Question for Will Hamilton (& others who promote laid back wrist on forehand contact)

TennisCJC

Legend
But, neither Agassi nor Federer, nor Nadal or Djokovic, raise their elbow in the takeback. Borg and Lendl did.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsEKwaO5pzA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg2gzBR9Klg

See Agassi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXWks8yvRJQ&feature=relmfu look at 1-2 seconds in, 22-23 seconds in, 41-42 seconds in. First thing leading arm back is his elbow. Hands and racket head still between shoulders.

See Fed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4&feature=relmfu
at 4-5 seconds, 17-18 seconds, 26-27 seconds elbow is leading back.

All I am saying is if you lead back with the elbow it keep hands and racket head to your side and prevents laying the hand, arm and racket head back early. If you keep the pointy elbow until you start forward, it will also keep your swing shorter. Both Fed and Agassi keep pointy elbow position until they start forward. Elbow is pointing first at back fence then at players back and stays further back than hand and racket head until they start forward.
 
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dozu

Banned
have you guys considered - in wheelchair tennis, you rotate the wheel chair in the opposite direction of the stroke. how do you work that into your theory of forehand weight transfer and release? when you think about it that way, its very apprarent what the lower body should and should not be doing.

lol

legs are not wheels... so the above is a fallacy.
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
^^^PW - you haven't responded to my post asking for clarification of your understanding of wheelchair tennis?

cheers
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
^^^When you say "in wheelchair tennis, you rotate the wheel chair in the opposite direction of the stroke" you need to be a bit more specific. When you say opposite direction what do you mean exactly? High level players will rotate their chair IN to the forehand (braking the left wheel (for a righty)), this creates angular momentum into the swing and facilitates an IN-Turn (a turn towards the net and the middle of the court. This is not roatating the chair in the opposite direction.

On the backhand, the Natural turn is often an OUT-Turn, i.e. a turn away from the net toward the sidelines, which would be the opposite direction of the shot, but this is down to the momentum movement of the chair and is more apparent on a slice backhandwhere rotation is less important. We are now encouraging all our players to look to make an IN-Turn on the backhand side aswell in order to facilitate a more agressive recovery position further up the court.

So unless I've misunderstood what you mean, it is not correct to say you rotate the chair in the opposite direction to the shot?

Cheers


please elabarote

on a righty forehand, IN means counter clockwise from a birds eye view?
 
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toly

Hall of Fame
Correct. The forward swing of the racquet would be anti-clockwise (if viewed from above) as would the movement of the chair.

Cheers
IMO, if forward swing of the racquet is counterclockwise, the chair movement should be clockwise.
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
^^^When you say "in wheelchair tennis, you rotate the wheel chair in the opposite direction of the stroke" you need to be a bit more specific. When you say opposite direction what do you mean exactly? High level players will rotate their chair IN to the forehand (braking the left wheel (for a righty)), this creates angular momentum into the swing and facilitates an IN-Turn (a turn towards the net and the middle of the court. This is not roatating the chair in the opposite direction.

On the backhand, the Natural turn is often an OUT-Turn, i.e. a turn away from the net toward the sidelines, which would be the opposite direction of the shot, but this is down to the momentum movement of the chair and is more apparent on a slice backhandwhere rotation is less important. We are now encouraging all our players to look to make an IN-Turn on the backhand side aswell in order to facilitate a more agressive recovery position further up the court.

So unless I've misunderstood what you mean, it is not correct to say you rotate the chair in the opposite direction to the shot?

Cheers

could you elaborate on that?

how do you combine that with the IN turn?
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
There is either a deliberate pull back on the left wheel which rotates the chair counterclockwise as the racquet swings round, or a braking force on the left wheel which causes the chair to rotate in the same fashion.

This video of Esther Vergeer shows the correct rotation (it's not a great video but the angle is perfect)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gixk0HjraTg&feature=related

Cheers

i do see that in that video
 

Ash_Smith

Legend
You'll see it a hell of a lot if you watch enough wheelchair tennis. You don't see it nearly as often on the backhand side as the natural turn is likely an out-turn, although we are trying to encourage our players to turn-in on the backhand side too as it allows a more agressive recovery position. It's a much harder skill to perform though as it requires either a cross hand turn or a massive push on the left wheel after contact.

Cheers
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
You'll see it a hell of a lot if you watch enough wheelchair tennis. You don't see it nearly as often on the backhand side as the natural turn is likely an out-turn, although we are trying to encourage our players to turn-in on the backhand side too as it allows a more agressive recovery position. It's a much harder skill to perform though as it requires either a cross hand turn or a massive push on the left wheel after contact.

