Racket drop on edge or with open face

Curious

Curious

Talk Tennis Guru
This has been one of my obsessions over the years. I know most people don't think it's important but I do. I said here many times that I believe racket not moving on edge passing the trophy position and during the drop is a flaw, and yes even though Sampras and Federer do it! Anyway this thread is not about whether it's important or not. Im my opinion it's somewhat similar to a waiter's tray serve problem. It's about a misinterpretation by the brain in that you want to keep the racket open as that's where you will hit the ball with, not with the edge of the frame. For those who don't like open racket drop, who wonder why it happens and how to fix it, I made this video. In the first two serves you see my racket drops with an open string face to the sky. After that the only thing I changed is the intention to hit the ball with the edge of the frame, I mean I didn't try to drop it on edge but interestingly enough it automatically drops on edge. I find this amazing. So I keep practicing with this, hitting the ball with the edge, then after many repetitions I add pronation at the last moment to square up the string face to the ball and hit a real serve. Let me see if I'm the only one obsessed with this ugly racket drop issue.


 
Curious said:
This has been one of my obsessions over the years. I know most people don't think it's important but I do. I said here many times that I believe racket not moving on edge passing the trophy position and during the drop is a flaw, and yes even though Sampras and Federer do it! Anyway this thread is not about whether it's important or not. Im my opinion it's somewhat similar to a waiter's tray serve problem. It's about a misinterpretation by the brain in that you want to keep the racket open as that's where you will hit the ball with, not with the edge of the frame. For those who don't like open racket drop, who wonder why it happens and how to fix it, I made this video. In the first two serves you see my racket drops with an open string face to the sky. After that the only thing I changed is the intention to hit the ball with the edge of the frame, I mean I didn't try to drop it on edge but interestingly enough it automatically drops on edge. I find this amazing. So I keep practicing with this, hitting the ball with the edge, then after many repetitions I add pronation at the last moment to square up the string face to the ball and hit a real serve. Let me see if I'm the only one obsessed with this ugly racket drop issue.


Click to expand...
It looks to me like you are using a grip that is a little toward eastern forehand from continental, and that is the cause of your fugly racquet drop. Most top pro servers have a grip slightly toward the backhand grip from continental.
 
Question. Maybe not directly related to the drop, but when you get to trophy position, just before drop happens, some pros have strings facing the net and other pros have strings facing the side fence like Fed below.

This is a function of ???.


snake poems funny
 
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travlerajm said:
It looks to me like you are using a grip that is a little toward eastern forehand from continental, and that is the cause of your fugly racquet drop. Most top pro servers have a grip slightly toward the backhand grip from continental.
Click to expand...
I'm using the same grip on all of those serves in the video, which is continental by description ie both the first knuckle and the heel pad on bevel two.
 
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Raul_SJ said:
Question. Maybe not directly related to the drop, but when you get to trophy position, just before drop happens, some pros have strings facing the net and other pros have strings facing the side fence.

This is a function of ???.
Click to expand...
The degree of supination at that point.
 
Curious said:
After that the only thing I changed is the intention to hit the ball with the edge of the frame, I mean I didn't try to drop it on edge but interestingly enough it automatically drops on edge. I find this amazing.
Click to expand...

:unsure:

I always try to think of hitting the edge and pronating at the last instant. But always thought of it as an issue on the way up... Not clear if it would commonly cause a change on the way down. Although in your case it did and use whatever produces result ... But not convinced it would apply generally as a fix for the drop and why it would even relate...
 
Raul_SJ said:
:unsure:

I always try to think of hitting the edge and pronating at the last instant. But always thought of it as an issue on the way up... Not clear if it would commonly cause a change on the way down. Although in your case it did and use whatever produces result ... But not convinced it would apply generally as a fix for the drop and why it would even relate...
Click to expand...
I feel it's smoother movement if it's on edge, also you get more left to right swing before going up into throwing at the ball, which might be adding to pace.
 
