Racquet flexibility indication

[winstonlim8]

I'd be most grateful if anyone could tell me whether there's any way that a racquet's flexibility is indicated among the specs normally printed on the throat or shaft.

I've got bad tennis elbow and pain in the shoulder from using my Wilson Hybrid N6 which is also too light for me and I have to change my racquet or I have to stop playing.

I'm going to look for a head light, flexible racquet that's at least 11 oz (>310 gms or more) and arm friendly.

 

[anirut]

I'm going to look for a head light, flexible racquet that's at least 11 oz (>310 gms or more) and arm friendly.

PK Redondo, Volkl 10 series, and a few more.

I suggest you look at the specs in TW's catalog and then shop around for the racket in your area. No all brands have stiffness mentioned on the rackets. Dunlop Bio's have it mentioned on the bridge.

 

[winstonlim8]

Thanks, Anirut. I'd love to be able to buy directly from here so that I can find a frame that's got all the specs I need and probably been reviewed but I live in Malaysia and many of the frames cannot be exported or obtained where I live.

My racquet has something that says SI:7.2 Is that the stiffness indicator?

 

[Bartelby]

That's a Wilson swing index so it's a system unique to that brand.

 

[DustinW]

Look for stiffness or RA. Some manufacturers list it on the frame and some don't. Here is a Dunlop that shows it.

As a general guide (at least in my opinion)...
67 and up: stiff
63-67 : medium stiffness
62 and below: flexible (arm friendly)

 

[HRB]

Look for stiffness or RA. Some manufacturers list it on the frame and some don't. Here is a Dunlop that shows it.

As a general guide (at least in my opinion)...
67 and up: stiff
63-67 : medium stiffness
62 and below: flexible (arm friendly)

Stiffness is tricky though...sometimes a racquet has such great weight/swing weight/balance ratio that it just feels great, irregardless of a high stiffness RA...

Perfect example is PS Classic 6.1 95...listed at over 70, but one of the most solid, non jarring awesome hits out there! Never bothered my arm...other modern sticks in the 65-70 range killed me.

My Raddy TT feels like a wet noodle, i.prestige in the middle, and the PSC at the top...no arm issues what so ever from any of them. I think just moving up in weight, down in headsize, and to more headlight balance should find you very pleased.

 

[winstonlim8]

Thank you so much for your help, everybody. At least now I have a better understanding of what to look for.


I don't play a power game by any means because I don't have the talent, coordination, or stamina to bang the ball for a long time. I play an attacking all-court game - SV when I can, chip and charge on return (I take the ball as early as possible on ROS, sometimes from within 8-10 feet of the service line.)

I don't think I have a powerful serve even though I get many cheap points, but that's mainly because of placement and spin I suspect.

And my best shots are my backhand flat-slice taken on the rise which I can hit very hard with a very relaxed swing, quite accurately and very low to make it skid when it bounces. I also have a good backhand volley (both touch and power) and backhand overhead which I place more than trying to bang hard. I hit flat-topspin backhands as passing shots against net rushers or (either short crosscourt, inside-out or down the line) against baseliners.

My forehand is reliable but nowhere near my backhand in terms of weight of shot, touch or spin variety though I can hit a decent, low skidding slice off my right. My forehand volleys are a constant source of heartbreak. As are my overheads because I'm usually too lazy to get back into position and turn my shoulders properly.

Normally, I can play until my strings go dead because other than getting bite on the slices, I don't hit with a lot of spin other than a moderate amount on my forehand.

So given all that and with my physical limitations, to recap just in case I didn't understand correctly, I should look for -

1.a heavier racquet (11 oz or more)
2.head light (around or slightly more than 5 pts)
3.a high swing weight
4.more flexibility (50-60 pts)

And I should string at a lower tension (40-45 lbs) with multifilament or synthetic gut.

Is that correct?

 

[fuzz nation]

I'd say you're on the right track. A little more beef in your racquet should be a plus for your slice and your volleys. You don't need to be hoisting a caveman club out there, but some extra stability ought to give you better ability to punch the ball around the court. Even a frame in the neighborhood of 11.5 oz. shouldn't be bananas-heavy.

I grew up serve and volleying and I've always liked racquets heavier than 12 oz. for stability around the net and also for slicing with good bite on those shots. Balance is important for a racquets handling behavior - as they get heavier, I like them to also be more head-light. I'm currently enjoying 12.5 oz. racquets with about 10 pts. HL balance. Just something to be aware of as you look around.

