Racquet drop question

[Finster]

I video'ed my serve and compared it to some video of people who are actually good at tennis. I noticed that in good serves, the full racquet drop (butt cap pointing directly up) the person is still fully sideways and then the racquet comes up when turning to hit the ball. On my serve, my racquet drop completes only AFTER I begin my turn to hit the ball. When I am sideways, my racquet is only half way dropped. So, should the racquet drop basically be complete while still fully sideways?

 

[ballmachineguy]

Why are you turning while the racquet drops? Where do you think you need to go? You don’t turn so you can send the arm/racquet on a path, you turn as a reaction of where you are sending your arm.

 

[Bagumbawalla]

The serve should, pretty much be a smooth, continuous motion.
Just like a forehand (for example), there is a point where you take the racket back-
then drive it forward. That sudden change in momentum/direction causes the racket head to lag back while the
butt-cap is "pulled" forward causing the head to arc forward toward the ball.

So, it is basically the same with a serve (or throwing a ball).
At the point when you have rocked/loaded your weight onto your back foot
the racket will be in a low intermediate position. then- as you drive your weight up and forward-
(just like a forehand) the racket head will lag down along your back and the butt-cap is pulled
up toward the ball.

At the point when you actually strike the ball, your shoulders will be (more or less) parallel to the service line.

None of these motions or "steps" should be artificial or feel forced.
Like the moon revolving around the earth, it all follows from basic laws of motion.

 

[eah123]

Post video.

 

[AnyPUG]

So, should the racquet drop basically be complete while still fully sideways?

yes, based on the type of serve. Kick for example, server stays sideways longer. Slice, turns a bit early.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I video'ed my serve and compared it to some video of people who are actually good at tennis. I noticed that in good serves, the full racquet drop (butt cap pointing directly up) the person is still fully sideways and then the racquet comes up when turning to hit the ball. On my serve, my racquet drop completes only AFTER I begin my turn to hit the ball. When I am sideways, my racquet is only half way dropped. So, should the racquet drop basically be complete while still fully sideways?

Describing complex 3D tennis motions in tennis terms like 'fully sidewise' will hardly ever agree with what a high speed video shows.

The racket drop clearly is timed with the jump and so is Thoracic Extension.

See my thread on Thoracic Extension of the Spine and the Tennis Serve.

I gave an explanation of what I think is going on with TE from video observations, but have not found a biomechanics reference on the detailed biomechanics of that serve sub-motion. But when your see the same sub-motions on nearly all ATP serves, you should strive to recognize TE in high speed videos. It's really NOT "staying sideways". No one has asked a question about the proposed effect of TE to change the distance between the origins and insertion of the Latissimus Dorsi muscle (lat).

Get a reference book on Kinesiology if you want to dabble in biomechanics. Thompson & Floyd Manual of Structural Kinesiology 15th edition recommended. Used, roughly $15 for an old edition. Great book. I always study the most important joint motions for a body motion and their muscles and use the Kinesiology reference to get some understanding of what might be happening. The reference shows a list of the muscles that supply forces for each joint motion. Biggest muscle is the lat for Internal Shoulder Rotation.

Things don't work out well also if you use terms that cannot be Googled to describe body motions. The science of Kinesiology took care of defining and naming the moving joints, tendons and muscles a hundred years ago in colleges and universities. Google 'Pronation' and then find it in a serve video. Don't pin pronation on the wrong donkey......

 

[Dragy]

I video'ed my serve and compared it to some video of people who are actually good at tennis. I noticed that in good serves, the full racquet drop (butt cap pointing directly up) the person is still fully sideways and then the racquet comes up when turning to hit the ball. On my serve, my racquet drop completes only AFTER I begin my turn to hit the ball. When I am sideways, my racquet is only half way dropped. So, should the racquet drop basically be complete while still fully sideways?

Examine your video for lack of/insufficient leg drive.

 

[Dragy]

Also check this Sampras sequence. He does turn a lot between trophy and “full drop”. He’s not staying sideways, he gets to sideways because he was turned away before.

 

[ballmachineguy]

Also check this Sampras sequence. He does turn a lot between trophy and “full drop”. He’s not staying sideways, he gets to sideways because he was turned away before.

Yes, you actually start turning when the elbow goes up and the racquet drops. It is natural, not something to think about. It is part of dropping the racquet. It facilitates it. Hard/awkward to get the racquet to drop without it.

