Racket drop on edge or with open face

Curious said:
The fact that open drop disappears completely and the racket starts dropping on edge miraculously when you try to hit the ball with the edge of the racket is 100% proof for me that this flaw is a remnant of waiter’s tray serve.
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Correlation versus causation fallacy that's not evidence, let alone proof!

Federer, widely regarded to have one of the smoothest and most rhythmic serves ever, does not have a waiter's tray serve. You would need to demonstrate that at some point he did. Can you do that for him, or any of the professionals that use an open drop? Once you've demonstrated that for the majority of these players, next you would need to demonstrate that those with a perfect on-edge drop (like Thiem) never had a waiter's tray. Only then would there be some credibility to your assertion above.

Imo you should stop making **** up and then claiming it as proof. Just saying :happydevil:
 
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Digital Atheist said:
Correlation versus causation fallacy, and that's not evidence, let alone proof.

Federer, widely regarded to have one of the smoothest and most rhythmic serves ever, does not have a waiter's tray serve. You would need to demonstrate that at some point he did. Can you do that for him, or any of the professionals that use an open drop? Once you've demonstrated that for the majority of these players, next you would need to demonstrate that those with a perfect on-edge drop (like Thiem) never had a waiter's tray. Only then would there be some credibility to your assertion above.

Imo you should stop making **** up and then claiming it as proof. Just saying :happydevil:
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You sound pissed off!:D
 
Curious said:
You sound pissed off!:D
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That's why I finished with the happy devil! Didn't mean to sound angry, sorry for the confusing tone.

I fear you've gone so far down the rabbit hole, not even a double-strength red pill could wake you up on this particular matter. I'm more disappointed in myself, since I had hoped you would be able to successfully recognise all of the evidence against your position and at least take a moment to re-evaluate, but instead you went the other way and doubled down. I was OK with you wanting a full on edge drop and obsessing over it, even tried to help on multiple occasions, but you went full r3tard with your claim that the open drop is flawed. Never go full r3tard mate!


An Aussie kid serving bombs and all you see is an ugly flawed racquet drop, right?
 
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Digital Atheist said:
That's why I finished with the happy devil! Didn't mean to sound angry, sorry for the confusing tone.

I fear you've gone so far down the rabbit hole, not even a double-strength red pill could wake you up on this particular matter. I'm more disappointed in myself, since I had hoped you would be able to successfully recognise all of the evidence against your position and at least take a moment to re-evaluate, but instead you went the other way and doubled down. I was OK with you wanting a full on edge drop and obsessing over it, even tried to help on multiple occasions, but you went full r3tard with your claim that the open drop is flawed. Never go full r3tard mate!


An Aussie kid serving bombs and all you see is an ugly flawed racquet drop, right?

Edit: Apparently r-e-t-a-r-d is a little too offensive for this forum.
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What do you think of Tomaz video above? Too ******?
 
@Curious I totally agree with @Digital Atheist.
You went full r3tard by claiming the open racquet drop is flawed. You can say it's ugly (which I disagree, it's only ugly when you do it, sorry) but you can't say it's flawed because, technically and biomechanically, it is not. And your counter arguments suck.
You just like to make BS claim based on your limited knowledge of the serve mechanics and think that's the truth.
 
BetaServe said:
@Curious I totally agree with @Digital Atheist.
You went full r3tard by claiming the open racquet drop is flawed. You can say it's ugly (which I disagree, it's only ugly when you do it, sorry) but you can't say it's flawed because, technically and biomechanically, it is not. And your counter arguments suck.
You just like to make BS claim based on your limited knowledge of the serve mechanics and think that's the truth.
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What do you think about the Tomaz video above, mate? Is that full r3tard as well??
 
BetaServe said:
And if Tomaz agrees with you that open racquet drop is bad, he wouldn't be using Federer as an example right? :D
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Watch again. He talks about correcting the open racket drop in the whole video. And he gives Federer and Tsonga as examples of open racket drop!!
 
Curious said:
Watch again. He talks about correcting the open racket drop in the whole video. And he gives Federer and Tsonga as examples of open racket drop!!
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Yes I know, but he never said that's a bad thing.
To clarify, on-edge drop is just one way to drop the racquet, it's not the only way. What Tomaz shows in the video is how do an on-edge drop because it's easier to grasp for beginners, he never actually said open racquet drop is bad nor did he say open racquet drop = waiter tray.
 
I vote

1) Define the Waiter's Tray Error as Hi TechTennis does and at a defined instant of the service motion. Hi Tech Tennis also has a webpage defining the Big L Position. There are other terms used for WT because it is the most common technique in use by active tennis players.