Cheers


fine. i cannot dispute the video evidence. but in theory, does it make sense? how can you the whip crack if you are spinning in the same direction?

there is also a lot of video evidence of WTA players hitting forehands, but it is not necessarily ideal form.

it could be the case that wheelchair players all hit "push" forehands. i feel the "in turn" contradicts the whip analogy.
 
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TennisCJC

Legend
Similar topic being discussed in Oscar at the fair. I know nothing about wheelchair tennis but stopping or pulling back on off non-dominant side to speed up dominant side is a concept used in many sports. Kind of like tennis serving where L arm locks across body to speed R arm up. Whip analogy is good - you pull back on the hand to speed up and crack the tip of the whip. Watch David Ferrer hit forehands when he is not moving forward to contact the ball - he frequently pulls back on L shoulder/foot to speed up R shoulder rotation. Baseball pitchers are taught to lock or snap back on their off L side to speed up right arm too.
 

Anton

Legend
About loose or not loose wrist read please http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/handuse.html.
There is picture of the Nadal very hard grip.
nadal2stronghanda.jpeg

See also photo of Nadal in post 151 and read http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=395109&highlight=toly&page=2 post #25.

This is some of the worst tennis advice I've seen - relaxing the hand is crucial to developing efficient, smooth strokes. Like trowing a ball or a stone with a stiff wrist this is a bad idea.

Cherry picking pictures of a players in caught in awkward positions is not a good way to study tennis.
 
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toly

Hall of Fame
This is some of the worst tennis advice I've seen - relaxing the hand is crucial to developing efficient, smooth strokes. Like trowing a ball or a stone with a stiff wrist this is a bad idea.

Cherry picking pictures of a players in caught in awkward positions is not a good way to study tennis.
See please the post
Federer takeback

http://www.flickr.com/photos/markhowardphotography/5619882155/

thumb points down meaning that he holds the racquet fairly relaxed

Forward swing and contact

http://tennis.about.com/od/forehandbackhand/ss/federerforehand_9.htm

Look at the forearm muscles how contracted they are and tell me he holds that racquet with a relaxed grip ... and yes, his thumb is pointing down, so he's squeezing tha thandle and accelerates very quickly ... if you watch it live, the aceleration it's insane ... i kind of wonder if he's controlling that racquet at all or it just happens for him .... I think it's a bit of both :)
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Pictures mean little, you have to look at the video.

Arm stays relaxed and it is this relaxed state that allows for tension build up and release that creates effortless power.

Advice to grip the handle tight is a BAD tennis advice.

federer forehands, with clearly relaxed wrist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc

Don't make general conclusions from lazy warm up strokes. Instead, please present any Federer more than 100 mph FH video with relaxed wrist.

Also, read carefully http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5954592#post5954592, http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2006/07/wrist_snap_in_the_serve.html, and http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/search.php?searchid=12746553.

If you disagree with Rod Cross, please provide any evidence, otherwise there is nothing to talk about.:(:confused:
 
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Don't make general conclusions from lazy warm up strokes. Instead, please present any Federer more than 100 mph FH video with relaxed wrist.

Also, read carefully http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5954592#post5954592, http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2006/07/wrist_snap_in_the_serve.html, and http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/search.php?searchid=12746553.

If you disagree with Rod Cross, please provide any evidence, otherwise there is nothing to talk about.:(:confused:

The racquet would not instantaneously tilt forward at below the midline if the racquet was held tightly.
 

Anton

Legend
Don't make general conclusions from lazy warm up strokes.

Federer hits with relaxed arm, he hits that way in practice and short of some awkward position he hits that way in a match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ6eXOLN-PI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPLmCqGIotM&feature=related


if you would hit a single good forehand in your whole life, or actually trained anyone to a good forehand, you would not be recommending any voluntary stiffening of the arm/hand, any active wrist flexing or try to say that body rotation is not important.
 
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TheCheese

Professional
You should just relax the wrist. The weight of the racket lagging behind will cause the wrist to lay back, then release as you move towards your contact. None of this should be forced or you're going to cause injuries and reduce your power.
 

toly

Hall of Fame
Federer hits with relaxed arm, he hits that way in practice and short of some awkward position he hits that way in a match.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ6eXOLN-PI&feature=related

This is Federer picture copied from your video.

2cfblp4.jpg


Look at the forearm muscles how contracted they are and tell me he holds that racquet with a relaxed grip.

if you would hit a single good forehand in your whole life, or actually trained anyone to a good forehand, you would not be recommending any voluntary stiffening of the arm/hand, any active wrist flexing or try to say that body rotation is not important.

