Question re Timed Matches

FloridaAG

Hall of Fame
For you DC area players with timed matches that I keep reading about, what percentage of matches end due to time?

It sounds like any competitive match goes over the time limit (from what I have been reading anyway) - Seems like a flawed system to me. Seems like if this is as consistent a problem as it seems - they should switch to either pro-sets or just play certain number of point tie breakers or something. I would be very unhappy if I had to play a timed match.
 
i would guess at 1 out of 10 matches get timed out in my league experiences. maybe even less but it's annoying when it happens. i could never understand why in spring or summer leagues we are still playing (and paying) for indoor courts.

i've also noticed that some players have much more timed matches than normal. so your grinder/pusher types definitely play longer points and end up out of time. also those folks who take inordinately long time between points and change overs.
 
Flawed or not, it is necessary due to the amount of players vs. amount (or lack) of facilities. USTA basically rents out various clubs, and the clubs will only let us use it for so long.

In my experience, I have quite a higher percentage end timed...almost half I would guess.

It is what it is. We've been criticized for it over and over (just do a search), but I would rather play a timed match than no match at all.
 
Out of the 9 matches that I played, 4 stopped due to time limitations.

My league matches are indoor - even in the summer - so there's no way we can get unlimted time to finish a whole match in an indoor tennis club.

For some reason, we don't have an outdoor league in Nothern VA. Even if it is outdoor, I believe they limit those matches to 2hrs since competition for courts is very high.
 
Flawed or not, it is necessary due to the amount of players vs. amount (or lack) of facilities. USTA basically rents out various clubs, and the clubs will only let us use it for so long.

In my experience, I have quite a higher percentage end timed...almost half I would guess.

It is what it is. We've been criticized for it over and over (just do a search), but I would rather play a timed match than no match at all.

I agree with that any match is better than none - it just seems to me that 2 out of 3 set scoring seems to inherently conflict with the time limit that has been set (I am just going by what I have read in your threads as another post just got me thinking about this issue) -

I did not realize that spring and summer matches were also played indoors -
 
For some reason, we don't have an outdoor league in Nothern VA. Even if it is outdoor, I believe they limit those matches to 2hrs since competition for courts is very high.

Yes we do, JR. The boys just need to get organized and actually participate in it.

And yes, even outdoor, we have a 2 hour time limit...again, due to high demand at the facilities (even outdoor). My last outdoor match did actually time out.
 
I agree with that any match is better than none - it just seems to me that 2 out of 3 set scoring seems to inherently conflict with the time limit that has been set (I am just going by what I have read in your threads as another post just got me thinking about this issue) -

I did not realize that spring and summer matches were also played indoors -

For the indoor, 90 minute timed matches, in lieu of a third set you play a 10 point 'champions' tiebreak.

In outdoor league, we play full best out of three sets, however we still have a 2 hour time limit.

There is an indoor league here as well as an outdoor league. There are also several other outdoor leagues (non-usta) that players can participate in.
 
Yes we do, JR. The boys just need to get organized and actually participate in it.

And yes, even outdoor, we have a 2 hour time limit...again, due to high demand at the facilities (even outdoor). My last outdoor match did actually time out.

So what do peeps have to do to make that outdoor mens league happen?

Funny, I think I'm better outdoors than indoors - at least right now.
 
So what do peeps have to do to make that outdoor mens league happen?

Funny, I think I'm better outdoors than indoors - at least right now.

I've always had a better outdoor record than indoor.

You need enough players to form at least two teams. Sounds silly, but that is how we started, and now we have small leagues at the 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0 level. Maybe 4-5 teams in each league?

And each team needs a captain.

If you really want it to happen, contract Ingrid in early spring, late winter...start getting names. Once the teams are formed, it is just like indoor, you register, get a schedule, though some rules are slightly different from indoor to outdoor.
 
Unless you win in straight sets convincingly, chances are that you will time out in the middle of the second set in a 90 minute match. Likely, if you lose the first set, you are done.
 
Unless you win in straight sets convincingly, chances are that you will time out in the middle of the second set in a 90 minute match. Likely, if you lose the first set, you are done.