Happi said:
@Curious here is a good video for you. I think the two ways of racquet drop is kind of like the two ways of stance (PP vs PF), it is a personal preference.

Click to expand...
I doubt it. If it's just a personal preference why do so many coaches keep saying you should drop the racket on edge, you should keep the palm down while passing through trophy position, ' the salute or combing the hair' tips etc?
 
Raul_SJ said:
Not clear if it would commonly cause a change on the way down.
Click to expand...
“Way down” shouldn’t be a separate part in your mind, it should be integral part of your full body motion towards the hit. If you visualize and intend in such a manner, it’s quite conclusive that aiming to swing up edge-on makes difference for the drop.
Long story short, it works not just for @Curious.
 
Curious said:
I doubt it. If it's just a personal preference why do so many coaches keep saying you should drop the racket on edge, you should keep the palm down while passing through trophy position, ' the salute or combing the hair' tips etc?
Click to expand...

Different online youtube coaches tells a lot of conflicting stuff, and sometimes it can be hard to tell the good stuff from the bad. Go to the paid sites of Top Tennis Training or Jeff S and you will find really good things.

I think having a very natural and relaxed upward throwing motion is key to having a great serve, look at slow motion videos of pitchers none is doing the salute / combing the hair etc. just natural throwing with natural pronation.

We over complicate the serve, and once you start to overthink you are in trouble.....

However your service motion looks solid and fluid, other part of your game looks more stiff / constrained I would work on that.

Cheers H
 
tonylg said:
I doesn't get better than those 4 :-D
Click to expand...
I said in the first post that this thread is not about whether it’s important to have an open face racket drop but rather the explanation that I came up with as to why it happens and how you can fix it with a specific progression drill.
 
Curious said:
I said in the first post that this thread is not about whether it’s important to have an open face racket drop but rather the explanation that I came up with as to why it happens and how you can fix it with a specific progression drill.
Click to expand...

Why try to fix something that might not even be a problem, except in the mind. IMO the open racquet face before the drop seems more natural to me, just like throwing or pitching is a very natural motion to me.
 
Happi said:
Why try to fix something that might not even be a problem, except in the mind. IMO the open racquet face before the drop seems more natural to me, just like throwing or pitching is a very natural motion to me.
Click to expand...
For a lot of people these things feel natural:
Tossing arm up only 45 degrees
10 degrees of shoulder tilt on the serve
A limp dangling non-dominant arm on forehand
A 3 feet back swing on volleys
Not split stepping
 
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Curious said:
For a lot of people these things feel natural:
Tossing arm up only 45 degrees
10 degrees of shoulder tilt on the serve
A limp dangling non-dominant arm on forehand
A 3 feet back swing on volleys
Not split stepping
Click to expand...

Good humor:)
 
To single frame on Youtube use the period & comma keys. Always select the Youtube with Alt-Left Mouse click, otherwise it starts playing. There are video pauses hold down the period key to move past the pauses or play past.

To single frame on Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS. Wait a few seconds on a stopped frame and the time scale will disappear so that you can see the elbow.

You can go full screen and then reduce and the videos remains on the same frame.

Compare Vimeo forearm shadow at 10 sec to your forearm shadow at 30 sec.


Look for the start of ISR, and how that makes the forearm-to-racket angle look. Estimate the amount of ISR start to impact. If your video is 240 fps the frames will be 4.2 ms apart in all 3 videos. If you recorded at 240 fps, you might count frames back from impact to see how you compare. A shadow on your forearm & elbow appears in your second video serve clip and that shadow near the elbow can indicate ISR. (tendon attachment) The Vimeo video has a similar shadow extending from forearm to elbow.

I often do not see as much forearm to racket shaft angle as I think should be there, including on the pros. If you match camera angles and ball trajectories the forearm-to-racket shaft angles should be the same for similar techniques in detail. I posted on how to measure.

I don't see any going toward the ball and rotating the racket head before impact. I see the ISR start and the racket face moves as the arm rotates mostly from ISR.

