Racquet drop: is this correct thinking?

#1
The dynamic motion of the racquet drop has been challenging me for some time. I think i may have it semi worked out now...

So i can get to the correct trophy pose. From there, is it correct in saying that basically the hips/torso rotate(from side fence to nips to net), however you leave the hand/racquet behind a moment later... kind of like forehand lag, but that moment creates the drop?

I think for me its been a timing issue with coordinating this with the toss, since i can do it in shadow strokes. And its a different feeling cos you need a very loose arm to get the racquet to lag behind...
 
#3
The dynamic motion of the racquet drop has been challenging me for some time. I think i may have it semi worked out now...

So i can get to the correct trophy pose. From there, is it correct in saying that basically the hips/torso rotate(from side fence to nips to net), however you leave the hand/racquet behind a moment later... kind of like forehand lag, but that moment creates the drop?

I think for me its been a timing issue with coordinating this with the toss, since i can do it in shadow strokes. And its a different feeling cos you need a very loose arm to get the racquet to lag behind...
The research break through in the tennis serve was in 1995 when ISR was confirmed with motion capture systems based on 3D multi-camera systems that measured the most important joint motions of the serve. The main joint motions were measured vs time as components of racket head speed. For example, one measurement was that 40% of racket head speed at impact was due to internal shoulder rotation, 30% was due to wrist joint motions, etc....

After that 1995 publication there were some excellent analyses of the serve and other strokes by several other researchers. The research was recognized as important, including by the ITF. The reference book, the Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis, 2003, edited by B. Elliott et al resulted and presented much of the work.

An updated reference, 2009, B. Elliott et al, also covered many of the same subjects, Technique Development for Tennis Stroke Production.

These reference are available for low cost from the ITF Store and Kindle, other?.

This information is used by several posters on the forum. But several of the most frequent posters don't seem to be aware of the information in the references. In addition, many frequent posters don't rely on research references or high speed video evidence but on other observations including of their own unknown strokes.

For the serve, the researchers of 20 years ago identified several sub-motions that have the effect of causing external shoulder rotation (ESR). ESR causes the muscles that do ISR to lengthen and stretch. Getting the racket down and back is one observation of the ESR-ISR stretch shorten cycle. (SSC)

The early researchers identified several important sub-motions of the service motion related to the ESR-ISR SSC These included naming the sub-motions of the serve and describing them in the references:
1) leg thrust
2) shoulder-over-shoulder (also called Cartwheel)
3) trunk twist (in the OP you mention the hips/torso rotation but not the others)
4) somersault
5) others

It is easier to discuss the serve with these named sub-motions than without them. Each can be seen in videos.

These sub-motions overlap in time. Some of them contribute to the forearm's going back and down and the racket drop. There is some variation in timing. For example, variation between servers in the time of leg thrust relative to the forearm angle & racket going back and down. The wrist joint also plays a part in the racket's going back and down. The early researchers dealt with these problems and have useful information better than you are likely to find in a post.

An important part of the serve is getting a extraordinary stretch of the ISR muscles. The 'racket drop' is just one useful checkpoint.

Also, having the racket head up away from the elbow helps the above motions to cause ESR. Letting it drop simply to get it down to a checkpoint position will make those sub-motions less effective.

We would have to look at high speed videos of high level servers to time the racket position vs time for each of the 5 sub motions that the early researchers identified for us. Some may occur after the racket is down. There are variations among high level servers.

If you use your own experience with your unknown serving technique for how your racket should drop and are not considering all 5 sub motions above ...????

If anything that you believe about the serve, including from internet instructions, does not agree with what is in the references, check out your beliefs, especially with high speed videos.
 
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#4
The research break through in the tennis serve was in 1995 when ISR was confirmed with motion capture systems based on 3D multi-camera systems that measured the most important joint motions of the serve. The main joint motions were measured vs time as components of racket head speed. For example, one measurement was that 40% of racket head speed at impact was due to internal shoulder rotation, 30% was due to wrist joint motions, etc....