So why not just play an 8-10 game pro set instead? At least there will be no uncertainty about how it will end (ie. by score or time)?
 
cuz it's friday and i'm bored. i play in a 14 team league with 90 minutes of play time. my team has played 11 times (with 2 singles matches, 3 doubles matches) for a total of 55 matches. i counted 8 timed matches. so roughly 15% of our matches timed out.

in a combo league with 3 matches of doubles - the team played 12 matches for a total of 36 matches. 5 of our matches timed out. that makes it roughly 14%.

and because i'm a stalker who knows Topaz i found her one indoor league. her team played a total of 21 (!) times for a total of 105 matches. 30 times it timed out. that is roughly 29% her team's matches timed out.

JRstriker's team has played 15 times this season for a total of 75 matches. 12 of his team's matches timed out. roughly 16%. oddly by JRstriker's own admission -- he's responsible for 33% of his own team's timed matches. :lol:

so based on these numbers this is what i conclude. about 15% of men's matches time out. double that number (30%) of women's matches time out. my numbers suggest that these ladies are taking too freaking long! muahahaahahahahahaa. :)
 
and because i'm a stalker who knows Topaz i found her one indoor league. her team played a total of 21 (!) times for a total of 105 matches. 30 times it timed out. that is roughly 29% her team's matches timed out.



so based on these numbers this is what i conclude. about 15% of men's matches time out. double that number (30%) of women's matches time out. my numbers suggest that these ladies are taking too freaking long! muahahaahahahahahaa. :)

We have one more match to go (though I'm not playing it), so it is 22 matches total for the season. Insane, but the general consensus was that people didn't want the league divided up into two flights.

My theory as to why our matches take longer...less aces. Or, really, no aces!
 
Thanks for the explanations - just a foreign concept to me - Fortunately we have lots of courts here in South Florida.
 
JRstriker's team has played 15 times this season for a total of 75 matches. 12 of his team's matches timed out. roughly 16%. oddly by JRstriker's own admission -- he's responsible for 33% of his own team's timed matches. :lol:

LOL!

Hey, no body gets an easy match when the face me. I might lose, but the guy who beats me is going to sweat and bleed for it......well maybe just sweat for it.
 
TFM, when you calculate this, are you looking at just the 'timed' matches? Because sometimes we have to enter a timed match as a 'retirement' because Tennislink won't accept the score any other way.

My team had only one real retirement of the season, and that was a doubles court in the very first match.

Also, sometimes it will say 1-0 for the 3rd set tiebreak, but you have no way of knowing if that match timed out or finished. Whoever is ahead in that tiebreak gets the nod and the win. In my first singles match of the season, I lost because she was ahead of me by one point in the tiebreak, but we hadn't finished (5-6). Technically that is a timed match, even though it wasn't entered that way.

I suspect the women's total to actually be higher than what you figured. On the matches I've captained for that team, I don't think we've ever had all the court actually complete by the time limit.
 
ahhh. interesting point. i was going to say there are an AWFUL LOT of women's matches ending in retirement. i kept imagining you ladies playing a set and just unable to continue because of fatigue or injuries or PMS. i was thinking ladies writhing on the ground in pain was a common occurrence. :lol:

so that means the percentage for both guys and girls could be higher. interesting.

the numbers also suggest that JRstriker plays like a woman. muahahaahahaha. i kill me.

i still have this theory that there are guys and gals who just have a much higher percentage of timed matches because of how they play. i wish i could find the actual score but i remember a men's singles match between two old fart pushers and the score ended like 4-3. first set. 7 games total. just a crapfest.
 
Back in the day, there was no option for 'timed' when you entered the score, so you had to put 'retired'.

I remember looking up some opponents, and being awfully confused as to why they retired so much!!! And then I was entering scores one time, and Tennislink wouldn't take my 'timed' score...another captain clued me into how we have to sometimes put 'retirement' instead.
 
No - I think the guys miss more. The women see are just so much more consistent at the same level.

Yes, I would agree with that...I see that in mixed all the time. Most of the guys (yes, I'm generalizing here) at my level try too much for winners on each shot, and the errors really pile up.

Though, I'm not exactly one to talk about errors piling up! :oops:
 
Back to the original post, I would also add that even if a majority of timed matches do not end in time expiring, time is always a pressure. You will see the first set going on for an hour and the second set finishing in 25 minutes because the team that lost in the first set is rushing to come back within time.
 
^^^It really does shape how you play differently...on the flip side, something when you lose that first set, there's the inevitable second set melt-down (bagel). I've done that a lot this season.
 
