the ball bounce to the left? contact point at the left?

However, you are correct about the lower contact point. The reason for the lower contact is to allow the low to high (just like groundstrokes) motion to apply topspin to the ball. I think you are on the right track here.
 
finally i able to put a top spin serv on my 2nd serv. i toss the ball at 12 o'clock and bend backwards and brush up the ball using continental grip. the ball will always land in and will bounce a little bit higher. the problem is the top spin serv is quite slow. how to make it become a little faster? and also it always land on the same spot (at the center)...how to make a top spin serv with direction?
 
The ball tends to go towards the left side of the court ... but then I was tossing between 12 o'clock and 1. I probably should just practice hitting around 12 for now.
 
blue03 said:
finally i able to put a top spin serv on my 2nd serv. i toss the ball at 12 o'clock and bend backwards and brush up the ball using continental grip. the ball will always land in and will bounce a little bit higher. the problem is the top spin serv is quite slow. how to make it become a little faster? and also it always land on the same spot (at the center)...how to make a top spin serv with direction?

Blue03 when you use a continental grip and when you are at your take back motion do you co-ck your wrist back making your palm face upwards? I'm just curious.
 
Sjohn said:
Blue03 when you use a continental grip and when you are at your take back motion do you **** your wrist back making your palm face upwards? I'm just curious.

i never notice the palm facing where, but since u asked, yes the palm face upwards 45 degrees if i'm not mistaken
 
TennisAsAlways said:
What's with the "exclamation mark"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you "angry"?

Are you asking me a question or are you "testing" me? "If" you were simply asking because you do not know the answer, then I think you should've toned it down a bit. It "seemed" as if you were DEMANDING that I give you information. "If" that were to be so, then where were your manners?

On the other hand, if you were asking me to provide information only for the purpose of displaying it to readers in general, then why didn't/don't YOU take the time to do it!!!!!?


I don't appreciate you telling ME to "BE" anything! What are you doing, COMMANDING me? Also, if you are aware of THOSE things then why were you asking me questions, to begin with?

*sighs* It's hard to tell what your intent is supposed to be.

Anyways, I have elaborated this MANY times!!!!!! (excuse me, Marius Hancu, for one moment while I borrow your famous phrase) If you want to know so badly, then why don't YOU just run a search!

I'll post a diagram again anyhow (for Sjohn and other people, for general knowledge.).


Wow, very defensive reply. As always a little bit of information is dangerous. In reference to your ball toss positions-the graphics are spectacular. However in trying to understand your topspin vs American twist terminology I want you to try something first as it relates to your ball toss positions.

First, your Am. twist ball position in my opinion is off at least a foot too far in front of the baseline. Unless you are "plastic man" it is physically impossible to expose the 6:00 to 7:30 positions on the ball with the ball tossed that far in front. The best way to feel the correct positions would be for you to get on your knees and serve (with your illustrated ball toss positions your racket will slam down into the court, with the ball toss back further it will expose the thicker part of the ball and give you many different blend options but more importantly the room to explode up and accross and not just down.

Also, please correct my terminology. My players and I have always used Kicker and Twist to be the same (maybe that is just old school). However in reference to your ball toss on the topspin it is too far in front which does not expose enough of the 6-&:7:00 position of the ball.

My last point is my best servers have had an eastern BH grip (particularly on the twist), so the people reading this with weak continental grips would be better served to have your less advanced ball toss positions forward. In my experience the best way for the readers to learn the "proper" spin grip is by getting on their knees for 20 balls a day and finish with the racket on the right side of their body. Chang is a good example of poor spin fundamentals. If Chang and many other top players had a better attack angle into the ball their second serves would have been within 10-15% of their first. Chang's first serve was clocked around 125MPH and his second was low 60's.

Also, assuming your grip is good (not weak) try bringing your first serve toss back a little like Samprass. It will improve your pronation and angles in the box. So, one bad habit (weak grip) has to have another bad habit (front ball toss). Get on your knees if it does not work you can always pray. Good luck!
 
blue03 said:
finally i able to put a top spin serv on my 2nd serv. i toss the ball at 12 o'clock and bend backwards and brush up the ball using continental grip. the ball will always land in and will bounce a little bit higher. the problem is the top spin serv is quite slow. how to make it become a little faster? and also it always land on the same spot (at the center)...how to make a top spin serv with direction?


Try to hit thru the ball more instead of just brushing up. Toss and hit the ball a little more into the court might help. As for direction, there are more than one way to do it, you can shift your position a little bit or shift your swing path a little bit.
 
Sjohn said:
The ball tends to go towards the left side of the court ... but then I was tossing between 12 o'clock and 1. I probably should just practice hitting around 12 for now.

Yeah, I would say you are not hitting the center of the ball. When I wasn't hitting the ball cleanly on my serve, I usually just focus more during contact to make sure I hit the correct part of the ball, it helps.
 
benfordtennis said:
Wow, very defensive reply. As always a little bit of information is dangerous. In reference to your ball toss positions-the graphics are spectacular. However in trying to understand your topspin vs American twist terminology I want you to try something first as it relates to your ball toss positions.

