Question about wrist motion on the forehand and 1bh

[LeonardKickServe]

Hello
I have some issues about the meaning of pronation and supinatation
so to illustrate my question I d use close the face of the racquet that hits the ball
-On my forehand Can I close the face of the racquet on my takeback,and naturally after the face of the racquet will open when I swing forward and start
closing on contact ?
On my 1Bh I dont close the face of the racquet on the backswing but later in the motion (after the "c" motion or in its end) the face of the racquet opens and start closing on contact and on follow through.Is that correct?

Thank you

 

[LeonardKickServe]

I know that most of you are tired to answer this kind of question,but I want to improve my technique and I need to know if this moviment(i wrote close the face of the racquet that hits the ball and open the face of the racquet that hits the ball because sometimes I said pronation and I meant supination therefore I avoid such words)
Explanations are welcome
Thank you

 

[user92626]

ok, you should never be bothered by how or where your racket face opens, aligns, etc. during the backswing stage and during the forward swing motion pre-contact point. In those stages you should emphasize on comfort -- which means your arm stays in its natural alignment, ie not twisting in any weird way, as u move the racket. It's only important that you contact the ball with the racket face open -- either perpendicularly open or slightly closed depending on your hitting power.

Again, never consciously manipulate the racket face openness/closeness by turning your arm, like turning door knob. That's asking for injury, at the least a TE.


Same thing with the bh, don't bother tracking your racket face in the backswing or followthru. The only time when how your racket face is aligned is important is the hitting frame. Everything is built around that frame. Meaning, your footwork, running, getting your body balanced, swinging hard, etc. are trained to get into that frame.

 

[Blake0]

Hello
I have some issues about the meaning of pronation and supinatation
so to illustrate my question I d use close the face of the racquet that hits the ball
-On my forehand Can I close the face of the racquet on my takeback,and naturally after the face of the racquet will open when I swing forward and start
closing on contact ?
On my 1Bh I dont close the face of the racquet on the backswing but later in the motion (after the "c" motion or in its end) the face of the racquet opens and start closing on contact and on follow through.Is that correct?

Thank you

on your forehand, you can, but your arm has to be loose. If you tighten up your swing too much it can hinder your stroke. The main focus of the backswing is to get your arm into hitting position, and to transition your wrist into the slot position as you swing forward (when you swing forward your wrist lays back). Your backswing also helps you form rhythm and pace, but that's not it's primary focus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCkPXR63Yvw&feature=related

Not sure what you're asking about on the 1hbh, but check this video out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNdZtkKPFhA

 

[darthpwner]

Both Alex Clayton and Roger Federer do these things, and both have great groundstrokes. So yes, you should close the face on your forehand backswing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqtzX6Ry48s

 

[Dreamer]

Hello
I have some issues about the meaning of pronation and supinatation
so to illustrate my question I d use close the face of the racquet that hits the ball
-On my forehand Can I close the face of the racquet on my takeback,and naturally after the face of the racquet will open when I swing forward and start
closing on contact ?
On my 1Bh I dont close the face of the racquet on the backswing but later in the motion (after the "c" motion or in its end) the face of the racquet opens and start closing on contact and on follow through.Is that correct?

Thank you

Pronation is rotation of the wrist. on the forehand contact you want a laid back wrist, the rotation is not a conscious wrist movement, but a natural part of the kinetic chain.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ ok ppl, pronation and supination are rotations of the forearm (or foot) and not really actions of the wrist. It might be more accurate to say that the hand is pronated (or supinated) by the forearm.

If you grab a doorknob with your right hand and turn it CCW (anti-CW) you will probably use a pronation of the forearm to do so. If you turn that knob CW then a supination will likely be employed. Note that when the arm is bent (at the elbow), the biceps assist the forearm muscles in a supination action.

 

[Dreamer]

^ ok ppl, pronation and supination are rotations of the forearm (or foot) and not really actions of the wrist. It might be more accurate to say that the hand is pronated (or supinated) by the forearm.

If you grab a doorknob with your right hand and turn it CCW (anti-CW) you will probably use a pronation of the forearm to do so. If you turn that knob CW then a supination will likely be employed. Note that when the arm is bent (at the elbow), the biceps assist the forearm muscles in a supination action.

Yeah you're right. Technically wrist is only capable of radial/ulnar deviation as well as extension/flexion. Misconception probably from the common hand turning illustration. In any case I think it's practical to explain it that way.

 

[5263]

Hello
I have some issues about the meaning of pronation and supinatation
so to illustrate my question I d use close the face of the racquet that hits the ball
-On my forehand Can I close the face of the racquet on my takeback,and naturally after the face of the racquet will open when I swing forward and start
closing on contact ?
On my 1Bh I dont close the face of the racquet on the backswing but later in the motion (after the "c" motion or in its end) the face of the racquet opens and start closing on contact and on follow through.Is that correct?

Thank you

I don't think it should be opening or closing at contact.
Does that help?

 

[LeonardKickServe]

Thank you guys.It helped me a lot
5263
What do you think about pronating on the take back?

And I read in somewhere that Federer´s forehand has a lot of pronation and Supination.Is that true?And if is that true,how does it work on his forehand

thank you

 

[Blake0]

Thank you guys.It helped me a lot
5263
What do you think about pronating on the take back?

And I read in somewhere that Federer´s forehand has a lot of pronation and Supination.Is that true?And if is that true,how does it work on his forehand

thank you

I thought that's what you were talking about before..:neutral:

Anyways, pronating your forearm in the backswing isn't necessary, you can hit good forehands without it. As i said before, the main purpose of the backswing is to get into your hitting arm position & slot position when you swing forward.

If you feel like experimenting with federer's pronation thing on his backswing..go ahead (other pro's use it too).

