Racquet head position in the ATP style forehand takeback?

T

torpantennis

Legend
I've been learning the ATP style forehand recently. I've developed my version of the ATP takeback where I keep the elbow high at shoulder level up until the last instance before the forward swing starts, equal to the standard ATP takeback. My hand is in front of the shoulder line, BUT I keep the racquet face parallel to the ground, with the tip of the racquet pointing something like 45 degrees to the LEFT compared to the frontal direction of my upper body. This means that the tip of the racquet is close to the chest before the forward swing starts, with the elbow at the same height as the racquet and in line with the shoulders.

I see Federer here with the tip of the racquet pointing up before the forward swing.

http://youtu.be/RMqQ2ys71bw?t=3m9s

My version causes stronger stretch to the shoulder and the chest muscles, which gives a lot of easy power. With the tip of the racquet pointing up I cannot feel the stretch in the shoulder. Any tips how to get the shoulder stretch with the proper takeback? Or should I just stick with my own takeback, any reasons not to? Has any pro used this kind of a takeback?
 
Are you talking about a Pete Sampras style prep. Pete leads back with the elbow very high and the racket face about equal in height to the elbow and shoulder. He also had the face somewhat pointing to the ground. Look at the link below and scroll down until you see a stop sequence of photos on a Sampras FH. The 2nd photo from the right is the Sampras prep.

There is nothing wrong with this prep but I like the Federer or Nadal prep more. Fed/Nadal (and Djoko and others) keep the racket head above the hands and keep the elbow lower than Pete. I think Fed/Nadal style is more common and more simple. But, it worked for Pete and keeping the elbow up and leading back with the elbow has 2 advantages: 1. it keeps the take back compact as you cannot lay the racket head back, and 2. it accentuates closing the racket face as it is almost pointed at the ground during the prep phase.

Even Fed/Nadal style leads back with the elbow. They just done lift it as high and they keep the racket head pointing forward toward the net.

http://www.optimumtennis.net/reverse-forehand-followthrough.htm

http://www.optimumtennis.net/images/reverse-forehand-sampras.jpg
 
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That Sampras takeback is close to the takeback that I use. But I don't use reverse followthrough, rather the standard WW. Check this Murray video:

http://youtu.be/mZaez8jgAh8?t=11s

At 13s, when the racquet is at shoulder level, that's close to where I start the hip rotation (I have a bit more shoulder rotation). I love hitting shoulder high balls this way. Any reason why I shouldn't? Is this kind of a technique injury prone?
 
This type of take back is fine in my opinion. It helps keep the stroke compact and it does not lead to injury. Be sure to use legs and core rotation to drive the power and you are good to go. You may want other opinions as I am not a coach.

Leading back with elbow and closing the face has been taught by many coaches since at least the 70s. Most pros use some deviation of this technique.
 
where exactly is the racquet head when your arm first begins to move forward? Is it behind the hand or in front of it?
 
KillerServe said:
where exactly is the racquet head when your arm first begins to move forward? Is it behind the hand or in front of it?
Click to expand...

Behind. Just before hip rotation starts I actually slightly rotate the elbow (and shoulders) more so that maximum range of motion is received. Then I let the elbow "rest" in this ROM position, totally relax the arm and the wrist and violently rotate the hips. This causes the racquet to flip behind, wrist extends and the forearm goes into supination. After the hips have fully rotated I feel a stretch in the shoulder, and just drive through the stroke with the shoulder muscles. The violent stretch to the shoulder here causes concerns. Could this be injury prone for shoulder?

However, this seems so natural now, too bad nobody has ever coached me this way. The standard way with loopy and long takeback feels so difficult now. :o
 
You're doing something wrong. You shouldn't feel a violent stretch in the shoulder.

Where is your elbow exactly relative to your body at the end of takeback just before rotation and forward movement?
And what grip do you have?
And what degree is your elbow extended at the end of takeback?
 
Maybe I just overreact a bit on the shoulder. Testing with shadow swings, my elbow is a bit behind the line of the shoulders, at the same height, before hip rotation. BUT when I rotate the hips, the elbow tends to drop a bit and go closer to the body. Maybe this is something I shouldn't have?

The grip is semi-western. The elbow is at 90deg angle at takeback, but then straightens a bit.

It seems that the stretch in the shoulder is due to a last second external shoulder rotation that the elbow drop and the racquet lagging causes. Then I fight against it by muscling an internal shoulder rotation, which moves the racquet forward.
 
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So when you rotate your torso does the elbow move exactly at that time too along with the torso or is there a lag in the elbow and it stays behind for a little bit and then gets dragged forward?
 