2) Anyone discussing 'edge on', 'on edge', 'leading with the edge', 'racket facing the sky', 'racket open' , 'racket opens up', etc, provide webpages from tennis sources that define the terms that they use, or provide a picture or video of the instant or held range of the service motion that they mean. Don't use the term Waiter's Tray unless it matches Hi TechTennis's defined and illustrated use. State the players that it applies to.

2013 thread looking for the meaning of the Waiter's Tray Technique. Some of my comments would be different today.
Chas Tennis said:
'Waiter's Tray Error'- Definition? What is the arm position?

Is there an internet definition of the 'Waiter's Tray Error'(WTE) on the serve that matches most TW forum usage of this term?

Website description
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/big_l_student.php

The 'Waiter's Tray' Error involves not having the desired 'edge on' racket orientation at some point in the serving sequence. At which point?

The effective 'edge on' racket orientation allows the arm-wrist-racket face to freely rotate as it approaches impact.
391548344_100.jpg

'Edge-On' racket face when arm becomes straight. One frame later at 240 fps the racket face has turned noticeably toward the ball impact orientation. Very rapid.

I have assumed that the 'Waiter's Tray Error' applies also just after the arm becomes straight - in final position for the internal shoulder rotation and wrist joint motions that take the racket from about 90° to the arm to the beta angle at impact (20-35°?) and provide 90%? of racket face velocity. With this view the WTE is transitory, dynamic because the elbow has just rapidly extended and other body joints are also moving. The desired 'edge on' or WTE probably only last a short time. But with WTE the racket really does not turn as rapidly as it does with the 'edge on' orientation. Does WTE also occur when the arm becomes straight?

Earlier in the service motion the racket face might be facing up in a similar way to WTE and that is OK, I guess?

These issues probably involve the sequence of supination and pronation as well as other joint motions. ??

Speculating - Maybe the 'Waiter Tray Error' occurs because the server has a misconception and believes that he has to swat-swing at the ball instead of using axial rotation of the arm. ? I had that misconception until last year too but have never had much tendency to do the WTE.
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Curious said:
What do you think of Tomaz video above? Too ******?
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I've seen the video and agree with him.

Curious said:
Are you serious?
He shows how to get rid of open racket drop but he doesn’t believe it’s bad?!
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An open racquet face that leads to a waiter's tray is bad, an open racquet drop that doesn't lead to a waiter's tray can hardly be called bad, unless you think Fed and Tsonga have crap serves.

But what you wrote is disingenuous to say the least and is missing a few other critical factors, not least of which is an open racquet face that leads to a waiter's tray is not the same beast as a high level open racquet drop, yet you keep trying to conflate the two.

When dealing with an existing waiter's tray, a good way to prevent that undesired outcome is indeed to focus on trying to stay on edge with the racquet. Nothing controversial there since those with a waiter's serve tend to lay the wrist back with the palm up. He also references Tsonga and Federer as two servers who go into the drop with a slightly open face, which indicates there's a way to execute an open drop without causing a waiter's tray, so no need to eliminate it entirely as long as the waiter's tray is cured. This is evidence to my point that the two types of open drops are not the same. But just in case you want to argue that they are the same, then the counter to that is this; not all open drops lead to a waiter's tray, which means the drop itself is only an issue when it does result in a waiter's tray. Therefore, if you consider the high level open drop (Fed) and the waiters tray open drop to be the same, then the drop on it's own cannot be considered bad ... unless your logic meter is broken or you really do believe Fed and Tsonga have crap serves.

But you already know all this, so are you presenting the Feel Tennis video as evidence for your "remnant" claim or suggesting that, in essence, he holds the same position as you?
 
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Digital Atheist said:
I've seen the video and agree with him.



An open racquet face that leads to a waiter's tray is bad, an open racquet drop that doesn't lead to a waiter's tray can hardly be called bad, unless you think Fed and Tsonga have crap serves.

But what you wrote is disingenuous to say the least and is missing a few other critical factors, not least of which is an open racquet face that leads to a waiter's tray is not the same beast as a high level open racquet drop, yet you keep trying to conflate the two.

When dealing with an existing waiter's tray, a good way to prevent that undesired outcome is indeed to focus on trying to stay on edge with the racquet. Nothing controversial there since those with a waiter's serve tend to lay the wrist back with the palm up. He also references Tsonga and Federer as two servers who go into the drop with a slightly open face, which indicates there's a way to execute an open drop without causing a waiter's tray, so no need to eliminate it entirely as long as the waiter's tray is cured. This is evidence to my point that the two types of open drops are not the same. But just in case you want to argue that they are the same, then the counter to that is this; not all open drops lead to a waiter's tray, which means the drop itself is only an issue when it does result in a waiter's tray. Therefore, if you consider the high level open drop (Fed) and the waiters tray open drop to be the same, then the drop on it's own cannot be considered bad ... unless your logic meter is broken or you really do believe Fed and Tsonga have crap serves.