First, your Am. twist ball position in my opinion is off at least a foot too far in front of the baseline. Unless you are "plastic man" it is physically impossible to expose the 6:00 to 7:30 positions on the ball with the ball tossed that far in front. The best way to feel the correct positions would be for you to get on your knees and serve (with your illustrated ball toss positions your racket will slam down into the court, with the ball toss back further it will expose the thicker part of the ball and give you many different blend options but more importantly the room to explode up and accross and not just down.

Also, please correct my terminology. My players and I have always used Kicker and Twist to be the same (maybe that is just old school). However in reference to your ball toss on the topspin it is too far in front which does not expose enough of the 6-&:7:00 position of the ball.

My last point is my best servers have had an eastern BH grip (particularly on the twist), so the people reading this with weak continental grips would be better served to have your less advanced ball toss positions forward. In my experience the best way for the readers to learn the "proper" spin grip is by getting on their knees for 20 balls a day and finish with the racket on the right side of their body. Chang is a good example of poor spin fundamentals. If Chang and many other top players had a better attack angle into the ball their second serves would have been within 10-15% of their first. Chang's first serve was clocked around 125MPH and his second was low 60's.

Also, assuming your grip is good (not weak) try bringing your first serve toss back a little like Samprass. It will improve your pronation and angles in the box. So, one bad habit (weak grip) has to have another bad habit (front ball toss). Get on your knees if it does not work you can always pray. Good luck!

First, your Am. twist ball position in my opinion is off at least a foot too far in front of the baseline.
In the diagram, the server has "not" initiated the forward swing yet. If he were to initiate the forward swing, then the tossed ball would be "closer" to being behind him. Generally when swinging, you step up/forward. If he were to swing forward from the fixed standing position in that diagram, that is when the toss locations would be "TOO FAR OFF". In this case however, he would shift his body forward upon swinging forward, therefore those toss locations are not too far off. I certainly would NOT advocate a stationary service motion! How ridiculous would that be.

Also, please correct my terminology. My players and I have always used Kicker and Twist to be the same (maybe that is just old school).
I am "VERY" aware that some people use the terms interchangeably. That was why in my previous post explaining about this whole "terminology" thing, I said that it wasn't "technically" the best choice to refer to a "kicker" as a "twist"....I said "TECHNICALLY". I explained that there are terms used in tennis that aren't "very accurate". That's all.

However in reference to your ball toss on the topspin it is too far in front which does not expose enough of the 6-&:7:00 position of the ball.
Again, in that diagram, the server has NOT initiated the forward swing yet. If he were, then the toss would NOT be "SO FAR" out in front of him.

Lastly, I appreciate you throwing out some pointers here in there, but I do not know why you are "TELLING" me this stuff. It's not like I asked "anyone" for help/advice. I usually give tips/advice to others. I did not ask you for tips. It's almost as if you naturally assume that you know more about tennis than most people around here, therefore you keep saying things like: "Try this, try that." You keep on "telling" people things as if they asked for your advice, when in fact they did NOT (I did not).

It's okay though, I'll try to be understanding, since you are probably a "newbie". You don't know me. You probably aren't very fmiliar with others as well. It seems to be that you're a newbie, and so you may not know who's who around here. BTW, in case you've noticed the "join date" beneath my user name, I actually have frequented this board for years.
 
I finally can hit some heavy topspin using my 2nd serve but now I need to know is how I add more pace to the ball? :confused:

John
 
TennisAsAlways said:
There was a recent (as in within the last couple of weeks) thread about adding more pace to a second serve.

I tried doing a search on pace and topspin and came out empty. Could you point me in the right direction or do you remember the name of the topic?

Thanx
John
 
Sjohn said:
I finally can hit some heavy topspin using my 2nd serve but now I need to know is how I add more pace to the ball? :confused:

John

How hard you swing? For the 2nd serve, you should swing AT LEAST as hard as your 1st serve.
 
Yeah my swing rate for my 2nd is equal to my first server if not faster.
Thanks TennisAsAlways for the link.

John
 
Sjohn said:
Yeah my swing rate for my 2nd is equal to my first server if not faster.
Thanks TennisAsAlways for the link.

John

Toss and contact the ball more into the court will help. Also, try change your swing path, try brush up less and hit thru the ball more.
 
When I serve using the eastern 1h backhand grip is the contact point suppose to be a bit in back of my head. BTW I'm not trying to do an twist serve.

-John
 
Sjohn said:
When I serve using the eastern 1h backhand grip is the contact point suppose to be a bit in back of my head. BTW I'm not trying to do an twist serve.

-John

You can toss and contact in front, right on top or behind your head. The more into the court, the less net clearance. Personally, my 2nd serve toss is on top of my head or a little in front.
 
