Quick question on pronation

[dgold44]

I think this answer is obvious

When u pronate right before serve contact with the ball
Is the reason why the strings turn out or face the opposite direction simply a byproduct of the rotational energy of pronation
So before strings face left then after pronation they face out to right

All byproduct of rotational energy right ???

 

[user92626]

I think I just found my new sleep aids. Reading your post 3x.

 

[dct693]

I think this answer is obvious

When u pronate right before serve contact with the ball
Is the reason why the strings turn out or face the opposite direction simply a byproduct of the rotational energy of pronation
So before strings face left then after pronation they face out to right

All byproduct of rotational energy right ???

Yes, just like finishing your forehand with the racquet over your opposite shoulder on the forehand is a byproduct. Why do you ask?

 

[Raul_SJ]

I think this answer is obvious

When u pronate right before serve contact with the ball
Is the reason why the strings turn out or face the opposite direction simply a byproduct of the rotational energy of pronation
So before strings face left then after pronation they face out to right

All byproduct of rotational energy right ???

Correct. The forearm is rapidly rotating. Pronation is rotation of the forearm.

At the "Big L" position, the strings are facing left, the racket is on edge, the forearm then rotates 90 degrees to square the strings to the ball. The forearm continues to rotate 90 degrees after contact and the strings are facing right. There is a full 180 degrees of forearm rotation (pronation).

Below is Ian's Pronation video of ATP Pro Tim Smyczek hitting a flat serve.

 

[dct693]

Nice video Raul_SJ.

dgold44, I should point out that this pronation during contact happens during the flat and slice serves NOT the kick serve.

 

[Tennisanity]

Correct. The forearm is rapidly rotating. Pronation is rotation of the forearm.

At the "Big L" position, the strings are facing left, the racket is on edge, the forearm then rotates 90 degrees to square the strings to the ball. The forearm continues to rotate 90 degrees after contact and the strings are facing right. There is a full 180 degrees of forearm rotation (pronation).

Below is Ian's Pronation video of ATP Pro Tim Smyczek hitting a flat serve.

Interesting, don't really see a big L here.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Interesting, don't really see a big L here.

I took the key checkpoints for the "Big L" position on a flat serve to be where the racket butt faces the net, the racket is on edge to the ball, and the forearm to racket angle is roughly 90 degrees. The server is then ready to pronate 90 degrees to square the strings to the ball.

Smyczek's position is much more flexed at the elbow than Nalbandian's "Big L", but not sure what the significance, if any, is of this.

I

 

[Tennisanity]

I took the key checkpoints for the "Big L" position on a flat serve to be where the racket butt faces the net, the racket is on edge to the ball, and the forearm to racket angle is roughly 90 degrees. The server is then ready to pronate 90 degrees to square the strings to the ball.

Smyczek's position is much more flexed at the elbow than Nalbandian's "Big L", but not sure what the significance, if any, is of this.

I

Yeah not sure if there is any significance other than Smyczek's position not technically being a 'big L'.

 

[Gazelle]

You don't deliberately pronate, if that's what you mean OP. Strings facing to the right after contact should happen automatically.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Yeah not sure if there is any significance other than Smyczek's position not technically being a 'big L'.

Are you saying Smyczek never reaches a "Big L" position on his flat serve?

 

[Tennisanity]

Are you saying Smyczek never reaches a "Big L" position on his flat serve?

I'm not sure, maybe the frame rate was just not high enough. But based on the gif above, I saw no Big L for Smyczek.

 

[Raul_SJ]

I'm not sure, maybe the frame rate was just not high enough. But based on the gif above, I saw no Big L for Smyczek.

My understanding is that every pro server gets to that "Big L" position, so either Smycek gets to that position and the video frame rate did not pick it up, or Smyczek does not reach that "Big L" position.


Check the high frame rate video of Smyczek flat serve here at 03:50.

 

[Tennisanity]

My understanding is that every pro server gets to that "Big L" position, so either Smycek gets to that position and the video frame rate did not pick it up, or Smyczek does not reach that "Big L" position.


Check the high frame rate video of Smyczek flat serve here at 03:50.

Surprising. I looked there too and no big L on the flat serve. In his case he's pronating the racquet before the arm is fully extended.