^^^It really does shape how you play differently...on the flip side, something when you lose that first set, there's the inevitable second set melt-down (bagel). I've done that a lot this season.

I'm the opposite. I start playing really well in the second set in most occasions. I won one match at 5-3 in the second set and I was up 3-0 in the last match when it timed out.

I did have one total, Safin-like melt-down though.
 
^^^It really does shape how you play differently...on the flip side, something when you lose that first set, there's the inevitable second set melt-down (bagel). I've done that a lot this season.

Yes - that is driving why I think the concept is messed up and they should play a different format for times matches, so that this issue of timing out is the exception rather than a common enough issue that it really impacts play
 
Yes - that is driving why I think the concept is messed up and they should play a different format for times matches, so that this issue of timing out is the exception rather than a common enough issue that it really impacts play

With indoor matches and teams playing back to back, there is really no other option than playing timed matches. The club is going to turn the lights out when it's closing time. No matter what type of scoring you use there has to be a time limit so the next team can start. On a typical night here there are matches at 6:30-8:00, 8:00-9:30 then 9:30-11:00pm. Even an 8 game pro set may not work. This is an actual score from a singles match this week: 4-2. Yes, they played the entire 90 minutes.
 
cuz it's friday and i'm bored. i play in a 14 team league with 90 minutes of play time. my team has played 11 times (with 2 singles matches, 3 doubles matches) for a total of 55 matches. i counted 8 timed matches. so roughly 15% of our matches timed out.

in a combo league with 3 matches of doubles - the team played 12 matches for a total of 36 matches. 5 of our matches timed out. that makes it roughly 14%.

and because i'm a stalker who knows Topaz i found her one indoor league. her team played a total of 21 (!) times for a total of 105 matches. 30 times it timed out. that is roughly 29% her team's matches timed out.

JRstriker's team has played 15 times this season for a total of 75 matches. 12 of his team's matches timed out. roughly 16%. oddly by JRstriker's own admission -- he's responsible for 33% of his own team's timed matches. :lol:

so based on these numbers this is what i conclude. about 15% of men's matches time out. double that number (30%) of women's matches time out. my numbers suggest that these ladies are taking too freaking long! muahahaahahahahahaa. :)

TFM: While your conclusion is a little suspect, your calculations are correct.
A couple of years ago I went thru all the scoresheets of my team and found that close to 40% of all matches were incomplete. I included incomplete 3rd set tiebreaks. I was trying to lobby for 2 hours instead of 90 minutes.
 
OK, I ran my numbers. I play in leagues with 90-minute matches and 2-hour matches.

I played 24 matches so far this year, and 4 timed out. That's 16.6%.

Two were 3.5 doubles matches, one was a mixed match, and one was a 6.5 combo match. All four were 90-minute losses. Three of the losses were cases where we really had little chance to win it and would have lost outright had time not lapsed. The fourth was a heartbreak that timed at 6-3, 3-6, but we were declared the losers based on total games won on our teammates' four courts.

I have found that losing the first set does not necessarily mean your goose is cooked. If you lose the first set badly, that usually means you lose it quickly. So you can drop the first set 1-6 and still have plenty of time to win the match outright by taking the second set and the tiebreak.

Or (more commonly) you lose the first set in a close one (say, 5-7) and then the clock becomes a factor. But if you do lose the first set by two games, then the tiebreak rules mean that you can win the match by getting three games ahead in the second set (3-0). If the match times out at that point, you win the match based on total number of games won.

Another common scenario is you lose the first set in a tiebreak (6-7), and you're in serious time trouble. Then all you have to do is get ahead by two games in the second set to win the thing.

I feel like I have managed some comebacks because many players start playing like the match is over just because they won the first set. They get conservative and stop doing what was working. So if you go for your shots (especially coming to net) you can shorten the points and rebound quickly. In three of my five ladies day matches, we won just as time expired after dropping the first set.

Timed matches aren't great, but they are significantly better than the alternative, which is Not Enough Matches.
 
Another common scenario is you lose the first set in a tiebreak (6-7), and you're in serious time trouble. Then all you have to do is get ahead by two games in the second set to win the thing.


Cindy or Topaz,

Do you guys have a link to the diagram that they use to determine who won?