 

[Dragy]

Yes, you actually start turning when the elbow goes up and the racquet drops. It is natural, not something to think about. It is part of dropping the racquet. It facilitates it. Hard/awkward to get the racquet to drop without it.

Some players do more upward drive and shoulder-over-shoulder. Sampras is one example of very pronounced vertical axis rotation. And arguably best server of all times. Is he best model though?

 

[Finster]

Also check this Sampras sequence. He does turn a lot between trophy and “full drop”. He’s not staying sideways, he gets to sideways because he was turned away before.

Look at the third picture in Sampras' serve. His racquet is fully dropped and he is completely sideways, right leg behind the left, chest pointing to side. That's the pose that is seen with all good servers. This is what instigated my question and its shown here.

 

[Dragy]

Look at the third picture in Sampras' serve. His racquet is fully dropped and he is completely sideways, right leg behind the left, chest pointing to side. That's the pose that is seen with all good servers. This is what instigated my question and its shown here.

Do you have same turn-away like Sampras? Or you start sideways and want to stay sideways?

 

[Chas Tennis]

This post shows racket drop and later. An above video would show it better.

Thoracic Extension then Thoracic Flexion on the tennis serve (slice). Timing.

Use full screen. Single frame on Youtube use the "."& "," keys.
This video has brief messages that last only a few frames.
1) Leg Thrust Starts (at 408ms)
2) Maximum Thoracic Extension (at 133ms)
3) Near Straight Back (at 50ms)
The back goes from 2) to 3) in 83 milliseconds (100ms = 1/10 second).

With 4 second pauses on frame with messages.
Thoracic Extension then Thoracic Flexion on the tennis serve (slice). Timing.

Camera view along the ball's trajectory.

Note body's complex angles at around impact (first frame with "- 0 ms", ball shadow then appears in a few more frames). 'fully sideways'? The racket might appear 'fully dropped' for about 15 frames at 240 fps.

To single frame Youtube, stop video, go full frame and use the period or comma keys.

 

[Finster]

Do you have same turn-away like Sampras? Or you start sideways and want to stay sideways?

Look at Medvedev's serve. Hardly any coil, body stays pretty much sideways until he turns to swing. Body is totally sideways at racquet drop. See at 0:10.

 

[Dragy]

Look at Medvedev's serve. Hardly any coil, body stays pretty much sideways until he turns to swing. Body is totally sideways at racquet drop. See at 0:10.

Yeah, sure, I was just clarifying your approach.

I suggested in my first response: more leg drive. To add to that:

- More shoulder tilt in prep, tossing arm vertical
- Open chest up to the ball
- Swing up at the ball, not forward
- Use continental grip

Anyway, you’ll get a range from turned away (more like Sampras or less like Medvedev) towards some degree of opening by contact. Drop phase is somewhere in between. Aim to be less open while contacting the ball, and your full drop will be when you are still rather sideways.

But video needed to actually see what’s fundamentally wrong, or is it good motion

 

[AnyPUG]

Look at the third picture in Sampras' serve. His racquet is fully dropped and he is completely sideways, right leg behind the left, chest pointing to side. That's the pose that is seen with all good servers. This is what instigated my question and its shown here.

He is more sideways in the 2nd frame than 3rd. The drop happens after starting to uncoil. It's too rapid for naked if you are watching in real time.
Same with Federer - more sideways in frame 4 than in frames after racket begins to drop.

However, for rec player who are not likely to have a serve with continuous motion from the trophy position, it's better to remain sideways and drop the racket before starting to uncoil.
Most rec players over rotate with shallow drop which can be compensated somewhat by remaining sideways longer.

 

[Dragy]

He is more sideways in the 2nd frame than 3rd. The drop happens after starting to uncoil. It's too rapid for naked if you are watching in real time.
Same with Federer - more sideways in frame 4 than in frames after racket begins to drop.

However, for rec player who are not likely to have a serve with continuous motion from the trophy position, it's better to remain sideways and drop the racket before starting to uncoil.
Most rec players over rotate with shallow drop which can be compensated somewhat by remaining sideways longer.

Looks like kick serve, Fed.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Look at Medvedev's serve. Hardly any coil, body stays pretty much sideways until he turns to swing. Body is totally sideways at racquet drop. See at 0:10.