I can still get some decent topspin even though my toss is a foot or so into the court. I think I get a nice combination of pace and spin by doing this. If I toss over my head, I get more spin but then it's too hard to get any pace.
 
mucat said:
You can toss and contact in front, right on top or behind your head. The more into the court, the less net clearance. Personally, my 2nd serve toss is on top of my head or a little in front.


I'll go with attaining a safe consistant topspin server first then worrying about trying to add more pace to it. I'll just stick with tossing it over my head more in back because if I don't the ball usually hits the net like you just said.
I appreciate everyones contribution and thanks to all in advanced :mrgreen:

John
 
Sjohn said:
When I serve using the eastern 1h backhand grip is the contact point suppose to be a bit in back of my head. BTW I'm not trying to do an twist serve.

-John
It can be a bit out in front or behind your head.

If, however, you toss the ball behind your head to where you are "statically" standing, then swinging into the ball from that position can stress your arm and shoulder quite a lot (long-term and short-term). You can toss "a bit" out in front instead, to a point whereat the ball would be positioned behind your head "if" you were to leap forward during the forward swing (The ball of course would NOT end up behind the head for those who remain in the same position behind the baseline throughout the entire service motion.).

If you want to "power-in" the topspinners —which is what I do very often as high percentage first serves (It is a risky type of 2nd serve though, IMO, even riskier than a pure slice 2nd serve!) — then, like mentioned above, you should really toss the ball out in front, at least about 1 foot beyond the baseline.
 
TennisAsAlways said:
If you want to "power-in" the topspinners —which is what I do very often as high percentage first serves (It is a risky type of 2nd serve though, IMO, even riskier than a pure slice 2nd serve!) — then, like mentioned above, you should really toss the ball out in front, at least about 1 foot beyond the baseline.

When you do the "power-in" serve are you using the Eastern 1HBH grip or continential? When I try to toss the ball in court and hit a topspin serve the ball hits the net always, but when I changed the grip in between the Eastern backhand grip and continential I found out that it works a bit. I'm not sure if I should try to stick with the Eastern 1HBH grip?

Thanx,
John
 
Sjohn said:
When you do the "power-in" serve are you using the Eastern 1HBH grip or continential? When I try to toss the ball in court and hit a topspin serve the ball hits the net always, but when I changed the grip in between the Eastern backhand grip and continential I found out that it works a bit. I'm not sure if I should try to stick with the Eastern 1HBH grip?

Thanx,
John
I use the "Hybrid" grip (Sampras used it a lot too.) It's a grip inbetween a Continental and an EBH. Basically, for a right-hander, the base knuckle of the index would lie on the #1 bevel (the slanted one that's clockwise to the top bevel.) and the edge of the palm would lie on the top bevel-#8 bevel.

I think what you have described is the Hybrid grip. I happen to have come across that grip "naturally, which is a good thing, because I didn't have to force myself to adapt to something peculiar. It's not like one of those awkward things whereas I "tried" to adapt to. My grip just "evolved" on its own to that grip. It's one of those things whereas your body finds its comfort setting on its own.

I use that Hybrid grip for 1st and second serves. "Sometimes" for 2nd serves, I'll use a pure EBH, in attempts to impart more spin. When I'm on a serving streak, however, I'll stick to the Hybrid alone. I don't use the Continental that much.
 
I usually toss 12 o'clock on the deuce court and I toss about 12:30 for the add court because for some reason when I toss 12 o'clock in the add court it just feels so un-natural compared to the deuce court.

John
 
TennisAsAlways said:
If you want to "power-in" the topspinners —which is what I do very often as high percentage first serves (It is a risky type of 2nd serve though, IMO, even riskier than a pure slice 2nd serve!) — then, like mentioned above, you should really toss the ball out in front, at least about 1 foot beyond the baseline.

I have another topspin (with twist) 1st serve that I toss and contact (contact above my head) like my 2nd serve topspin serve, but I would whack the heck out of the ball, the ball would travel high and fast over the net then it dips down fast and deep (hopefully in). When I hit it toward my opponent the first time, some people might actually call it out before it bounces, then they will correct the call after the bounce. Not that I can hit it all the time, it is very tiring to hit it.
 
I started to toss the ball a foot a way from my body into the green at 12 o'clock and it helped with the pace :D
 
mucat said:
I have another topspin (with twist) 1st serve that I toss and contact (contact above my head) like my 2nd serve topspin serve, but I would whack the heck out of the ball, the ball would travel high and fast over the net then it dips down fast and deep (hopefully in). When I hit it toward my opponent the first time, some people might actually call it out before it bounces, then they will correct the call after the bounce. Not that I can hit it all the time, it is very tiring to hit it.
Yeah, I get line-drive-like shots that suddenly "dive" down into the service box at the very last moment.

I have a bad habit of immediately looking away after the serve, thinking that it's a "off", when in fact it's not! Good idea to always pay attention to the ball, that way in match situations when your opponent makes an early "out" call, you know for sure that the serve was "in". Better to be "sure" when making a call then to "hesitate".
 
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