Just before the shoulders start rotating, I move the elbow so far back that it's in the end of ROM. Then when the shoulders start rotating (hips have already rotated) forward, the elbow follows at that instant.Forearm and racquet still lag. Shadowswinging, it seems that the elbow tends to come forward from below the level where the racquet is (and elbow was). The mass of the lagging racquet then causes the aforementioned stretching (external rotation).

BTW, it feels that the problem is gone if I lag the forearm so much that the elbow fully extends, and then push the racquet forward. Problem just is, that then I have to move forward more with the body in order to straighten the arm. Any other way around this?
 
Just shoot a video. All your typing while descriptive can actually be nothing like you are hitting the ball. That's why you cant hire a coach via email lessons and typed words. What you think your doing is often no where near to what actually happens. Shoot a video. Post it.
 
Topspin Shot said:
Behind. It's called the lag or pointing the buttcap to the ball.
Click to expand...

Yeah but that lag only happens after you are into the forward motion a bit. Immediately upon going forward it need not be. See what happens with Federer, as he start moving forward, the racquet is not immediately lagged, it is in the transition point going from a forward head to the lagged position, i.e. the 'flip'. If the OP does not have the racquet back the way Fed or Nadal do on the take back, then his 'flip' will take much longer, in which case the lag takes a lot longer to manifest.
 
Cheetah said:
You're doing something wrong. You shouldn't feel a violent stretch in the shoulder.

Where is your elbow exactly relative to your body at the end of takeback just before rotation and forward movement?
And what grip do you have?
And what degree is your elbow extended at the end of takeback?
Click to expand...

But why shouldn't you feel a stretch in the shoulder? If there is a true kinetic chain, the arm should lag a bit behind the torso too, no? The shoulder is a joint after all.
 
KillerServe said:
Yeah but that lag only happens after you are into the forward motion a bit. Immediately upon going forward it need not be. See what happens with Federer, as he start moving forward, the racquet is not immediately lagged, it is in the transition point going from a forward head to the lagged position, i.e. the 'flip'. If the OP does not have the racquet back the way Fed or Nadal do on the take back, then his 'flip' will take much longer, in which case the lag takes a lot longer to manifest.
Click to expand...

I think that's exactly my issue. As my racquet lag happens later after the start of forward swing than with Federer/Nadal takeback, the arm will have higher speed during the racquet flip, hence stretching the shoulder much harder?

Because of the later racquet flip, my takeback also requires more forward movement, which explains why I've enjoyed hitting the stroke on the front foot leaning forward, rather than on the back foot. I think this takeback is good for approach shots, when you have time to setup and lean forward? On basic rally balls the standard takeback with the tip of the racquet pointing up should be better as reaching the racquet flip doesn't require as long a swing?
 
KillerServe said:
But why shouldn't you feel a stretch in the shoulder? If there is a true kinetic chain, the arm should lag a bit behind the torso too, no? The shoulder is a joint after all.
Click to expand...

you should feel a stretch at the shoulder (at the inside where the arm meets the chest) but it doesn't have to be that violent.

as the hips rotate the arm externally rotates at the shoulder joint and then internally rotate as the hand comes forward.
 
Spanish thread

dominikk1985 said:
you should feel a stretch at the shoulder (at the inside where the arm meets the chest) but it doesn't have to be that violent.

as the hips rotate the arm externally rotates at the shoulder joint and then internally rotate as the hand comes forward.
Click to expand...

I responded to your posts in the Spanish thread
 
It's so difficult to understand via your descriptions. Do you watch Nadal for Federer youtube clips? What are the differences between your strokes and theirs?

Can you post one or two of THEIR photos and point out what you do differently?
 
I'm guessing you could be 'disconnected'.

If the elbow doesn't stay pretty much along the side of the body and it and the racquet lag begins after the swing from being too far back or improper form then you are 'disconnected' so to speak and that can lead to bad stuff including injury.

If you look at pros who have a long takeback swing they actually move their hand and racquet forward 'manually' a little bit to get it inline with the side of the body first before they start rotating so that they are 'connected'. Look at djokovic

Hard to speculate though w/o a video of your swing.

The racquet lag is kind of an illusion. When done right it's not just laying there waiting to be dragged forward from muscle tension. The hand is moving forward at the same time as the shoulder rotation but because of the setup with head above above hand and loose wrist etc etc the racquet flips back and down when the hand moves forward so the head of the racquet appears to lag but actually the handle is moving forward.
 
Do you mean youre setting up like this? that's dizzlmcwizzl, for some reason reminded me of him when I read your description.
e02v82.jpg
 
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