Always check with match footage to make sure the player has not just started to warm up.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

Look at the third picture in Sampras' serve. His racquet is fully dropped and he is completely sideways, right leg behind the left, chest pointing to side. That's the pose that is seen with all good servers. This is what instigated my question and its shown here.

Sure, he is still sideways but his torso, especially his upward torso has definitely started to rotate (uncoil) to facilitate his racquet drop. In that 3rd image, his hips are no longer pointing in the same direction as it was for his trophy phase. His chest has rotated even more. Particularly look at his right pec, shoulder & elbow. They all have rotated upward as well as forward.

The racquet drop is also facilitated by the leg drive. The legs (knees) start to extend as the racquet starts to drop. The legs are fully extended by the time the racquet is at the bottom of the drop.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Look at Medvedev's serve. Hardly any coil, body stays pretty much sideways until he turns to swing. Body is totally sideways at racquet drop. See at 0:10.

I don't agree with this analysis. I see the racket still in a drop position and the line between the two shoulders has not 'stayed sideways'. Look at all serves. Look always at the last frame of racket drop. Otherwise racket drop is not defined.

Many threads have many posts where posters are arguing over their own meanings for undefined tennis terms such as 'staying sideways' or 'racket drop,' Here the OP assumes that that racket drop occurs at a specific instant, but RD appears over many frames as the body is turning. This is the most complicated part of the serve with many moving parts. The body is tilted and shoulder-over-shoulder is occurring.

This video has peculiar frame advance when the period & comma keys are pressed, sometimes it does not advance. ?

 

[Dragy]

I don't agree with this analysis. I see the racket still in a drop position and the line between the two shoulders has not 'stayed sideways'. Look at all serves. Look always at the last frame of racket drop. Otherwise racket drop is not defined.

Many thread have many posts where posters are arguing over their use of undefined tennis terms such as 'staying sideways' or 'racket drop' and assuming it is a specific time but it appears over many frames. This is the most complicated part of the serve with many moving parts. The body is tilted and shoulder over shoulder is occurring. The video has peculiar frame advance when the period & comma keys are pressed.

Coco Gauff, 175cm high, serves up to 125mph. Do you think they gave her defined terms, or some pointers on how to orient her body in general, how to swing edge-on, etc?

 

[AnyPUG]

Coco Gauff, 175cm high, serves up to 125mph. Do you think they gave her defined terms, or some pointers on how to orient her body in general, how to swing edge-on, etc?

Many threads have many posts where posters are arguing over who really Coco Gauff is. Use of undefined tennis terms such as 'dancing at the usopen as a child' or someone that made her hideous looking people and assuming it is Coco at a specific time but it appears over many years. Get high speed video, press shift, comma keys and ask questions to get answers.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Coco Gauff, 175cm high, serves up to 125mph. Do you think they gave her defined terms, or some pointers on how to orient her body in general, how to swing edge-on, etc?

How do you think that Gauff learned the serve?

Obviously, there are very knowledgeable coaches and instructors that are capable of training serving for the top 100 players of the ATP and WTA. How many such coaches are there world wide? The cost of such serve lessons?

Even I posted, however, that Sabalenka tossed very high and broke off looking at the ball extremely early relative to most ATP servers. Purely a differences observation in videos. The video that I used was even a serve instructional video by Sabalenka!

Difference.

Here, single frame through her ball watching.

Did you see Sabalenka serve analysis on ESPN?

Brad Gilbert and one other guy pointed out that her toss was too high and she was varying the plane of the racket face a couple of times from before trophy to trophy to impact and these were the reasons for her service woes. They used frame by frame analysis from the broadcast. They advised...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

Have you seen the Nadal serve fix video ?

 

[ballmachineguy]

Some players do more upward drive and shoulder-over-shoulder. Sampras is one example of very pronounced vertical axis rotation. And arguably best server of all times. Is he best model though?

My point was that the shoulder has a part in the loop the racquet makes. You can try and do a full serve motion without moving that hitting shoulder but it is impossible for most humans. It will have to make the move toward bringing the arm to contact to complete the drop. It may be all vertical, all horizontal or probably in between, but is is gonna happen. You can’t get in the following position without starting the shoulder toward contact.

https://imgur.com/a/c6glJSE

Sorry for the crappy screen grab. You get the picture.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Forth & Back

When I look at his body and compare a line across his chest to the line on the court behind his chest, I see what is going on from a high camera view. Does anyone think that anything seen in this video is untrue?

