Racket path after ball contact on slice serve

#1
Should the follow through after ball contact on the slice serve be the same as it is on the flat serve?

I believe the answer is yes, but then I also feel that I can get more spin/slice action if I continue with a carving racket path to my left (for right handers)

Is this a wrong intuition? (I find that a lot of what feels intuitively right is often times not right in tennis)
 
#2
Generally speaking the follow through should be the same. The differences will result from the path your racquet took before contact. Anything that happens after contact will not affect the flight of the ball. Even a perceived change in racquet path DURING contact doesn't really have any effect because the ball is in contact with the strings for such a short amount of time. The change in racquet path either took place before contact or after, not during.
 
#3
I don't know the variations in the follow throughs of high level players.

This thread discusses the slice and kick serves. During and immediately after impact for the slice serve, the racket is near its highest point and going to the right for a right hander. I can't see the impact point but players may vary that especially for the slice serve, that is, some may first contact the ball more toward the right side. The video for the slice serve is in the link to another thread, I believe, so you can see how his racket moved in the slice follow through.
From another thread -
The racket motion for a kick and slice serve (and flat) are different and can be easily displayed with a 240 fps high speed video camera with a very fast shutter speed.

Toly created these very informative gifs.

"Here is a kick serve showing: 1) frame before impact, 2) impact frame, 3) frame after impact. Frames recorded at 240 fps, 4.2 milliseconds apart. Displayed by gifs from Toly composite pictures. The racket head is going higher at the time of impact. The gyrospin is produced by contacting the ball somewhat forward of the spot on the ball that is farthest back (too difficult to see in this video). I don't know the exact spot or the variation among servers. The arm is rotating rapidly and the details of ulna deviation are not clear. Ulna deviation can stress the wrist. Note the forearm to racket angle for the kick serve. It is smaller for a kick or topspin serve. That angle allows the racket head to rise as it is in contact with the ball = kick or topspin serve.

Video of kick.


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Here is a slice serve showing: 1) frame before impact, 2) impact frame, 3) frame after impact. Frames recorded at 240 fps, 4.2 milliseconds apart. Displayed by gifs from Toly composite pictures. The racket head is going to the side at the time of impact = slice serve.

Video of slice serve.


Racket motion during impact -

An estimate of the ISR racket head rotation rate is 3000°/sec or 3°/millisecond. therefore, in 4 milliseconds of string-ball contact the racket head rotates and estimated 12°(ignoring impact effects). Always consider racket translation and rotation during impact because the racket moves considerably in 4 milliseconds.

ISR in the above 240 fps videos lasts only about 1/4 second as played back at 30 fps. You have to look carefully at the elbow shadows to see it suddenly rotate, twitch-like.

These racket and ball interactions apply to a high level serve. Players with other techniques like the Waiter's Tray technique may get spin with other racket head motions."

Original post with video links, also see thread.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/inde...ve-wrist-movement-video.557005/#post-10090644

Using racket-ball high speed videos as above for the different types of serves is a killer application for tennis serve feedback and analysis. High speed video at 240 fps with a fast shutter speed works great.

But to see the string ball contact that gives gyrospin on the kick serve is much more difficult requiring higher videos speeds and carefully controlled experiments.

Maybe once you see the racket path in the above gifs the best approach is trial and error to get effective contact area for gyrospin.
The closer to impact the more servers will resemble each other. In the follow through there may be options. I don't know how far the racket continues to the right after impact and believe that it varies among servers.

An important point is that roughly half the NTRP 3.0-4.5 servers use a Waiter's Tray technique. Those with Waiter's Trays serves somehow get spins on the ball. As far as I know racket paths to get those spins have not been described or videod to show racket paths.
 
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#5
It's a two step process.according to FeelTennis guy..

One - correct orientation when hitting ball to get spin you want to get. For a slice serve you will be swinging more towards the side fence.

Two - after contact let your shoulders come around so you are squared up to the net - then you can split after the return and see what is going on..

The main issue is this happens pretty fast so to some people it looks like all one step - and that you contact a slice serve well in front of your body - but this is not true - its a bit more off to the right and your body is more sideways..

I believe he is correct about this..
 

julian

Hall of Fame
#6
I don't know the variations in the follow throughs of high level players.

This thread discusses the slice and kick serves. During and immediately after impact for the slice serve, the racket is near its highest point and going to the right for a right hander. I can't see the impact point but players may vary that especially for the slice serve, that is, some may first contact the ball more toward the right side. The video for the slice serve is in the link to another thread, I believe, so you can see how his racket moved in the slice follow through.


The closer to impact the more servers will resemble each other. In the follow through there may be options. I don't know how far the racket continues to the right after impact and believe that it varies among servers.

An important point is that roughly half the NTRP 3.0-4.5 servers use a Waiter's Tray technique. Those with Waiter's Trays serves somehow get spins on the ball. As far as I know racket paths to get those spins have not been described or videod to show racket paths.
The racket does not have to go to the right
Say for a rightie on a deuce side
 
#7
Wouldn't it depend on where you're hitting your slice serves, as well as where you hitting your flat serves?
I have a drawing of the court and can use a protractor to get an idea of the angle between a serve to the centerline and a wide serve to the sideline It's roughly 15°. The server could stand differently to hit the center or sideline, turn their entire body 15°. Or they could stand the same way and hit the ball differently.

In a high level serve the racket is rotating at 2 to 3 degrees per millisecond in the side-to- side direction, 8 to 12° total, during impact. Somehow servers train that. For a Waiter's Tray, where the racket is rotating much slower, the server somehow must direct the racket face to move across the ball and first contact it on the right spot.
 
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SystemicAnomaly

Talk Tennis Guru
#8
Should the follow through after ball contact on the slice serve be the same as it is on the flat serve?

I believe the answer is yes, but then I also feel that I can get more spin/slice action if I continue with a carving racket path to my left (for right handers)

Is this a wrong intuition? (I find that a lot of what feels intuitively right is often times not right in tennis)
The conventional answer is YES but is is possible to utilize the carving action that you suggest. While most elite servers do not do this, some players seem to be able to get the carving action to work for them. I believe that what you are suggesting is similar to what Salzenstein is doing in this video:

I suspect that the the brushing action and the amount of racket ¨pronation¨ during the contact phase is very similar for the Salzenstein slice as it is for a more conventional slice serve action. However, after the contact phase, it appears that Jeff supinates his forearm and racket whereas we see a considerable amount of pronation (and ISR) for the conventional slice serve action.
 
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#9
Here are some Toly composite images from rare Fuzzy Yellow Balls overhead camera views of the serve. This is also the ideal camera view to show the racket path forward and to the side after impact.



How representative these images are of the variety among ATP players is not known. Unfortunately, overhead videos are very hard to find.
 
#11
Slice serve in comparison to a flat serve. Toly composite pictures. I can't say how typical these serves are.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/slice-serve-pronate-or-no-pronate.456513/page-2
Here are examples of flat and slice serves.

Both show solid arm pronation.
The main differences are:
1. There is very weak wrist ulnar deviation in case of flat serve and very active in case of slice serve.
2. Path of the slice serve is directed more to the right.
3. Flat serve has additional wrist flexing activity.
There is a problem is determining directions accurately with randomly placed video cameras. I believe that the ball's trajectory provides a pretty good reference direction, so far the best that I can think of. The trajectory can be seen from behind or in front of the server. If you point the camera at the center of the service box, then the sideline is about 8 d. from the service box center and the centerline is about about 8 d. on the other side. For the best camera alignment to the trajectory, the ball appears to go directly away from or toward the camera.
Example, kick serve.
 
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