Racism in tennis and country clubs?

jinsol

New User
In the book Tennis Confidential theres an interivew with Arthur Ashe and they talk about tennis clubs "that have discriminatory memebership policies". They go on to talk about racism that have unspoken or sometimes outspoken rules/policies against blacks, Jews, Asians, etc.

Do you think this problem is still existent? Sometimes when I used to go to a particular country club, I felt that there was some degree of animosity to me and maybe some favoritism to the Caucasians. I stopped going after a while. So does anyone have any stories or possibilities of this?
 

Photoshop

Professional
Is this a rhetorical question? Do I think racism still exists? Yeah sure... is it just at tennis clubs? probably not. Personally, I do not want to live in a completely color-blind world.
 

jinsol

New User
well duh i know racism still exists but thanks for pointing out that technicality

i guess what im asking is do you know if you or anyone you know has been discriminated against, treated unfairly or just been refused admission to a country club for tennis?
 

35ft6

Legend
^ They can't have signs that flat out spell out what kind of people they're never going to allow, but they'll find ways to keep women, minorities, gay people, poor people, whoever they don't want out.

Basically, you want to get right down to it, just create a yearbook of all of the nation's Senators and CEO's. You'll quickly see they're overwhelmingly white males. Whether you choose to believe this is just a coincidence or indicative of social forces at play is up to you, and will be largely determined, in my experience, by how much you look these people.
 

kingdaddy41788

Hall of Fame
What bothers me is that if it was an all-african-american club or an all-asian club, etc. it would be okay. It's only racism when white people are given preference, right?
 

kingdaddy41788

Hall of Fame
^ They can't have signs that flat out spell out what kind of people they're never going to allow, but they'll find ways to keep women, minorities, gay people, poor people, whoever they don't want out.

Basically, you want to get right down to it, just create a yearbook of all of the nation's Senators and CEO's. You'll quickly see they're overwhelmingly white males. Whether you choose to believe this is just a coincidence or indicative of social forces at play is up to you, and will be largely determined, in my experience, by how much you look these people.

Well, most people that run are white males, right? And a very large proportion of the population is white males, right? Trying to start civil discussion, not a verbal brawl.
 

superman1

Legend
Are you sure about that? I was always under the impression that, for example, clubs in college that are for one race in particular, like "African American Club" or "Filipino Club," have to accept everyone who joins regardless of race. You can't discriminate like that no matter what race you are.

I guarantee you that in some clubs, there is discrimination. They might accept you in, but that doesn't mean they will play with you. Racism is still rampant, it's just under the breath and indirect these days.
 

35ft6

Legend
What bothers me is that if it was an all-african-american club or an all-asian club, etc. it would be okay. It's only racism when white people are given preference, right?
There's some truth to this, but it's almost like this thread I read where this straight guy got upset because he wasn't allowed into a lesbian bar with his female friends, yelling it was discrimanatory. In a way, straight bars is the default, every bar is a straight bar. For the most part no straight bar has to point out they're straight, with straight nights, serving a straight clientèle. So straight people have a wealth of options and it seems kind of childish to go a lesbian bar and get indignant for not being let in when you're a straight man trying to go into a place that's a sort of refuge for homosexual females.

Likewise, America is for the most part, in ways that matter, for white males (I'm talking white MALES, not just all white people). If non-white males want to create a place for themselves, seeing as how almost every other noteworthy thing caters to people unlike themselves, to me that's sort of understandable.
Well, most people that run are white males, right?
And that's symptomatic of the same problem. Running for big offices takes a lot of money. We've never had a President who wasn't a white christian male. Safe to say diversity is still an issue.
And a very large proportion of the population is white males, right?
75% of US population is white (non-hispanic white), so I guess white males are 37.5% of the population if we assume men and women are 50/50 split. But the Senate is probably at least 80% white male. If somebody can link the latest statistical makeup of the Senate that would be awesome. The stats I found show that women make up 14% of the Senate, despite actually being more than 50% of the population.