For Youtube, hold down the period key, then the comma key, back & forth, again & again across any part of the stroke. This video was recorded at 240 fps.

What is true?

This same forth & back technique can be used with slow GIFs.

Kinovea used for video analysis, countdown timer and text.

 

[Dragy]

You can’t get in the following position without starting the shoulder toward contact.

Sure, agreed

 

[Chas Tennis]

Sampras timeline showing body positions and orientations from toss release until 'fully pronated' position (not necessary but often seen)

If we had timelines identifying positions and sub-motions for the high level serve technique we could just post them and move the forums along to some more new things.

These images show the serve sequence, all there, just point your eyes. It is hard to argue or misunderstand what's there. (In the Sampras pictures there are not enough frames per second for the faster parts of the serve.)

I see Sampras 'staying' in an orientation of roughly 45 degrees to the baseline until his toss drops to where he wants and then going through the more complex sub-motions of his service motion like his jump, Thoracic Extension, racket drop and a list of his other sub-motions. This same problem also has been posted many times regarding the comment, 'for the kick serve stay sideways to hit the ball'. Videos do not agree, but they do indicate more sideways. If we had a similar 14 frames of Sampras's serves for the Flat, Slice and Kick serves, we would have what's needed to answer many forum threads correctly. But instead many threads, like this one, are just about undefined tennis terms and everybody's take on those terms.

'hit up and out', 'stay sideways', 'keep your eye on the ball' (not true for serve), 'step forward', 'shift your weight', 'for the kick serve toss the ball behind your head' and many more false tennis words that I can't recall. Viewing videos gets rid of the tennis term myths. Words point out what to look for in videos and that's useful.

OP, this is not about your thread, it's about years of how we answer threads like yours on the forum.

 

[Dragy]

hit up and out, stay sideways, keep your eye on the ball (not true for serve), step forward, shift your weight, for the kick serve toss the ball behind your head and many more I can't recall. Viewing videos gets rid of the tennis term myths. Words point out what to look for in videos.

These exact words said in the right moment + actual on-court practice allow players to maximize their serve quality, like Coco Gauff.

Arguing on forum and staring into videos without listening to those who actually helps players/themselves develop good serves - not so fruitful.

 

[Dragy]

OP, this is not about your thread, it's about years of how we answer threads like yours on the forum.

“We” answer to the threads in way that allows people to come back and post videos of improved serves, duh

 

[Chas Tennis]

These exact words said in the right moment + actual on-court practice allow players to maximize their serve quality, like Coco Gauff.

Arguing on forum and staring into videos without listening to those who actually helps players/themselves develop good serves - not so fruitful.

Did you have any evidence of the terms that Gauff or other pros and their instructors used?

All on my list were false and misleading. We don't agree on these mushy tennis pieces of advice that do not agree with high speed videos. I believe I've posted videos on each thing in my list, that's evidence.

Sampras stays at about 45 degrees to the baseline as he waits for his toss to fall to the right height to begin the last part of the serve that has no 'staying'. That is what the frames show. Telling someone to stay 'fully sideways' for some unknown and time unconnected to anything else is misleading if there toss is a different height.

'Staying' means something to the OP with his unknown toss height but he has an unknown technique, known only as the familiar 'my serve'. I hope that the OP will look at the Sampras picture and see mostly that 'staying' in a position does not communicate enough information to be helpful.

Toss height is the most important factor determining the time from toss release to impact. There is a very brief and significant time leading to impact that needs understanding from high speed videos.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Do you have same turn-away like Sampras? Or you start sideways and want to stay sideways?

Sampras is more coiled away at the start of the forward motion. It is true.
And there is much rotation along the long axis leading up till contact.
Is this a Sampras first serve? Or second serve?

Jim McClennan suggests "staying sideways" at contact as much as possible. But it is not quite clear to me whether this "stay sideways" instruction
is relative to the net or relative to the starting position.

My take is that, ideally, one should have rotation along the vertical axis, as we see with Sampras and yet still strive to be "sideways at contact".
Sampras can have the best of both worlds since he is coiled away so much. But club players without the Sampras coil will have more difficulty staying sideways.

According to Jim McLennan video, there are 3 actions the shoulder girdle can do:

1) Somersaulting. Arch the back and straighten. aka Thoracic Extension/Flexion.