After that 1995 publication there were some excellent analyses of the serve and other strokes by several other researchers. The research was recognized as important, including by the ITF. The reference book, the Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis, 2003, edited by B. Elliott et al resulted and presented much of the work.

An updated reference, 2009, B. Elliott et al, also covered many of the same subjects, Technique Development for Tennis Stroke Production.

These reference are available for low cost from the ITF Store and Kindle, other?.

This information is used by several posters on the forum. But several of the most frequent posters don't seem to be aware of the information in the references. In addition, many frequent posters don't rely on research references or high speed video evidence but on other observations including of their own unknown strokes.

For the serve, the researchers of 20 years ago identified several sub-motions that have the effect of causing external shoulder rotation (ESR). ESR causes the muscles that do ISR to lengthen and stretch. Getting the racket down and back is one observation of the ESR-ISR stretch shorten cycle. (SSC)

The early researchers identified several important sub-motions of the service motion related to the ESR-ISR SSC These included naming the sub-motions of the serve and describing them in the references:
1) leg thrust
2) shoulder-over-shoulder (also called Cartwheel)
3) trunk twist (in the OP you mention the hips/torso rotation but not the others)
4) somersault
5) others

It is easier to discuss the serve with these named sub-motions than without them. Each can be seen in videos.

These sub-motions overlap in time. Some of them contribute to the forearm's going back and down and the racket drop. There is some variation in timing. For example, variation between servers in the time of leg thrust relative to the forearm angle & racket going back and down. The wrist joint also plays a part in the racket's going back and down. The early researchers dealt with these problems and have useful information better than you are likely to find in a post.

An important part of the serve is getting a extraordinary stretch of the ISR muscles. The 'racket drop' is just one useful checkpoint.

Also, having the racket head up away from the elbow helps the above motions to cause ESR. Letting it drop simply to get it down to a checkpoint position will make those sub-motions less effective.

We would have to look at high speed videos of high level servers to time the racket position vs time for each of the 5 sub motions that the early researchers identified for us. Some may occur after the racket is down. There are variations among high level servers.

If you use your own experience with your unknown serving technique for how your racket should drop and are not considering all 5 sub motions above ...????

If anything that you believe about the serve, including from internet instructions, does not agree with what is in the references, check out your beliefs, especially with high speed videos.

Yes now i've been shadow stroking in a reflection of a widow at home, i notice that i can get good racquet drop weather my elbow is open or closed in trophy pose - it doesnt matter. the case could be made that i get a better drop with a more open elbow, since it enables large "bounce" of my forearm going down into trophy pose

It seems like racquet drop is basically the following: trophy pose dynamically bouncing down combined with a well timed leg, torso and shoulder rotation motion (really this should feel like almost one motion because it all kind of happens at the same time. almost.)

Tomaz from feel tennis used the analogy of a child on a swing... to gain the most momentum, the child needs to discover the optimum time to kick their legs out. For me this relates directly to the serve... to find the biggest and most powerful racquet drop, the player needs to time the dropping of the racquet with the rotation of the body.
 
#5
Yes now i've been shadow stroking in a reflection of a widow at home, i notice that i can get good racquet drop weather my elbow is open or closed in trophy pose - it doesnt matter. the case could be made that i get a better drop with a more open elbow, since it enables large "bounce" of my forearm going down into trophy pose

It seems like racquet drop is basically the following: trophy pose dynamically bouncing down combined with a well timed leg, torso and shoulder rotation motion (really this should feel like almost one motion because it all kind of happens at the same time. almost.)

Tomaz from feel tennis used the analogy of a child on a swing... to gain the most momentum, the child needs to discover the optimum time to kick their legs out. For me this relates directly to the serve... to find the biggest and most powerful racquet drop, the player needs to time the dropping of the racquet with the rotation of the body.
What is an open or closed elbow?