To people who say "well, they deserve it! they won their elections! there's nothing funny going on in terms of sexism and racism!" it's going to be interesting to see if they change their opinion on that as the nation becomes ever more Hispanic.
 
There's obviously all Asian clubs in Japan. Asian countries are some of the most homogeneous countries there are. Hardly welcoming to outsiders.

Most people join clubs to play tennis, golf, socialize and relax. Most don't want to be a minority at a club they belong to. Isn't it normal for folks to hang with people similar to themselves.

I know of predominately jewish country clubs where white non-jewish folks couldn;t get in if they tried.

How about black fraternities in colleges. Most whites except for a few wannabees wouldn;t feel right in that environment.

As far as the establishment goes. Congress is slowly changing with the demographics of the country. Compare the composition of congress not to the current population demographics but to what they were 10 or 20 years ago.

Monorities, especially hispanics an Asians are rapidly becoming americanized. As the numbers of successful minority business owners and professionals increase, you will certainly see their ranks in the congress grow.

Please stop trying to prove America is full of bigots. It's not. America is the most successful integrated country in existence. There simply is no other country where whites, blacks, hispanics, indians, asians, christians, jews, and muslims, and atheists coexist peacefully as they do here in the US.

My biggest concern is the recent tendency towards a lack of assimilation into american culture by newer immigrants. I'm afraid that new americans are isolating themselves into distinct groups as opposed to assimilating as individuals into american society as they have historically. They are hangining on to their own language, culture, values without learning english and participating in American cultural norms. This prevents them blending into the "melting pot".

Liberals constant pleas for tolerance of language and culture impeads the very diversity and assimilation that they desire. Immigrants that can come here and read their own language newspaper, read street signs in their own language, and stay in their own isolated communities don't need to learn english and american culture to subsist. They can do menial work and do just fine at the lower economic tier of society. However, unless they adapt and learn english, they won't assimilate into american society at a level to succeed in business and gain political office.

What good is a society where the citizens stay in distinct groups based on individual religion, race and language? It's a recipie for disaster. Look at the muslim problems in France and Great Britain. Muslims there were not encouraged to assimilate into the common cultures of the country. They are isolated into poor isolated communities and are viewed as aliens shun by the general population. Isolation of groups in societies is bad. It breeds civil unrest. Assimilation should be encouraged so that individuals as oppposed to groups win or lose on their own individual merit as opposed to what group they are in. American culture is based on self reliance and individual achievement. We need to preserve that or we'll end up with a welfare society with low productivity, civil unrest, high taxes, whining population. Where the masses of underachieving slugs expect the government to take care of them. Kinda like France!



The overtolerance and
 
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my country club used to be like this. I remember when i was little there wasnt a single black family at the club. Im sure it wasnt because the club rejected them, but rather they didnt apply.

Club fees used to be quite steep. In recent years the dues have been cut and i have noticed a few more black families. I personally have no problem with it.

In general i dont think that it happens very often. I think that some bigger turn offs for ethnic families include steep membership prices etc.
 

ktownva

Semi-Pro
Have you done this? Share your experience.

Yes, and I have a few interesting details. Nothing quite as scary as what Venus and Serena faced (dodging bullets and stuff).

Courtside during a match, a hooker? and her pimp?/john? were arguing loudly. When we looked over, they stopped arguing, and began to talk smack at us. We ignored them but they continued to heckle us for about 20 minutes.

During a match, hood kids on bikes snatched my partner's tennis bag and pedaled off. We gave chase and luckily they dropped the bag.

Same kids later wheeled onto the court, snatched our tennis balls and pedaled off. This time they didn't drop the loot.
 

ktownva

Semi-Pro
^ Did this happen often? Why did you go there? Just curious.

It happened a couple of times. I was young, broke, in college, they were the only courts available. I never felt in any physical danger, there were other tennis players around. But it was a lot different than the clubs I play at now.
 