Being the champ at losing the first set 6-7, I am quite sure that you have to have played at least 4 games in the second set for it to be considered valid.
 
Cindy or Topaz,

Do you guys have a link to the diagram that they use to determine who won?

Being the champ at losing the first set 6-7, I am quite sure that you have to have played at least 4 games in the second set for it to be considered valid.

I can email the flowchart to you. May not be the same in Cindy's neck of the woods.
 
I can email the flowchart to you. May not be the same in Cindy's neck of the woods.

I guess is doens't matter at this point. Didn't know that the tie breaker rules differed in MD and VA.

I think I would have won 2-3 more singles matches under MD rules as apposed to losing 2-3 matches in VA. Man, I might have to start playing in MD - Hollywood's outdoor matches never time out.
 
I have no objections to timed matches, bowing to the economics, but the time should be 2 hours, not an hour and a half. Any competitive match should last more than an hour and a half.

2 cents, adjusted for inflation. :-)
 
90mins is enough time for a competitive 2 set match. Something like 7-5, 6-3.

2hrs is enough time for a 3 set match. If your matches are taking longer, you are taking too much time between points and changeovers and probably too much time between 1st and 2nd serves.

If you are still taking too much time, you simply play too slowly.
 
90mins is enough time for a competitive 2 set match. Something like 7-5, 6-3.

2hrs is enough time for a 3 set match. If your matches are taking longer, you are taking too much time between points and changeovers and probably too much time between 1st and 2nd serves.

If you are still taking too much time, you simply play too slowly.

Or you just could be playing multiple deuce points.

I have to dissagree. If you went to 7-5 on the fisrt set, odds are that you will only have about 30 min left for the second set and there's no guarrantee that the second set will be any shorter than the first, or that the other player will play to your speed if you are down.

Also add in that you get 10 min for a warm up, so you have to complete the match in 80-min.
 
90mins is enough time for a competitive 2 set match. Something like 7-5, 6-3.

2hrs is enough time for a 3 set match. If your matches are taking longer, you are taking too much time between points and changeovers and probably too much time between 1st and 2nd serves.

If you are still taking too much time, you simply play too slowly.

Umm, not necessarily. A match that is competitive and has long points, and goes into a third set will and can take longer than two hours. Watch TV...it happens quite frequently.

My last two hour timed match ended with the score at 4-6, 6-4, 1-1...a tight match with many, many deuce games. Doesn't mean that we need to change how we play, or that we took too much time in between games or sets. To assume so is rather ignorant.
 
Umm, not necessarily. A match that is competitive and has long points, and goes into a third set will and can take longer than two hours. Watch TV...it happens quite frequently.

You are not playing on the pro level and don't have the level of consistency they have. Average club rally last about 5 shots. Club matches should end much faster than pro matches.
You are also not expending nearly as much energy with each shot as they are and don't have to take a lot of time to recover.

My last two hour timed match ended with the score at 4-6, 6-4, 1-1...a tight match with many, many deuce games.

Sure it can happen, but this is not the norm. How many matches do you have that have a plethora of duece games??
 
You are not playing on the pro level and don't have the level of consistency they have. Average club rally last about 5 shots. Club matches should end much faster than pro matches.
You are also not expending nearly as much energy with each shot as they are and don't have to take a lot of time to recover.

Sure it can happen, but this is not the norm. How many matches do you have that have a plethora of duece games??

You're making a whole bunch of generalizations about things that you don't seem to know much about. Who says club matches should end faster than pro matches? You? Have you ever seen two club pushers play each other?

I never said I was playing on the pro or club level. But I do play in a very large and competitive USTA district, where there are lots of players who are basically on the same level of play. To draw the conclusions about my play (or anyone else's play) just because they don't finish a match in a prescribed amount of time is...well, I said it already...ignorant.

Did you read the rest of the thread? I've had about 30 percent of matches time out. Guess what...each one of them had a lot of games that featured lots of deuce games, or more than likely they wouldn't have timed out!
 
90mins is enough time for a competitive 2 set match. Something like 7-5, 6-3.

2hrs is enough time for a 3 set match. If your matches are taking longer, you are taking too much time between points and changeovers and probably too much time between 1st and 2nd serves.

If you are still taking too much time, you simply play too slowly.