 

[dgold44]

Yes, just like finishing your forehand with the racquet over your opposite shoulder on the forehand is a byproduct. Why do you ask?

Because My understanding of physics could be better and I was trying to explain this to a doubter
It really adds on extra power if u do it

 

[dgold44]

Correct. The forearm is rapidly rotating. Pronation is rotation of the forearm.

At the "Big L" position, the strings are facing left, the racket is on edge, the forearm then rotates 90 degrees to square the strings to the ball. The forearm continues to rotate 90 degrees after contact and the strings are facing right. There is a full 180 degrees of forearm rotation (pronation).

Below is Ian's Pronation video of ATP Pro Tim Smyczek hitting a flat serve.

Raul
U know more than majority of instructors
Good answer
I will be watching you lol

I figured the guy in red shorts was not a club player lol

 

[Raul_SJ]

Surprising. I looked there too and no big L on the flat serve. In his case he's pronating the racquet before the arm is fully extended.

Apparently, the extended arm is not a requisite for "Big L". It may or may not be extended. The important checkpoints are strings facing side fence and racket approaching on edge.

Hi Tech site shows a pro player's so-called "Big L" position.

The player on the right, Florent Serra, demonstrates the perfect "Big L" Position right before impact. His strings face the side fence in this final frame, and the edge of his racket runs parallel to the ground.

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/waiter_student.php​

 

[Tennisanity]

Apparently, the extended arm is not a requisite for "Big L". It may or may not be extended. The important checkpoints are strings facing right and racket approaching on edge.

Hi Tech site shows a pro player's so-called "Big L" position.

The player on the right, Florent Serra, demonstrates the perfect "Big L" Position right before impact. His strings face the side fence in this final frame, and the edge of his racket runs parallel to the ground.

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/waiter_student.php​

According to the Nalbandian image, the Big L definition includes an extended arm, so I agree the Big L may be a bit of a misnomer if an extended arm is not required as demonstrated by Smyczek.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Raul
U know more than majority of instructors
Good answer
I will be watching you lol

I figured the guy in red shorts was not a club player lol

Sorry. I made a mistake in my reply. It is true that the racket does rotate 180 degrees in the above Gif (strings starting off facing left and ending up facing right). However, the human pronation range of motion is only ~90 degrees from the neutral position, so the Gif Title "180 degrees of pronation" is wrong.

I think the player pronates 90 degrees from the "Big L" position (strings facing left, wrist in ~neutral anatomical position) to contact (strings facing the net). After contact, the racket continues to rotate an additional 90 degrees (strings facing right).

The additional 90 degrees racket rotation after contact is accomplished by ??. ISR?Supination?

I think others like Chas_Tennis can answer this anatomical question better.

 

[Raul_SJ]

According to the Nalbandian image, the Big L definition includes an extended arm, so I agree the Big L may be a bit of a misnomer if an extended arm is not required as demonstrated by Smyczek.

The Nalbandian image (straight arm Big L) and the Serra image (flexed arm Big L) are all from the same Hi Tech instructional site. So both variations are acceptable for "Big L".

In any case, I had never noticed whether the arm was fully extended on the "Big L". The important checkpoints I looked at were butt cap facing towards the net, strings facing side fence and racket edge approximately parallel to the ground.

 

[Tennisanity]

It should then just be called 'L' position. I think Smyczek is the only guy I've seen with a Little L. Any others?

 

[dgold44]

Sorry. I made a mistake in my reply. It is true that the racket does rotate 180 degrees in the above Gif (strings starting off facing left and ending up facing right). However, the human pronation range of motion is only ~90 degrees from the neutral position, so the Gif Title "180 degrees of pronation" is wrong.

I think the player pronates 90 degrees from the "Big L" position (strings facing left, wrist in ~neutral anatomical position) to contact (strings facing the net). After contact, the racket continues to rotate an additional 90 degrees (strings facing right).

The additional 90 degrees racket rotation after contact is accomplished by ??. ISR?Supination?

I think others like Chas_Tennis can answer this anatomical question better.

I know what u mean ... but easier to think of it in your original post

 

[GuyClinch]

Smycek might have not timed that flat perfectly.. so he didn't hit a perfect big L... You could use a lot of ISR but the ball is too low near contact so you can't extend fully out..