As for strings, multifiber or synthetic gut ought to be kinder and gentler for your arm than less resilient stuff like poly or Kevlar. I string my own frames and my favorite string these days is Tecnifibre's syn. gut. Prince's SG with Duraflex can play a little too firm for my taste, but I generally like the combo of softness and crisp feel that I usually find with syn. gut. If your arm health is a top priority, you may want to start out with a multi simply to get a softer setup to start out.

As for tension, 40-45 lbs. might work for some poly users in some cases, but that range of tension would probably be too low for syn. gut or multi. If a frame has a recommended range of let's say 50-60 lbs., start with a tension of maybe 50-52 lbs. Whatever you decide, remember that the first "guess" with string and tension will give you a reference, but it might be not exactly right.

 

[anirut]

Winstonlim, I understand your pain. I'm in the country just north of Malaysia and have the same problem. I use TW's main site and check the specs of the rackets I'm interested in.

BTW, PK Redondo's available in S'pore and Thailand, just in case you're interested.

 

[winstonlim8]

Thanks so much, Fuzz-Nation & Anirut. I really appreciate all you guys have told me.

Don't laugh but I went out and got a Wilson 3LX today. It's 11.1oz and headlight by 11 pts unstrung, I think. No indication of flexibility except a sort of meter grafic that showed it 3/4 way towards "control" (between that and "power") so I thought that might be a safe indicator. I had it strung with a Prince multifilament at 45 lbs.

All my life I've played with head heavy racquets no more than 10.5 oz strung but once when I tried out my Dad's very old Prince Thunderstick which weighed 12 oz, I didn't have much problem swinging it and volleying with it, either, so I thought it might be worthwhile to get an 11+ oz racquet even though that's much heavier than my usual ones.

Just to be on the safe side (and not to make too big a fool of myself) I told my friends that I needed to rest my arm for a few days. And I'll do that (I don't like telling a lie) but as soon as my arm feels a bit better I'm going to bang some balls against a nearby wall to get used to my new racquet first. And practise serves with 100 balls, before I show my face at the club again, too.

Anirut, I won't be able to visit your beautiful country on holiday (and shopping) until the middle of next year as my clients have come for their annual vacations and I'm in the midst of ghost writing 4 separate books.

 

[winstonlim8]

Sorry I forgot to mention that at 5' 10" tall and weighing 190 lbs, I'm far from being a typically built Asian of my generation. But I always used light racquets because I was afraid I wouldn't have the strength to swing anything heavier on a regular basis. A bit silly, I know, since my old wooden racquets were probably at least 11 oz to start with...

But then...my sister started using an 11 oz racquet last month and powdering the ball with her groundies, serves, overheads and volleys...and I developed tennis elbow, tennis bicep, and tennis shoulder over the last couple of weeks...

*sigh*

 

[Muppet]

I'd love to see flex pattern graphics for each of the racquets that TW playtests. In ski magazines, they used to show how stiff a ski was in the shovel, waist, and tail by showing a continuous line on a graph for each model. They don't do that anymore, but I used to pour over that stuff. It would be great if we could see the stiffer and softer parts of the racquets in the same way. Whadaya say, TW?

 

[fuzz nation]

Best of luck with your new rig!!! And also with cheering up that arm.

 

[winstonlim8]

Thanks...but there's just one catch. It hasn't stopped raining since I bought my new racquet. I swear the skies opened up the minute I had the receipt in my hand!

 

[HRB]

Thanks...but there's just one catch. It hasn't stopped raining since I bought my new racquet. I swear the skies opened up the minute I had the receipt in my hand!

I'd kill for rain...at least it eventually ends...but here in upstate NY it is 30 degrees...which means goodbye free outdoor tennis! Cold Balls are a sure fire arm killer!!!

Pay for play from here on out...yuck!

 

[winstonlim8]

I am so ready for the junk heap. I actually bought a Wilson BLX Pro Tour and I kept thinking it was just Wilson 3LX. Gaaah! My vision must be deteriorating quicker than 55 years of sin can account for.

Hope I didn't confuse anybody with the 3LX thing in my earlier post.

My new racquet is supposed to have a flex rating of 62. Does that mean it is more or less flexible? I'm a bit confused about that.

Sorry to hear about the cold weather in NY, HRB. I tried to play outdoors in the hills in Europe during autumn ONCE. And that was quite enough for me, too, so I understand.

PS
Muppet, what are flex pattern graphics? I'm sorry but I'm so outdated about tennis racquets that I don't understand half of the specs for any racquet I see on the internet nowadays.

 

[Tamiya]

I've got bad tennis elbow and pain in the shoulder from using my Wilson Hybrid N6 which is also too light for me and I have to change my racquet or I have to stop playing.