But you already know all this, so are you presenting the Feel Tennis video as evidence for your "remnant" claim or suggesting that, in essence, he holds the same position as you?
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Of course neither Federer nor Tsonga or Hewitt have waiter’s tray serve.
I don’t either. No one whose racket goes up on edge has a waiter’s tray serve. That’s why I said it’s a remnant of waiter’s tray serve. There has to be a reason why some people drop the racket with an open face and I don’t think it’s simple personal preference or idiosyncrasy. I believe there’s more to on edge drop than just aesthetics. But it’s quite a fine detail that I’m tired of discussing hence I won’t continue.
 
Curious said:
Watch again. He talks about correcting the open racket drop in the whole video. And he gives Federer and Tsonga as examples of open racket drop!!
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Demonstrate Federer, Tsonga, Sampras, Becker, Raonic, Safin and Ferrero (a few random open droppers) had a waiter's tray at some point early in their developing career. Then demonstrate Thiem, Serena, Wawrinka and those with an on edge drop never ever had one. That's the only way your claim stands up. Until then, this is all minutia.
 
Curious said:
That’s why I said it’s a remnant of waiter’s tray serve. There has to be a reason why some people drop the racket with an open face and I don’t think it’s simple personal preference or idiosyncrasy.
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Raonic has a hybrid drop. He uses quite an open racquet face when going for big bombs, and is more on edge when hitting second serves. I wonder what kind of waiter's tray remnant is associated with that quirk. Sounds like the very definition of personal preference!
 
Digital Atheist said:
Raonic has a hybrid drop. He uses quite an open racquet face when going for big bombs, and is more on edge when hitting second serves. I wonder what kind of waiter's tray remnant is associated with that quirk. Sounds like the very definition of personal preference!
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Do some shadow swings with both open and on edge drop, keep your eyes closed. Do it many times. See if you feel any difference? In terms of fluidity, effortlessness and racket speed.
 
Matteo Berretini is an interesting serving species. He uses very pronounced BH grip to prepare. He also opens 3 bottom fingers fully going into drop. And drops quite open. Further on, the grip doesn't really look BH-dish any more, seems he twists it aroud trophy...
HXzrbfu.jpg


 
Dragy said:
Matteo Berretini is an interesting serving species. He uses very pronounced BH grip to prepare. He also opens 3 bottom fingers fully going into drop. And drops quite open. Further on, the grip doesn't really look BH-dish any more, seems he twists it aroud trophy...
HXzrbfu.jpg


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According to Curious, Berretini's 135mph serve is flawed because he drops open. :-D
 
I won't argue with you anymore.
Instead I'll give you a few hints that might make you rethink about your "open drop serve is flawed" BS claim.
- The best servers of all time Sampras, Federer have an open drop serve.
- There are servers with open drop serve that serve just as good or even better than those with on edge drop (e.g Berettini vs Thiem)
- And even if it's a flaw, it is insignificant to your overall serve. Being obsessed about insignificant flaws/nano improvements is just stupid.
- Consider how many times you were wrong in the past when it comes to technical details (95% of the times)

Edit: You also gave Nishikori and Hewitt as examples to support your claim. Well I can also do the same: Here's Hyeon Chung's serve (1:05) with an on-edge drop.

 
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BetaServe said:
I won't argue with you anymore.
Instead I'll give you a few hints that might make you rethink about your "open drop serve is flawed" BS claim.
- The best servers of all time Sampras, Federer have an open drop serve.
- There are servers with open drop serve that serve just as good or even better than those with on edge drop (e.g Berettini vs Thiem)
- And even if it's a flaw, it is insignificant to your overall serve. Being obsessed about insignificant flaws/nano improvements is just stupid.
- Consider how many times you were wrong in the past when it comes to technical details (95% of the times)

Edit: You also gave Nishikori and Hewitt as examples to support your claim. Well I can also do the same: Here's Hyeon Chung's serve (1:05) with an on-edge drop.

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Yeah good on you! I'm not arguing anymore, either. :D
 
Dim Sim said:
Just bumping this along. I want to see this exercise in (arguably) pointlessness get to 1000 posts.

@Curious - I’ve lost sight of the horizon. What’s your purpose with this thread? To merely postulate that open drop is somehow flawed? To examine the evidence and find the proof of the remnant flaw?

In any case, how’s your serve going? I’m interested to know if your project has resulted in a better or worse serve.
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Thinking about and experimenting stuff as an enthusiastic student of this sport. That’s about it, mate.
 
Dragy said:
Matteo Berretini is an interesting serving species. He uses very pronounced BH grip to prepare. He also opens 3 bottom fingers fully going into drop. And drops quite open. Further on, the grip doesn't really look BH-dish any more, seems he twists it aroud trophy...
HXzrbfu.jpg


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Weird but effective:
https://www.atptour.com/en/news/berrettini-infosys-first-serve-september-2019

@Curious, I found this.