2) Cartwheeling. aka shoulder-over-shoulder.

3) Rotation along the long axis (the spine). aka vertical axis rotation.


Jim:
"I am now placing all my coaching emphasis on the cartwheeling.
If you notice Federer at contact, he will be sideways, and his rotation along the long axis is at the last moment."

 

[Dragy]

My take is that, ideally, one should have rotation along the vertical axis, as we see with Sampras and yet still strive to be "sideways at contact".
Sampras can have the best of both worlds since he is coiled away so much. But club players without the Sampras coil will have more difficulty staying sideways.

It depends a lot on what kind of serve you prefer. Again, I'm very impressed with Gauff serving up to 200kmh. She's very gifted athlete, but cmon, 175cm lady serving into 190s consistently - must be doing something right with technique. Is she sideways by contact? (clocking 201kmh)

Yannik, another great server of today:

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

It depends a lot on what kind of serve you prefer. Again, I'm very impressed with Gauff serving up to 200kmh. She's very gifted athlete, but cmon, 175cm lady serving into 190s consistently - must be doing something right with technique. Is she sideways by contact? (clocking 201kmh)

Is she sideways by contact?

No, she is not sideways at contact. I am assuming that is her flat serve.
Would another viable option be for her to experiment and coil away similar to Sampras and be more sideways at contact?

Is this Sampras first serve? Camera angles confuse me, but Sampras appears to be much more closed at contact compared to Gauff.

 

[Dragy]

No, she is not sideays at contact.
Would another viable option for be to experiment and coil away similar to Sampras and be more sideways at contact?

To hit flat serve? No. Sampras has been hitting ton of spin on his first serves. That’s what makes him so incredible, spin+pace. Raonic has similar manner, in terms of how balls go off his racquet. Hurcaz also, I think.

To his flat serve at your max, you need to drive front shoulder over the top forward enough. Same to hit power slices (but you kind of open forward to hit wide to the left).

If you go with power serves with topspin, or just kick serves - you open more up than forward.

I think “stay sideways” instruction is aimed against over rotation issue, which is very common. But it’s not a true technical description of optimal serve.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

To hit flat serve? No. Sampras has been hitting ton of spin on his first serves. That’s what makes him so incredible, spin+pace. Raonic has similar manner, in terms of how balls go off his racquet. Hurcaz also, I think.

Jim McClennan says that Federer is very sideways at contact on his first serves. Hence his coaching emphasis on staying sideways, and delaying the long axis rotation to the last moment.

 

[Dragy]

Jim McClennan says that Federer is very sideways at contact on his first serves. Hence his coaching emphasis on staying sideways, and delaying the long axis rotation to the last moment.

Federer yes, less opening. But he's hardly best model, despite how good a server he has always been.

PM would say difference between players is because of eye dominance.

 

[Chas Tennis]

It depends a lot on what kind of serve you prefer. Again, I'm very impressed with Gauff serving up to 200kmh. She's very gifted athlete, but cmon, 175cm lady serving into 190s consistently - must be doing something right with technique. Is she sideways by contact? (clocking 201kmh)

Yannik, another great server of today:

Draggy

Better_Call_Raul was posting using AI and it was not at first clear to me. I spent a lot of my time replying to AI information. AI has a strange information content and seemed to find a lot more biomechanical information than the average forum posters. I ignore Better_call_Raul now. Check out how many posts he is making.

AI can post a lot of information on forums. There were simple issues that AI did not understand and was generating questions about. When people communicate with AI is can spawn a lot of nugatory information, and false information.

Ask Better_Call_Raul questions about what he has posted and why.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Yes, you actually start turning when the elbow goes up and the racquet drops. It is natural, not something to think about. It is part of dropping the racquet. It facilitates it. Hard/awkward to get the racquet to drop without it.

My point was that the shoulder has a part in the loop the racquet makes. You can try and do a full serve motion without moving that hitting shoulder but it is impossible for most humans. It will have to make the move toward bringing the arm to contact to complete the drop. It may be all vertical, all horizontal or probably in between, but is is gonna happen. You can’t get in the following position without starting the shoulder toward contact.

https://imgur.com/a/c6glJSE

Sorry for the crappy screen grab. You get the picture.