I'm going to look for a head light, flexible racquet that's at least 11 oz (>310 gms or more) and arm friendly.

So given all that and with my physical limitations, to recap just in case I didn't understand correctly, I should look for -

1.a heavier racquet (11 oz or more)
2.head light (around or slightly more than 5 pts)
3.a high swing weight
4.more flexibility (50-60 pts)

And I should string at a lower tension (40-45 lbs) with multifilament or synthetic gut.

Is that correct?

Thanks, Anirut. I'd love to be able to buy directly from here so that I can find a frame that's got all the specs I need and probably been reviewed but I live in Malaysia and many of the frames cannot be exported or obtained where I live.

assuming west Malaysia... hop on a coach to SG matey, take a daytrip.
Could be cheaper to buy a racquet there +GST +fare than retail in MY.

I grew up in KL swinging ultra stiff super light Wilsons. Crazy power!
Now some decades on... Can't live the young life anymore :|

Tried to ditch Wilson for Prince, they're big head with mass... Helped a little.
But that big head allows lazy aiming which sets up torsional shock
so it's not too good for the olde elbow.

Then I discovered vintage PC600 :twisted: small head, soft, heavy.
But to make these work I've had to revamp stroke to long sweeps,
no more dinky ping pong from the baseline. Small head must concentrate.
No power so I string it with Multi looser... it's heaven in a calfskin grip.

 

[Muppet]

I am so ready for the junk heap. I actually bought a Wilson BLX Pro Tour and I kept thinking it was just Wilson 3LX. Gaaah! My vision must be deteriorating quicker than 55 years of sin can account for.

Hope I didn't confuse anybody with the 3LX thing in my earlier post.

My new racquet is supposed to have a flex rating of 62. Does that mean it is more or less flexible? I'm a bit confused about that.

Sorry to hear about the cold weather in NY, HRB. I tried to play outdoors in the hills in Europe during autumn ONCE. And that was quite enough for me, too, so I understand.

PS
Muppet, what are flex pattern graphics? I'm sorry but I'm so outdated about tennis racquets that I don't understand half of the specs for any racquet I see on the internet nowadays.

I haven't seen any flex pattern graphs for tennis racquets yet. It would just be a two-axis graph of force x deflection, where a curve (line) on the graph would climb and dip according to the amount of stiffness in each part of a racquet's length. That way, we could see where the flexibility is and where it's stiffer. Another flex pattern could be graphed for torsional rigidity. I think manufacturers must be doing this kind of testing during prototyping. Does TW test racquets this way?

 

[Tamiya]

I haven't seen any flex pattern graphs for tennis racquets yet. It would just be a two-axis graph of force x deflection, where a curve (line) on the graph would climb and dip according to the amount of stiffness in each part of a racquet's length. That way, we could see where the flexibility is and where it's stiffer. Another flex pattern could be graphed for torsional rigidity. I think manufacturers must be doing this kind of testing during prototyping. Does TW test racquets this way?

this could be a contentious measurement as racquets respond differently
from sudden sharp impact compared to say bending forces from hanging weight.

also many racquets are done with "tapering beam" or "double taper" or
"Constant beam" not to mention different layup in construction of frame,
pumping in "Liquidmetal" or threading some piezoelectric intelligent fibres
before you go around drilling "flexpoint" holes in the Head

or worse... how will you chart a ProKennex Asymmetric?
It's got different profile beam on either side :twisted:
which suggests possibly a torsional twist on impact/response
which could be spin affecting...

 

[ART ART]

I'd love to see flex pattern graphics for each of the racquets that TW playtests. In ski magazines, they used to show how stiff a ski was in the shovel, waist, and tail by showing a continuous line on a graph for each model. They don't do that anymore, but I used to pour over that stuff. It would be great if we could see the stiffer and softer parts of the racquets in the same way. Whadaya say, TW?

YES !!!

this would be nice!

there's a machine (can't remember the name/brand) that can calculate stiffness at various locations in a racket.

TW ??

(maybe someone can send an email to TW with this ... )

 

[Muppet]

this could be a contentious measurement as racquets respond differently
from sudden sharp impact compared to say bending forces from hanging weight.

also many racquets are done with "tapering beam" or "double taper" or
"Constant beam" not to mention different layup in construction of frame,
pumping in "Liquidmetal" or threading some piezoelectric intelligent fibres
before you go around drilling "flexpoint" holes in the Head

or worse... how will you chart a ProKennex Asymmetric?
It's got different profile beam on either side :twisted:
which suggests possibly a torsional twist on impact/response
which could be spin affecting...