This kind of detail is available by placing a smartphone camera closer or zooming in on the server from mid-back to above the racket at impact.

Note- most pro servers do not place the butt cap of the racket on the fat pad of the hand. The butt cap most often ends around the little finger. Yours does also at 30 sec.
 
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Curious said:
I'm using the same grip on all of those serves in the video, which is continental by description ie both the first knuckle and the heel pad on bevel two.
Click to expand...
I think that those grip reference points can be misleading. Your grip is "continental-ish", but it is still weaker than the grip used by most high-level servers. I was judging your grip based on the angle of the racquet face when the racquet is straight out in front of you before the toss. Your face is facing almost horizontal, suggesting more of an "Aussie" grip (0:04 in your OP vid). For most high level servers, the racquet face is 45-degrees open (like in Sampras' case, for example) or almost completely open (facing the sky, like in Raonic's case, for example, as at 0:06 in vid below, as he uses between conti and bh grip).
When you address the ball in comfortable wrist position, a "true" continental like Sampras will naturally align the racquetface at 45 degrees open or so.
Also, to show that your grip affects the rest of your motion, compare how open Sampras's racquet is just after addressing the ball and letting racquet drop near ground (0:16 in Sampras vid below, vs 0:06 in your OP vid). Again there is about 30 degrees difference in how your grip naturally positions the racquetface (Sampras' racquet is mostly facing the sky, and yours is still facing mostly horizontal).
 
Last edited:
Curious said:
For a lot of people these things feel natural:
Tossing arm up only 45 degrees
10 degrees of shoulder tilt on the serve
A limp dangling non-dominant arm on forehand
A 3 feet back swing on volleys
Not split stepping
Click to expand...
You need to fix these things because they cause problems. You don't need to fix your racquet drop because it doesn't cause any problem. That's the difference.

Curious said:
We don’t know how better/worse their serves would be with an on-edge racket drop, do we?
Click to expand...
Ok, assuming that on-face racquet drop is a problem like you said and the highest ceiling for the on-face-racquet-drop serve is Federer's and Sampras's level.
Now my question is, wouldn't you be happy enough if your serve can reach their serve's level? Would you be saying like "F*ck my serve can only be as good as Federer's?"
If no, then why do you care?? Unless your goal is to serve better than Federer and Sampras, I see absolutely no reason why you should let that bother you.

If your ultimate goal is be a millionaire and you have a business that makes billions, do you care if that business cannot make trillions?
 
Looks more crucial how he comes out of the drop rather than how he enters "open":
giphy.gif
 
travlerajm said:
..................................................................
Also, to show that your grip affects the rest of your motion, compare how open Sampras's racquet is just after addressing the ball and letting racquet drop near ground (0:16 in Sampras vid below, vs 0:06 in your OP vid). Again there is about 30 degrees difference in how your grip naturally positions the racquetface (Sampras' racquet is mostly facing the sky, and yours is still facing mostly horizontal).
Click to expand...

"compare how open Sampras's racquet is just after addressing the ball and letting racquet drop near ground"

I use the term 'open' mostly to mean the upper edge of the racket is behind the lower edge. Open or closed is important because of gravity and the vertical direction. Others may use 'open' in other ways. ?

Is that late in the follow through? Sampras could have used different muscles to slow down. Do other high level servers get to that position? Besides, Sampras bends his elbow for the follow though, what percentage of other pro servers do that? The elbow can only bend like that if the angle of ISR allows it to, because the elbow is a hinge joint. That elbow bend would have to be tied in with his maximum ESR, his ISR timing and the direction of travel of the high velocity mass of the arm and racket........ How many pro players display that elbow bend?