I’ve never recommended any voluntary stiffening of the arm/hand. I’m just trying to accomplish some research. This problem is still a mystery to me.

I actually trained players to hit with active wrist ulnar deviation and they begun hitting bullets after that.

Let’s forget about the rotation of the body. This thread is about the wrist/hand.
 

Anton

Legend
This is Federer picture copied from your video.

2cfblp4.jpg


Look at the forearm muscles how contracted they are and tell me he holds that racquet with a relaxed grip.


The grip is relaxed. The forearm muscles, although relaxed, have many forces acting on them as the racket momentum gets loaded up and released.


I’ve never recommended any voluntary stiffening of the arm/hand. I’m just trying to accomplish some research. This problem is still a mystery to me.

I actually trained players to hit with active wrist ulnar deviation and they begun hitting bullets after that.

Let’s forget about the rotation of the body. This thread is about the wrist/hand.

I don't see how that is possible.

It's possible you trained people to hit active wrist ulnar deviation , it's possible that they begun hitting harder, but I don't see how it is possible to muscle wrist into making more efficient power then what relaxed wrist produces through dynamic load and release action.

Maybe next time you see me at the park you can show me - hitting hard is not a problem for me, but I want to hit bullets too :)
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Can we find any EMG research?

I don't know much about EMG measurements but maybe, in principle, that kind of research can answer questions about the muscle tension & activation timing.

Search - EMG forehand tennis, etc.

For example, the forehand is mentioned briefly in this reference, page 305.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-G...v=onepage&q=EMG wrist forehand tennis&f=false

Maybe some of the current pros have been tested?

BTW - Tilt at impact - When I hit a forehand if the ball is below the racket centerline (mostly horizontal) the head instantly flips upper edge forward(racket face closes). If above the centerline the upper edge flips backward (racket face opens.) The change in the angle of the racket face was often very considerable (40d. etc.).

I saw some Federer forehands and this tilt at impact was not as much even when some of the hits look considerably off the centerline. Racket head speed, racket path, ? many other variables...............

Federer forehand video with racket tilt at impact, 1:21, 1:38, 2:50, 5:11. Excellent high speed video and editing. (I also like the serve close-up at 2:37.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZrtyPvcuIk&feature=related

From the physics point of view the racket must always change its rotation rate for an off-centerline ball impact but the amount will depend, first, on the moment of inertia of the racket and, second, the forces on the handle -from grip tightness, and the other wrist actions.

How independent are the motions of griping & the other wrist motions such as extension/flexion? How loose a wrist can you have and still grip somewhat firmly?
 
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toly

Hall of Fame
I don't know much about EMG measurements but maybe, in principle, that kind of research can answer questions about the muscle tension & activation timing.

Search - EMG forehand tennis, etc.

For example, the forehand is mentioned briefly in this reference, page 305.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-G...v=onepage&q=EMG wrist forehand tennis&f=false

I’m retired Electrical Engineer and really don’t know anything about muscles. Nevertheless, I found interesting information (?) in the article you posted http://books.google.com/books?id=-Gy...tennis&f=false, page 305.

There is citation:

“The golf swing may be divided into four specific phases: take-away, forward swing, acceleration, and follow-through. During the take-away phase, the wrist flexors exhibit minimal EMG activity, whereas the wrist extensors exhibit 33% of a maximum voluntary isometric contraction (MVIC). The forward swing is characterized by increased muscle activity of both the wrist extensors, which exhibit 45% MVIC, and the wrist flexors, which exhibit 35% MVIC. At ball contact, the wrist flexors activity significantly increases to 91% MVIC.

Results of a study of the muscular activity pattern of golfers with medial epicondylitis and golfers with no injury indicated significantly greater wrist flexor muscles activity in the golfers with medial epicondylitis during the take-away, forward swing, and acceleration phases.”

I have problem with English and cannot understand clearly above statements.

Does it mean that the wrist flexion must be almost maximally (91%) active at ball contact??????????:confused:
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
Does it mean that the wrist flexion must be almost maximally (91%) active at ball contact??????????[/SIZE][/B]:confused:

I don't think so.
I think it means the wrist extensors are giving a 91% effort.
I don't think we know if that effort is to stabilize the stroke or flexion.
Does look good for your point of view on the surface of things I suppose.
 

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
...........................................
Does it mean that the wrist flexion must be almost maximally (91%) active at ball contact??????????:confused:

I don't know how to interpret the EMG information but from time to time I see publications that show EMG measurents. I believe that I have seen one on forehands or serves.