Since when are lab results conclusive? I'd just like to see this kind of information made available, the same way I like to use the RSI string stiffness table, with the understding that my mileage may vary.

 

[Tamiya]

Since when are lab results conclusive? I'd just like to see this kind of information made available, the same way I like to use the RSI string stiffness table, with the understding that my mileage may vary.

meh I don't trust stats from any boffin in a labcoat either
Nothing like testing the stick myself, back2back with known/similar string job.

Myself I learnt a fair bit tweaking golf sticks... there we can reshaft,
choice between regular & stiff, different brands, graphite or steel etc.
I get faster head speed with a flexy shaft whipped vs same club in steel.

Other issue is... Imho one's idea of "flex" can be swayed by how tight you grip.
I used to use dry TournaGrip and grabbed it real tight, felt a lot of vibration &
now changed to tacky Tournatac and grip looser... frames feel different again.

 

[corners]

TW University tests pretty much every racquet for Vibration Frequency, which can also be understood as "dynamic stiffness." I think it's probably a more useful number than the flex measurement taken with an RDC machine because it takes into account the stiffness of the entire frame, not just at the throat, and also reflects the weight and weight distribution of the frame. (More flexible, heavier, more headlight and higher swingweight frames have lower vibration frequency.)

You can find the Vibration Frequency measurements here: http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/cgi-bin/vibfrequency.cgi

The "Explanation of Vibration Frequency" link at the top of the page, which opens a mini-window, is very informative.

Still, like any measurement, Vibration Frequency doesn't tell us everything, but I think it's a very useful number to include with those we usually use when evaluating the arm-friendliness of a frame. Probably worth noting that when manufacturers provide pros with blacked-out prototypes the sticker identifying the frame nearly always includes vibration frequency (along with static mass, balance point and swing weight).

 

[Shroud]

TW University tests pretty much every racquet for Vibration Frequency, which can also be understood as "dynamic stiffness." I think it's probably a more useful number than the flex measurement taken with an RDC machine because it takes into account the stiffness of the entire frame, not just at the throat, and also reflects the weight and weight distribution of the frame. (More flexible, heavier, more headlight and higher swingweight frames have lower vibration frequency.)

You can find the Vibration Frequency measurements here: http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/cgi-bin/vibfrequency.cgi

The "Explanation of Vibration Frequency" link at the top of the page, which opens a mini-window, is very informative.

Still, like any measurement, Vibration Frequency doesn't tell us everything, but I think it's a very useful number to include with those we usually use when evaluating the arm-friendliness of a frame. Probably worth noting that when manufacturers provide pros with blacked-out prototypes the sticker identifying the frame nearly always includes vibration frequency (along with static mass, balance point and swing weight).

Hey Corners. I found that tension had an effect on vibration especially when I framed shots. At 30lbs, I would get "tremors" on framed shots. I put some plastidip on the racket and it pretty much went away. At 20 lbs or so it just feels like a normal shot when I frame the racket.

I am assuming that the plastidip added some mass and changed the vibration frequency. How do I control this? Or is it just blind luck?

 

[HRB]

Hey Corners. I found that tension had an effect on vibration especially when I framed shots. At 30lbs, I would get "tremors" on framed shots. I put some plastidip on the racket and it pretty much went away. At 20 lbs or so it just feels like a normal shot when I frame the racket.

I am assuming that the plastidip added some mass and changed the vibration frequency. How do I control this? Or is it just blind luck?

20 lbs tension???? You mean Kg's? 20lbs. is insanely low.

 

[Fuji]

20 lbs tension???? You mean Kg's? 20lbs. is insanely low.

No, he means 20lbs haha. He strings pretty low.

-Fuji

 

[Shroud]

No, he means 20lbs haha. He strings pretty low.

-Fuji

Yep HRB Fuji is right. JUST finished a racket with kevlar 18g/ Tourbite 19g at .....15/15lbs!!

Its crazy on paper, a 16.35oz racket with 15lbs strings....:twisted:

 

[winstonlim8]

That is a LOT of echnical information and now I'm even more confused. LOL Never mind, I've just got a new racquet that seems to fit all my requirements (I'll only know for sure after I've actually tried it out when the rain stops) and strung it fairly low at 45 lbs.

I did notice one thing though. With modern strings, even soft multifilament ones strung at 40 lbs, they don't move much if at all after 3 months of playing. I wonder why.

 

[winstonlim8]

Just to update everyone here.

The rain finally let up for 90 minutes this afternoon and I was able to go hit a bit against the wall and try out a few serves on an empty court with my new Wilson BLX Pro Tour.