The farther away in time or position from ball impact, the more variations will be seen because only the approach to the ball has to be very similar biomechanically and precise for impact. But the follow throughs do not have to be similar between high level servers. The OP is interested in the racket drop, well before the final approach to the ball. Every body and racket position in a high speed video frame also has velocities and stretched muscles that aren't apparent from video positions alone. Describing positions in high speed videos such as the racket 'faces up' or 'edge toward the travel direction' says nothing about racket velocities and stretched muscles. Videos of the approach to the ball will show differences. Sampras had different positions, velocities and stretched muscles in every frame of the approach to the ball. Going way before impact and picking one racket position or way after impact in the follow through and picking another racket position is questionable. If you want to pursue it, first observe the percentage of pros that do what you are describing.

I think over 95% of high level servers would show very similar biomechanics approaching the ball. What percentage would show Sampras's racket angle near the ground late in the follow through?

There may be some very interesting racket positions at the racket drop for the pros. ? If 80% of ATP servers show the XYZ racket position that would be an interesting thread.

In studying racket positions that may be significant, separate what the pros are doing from what the forum posters are doing. What the pros are doing should be a lot easier to identify and study............

There is also an issue of the serve hand path for pros vs for forum posters. I have in mind the hand path as viewed from above. It is hard to estimate that angle from seeing only a handful of overhead videos.
 
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Curious said:
This has been one of my obsessions over the years. I know most people don't think it's important but I do. I said here many times that I believe racket not moving on edge passing the trophy position and during the drop is a flaw, and yes even though Sampras and Federer do it! Anyway this thread is not about whether it's important or not. Im my opinion it's somewhat similar to a waiter's tray serve problem. It's about a misinterpretation by the brain in that you want to keep the racket open as that's where you will hit the ball with, not with the edge of the frame. For those who don't like open racket drop, who wonder why it happens and how to fix it, I made this video. In the first two serves you see my racket drops with an open string face to the sky. After that the only thing I changed is the intention to hit the ball with the edge of the frame, I mean I didn't try to drop it on edge but interestingly enough it automatically drops on edge. I find this amazing. So I keep practicing with this, hitting the ball with the edge, then after many repetitions I add pronation at the last moment to square up the string face to the ball and hit a real serve. Let me see if I'm the only one obsessed with this ugly racket drop issue.


Click to expand...
Maybe this instructional video will help?

 
I don’t even need to argue that open drop is bad and ugly. I will say something more controversial: even on edge drop is suboptimal, the best is a closed racket drop! Yes, the hitting side of strings facing downward.

Tell me if you have a better explanation for this kid’s secret to his card throwing speed.
This is mine: lightning fast motion from full supination to full pronation.


 
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Curious said:
I don’t even need to argue that open drop is bad and ugly. I will say something more controversial: even on edge drop is suboptimal, the best is a closed racket drop! Yes, the hitting side of strings facing downward.

Tell me if you have a better explanation for this kid’s secret to his card throwing speed.
This is mine: lightning fast motion from full supination to full pronation.
Click to expand...
One day, that kid is going to have an off day and slice his Dad’s thumb off.
 
All of these throws use "on-face racquet drop"

Coincidence? Don't think so.

If anything, on-edge racquet drop is suboptimal.
 
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BetaServe said:
All of these throws use "on-face racquet drop"

Coincidence? Don't think so.

If anything, on-edge racquet drop is suboptimal.
Click to expand...
You’re missing something. We’re not just throwing the racket at the ball. We’re throwing and rotating at the same time to increase the speed of the racket face into the ball.
 
Curious said:
@BetaServe

Click to expand...
I think you are overcomplicating this. The amount of pronation is almost entirely a function of how strong the serve grip is. Players with eastern bh serve grip will pronate the most. Players with continental grip will pronate less. Players with eastern forehand grip will hardly pronate at all. I still maintain that your grip is between continental and eastern fh, not quite a true continental, and your relative lack of pronation gives it away. If you try rotating your grip more toward bh, your racquet drop will look more Sampras-like.
 
Curious said:
@BetaServe

Click to expand...