35ft6

Legend
Please stop trying to prove America is full of bigots. It's not.
Nobody said it was. At worst, some are saying bigotry still exists in America.
America is the most successful integrated country in existence. There simply is no other country where whites, blacks, hispanics, indians, asians, christians, jews, and muslims, and atheists coexist peacefully as they do here in the US.
In the spirit of not generalizing, there are places within America that have learned to co-exist better than others. America is a big country.
My biggest concern is the recent tendency towards a lack of assimilation into american culture by newer immigrants.
I agree with you somewhat, but at the same time America gives you the freedom to create your own niche, and having lived in NYC, I know for a fact that Little Italy and Chinatown have been around for a while. Also, American culture is a huge mish mash of different immigrant cultures, so really it's just more of the same.
Liberals constant pleas for tolerance of language and culture impeads the very diversity and assimilation that they desire. Immigrants that can come here and read their own language newspaper, read street signs in their own language, and stay in their own isolated communities don't need to learn english and american culture to subsist. They can do menial work and do just fine at the lower economic tier of society. However, unless they adapt and learn english, they won't assimilate into american society at a level to succeed in business and gain political office.
I'm willing to be proven otherwise if you can show me some statistics, but I think you're talking mostly about first generation immigrants. Their children don't have this problem. What you're describing, older people refusing to learn new tricks, manifests in all sorts of different ways. Just ask my mom who's never sent an email or even glanced at the internet.
What good is a society where the citizens stay in distinct groups based on individual religion, race and language? It's a recipie for disaster. Look at the muslim problems in France and Great Britain. Muslims there were not encouraged to assimilate into the common cultures of the country. They are isolated into poor isolated communities and are viewed as aliens shun by the general population. Isolation of groups in societies is bad.
I agree with you more than not. Muslims are an extreme example because of their religious laws, which are sometimes completely at odds with the laws of the nation they've migrated to.

But in less extreme examples, the American experience IMO can be elevated economically and culturally by people who don't want to completely assimilate, Los Angeles' Koreatown and Little Tokyo being two such examples.
American culture is based on self reliance and individual achievement.
Then what do you care what immigrants do? Just worry about yourself.
We need to preserve that or we'll end up with a welfare society with low productivity, civil unrest, high taxes, whining population. Where the masses of underachieving slugs expect the government to take care of them. Kinda like France!
Yeah? What's going on in France?

I also hear conservatives talking about America being founded on Christian principles, and I'm pretty sure Jesus wasn't an "every man for themselves" kind of guy. I'm glad we put that to rest since I'm also sure Jesus would have rather funded health care and charity for the poor, and not the military industrial complex.
 

goober

Legend
The country clubs I have visited that had no minorities tend have very steep membership fees. Even though I could probably afford to join some of these clubs, I wouldn't simply because all the players were in the 50-70 year old range and honestly I did not see any good players there. It is just paying huge amounts of money to play senior doubles among people who were as well off as you. Most of the younger, better players (4.0-5.0) I have found are at tennis clubs with regular fees or public tennis clubs.
 

kingdaddy41788

Hall of Fame
There's obviously all Asian clubs in Japan. Asian countries are some of the most homogeneous countries there are. Hardly welcoming to outsiders.

Most people join clubs to play tennis, golf, socialize and relax. Most don't want to be a minority at a club they belong to. Isn't it normal for folks to hang with people similar to themselves.

I know of predominately jewish country clubs where white non-jewish folks couldn;t get in if they tried.

How about black fraternities in colleges. Most whites except for a few wannabees wouldn;t feel right in that environment.

As far as the establishment goes. Congress is slowly changing with the demographics of the country. Compare the composition of congress not to the current population demographics but to what they were 10 or 20 years ago.

Monorities, especially hispanics an Asians are rapidly becoming americanized. As the numbers of successful minority business owners and professionals increase, you will certainly see their ranks in the congress grow.

Please stop trying to prove America is full of bigots. It's not. America is the most successful integrated country in existence. There simply is no other country where whites, blacks, hispanics, indians, asians, christians, jews, and muslims, and atheists coexist peacefully as they do here in the US.