Nah, not true in my experience. Everyone in our league "gets" timed matches and seems to want to settle things on the court. I don't think I have ever had a match where I thought anyone was taking too much time, deliberately or otherwise (although I have seen some stalling in the last minutes of a match). It surely isn't because of socializing on changeovers -- opponents tend to keep to themselves until the match ends.

Matches tend to run long because the competitors are very close in ability, so they have a lot of deuces.

Another reason can be that the players are both pushers or defensive players. If no one is generating much offense or ending points and both are consistent, you can be in for a very long match. It is more common at lower levels for players to lack offense, so that is where you will see more timed matches, in my experience. And of course the singles players are much more likely to time out than the doubles players (which is probably why TFM and I time out much less than Topaz).

If you have a match that is 7-5, 6-3, you will be right up against the time limit, in my experience.

As to our tiebreak rules, they are as follows:

If fewer than two games are played in the second set, that set does not count and the winner of the first set is the winner of the match.

If two or more games are played in the second set and a team is leading by two games, that team is declared the winner of the second set.

For tiebreaks, you must get six points played and be leading by two for the tiebreak to count. If those requirements are not met, the tiebreak does not count.

When opponents split sets, you add up the total number of games won by each opponent. If it is a tie, you count up the total number of games won in the team match. If that doesn't break the tie, you may either spin a racket to determine the winner of the tied match or the captains can arrange a later time and place for a 10-point tiebreak.

My league doesn't have a sudden death format to break ties. Personally, I think that is the better rule. The whole point of team tennis is to determine the winner of the team match. Recall that I had a match time out at 6-3, 3-6 this season. My partner and I lost because the other team won far more games on the other courts (effectively blowing us out). That team finished the season tied for first place; had my partner and I won that single match on a sudden death fluke or let cord, it might have affected the final standings. It seems weird to have it come down to a sudden death tiebreak point when their team was clearly the superior team judging by the blow-outs on the other four courts, especially if the whole point of team play is to send the strongest teams to the playoffs.
 
90mins is enough time for a competitive 2 set match. Something like 7-5, 6-3.

2hrs is enough time for a 3 set match. If your matches are taking longer, you are taking too much time between points and changeovers and probably too much time between 1st and 2nd serves.

If you are still taking too much time, you simply play too slowly.

Sorry you don't seem to understand the concept of "competitive." Do you think NBC sets aside 5 hours of coverage on Wimbledon finals day anticipating the minimum 3-set men's match and 2-set women's match? They are planning - and most likely hoping - for the maximum tennis possible.

Since USTA takes our money with the promise of "competitive, yet fun" tennis, we should get at least a dab of the the same respect NBC gives the professionals. Sure, we're no where near their level, but we all play hard and push ourselves to the limit every time we play. Give us 2 hours to really test our abilities against the other players' abilities instead of testing our ability to read a clock.

Have a nice day. :)
 
Since people keep bringing up pro matches, lets take a look at some shall we

Wimbledon Ladies singles (I'm sure no one is playing best 3 out of 5)

Radwanska def Kuznetsova 6-4, 1-6, 7-5 in 2hrs and 4 mins.
Vaidisova def Chakvetadze 4-6, 7-6, 6-3 in 1hr 59mins
Jelena Jankovic def Wozniacki 2-6, 6-4, 6-2 in 2 hrs 6 mins

The 2 set matches are considerably shorter than these. (Check the stats for Serena and Venus's matches)

For people telling me I don't know what I'm talking about... try again.

I used to get timed out all the time. I would be timed out after a set and a half (these are courts for 1.5 hrs) and it wasn't until I figured I was taking too much time between points and especially on changeovers and talking too much :oops:.

I was taking way more than a minute and a half on changeovers and very slow between points and between first and second serves.

After having changed all that, I can't remember the last time I got timed out. I wrote a post about how I came back after losing the inaugural set 0-6 and won the next 2 sets 6-4, 6-3. That took just over 2 hrs (including warm up) And this was a match where I played tentatively. If you manage your time on court, you can get it done. After all, you are paying for the time. Make the most of it.

As for people mentioning pushers. You are making my case. They play too slow. It is unreasonable to expect tennis centers to extend court time because of pushers. They have to make money. Reserve 2 blocks of time if you are a pusher. I have no sympathy for you :twisted:.
 
I will concede that you may have been playing too slowly and wasting time. Good for you for deciding to be more efficient.