No...The first movement you showed is not what Federer and Sampras are doing.
What I believe is, to maximize the speed of the racquet face, the hand needs to follow this sequence: open - edge - open.
And the first movement you show me in the video is just open-open (you're missing the edge part - that's basically waiter tray serve), this is not what Federer and Sampras are doing.

Now, the second movement in your video is edge-open, while it is better than open-open, it is not as optimal as open-edge-open.
The reason is when you drop the racquet on edge too early, your hand is already in the supinated position and it won't generate as much stretch on the shoulder at the slot/drop position.

What you're missing is Federer and Sampras they're supinating their hand at the last second (right after the trophy pose), so it looks likes they're not dropping the racquet on edge, but they are, it's just a tad later (which is perfect for generating max ESR)
 
BetaServe said:
No...The first movement you showed is not what Federer and Sampras are doing.
What I believe is, to maximize the speed of the racquet face, the hand needs to follow this sequence: open - edge - open.
And the first movement you show me in the video is just open-open (you're missing the edge part - that's basically waiter tray serve), this is not what Federer and Sampras are doing.

Now, the second movement in your video is edge-open, while it is better than open-open, it is not as optimal as open-edge-open.
The reason is when you drop the racquet on edge too early, your hand is already in the supinated position and it won't generate as much stretch on the shoulder at the slot/drop position.

What you're missing is Federer and Sampras they're supinating their hand at the last second (right after the trophy pose), so it looks likes they're not dropping the racquet on edge, but they are, it's just a tad later (which is perfect for generating max ESR)
Click to expand...
Well, I think I’m done here. Made my point, which apparently is not supported. But that’s fine.
 
Curious said:
..........................................................................
Click to expand...

For post #24, your video at 30 sec vs the video on the bottom at 10 sec (240 fps) shows differences for the last 7 frames leading to impact. What was your recording speed for the video in the OP at 30 seconds?

The camera angles were different and this should be repeated to confirm. I think the bottom video shows ISR. Corrected - I see ISR from the elbow shadow in the OP video. ? For ISR the racket moves to the left. But your racket does not move to the left. To confirm this the videos should be identical camera angles and serve types. Compare the last 7 frames before impact. Better camera angle in post #61.

I can't post pictures now because my photo host is delaying the uploads for days. If anybody can grab and post the last seven frames leading to impact it would make an interesting comparison if the frame rates are the same.
 
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BetaServe said:
@Curious

Click to expand...
I’m well aware that both Sampras and Federer have an on edge upward swing leading later into pronation. Otherwise they would have typical waiter’s tray serve, which is clearly not the case. But I believe how they enter that on edge motion coming from the drop is also important and there’s a flaw there imo.
 
Curious said:
@BetaServe

Click to expand...

Federer/Sampras's serve and your ideal serve they both reach this position in your video at 1:11.
The difference between their serves and your ideal serve is, at trophy position, their hand is not yet supinated, aka their racquet is facing to the side, while your hand is already supinated and the racquet is facing your hair.

And this is what I'm saying:
Neutral (at trophy) -> supinate -> pronate is better than Already supinated (at trophy) -> pronate.
I already explained why:
If your hand is already in the supinated position there won't be much stretch shortening cycle at the slot/drop position.

Think of the forehand, if your hand is already in the lag position (racquet already pointing back), you won't be generating as much power.
 
BetaServe said:
Federer/Sampras's serve and your ideal serve they both reach this position in your video at 1:11.
The difference between their serves and your ideal serve is, at trophy position, their hand is not yet supinated, aka their racquet is facing to the side, while your hand is already supinated and the racquet is facing your hair.

And this is what I'm saying:
Neutral (at trophy) -> supinate -> pronate is better than Already supinated (at trophy) -> pronate.
I already explained why:
If your hand is already in the supinated position there won't be much stretch shortening cycle at the slot/drop position.

Think of the forehand, if your hand is already in the lag position (racquet already pointing back), you won't be generating as much power.
Click to expand...
So you’re basically saying that an open racket drop is better than on edge drop?
 
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