My biggest concern is the recent tendency towards a lack of assimilation into american culture by newer immigrants. I'm afraid that new americans are isolating themselves into distinct groups as opposed to assimilating as individuals into american society as they have historically. They are hangining on to their own language, culture, values without learning english and participating in American cultural norms. This prevents them blending into the "melting pot".

Liberals constant pleas for tolerance of language and culture impeads the very diversity and assimilation that they desire. Immigrants that can come here and read their own language newspaper, read street signs in their own language, and stay in their own isolated communities don't need to learn english and american culture to subsist. They can do menial work and do just fine at the lower economic tier of society. However, unless they adapt and learn english, they won't assimilate into american society at a level to succeed in business and gain political office.

What good is a society where the citizens stay in distinct groups based on individual religion, race and language? It's a recipie for disaster. Look at the muslim problems in France and Great Britain. Muslims there were not encouraged to assimilate into the common cultures of the country. They are isolated into poor isolated communities and are viewed as aliens shun by the general population. Isolation of groups in societies is bad. It breeds civil unrest. Assimilation should be encouraged so that individuals as oppposed to groups win or lose on their own individual merit as opposed to what group they are in. American culture is based on self reliance and individual achievement. We need to preserve that or we'll end up with a welfare society with low productivity, civil unrest, high taxes, whining population. Where the masses of underachieving slugs expect the government to take care of them. Kinda like France!

I was in London a few weeks ago and I would argue that it could be the most international city in the world. Much more "integrated" than here or anywhere else I've been.
 

LuckyR

Legend
I was in London a few weeks ago and I would argue that it could be the most international city in the world. Much more "integrated" than here or anywhere else I've been.

That may be so, but he said: "America is the most successful integrated country in existence".

Last I checked London is a city, not a country. England (like all of Europe) has much worse racial issues than the US.
 

tennishead93

Semi-Pro
why is it that when a white dude says something bad about another race but when a black dude says something bad about another race it is not as bad? i mean its not like we live in the 1940's anymore.this is coming form a short indian kid
 

jinsol

New User
you know there was an article in Time magazine about that. It was about Imus and how far can one go. They had examples of people who said quotes about lesbians ruining golf, mel gibson talking about Jews, and others and how much controversy it had created. Then they had an example of Chris Rock using a rude term to talk about black people, and he had caused little or no controvery.

Ill see if i can find the article
 

ollinger

G.O.A.T.
A study published perhaps twenty years ago put several different strains of rats in a large cage and observed their behavior. Their outward appearances were the same but they were from about half a dozen genetic groups. It was observed that those of the same strain seemed to cluster together. I'm not sure people are so different. Many people seem to have a higher comfort level with others they perceive to be more like themselves, and seem to prefer their leisure to be that way. A state park near my home is popular with various ethnic groups that come up from NYC on weekends and use the place essentially as their country club. It is well known to all which areas around the lake are used by blacks, which by asians, which by hispanics, which by Haitian blacks, which by Dominicans, etc., etc. For the most part, people still seem to be most comfortable with those they consider their own.
 

StealthGnome

Semi-Pro
why is it that when a white dude says something bad about another race but when a black dude says something bad about another race it is not as bad? i mean its not like we live in the 1940's anymore.this is coming form a short indian kid

You should never say ANYTHING based on another persons race, regardless of your own.
I don't know where you are going with this.
 

richw76

Rookie
I'm black, and My father is in a Historically black fraternity. There were a few white/other brothers in his chapter, and he is still friends with them. Also, I've seen myself in college, and here in bars. If there is a white person there if they relax and just be themselves a predominantly black crowd will not just tolerate but will truely embrace the person and go out of their way to make him feel comfortable, I've seen this many times. Of course, that doesn't mean one or two jokes won't be told at his expense but it's friendly and all in fun, and everyone has a good time.