Pick a model server of your choosing. Look carefully at how the racket is in relation to the forearm, that is the wrist angle. If the head of the racket is away from the rotation axis (humerus) for ESR, when sub-motions occur, the racket will have more resistance to rotation and cause more ESR and stretch ISR muscles more - a plus. If the racket head is closer to forearm and to the rotation axis for ESR (humerus) the resistance is less and the less ISR muscle stretch will result- a negative. But you only need enough ISR muscle stretch and videos show what the best servers are doing.

Here is a video showing the racket drop. You can time Raonic's leg thrust or jump by when his head moves up. The other sub-motions can be seen.

You should look at similar videos of a few other servers.

The racket will appear at different distances away from the body in videos depending on the camera angle. Determine the real distance and where the racket is by various camera angles. Also, in a mirror view, the distance of the racket from the body can appear closer than it really is. Keep in mind that the upper arm sticks out from the body and that the elbow works well at around 90 d. because 90 degrees moves the racket out from the rotation axis as the wrist angle does also. later when ESR is done in the serve that racket stand-off distance may not be so important.

Post including 'racket leaking' comments and illustration.
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...on-chungs-service-action.552927/#post-9946137

Search racket drop pictures. Look at typical spacing at the lowest point relative to the body from various camera angles. Google: racket drop pictures
https://www.google.com/search?q=rac...hV5GzQIHdheCgwQsAQIKA&biw=845&bih=497#imgrc=_
 
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#6
The research break through in the tennis serve was in 1995 when ISR was confirmed with motion capture systems based on 3D multi-camera systems that measured the most important joint motions of the serve. The main joint motions were measured vs time as components of racket head speed. For example, one measurement was that 40% of racket head speed at impact was due to internal shoulder rotation, 30% was due to wrist joint motions, etc....

After that 1995 publication there were some excellent analyses of the serve and other strokes by several other researchers. The research was recognized as important, including by the ITF. The reference book, the Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis, 2003, edited by B. Elliott et al resulted and presented much of the work.

An updated reference, 2009, B. Elliott et al, also covered many of the same subjects, Technique Development for Tennis Stroke Production.

These reference are available for low cost from the ITF Store and Kindle, other?.

This information is used by several posters on the forum. But several of the most frequent posters don't seem to be aware of the information in the references. In addition, many frequent posters don't rely on research references or high speed video evidence but on other observations including of their own unknown strokes.

For the serve, the researchers of 20 years ago identified several sub-motions that have the effect of causing external shoulder rotation (ESR). ESR causes the muscles that do ISR to lengthen and stretch. Getting the racket down and back is one observation of the ESR-ISR stretch shorten cycle. (SSC)

The early researchers identified several important sub-motions of the service motion related to the ESR-ISR SSC These included naming the sub-motions of the serve and describing them in the references:
1) leg thrust
2) shoulder-over-shoulder (also called Cartwheel)
3) trunk twist (in the OP you mention the hips/torso rotation but not the others)
4) somersault
5) others

It is easier to discuss the serve with these named sub-motions than without them. Each can be seen in videos.

These sub-motions overlap in time. Some of them contribute to the forearm's going back and down and the racket drop. There is some variation in timing. For example, variation between servers in the time of leg thrust relative to the forearm angle & racket going back and down. The wrist joint also plays a part in the racket's going back and down. The early researchers dealt with these problems and have useful information better than you are likely to find in a post.

An important part of the serve is getting a extraordinary stretch of the ISR muscles. The 'racket drop' is just one useful checkpoint.

Also, having the racket head up away from the elbow helps the above motions to cause ESR. Letting it drop simply to get it down to a checkpoint position will make those sub-motions less effective.

We would have to look at high speed videos of high level servers to time the racket position vs time for each of the 5 sub motions that the early researchers identified for us. Some may occur after the racket is down. There are variations among high level servers.

If you use your own experience with your unknown serving technique for how your racket should drop and are not considering all 5 sub motions above ...????

If anything that you believe about the serve, including from internet instructions, does not agree with what is in the references, check out your beliefs, especially with high speed videos.
yeah geez i'll remember that next time i'm serving on court o_O
 
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