There is significant variation even among ATP servers at contact (just look at the Sampras image compared to Gauff or Sinner in this thread already). Need the link to that serve to understand what's really going on, but I think the point is that entering deepest part of the racquet drop, the hips should still be pointing sideways somewhat as the shoulders start to cartwheel (or whatever you want to call it). If the hips are both pointing to the target and the racquet hasn't started come up into contact then that's a problem.

I've done this a long time ago but anyone interested can take a close look at the contact point for Kyrgios or Fritz or Ivanisevic or Roddick or Hurkacz or Safin on a flat down the T serve to the deuce court and see what you find (use similar camera angles). Then look at Fed or Sampras. Then look at Serena Williams. It is quite interesting.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Federer yes, less opening. But he's hardly best model, despite how good a server he has always been.

Some players do more upward drive and shoulder-over-shoulder. Sampras is one example of very pronounced vertical axis rotation. And arguably best server of all times. Is he best model though?

I would say there is no downside to coiling away similar to Sampras. As long as you successfully come out of the coil, it should not be a problem.
Due to his coil, Sampras has both great rotation along the long vertical spine and shoulder-over-shoulder cartwheel motion.
Simply shifting the back foot back will give more coil. I would suggest club players experiment with this and observe the results.
The main point is that rotation along the long vertical spine is a critical component.

I achieved immediate results by coiling away ala Sampras. As for position at contact, you can either be more closed like Sampras or more open like Gauff.
I try to stay more closed (sideways) at contact and seem to observe better results.

You mentioned that a common club player is over-rotation and opening up too much at contact.
Where is the line for over-rotation at contact? How is it diagnosed? I can't imagine being more open than Gauff at contact.
It would feel awkward and I doubt that my serve would even go in with over-rotation.

 

[Digital Atheist]

I would say there is no downside to coiling away similar to Sampras. As long as you successfully come out of the coil, it should not be a problem

You mentioned the downside right there - inability to efficiently come out of extreme rotation! Since the majority of pro's don't use that extreme body turn away from the net, the question of why needs to be asked. From my observations, platform servers generally have more rotation than pinpointers.

You mentioned that a common club player is over-rotation and opening up too much at contact

The problem is that most amateurs over rotate in ways that are associated with other technical deficiencies (like stepping too far with the back foot and opening the hips up almost immediately, or no shoulder tilt at trophy position, or faulty entry into the racquet drop, among other things). Gauff isn't an ATP server, and strangely there are some differences. Look at Serena serving bombs down the T and you will see her hitting shoulder is sometimes actually in front of her non dominant arm - something Raonic in one of his videos says is a big no-no. That's why Chas always recommends looking at ATP serves. Ultimately, the back hip is the key to this and as long as it stays back slightly at contact while shoulder over shoulder is executed (hip angle pointing to the net post or thereabouts, which Gauff and Sinner kinda do) and the toss arm folds in, then there's a good chance things were done correctly.

If OP is worried about over rotating or rotating incorrectly, then the only way to know what's going on is for someone who has a clue (like his coach) to analyse the video, if he isn't willing to put it up here. Otherwise, this is an exercise in futility and maybe they can learn something from watching this, since it might address his problem (or bite the bullet and post the video).

I achieved immediate results by coiling away ala Sampras

Additional thoracic extension and increased coiling must mean we are due for an updated serve video?

 

[Chas Tennis]

You mentioned the downside right there - inability to efficiently come out of extreme rotation! Since the majority of pro's don't use that extreme body turn away from the net, the question of why needs to be asked. From my observations, platform servers generally have more rotation than pinpointers.


The problem is that most amateurs over rotate in ways that are associated with other technical deficiencies (like stepping too far with the back foot and opening the hips up almost immediately, or no shoulder tilt at trophy position, or faulty entry into the racquet drop, among other things). Gauff isn't an ATP server, and strangely there are some differences. Look at Serena serving bombs down the T and you will see her hitting shoulder is actually in front of her non dominant arm - something Raonic in one of his videos says is a big no-no. That's why Chas always recommends looking at ATP serves. Ultimately, the back hip is the key to this and as long as it stays back slightly at contact while shoulder over shoulder is executed (hip angle pointing to the net post or thereabouts, which Gauff and Sinner kinda do) then there's a good chance things were done correctly.