In todays world I'd say classism is more prevalent than racism, as far as CC, etc. go. Being in Atlanta perhaps it's a little different since there are many black people with very high income.

and to 35ft6 I agree 100%. I'm in IT. a few years ago I used to travel heavily as a sales engineer and trainer. It stopped surprising me that no matter where I went, but especially mid-west. If I went to a fortune 500 company the IT deparment would be diverse, but every Manager/Director/CTO was white, When I was in shops with 10 or less people. 19 times out of 20 everyone would be a white male. In that 1 out of 20 shop there would be one or two either woman or minorities doing low level work, like help desk. I had a hard time believing that consistantly there was so little diversity in the qualified hiring pool. Not to say the Hiring managers were "Racist" but how does that happen?
 

caesar66

Professional
There's obviously all Asian clubs in Japan. Asian countries are some of the most homogeneous countries there are. Hardly welcoming to outsiders.

Most people join clubs to play tennis, golf, socialize and relax. Most don't want to be a minority at a club they belong to. Isn't it normal for folks to hang with people similar to themselves.

I know of predominately jewish country clubs where white non-jewish folks couldn;t get in if they tried.

How about black fraternities in colleges. Most whites except for a few wannabees wouldn;t feel right in that environment.

As far as the establishment goes. Congress is slowly changing with the demographics of the country. Compare the composition of congress not to the current population demographics but to what they were 10 or 20 years ago.

Monorities, especially hispanics an Asians are rapidly becoming americanized. As the numbers of successful minority business owners and professionals increase, you will certainly see their ranks in the congress grow.

Please stop trying to prove America is full of bigots. It's not. America is the most successful integrated country in existence. There simply is no other country where whites, blacks, hispanics, indians, asians, christians, jews, and muslims, and atheists coexist peacefully as they do here in the US.

My biggest concern is the recent tendency towards a lack of assimilation into american culture by newer immigrants. I'm afraid that new americans are isolating themselves into distinct groups as opposed to assimilating as individuals into american society as they have historically. They are hangining on to their own language, culture, values without learning english and participating in American cultural norms. This prevents them blending into the "melting pot".
Liberals constant pleas for tolerance of language and culture impeads the very diversity and assimilation that they desire. Immigrants that can come here and read their own language newspaper, read street signs in their own language, and stay in their own isolated communities don't need to learn english and american culture to subsist. They can do menial work and do just fine at the lower economic tier of society. However, unless they adapt and learn english, they won't assimilate into american society at a level to succeed in business and gain political office.

What good is a society where the citizens stay in distinct groups based on individual religion, race and language? It's a recipie for disaster. Look at the muslim problems in France and Great Britain. Muslims there were not encouraged to assimilate into the common cultures of the country. They are isolated into poor isolated communities and are viewed as aliens shun by the general population. Isolation of groups in societies is bad. It breeds civil unrest. Assimilation should be encouraged so that individuals as oppposed to groups win or lose on their own individual merit as opposed to what group they are in. American culture is based on self reliance and individual achievement. We need to preserve that or we'll end up with a welfare society with low productivity, civil unrest, high taxes, whining population. Where the masses of underachieving slugs expect the government to take care of them. Kinda like France!



The overtolerance and

Racism is still very present in America. While I'll agree that its better here than most places, its ideas that immigrants should ASSIMILATE that propogate racism. Melting pot, to me, is not the ideal; if you are added to the melting pot, you melt away from your culture and join dominant culture, which is mainly WHITE culture. America should be an "ethnic salad"; all people keep their cultures but become part of something bigger and different that has its own value. Immigrants shouldnt have to lose their culture when coming to the US.
There is a difference in acculturation and assimilation. assimilation is completely shunning one's own culture in favor of a dominant one; it leads to guilt and self hate. Acculturation is keeping the key aspects of one's own culture and adopting the aspects of the dominant culture that are required to be successful in that society. This is what we should seek with our immigrants and with minorities in the states; rather than asking people to leave their groups, celebrate multiculturalism and the fact that America can be successful and made up of different cultures. Now I will say that learning English should be considered one of those factors of the dominant culture that immigrants should adopt; its how we communicate even across cultures here, and people should learn it. but to ask someone who comes here to have a better life to leave all that has made them who they are at the door and come in bare of these things is unfair. We do it all the time though; we have this idea that we're all "Americans" and humans, and that colorblindness and assimilation should be where its at. In reality, these Euro-American (white) ideals further demean and oppress minorities. These ideals are well intentioned; they seek unity and harmony in society. but they are unintentionally racist; they seek unity and harmony that requires diverse cultures to give up their cultures and adopt white culture, so that these people can "function" in white society. Its called unintentional racism, and its far more dangerous to minorities and to society as a whole than hooded men riding horses.
I dont doubt that there is racism in tennis clubs. I'd say as far as membership is concerned, theres more emphasis on socioeconomic status; keep the poor out, the prestigious in. If the prestigious are of a different race, all the better; these clubs can get their "minority" quota. but I'd also be willing to bet that minority members of prestigious tennis clubs see racism from the oblivious whites that run the clubs.
 