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/

Both the video's really help in analyzing fed's technique. Pronation occurs at the end of federer's backswing where his palm face's the floor (aka pat the dog). In comparison to the third video (not sure who that is), you can notice the pronation federer has. The women's palm never faces the floor so there is never any pronation occuring in the backswing.

As federer start's to swing forward you can see his wrist lay back and his forearm supinating. His wrist laying back is the slot position, which you need to get to, to hit hard. Supination is almost essential to get from the pat the dog position to the slot position. This burst of supination give's added acceleration to his swing. The key is to stay loose, tightening up causes you to partially or not supinate at all. If your arm doesn't supinate while using federer's backswing, you can't get into the slot position and won't be able to hit hard.

Btw, the second video helps notice this better then the first, because of the camera angle.

 

[LeonardKickServe]

Thank you Blake
Sometimes I repeat the things and I didnt mean to, because the English language isnt my first language
Thank you

 

[LeonardKickServe]

Very nice video and website Blake0 ,by the way
the things became clearer now.
And comparing Federer´s forehand follow through to Hewiit´s
(http://www.hi-techtennis.com/forehand/begin.php) .it looks like that federer pronates on the follow through.What would be the reason for that pronation
Thank you Blake0

 

[fuzz nation]

Dear LeonardKS,

Please don't get hung up on actively trying to pronate or supinate as you swing a racquet. It's not an action that you want to try to make happen on its own. If you get the racquet into the right set position with a correct grip and swing through the proper path to a full follow-through, pronation (or supination) will be a natural result of doing these other things well.

Since your wrist can only function as hinge with a limited range of motion, it has to "roll over" through a typical swing so that the racquet can pass the gripping hand and reach higher speeds. A slice backhand is an exception where the wrist doesn't supinate though, since racquet speed isn't a priority.

Don't fixate on it. It will happen on its own if you're correctly performing the basic components of your swings.

 

[5263]

Dear LeonardKS,

Please don't get hung up on actively trying to pronate or supinate as you swing a racquet. It's not an action that you want to try to make happen on its own. If you get the racquet into the right set position with a correct grip and swing through the proper path to a full follow-through, pronation (or supination) will be a natural result of doing these other things well.

Since your wrist can only function as hinge with a limited range of motion, it has to "roll over" through a typical swing so that the racquet can pass the gripping hand and reach higher speeds. A slice backhand is an exception where the wrist doesn't supinate though, since racquet speed isn't a priority.

Don't fixate on it. It will happen on its own if you're correctly performing the basic components of your swings.

I agree with above. IMO pronation and supination are ok terms for describing after the fact, but not so good for learning. I don't really use them very often and am not good with them. Often even though they can be helpful, they can confuse as mentioned earlier in the thread,
on which joint and how they affect.

 

[5263]

Thank you guys.It helped me a lot
5263
What do you think about pronating on the take back?

And I read in somewhere that Federer´s forehand has a lot of pronation and Supination.Is that true?And if is that true,how does it work on his forehand

thank you

I believe the palm should be mostly down on tk bk and start to turn more forward into shot as it starts to move to the contact, then accel up and across the contact with some radial wrist movement thru the shot.
IMO the turning and rolling then happen later in follow thru after the ball is gone.

 

[LeonardKickServe]

Thank you guy

I found that picture on this website http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/evidencewristsnap.html

5623
I didn´t know about the radial moviment(toward the thumb) and I have a question
Even a forehand without pronation and suspination,is there the radial moviment on contact?I think that s a passive moviment of the wrist Is that right ? thank you

 

[5263]

Thank you guy

I found that picture on this website http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/evidencewristsnap.html

5623
I didn´t know about the radial moviment(toward the thumb) and I have a question
Even a forehand without pronation and suspination,is there the radial moviment on contact?I think that s a passive moviment of the wrist Is that right ? thank you

It is not passive for me in many cases, especially when I intend to be strong with the TS.

 

[5263]

I like that link.

IMO the problem with Brian's Gordon's outstanding work could be 2 fold.

First I don't think much is proved about top end serving from 9 or so Div I players. There are few top 50 pros who are great servers, so taking the avg from a small group of college servers is a great start or marker, but not near proof of the answers sought. We will see many adjustments to his fine work as he adds to his study group and refines his already cutting edge approach.

Second, I think is the term "contributors". Maybe I don't have the right term here as I don't have it in front of me, but what he has measured is a speed at different segments along the swing. Isolating the actual contributor responsible for that speed is an elusive quest.

 

[fuzz nation]

I agree with above. IMO pronation and supination are ok terms for describing after the fact, but not so good for learning. I don't really use them very often and am not good with them. Often even though they can be helpful, they can confuse as mentioned earlier in the thread,
on which joint and how they affect.

Well said, amigo. I'm not on a crusade to eradicate these terms, but I'm convinced that they've become a distracting sort of tangent in a lot of the discussions around here. As long as the fundamentals aren't shelved in somebody's quest to pronate above all else, it's great to know the terminology.

 

[LeonardKickServe]

5263
I realized today that there is radial deviation(passive) in my follow through(proabably at the end of the follow through)Is that acceptable?
You said that when you intend more topspin you use actively radial deviation.But in what part of the motion ? On contact? On follow through?When you swing forward?
And have another question about serve,when I swing to contact, is there ulnar deviation?and if there is ,is that passive or active
Thank you

 

[LeonardKickServe]

Do most part of the professional players use radial deviation on contact to generate more top spin

 

[5263]

Do most part of the professional players use radial deviation on contact to generate more top spin

I think so, to one extent or another. I think it is less when they try to drive it more, and use it more (actively) when they want to jack up the spin. Then there is everything in the middle.

Yes about radial dev on serve and I think it is active to some extent. More with some than others.