If OP is worried about over rotating or rotating incorrectly, then the only way to know what's going on is for someone who has a clue (like his coach) to analyse the video, if he isn't willing to put it up here. Otherwise, this is an exercise in futility and maybe they can learn something from watching this, since it might address his problem (or bite the bullet and post the video).

Additional thoracic extension and increased coiling must mean we are due for an updated serve video?

Better_Call_Raul posted AI information and at first it was unclear to me. I wasted a lot of time thinking that I was talking to a human poster. But the poster was using AI generated information. You may be communicating with a poster that is getting information from Google AI Bard. Better_Call_Raul explained what he was doing to some degree. He gave his reasons to justify posting AI for his purposes. For me it was taking more of my time that I did not want taken. I'm ignoring Better_Call_Raul.

Check how much he posts and ask him what he is doing.

Here is the thread with Better_Call_Raul's use of AI. Later are some posts where we discuss the AI.

ESR Question: Spot the Difference in the Images

Hello again, On the left is a still frame of Nicolas Moreno from the "My Tennis HQ" YouTube channel. On the right is me in roughly the same position. You can see I've highlighted the difference in "supination" with the red lines in the images. The tip of his racquet is facing down, and his...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

 

[Dragy]

Look at Serena serving bombs down the T and you will see her hitting shoulder is sometimes actually in front of her non dominant arm - something Raonic in one of his videos says is a big no-no. That's why Chas always recommends looking at ATP serves.

Serena has been using Aussie grip (shifted towards EFH from conti) in her power serves, this may be related.

Also, if you watch carefully, you can notice in today’s ATP pros serving from the ad side: when they go “flat” wide serve, they sometimes seem to add tiny bit of reverse spin. Delivering such serves they almost fully open towards the net with their chests, but the ball goes wide to the left, so technically they are overrating

I mean, dogma is shifting, some alterations get successfully applied.

I talk Rublev, Sinner, for example. Not Djokovic, neither Zverev I noticed doing this.

 

[Dragy]

Draggy

Better_Call_Raul was posting using AI and it was not at first clear to me. I spent a lot of my time replying to AI information. AI has a strange information content and seemed to find a lot more biomechanical information than the average forum posters. I ignore Better_call_Raul now. Check out how many posts he is making.

AI can post a lot of information on forums. There were simple issues that AI did not understand and was generating questions about. When people communicate with AI is can spawn a lot of nugatory information, and false information.

Ask Better_Call_Raul questions about what he has posted and why.

I’m not sharing your worries at this point.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Better_Call_Raul posted AI information and at first it was unclear to me. I wasted a lot of time thinking that I was talking to a human poster. But the poster was using AI generated information. You may be communicating with a poster that is getting information from Google AI Bard. Better_Call_Raul explained what he was doing to some degree. He gave his reasons to justify posting AI for his purposes. For me it was taking more of my time that I did not want taken. I'm ignoring Better_Call_Raul.

Check how much he posts and ask him what he is doing.

Here is the thread with Better_Call_Raul's use of AI. Later are some posts where we discuss the AI.

ESR Question: Spot the Difference in the Images

Hello again, On the left is a still frame of Nicolas Moreno from the "My Tennis HQ" YouTube channel. On the right is me in roughly the same position. You can see I've highlighted the difference in "supination" with the red lines in the images. The tip of his racquet is facing down, and his...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

I’m not sharing your worries at this point.

Raul is not an AI poster.

Serena has been using Aussie grip (shifted towards EFH from conti) in her power serves, this may be related.

Indeed, it could be. Camera angles are tricky since sometimes even Z man gets his hitting shoulder well forward, but look at his back hip.

This is a first serve taken from:

I will also repost an image from another thread, since it is relevant. All flat serves with varying contact points. Two words - back hip!

Edit: In addition to back hip, non dominant arm tucking in is the other key to assist the arm in coming through as the body almost stops. But once again, that assumes other reasonable fundamentals are in place.

 

[TennisDawg]

Look at Medvedev's serve. Hardly any coil, body stays pretty much sideways until he turns to swing. Body is totally sideways at racquet drop. See at 0:10.

Look at Medvedev's serve. Hardly any coil, body stays pretty much sideways until he turns to swing. Body is totally sideways at racquet drop. See at 0:10.

That’s not what I see. Medvedev begans to open up before the racquet drop is complete. Yes as he begans the drop body is sideways but very quickly he begans to open up. The drop is when he begans the acceleration into contact and it has to be very fast .