Dunno how relevant you consider that but it goes to my attempt at describing your high elbow and the way you move it into contact.
 
I don’t see a big problem with your serve. You come in with the edge of the racquet at contact. Unless you’re into a perfect serve why break it?
 
Recently I’ve been practicing more effective ISR with Sampras shoulder on shoulder cartwheeling action which gave me easier effortless power plus weight transfer into the court. Especially effective when I serve and volley.
 
Who agrees that this guy seems to know what he’s talking about?
And who agrees that he simply shows how you can and should move the racket on edge all the way?

PS: Looked it up. Ryan Segelke, 38 years old, former pro player and WTA coach.

 
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Curious said:
Who agrees that this guy seems to know what he’s talking about?
And who agrees that he simply shows how you can and should move the racket on edge all the way?

PS: Looked it up. Ryan Segelke, 38 years old, former pro player and WTA coach.

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What time of the video lesson related to the racket edge?
 
@Curious

Just so that you know, you are missing the biggest element (for pace) of pronation (forearm rotation).

For a racket on edge (coming out of racket drop), as you understood the racket face is parallel to the palm face just before pronation (like you mentioned) and just before contact it is like a high five. But the missing piece is the racket length is not along the arm ... for maximum accelration it is perpandicular to the arm (or somewhere close, based on flexibility). So when you do pronation, the rotation accelrates the racket head wildly.

Or in otherwords you have to break your palm to really show that movement before highfive.

And it is not really the racket face rotation which gives maximum accelration (it just happens to add to it). Also you to do the accelarion I mentioned and to it is ideal to have racket on edge (instead of 180 degee).




Curious said:
@BetaServe

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Morch Us said:
@Curious

Just so that you know, you are missing the biggest element (for pace) of pronation (forearm rotation).

For a racket on edge (coming out of racket drop), as you understood the racket face is parallel to the palm face just before pronation (like you mentioned) and just before contact it is like a high five. But the missing piece is the racket length is not along the arm ... for maximum accelration it is perpandicular to the arm (or somewhere close, based on flexibility). So when you do pronation, the rotation accelrates the racket head wildly.

Or in otherwords you have to break your palm to really show that movement before highfive.

And it is not really the racket face rotation which gives maximum accelration (it just happens to add to it). Also you to do the accelarion I mentioned and to it is ideal to have racket on edge (instead of 180 degee).
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I see what you mean. The racket forearm angle should be less than 180 degrees ideally to add that extra leverage. But also remember that we're not trying to create torque or power, we're trying to create pace and with an angle close to 180 degrees ( minimum leverage ) it will be much easier and faster to rotate the forearm.
 
I am not good at creating videos like you. But I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

What I am saying is length of fore-arm and length of racket should be making close to 90 degree angle just before the pronation, so that any angle of rotation on forearm creates biggest possible circle at the top of the racket head, there by creating extreme racket head speed. just out of even a smal angle of rotation for forearm (pronation).

Least displacement of racket head being racket length aligned with forearm length (0 degree or 180 degree), and maximum displacement being 90 or 270 degree between forearm length and racket length (one hitting the ball back, and one hitting the ball forward). Assuming same time for forearm rotation (pronation), maximum displacement provides maximum velocity.

Racket face is only a secondary thing, and racket face rotation (alone) does not add anywhere close of the above speed. (to exxagerate, assume the racket length is aligned with forearm length, then all the pronation will do is a simple racket face rotation and, does not add any racket head speed, just a snap).

And on a continental grip, the racket face on edge just before pronation simplifies the first mentioned movement (big circle) to eventually contact the ball at the proper rakcet face angle (well.. I guess we all agree timing and racket face at contact is super important as well) , which is the main reason why most pros are happy with a racket face rotation of 90 degree to 180 degree, and never go for 360 degree like you pointed out.


Curious said:
I see what you mean. The racket forearm angle should be less than 180 degrees ideally to add that extra leverage. But also remember that we're not trying to create torque or power, we're trying to create pace and with an angle close to 180 degrees ( minimum leverage ) it will be much easier and faster to rotate the forearm.
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And what I am saying is, the forearm rotation should be converted to racket head speed, and it is not possible via racket/forearm angle at 180 degree.
(0 racket head speed from pronation, the center of the racket face moves probably a few inches, creating a small snap, with aligned racket/forarm)
Curious said:
it will be much easier and faster to rotate the forearm.
Click to expand...
 
by the way based on other factors like shoulder/core flexibility and at what height they prefer to hit the serves, most players does not end the pronation at 90 degree forearm/racket angle. But if power/pace is the only concern then 90 is the ideal angle. (not taking about racket face here...)
 
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