richw76

Rookie
Racism is still very present in America. While I'll agree that its better here than most places, its ideas that immigrants should ASSIMILATE that propogate racism. Melting pot, to me, is not the ideal; if you are added to the melting pot, you melt away from your culture and join dominant culture, which is mainly WHITE culture. America should be an "ethnic salad"; all people keep their cultures but become part of something bigger and different that has its own value. Immigrants shouldnt have to lose their culture when coming to the US.
There is a difference in acculturation and assimilation. assimilation is completely shunning one's own culture in favor of a dominant one; it leads to guilt and self hate. Acculturation is keeping the key aspects of one's own culture and adopting the aspects of the dominant culture that are required to be successful in that society. This is what we should seek with our immigrants and with minorities in the states; rather than asking people to leave their groups, celebrate multiculturalism and the fact that America can be successful and made up of different cultures. Now I will say that learning English should be considered one of those factors of the dominant culture that immigrants should adopt; its how we communicate even across cultures here, and people should learn it. but to ask someone who comes here to have a better life to leave all that has made them who they are at the door and come in bare of these things is unfair. We do it all the time though; we have this idea that we're all "Americans" and humans, and that colorblindness and assimilation should be where its at. In reality, these Euro-American (white) ideals further demean and oppress minorities. These ideals are well intentioned; they seek unity and harmony in society. but they are unintentionally racist; they seek unity and harmony that requires diverse cultures to give up their cultures and adopt white culture, so that these people can "function" in white society. Its called unintentional racism, and its far more dangerous to minorities and to society as a whole than hooded men riding horses.
I dont doubt that there is racism in tennis clubs. I'd say as far as membership is concerned, theres more emphasis on socioeconomic status; keep the poor out, the prestigious in. If the prestigious are of a different race, all the better; these clubs can get their "minority" quota. but I'd also be willing to bet that minority members of prestigious tennis clubs see racism from the oblivious whites that run the clubs.

I couldn't agree more. The funniest thing to me is how people say those F'ing <fill in the blank> they should learn english. The thing is people aren't stupid. They know English is the dominant language in the US. If you want any level of success you need to learn english. Education is always important in immigrant homes, because lets be frank no parent wants there kids to lay sod, or tar a roof if they can be a doctor.

You don't have to "Force" people to learn english because if they have the ability they want the american dream.

An example. My lawn guy. I started with him 7 years ago. He spoke almost no english, but he did a great job and worked hard for a good price..... 7 years later He speaks perfect english, has a successful landscape company and has 6 or 7 trucks/crews. He probably hasn't done a lawn in 2 years now.
 

richw76

Rookie
and yeah Caesar66 the "unintentional racism" is the killer since it affects the economic base. My wife is from a small south ga town. Unless you are a doctor/lawyer/business owner, the only good jobs are in manufacturing. They have several factories. You get a factory job out of high school you can have a good life. Nice house, new car, blah, blah. There are several minority/women supervisors but my wifes cousin said at manager and above there is one black guy and two latin. They are engineers and were hired and relocated to Albany.......

Every few years a terrible story will come out of blatant racism. Like when the shinheads killed the guy by dragging him behind a car or even the whole denny's thing etc, It always makes me smile how the only people that are Genuinely surprised are white people.

As a minority I'm again disapointed but certainly not surprised.
 
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