Probably the EMG activity would be high for

1) high acceleration joint movement, flexion or extension, etc.
2) isometric type non-movement where the agonist muscle and its antagonist are both activated. No joint flexion or extension, etc.
3) when the joint itself is being accelerated by larger body parts and the muscle must be activated simply to keep the joint in the same degree of flexion or extension, etc..or to limit motion.
4) gripping a racket with no joint movement.

Probably no EMG activation is required to stretch a muscle. If the muscle has been pre-stretched I would think that it might contract very rapidly without EMG activation.?

EMG interpretation is a complicated subject. Does anyone have a readable reference to include EMG interpretation?
 
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Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
BTW - Update regarding EMG and muscle force-

A biomechanics researcher answered my question - EMG activation does not accompany muscle shortening that is supplied by the pre-stretched passive muscle component.

This is important in biomechanics because the passive muscle component is described as being able to supply forces at higher muscle shortening velocities.

I'm trying to interpret and understand this biomechanics principle (which I may have misstated). The issue is most clearly considered using the Hill Muscle Model description or similar model.

I currently think it means that the highest velocities in athletics are probably supplied by passive pre-stretched muscles. ??

It's too bad biomechanics researchers never play tennis and use this stuff........
 

Anton

Legend
BTW - Update regarding EMG and muscle force-

A biomechanics researcher answered my question - EMG activation does not accompany muscle shortening that is supplied by the pre-stretched passive muscle component.

This is important in biomechanics because the passive muscle component is described as being able to supply forces at higher muscle shortening velocities.

I'm trying to interpret and understand this biomechanics principle (which I may have misstated). The issue is most clearly considered using the Hill Muscle Model description or similar model.

I currently think it means that the highest velocities in athletics are probably supplied by passive pre-stretched muscles. ??

It's too bad biomechanics researchers never play tennis and use this stuff........

That has been my view on wrist action - relaxed wrist maximizes racket head speed with very low effort (assuming proper set up and tension build up).
 
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5263

G.O.A.T.
I’m retired Electrical Engineer and really don’t know anything about muscles.

I have problem with English and cannot understand clearly above statements.

Does it mean that the wrist flexion must be almost maximally (91%) active at ball contact??????????:confused:

Golf is different in many ways, but some important ones are,
how the stick is more inline with arms at contact than tennis,
(at least with left arm) with right wrist working to help get there.

Tennis has a pocketing string bed vs a solid club face.
Tennis is more about control, but using a lot of power like a drive, while
mixing control like avoiding hazards when chipping.
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
Golf is different in many ways, but some important ones are,
how the stick is more inline with arms at contact than tennis,
(at least with left arm) with right wrist working to help get there.

Tennis has a pocketing string bed vs a solid club face.
Tennis is more about control, but using a lot of power like a drive, while
mixing control like avoiding hazards when chipping.

i think the contact point and rotation is quite similar.

i m wondering if the right leg stepping back is a key fundamental in the stroke. if that is the case , then the limiting factor on the forehand would be internal hip rotation of the left leg.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
i think the contact point and rotation is quite similar.

Interesting?
Except for the drive where they move it up a bit, tennis
contact pt is more in front imo.
I guess there is some likeness in the rotation, but seems
far more different than alike imo, but mostly from the
different contact point.
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
Interesting?
Except for the drive where they move it up a bit, tennis
contact pt is more in front imo.
I guess there is some likeness in the rotation, but seems
far more different than alike imo, but mostly from the
different contact point.

there is only one way to rotate a human body efficiently.

slap shot
golf swing
baseball swing
tennis hand

i think they are based on the same principals




right side hitting into a very strong and stable left side. with amateurs, the left side tend to collapse.
 

5263

G.O.A.T.
right side hitting into a very strong and stable left side. with amateurs, the left side tend to collapse.

No wonder with how that left leg gets twisted, :)

Lifting from open stance I guess uses some of the same, but quite a bit
different imo....but I'm not a golfer.
 

pushing_wins

Hall of Fame
No wonder with how that left leg gets twisted, :)

Lifting from open stance I guess uses some of the same, but quite a bit
different imo....but I'm not a golfer.

i dont agree. i think open stance is the same. the weight should never spill over the left side.

here is djoker at age 6 - semi open stance. its come natural to talented player.

 

boramiNYC

Hall of Fame
^^^
since 2hbh uses both hands like golf the comparison would be closer. most dominant 2hbh stance is the closed and the front foot pointing the sideway of the target. there is similarity imo. all arm swinging motions uses the many common biomechanical principles.
 
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