I think it is a mistake for you to assume everyone else who times out was wasting time. I don't even sit down on changeovers. Sometimes the players will agree not to change sides at changeovers. I spend zero minutes socializing with the opponent, especially in doubles.

And remember, the pros do not spend any time whatever chasing balls and dealing with balls rolling onto the court. That really slows things down, especially in singles. The number one reason that the time between points exceeds 20 seconds is ball retrieval, in my experience. Don't even get me started on how often you will be in the middle of a long point only to have a ball come rolling on the court, so a let must be played and costs you even more time.

Regarding pushers, no one is saying pushers should get more time. I was just explaining that why matches can time out for reasons other than unnecessarily slow play.
 
split step -- interesting hypothesis. i checked the men's matches at wimbledon that went three sets.

fed v hewitt lasted 1 hour 49 minutes.

nadal v youzhny lasted 2 hours 10 minutes.

cilic v clement lasted 1 hour 57 minutes.

i know in our leagues we get 90 minutes to play 2 sets with a 10-point tiebreaker in place of the third set.

i agree that some players just take too long between points and between changeovers. like the ones who sit down for 5-10 minutes either on changeovers or between sets and talk and talk come to mind.

the other part that makes matches take longer is that we don't have ballboys running around making our lives easier. fetching balls between points definitely makes our matches longer too.
 
i agree that some players just take too long between points and between changeovers. like the ones who sit down for 5-10 minutes either on changeovers or between sets and talk and talk come to mind.

I never sit down during a tennis match; it's a sign of weakness. I never talk during a tennis match; it's a waste of breath. :)

And it's too darn hard to get back up again. :cry:
 
Since people keep bringing up pro matches, lets take a look at some shall we

Wimbledon Ladies singles (I'm sure no one is playing best 3 out of 5)

Radwanska def Kuznetsova 6-4, 1-6, 7-5 in 2hrs and 4 mins.
Vaidisova def Chakvetadze 4-6, 7-6, 6-3 in 1hr 59mins
Jelena Jankovic def Wozniacki 2-6, 6-4, 6-2 in 2 hrs 6 mins

The 2 set matches are considerably shorter than these. (Check the stats for Serena and Venus's matches)

For people telling me I don't know what I'm talking about... try again.

<snip>

Hmmm... I wonder if having kids running to grab every loose ball makes a difference...

Nah...

-Matt
 
Of course the ball kids make a difference. Not only is someone else picking up the balls for the pros, they are actually sprinting to do it. Me, I don't sprint or even run to retrieve a ball. I walk, and so does everyone else.

Also, you have to consider that the balls are traveling at least twice as fast (or maybe three times as fast?) for each shot a pro hits compared to one of us. Not only that, but I watched Venus' match today. There were hardly any 10-shot rallies, 'cause they get down to business. Matches at 3.5 ladies have huge numbers of 10-shot rallies, and I remember my own 2.5 ladies singles pushfests were endless.

There goes the time.
 
Of course the ball kids make a difference. Not only is someone else picking up the balls for the pros, they are actually sprinting to do it. Me, I don't sprint or even run to retrieve a ball. I walk, and so does everyone else.

Also, you have to consider that the balls are traveling at least twice as fast (or maybe three times as fast?) for each shot a pro hits compared to one of us. Not only that, but I watched Venus' match today. There were hardly any 10-shot rallies, 'cause they get down to business. Matches at 3.5 ladies have huge numbers of 10-shot rallies, and I remember my own 2.5 ladies singles pushfests were endless.

There goes the time.

Most of the 3.5/4.0 matches around here don't have a ton of 10 shot rallies... I would doubt that I have more than 6 or 8 10 shot rallies during a 3 set match.

A lot of time is spent gathering the balls. I think it's impossible to fit 3 competitive sets in to 90 minutes. It can even be difficult to fit 2 competitive sets in 90 minutes.

I wish we had 120 minutes for singles, but I can understand the courts need to make money.

-Matt
 
Hmmm... I wonder if having kids running to grab every loose ball makes a difference...

Nah...

-Matt

:rolleyes:
I wasn't the one who kept mentioning pro matches. I introduced the numbers to those who were trying to say pro matches were longer.
And balls don't have much to do with it. Unless you spray balls all over the place.
You hit a winner in the corner, your opponent hits the ball right back to you, next point.
 
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