I don't have any pain in my elbow, upper arm, shoulder or upper chest muscles. I am still trying to get used to the difference in heft and swing speed when I hit my flattish groundstrokes but my forehand volleys popped like they'd never done before.

And I did something I've only managed to do ONCE on purpose since playing tennis from 1971-1978 and 2008-2013.

I hit a kick serve that landed on the sideline halfway between the net and the service line and then kicked over to the adjacent court FOUR TIMES IN A ROW!

Soo yeah, I'm feeling really pumped about my new racquet....now if only I'd been less of a cissy all those years back and started using a properly weighted racquet. *sigh*

 

[tmc5005]

Sounds like you are really on the right track, a heavier racquet with a head light balance and a flexible frame are the most important features of a arm friendly racquet, though I do not agree that the swingweight needs to be high.
My current top 10 arm friendly racquets are:

Babolat New Pure Storm-LTD GT (95)
DUNLOP Biomimetic Max 200G
HEAD-Youtek-IG-Prestige-MP
PACIFIC X Feel Pro 95
Prince EXO3 Rebel (95)
Prince EXO3 Tour (100) 16 x 18
Pro Kennex Kinetic KI5 315
Volkl Power Bridge-10 Mid (93)
Volkl Organix 10 325G
Wilson Prostaff Six.One BLX (95)

 

[winstonlim8]

Thanks. Yeah, I really do like my new racquet enough to consider buying a spare next month even though I'm still trying to get used to the heavier weight and difference in balance. This is the first time in my life I've chosen to use a head light racquet and the biggest improvement is in my serve, I think, because it means my racquet face is no longer closed on contact.

I'm still taking things slow with the heavier racquet as I didn't want to accidentally aggravate my TE. I only practised for about an hour against the wall and serving on an unoccupied court by myself.

I don't even know what swing weight really means, I'm afraid. Sorry but I come from the era where you either got used to your new racquet, tried to re-sell it or donated it to charity.

 

[HRB]

Yep HRB Fuji is right. JUST finished a racket with kevlar 18g/ Tourbite 19g at .....15/15lbs!!

Its crazy on paper, a 16.35oz racket with 15lbs strings....:twisted:

WOW! A few questions.....at that low of a tension do you get the "bite" and spin of poly or does it just slingshot the ball off the frame? Does it last longer before going dead? Finally is it something that simply works with your insanely heavy stick, but wouldn't fly on a "modest" 12.5oz i.prestige mp?

 

[winstonlim8]

Just to update a bit about my new Wilson BLX PRO TOUR.

I am having a hard time getting used to playing with a head light racquet. Even or especially with the heavier overall weight (11.6 oz strung).

My timing is off so badly when I actually play (as opposed to practising against the wall to get used to the differences) that I can't get many balls to stay in the court.

The good thing is that I'm playing without pain in the elbow, shoulder and upper back and chest. So, since I'm not going back to head heavy racquets, I think -

1.I'm going to add just a little bit of weight to the head so that the difference is not so great - I've had to add a second undergrip (since I couldn't get anything but a 4 1/4 grip). I put 1.8g at 10 - 2 o'clock and I'm adding 1g at 8 - 4 o'clock. I checked the balance and it's now 29.5cm from the butt.

2.I am going to go back and learn how to do things better, like -
a.keep my eye on the ball longer as I focus on swinging more smoothly with the heavier racquet.
b.develop proper slice and topspin serves (I was hitting more flattish with less spin before).
c.develop better footwork as I work on hitting through the ball better (I was arming the ball on everything hit on my right side and my topspin backhands - but never my skidder slice, funnily enough).

I can think of more things but for now, my goals are simply -
(i).take this as an opportunity to correct bad habits
(ii).get used to the difference in how my racquet feels
(iii).develop essential skills I've neglected

 

[LeeD]

I'd suggest, play with that stick dead stock for 15 sessions, THEN consider any changes you might need.
You need at least 10 hitting sessions to dial in a racket with different specs than your previous racket. Then a few more to try different shots.
Lots of great players play with stock rackets.

 

[winstonlim8]

Thanks, LeeD.

You're right, of course. My sister did say it took her two weeks of 5-days a week 2-3 hour sessions to get used to her racquet. I'm just being my usual OCD self because the racquet feels so different when I swing it in actual play.

Still, I feel that it's a good reason to go back and work on those things which should lead to less stress-free play for me. I now realise that I've been arming the ball ever since I came back to play in 2008 with lighter head heavy racquets. That's one reason for all the aches and pains I've developed.