Radical Team Building

OnTheLine

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Just curious what others think about this:

Our 40+ Mixed league is played as a weekend team tournament. Friday - Sunday 3 matches each day for each team. Winners of each level advance to sectionals.

One of the captains is a little overboard. Captains both 8.0 and 9.0 teams.

She is recruiting players not just from out of the district, but out of the state and region.

She is flying in players from Florida, California, Georgia and Texas. (and paying for the flights!) Putting the players up in her house or hotels.

Her team will be about 10 players ... only 2 of whom are actually locals.

Aside from the fact that she is clearly desperate to win the districts and get to sectionals (where she will again fly these players in!), I am kind of surprised that I cannot find a rule against this.

Thoughts?
 
Uncoil said:
That is ridiculous. Even if she can afford to fly players in for matches what is her motivation for doing so? Just to win?
Click to expand...

Yup.

I should add she is doing this for both an 8.0 and a 9.0 team... so figure about 12-16 players being flown in between the 2 teams.
 
Holy cuss word this is amazing, I thought I saw the most extreme in Texas when a buddy of mine who is a very strong 4.5 sometimes 5.0 bump up and teaches on the weekends, a combo captain paid for his trip and boarding to Austin for state finals AND paid him the money he would have made teaching and his league fees.
 
OnTheLine said:
Just curious what others think about this:

Our 40+ Mixed league is played as a weekend team tournament. Friday - Sunday 3 matches each day for each team. Winners of each level advance to sectionals.

One of the captains is a little overboard. Captains both 8.0 and 9.0 teams.

She is recruiting players not just from out of the district, but out of the state and region.

She is flying in players from Florida, California, Georgia and Texas. (and paying for the flights!) Putting the players up in her house or hotels.

Her team will be about 10 players ... only 2 of whom are actually locals.

Aside from the fact that she is clearly desperate to win the districts and get to sectionals (where she will again fly these players in!), I am kind of surprised that I cannot find a rule against this.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
For sectionals? For sectionals? That's just sad.
 
There is no National rule prohibiting this, but some sections/districts have instituted rules about the number of out of area players allowed on a team. Here is the text from the National regulations (bolding mine):

1.04E Player Eligibility.
1.04E(1) Domicile and Residency Requirements. Any individual who competes in the USTA
League must be domiciled within the boundaries of a USTA Sectional Association or participate
through a USTA Direct Member Club. Residents of foreign countries who meet membership and
age requirements may be invited by a USTA Section to participate in the USTA League Program
provided that all such matches are played within the Section. Sections may create residency
requirement rules to encourage and foster local league play.
 
Only losers complain about this kind of sand bagging. Any true tennis player wants to play against the best from around the nation. This is a great way to do that right in your local area. Far from being penalized, this should be encouraged.
 
OnTheLine said:
Just curious what others think about this:

Our 40+ Mixed league is played as a weekend team tournament. Friday - Sunday 3 matches each day for each team. Winners of each level advance to sectionals.

One of the captains is a little overboard. Captains both 8.0 and 9.0 teams.

She is recruiting players not just from out of the district, but out of the state and region.

She is flying in players from Florida, California, Georgia and Texas. (and paying for the flights!) Putting the players up in her house or hotels.

Her team will be about 10 players ... only 2 of whom are actually locals.

Aside from the fact that she is clearly desperate to win the districts and get to sectionals (where she will again fly these players in!), I am kind of surprised that I cannot find a rule against this.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

When I read the title, I thought it was going to be about your team doing a group retreat with trust exercises, truth-telling sessions, burning of incense, and casting out of negative thoughts.
 
I agree with post #9. Local here goes from south of San Jose, Ca up to Napa, Ca or Santa Rosa and as far East as Stockton, Ca. Most players are on teams within a 10-20 mi radius just because of traffic issues. You should check with the League Coordinator to see what is considered local or if there is no restriction.
 
OnTheLine said:
Just curious what others think about this:

Our 40+ Mixed league is played as a weekend team tournament. Friday - Sunday 3 matches each day for each team. Winners of each level advance to sectionals.

One of the captains is a little overboard. Captains both 8.0 and 9.0 teams.

She is recruiting players not just from out of the district, but out of the state and region.

She is flying in players from Florida, California, Georgia and Texas. (and paying for the flights!) Putting the players up in her house or hotels.

Her team will be about 10 players ... only 2 of whom are actually locals.

Aside from the fact that she is clearly desperate to win the districts and get to sectionals (where she will again fly these players in!), I am kind of surprised that I cannot find a rule against this.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
www.merriam-webster.com

Definition of SHAMATEURISM

the practice of treating certain athletes as amateurs so that they will be eligible for amateur competition while subsidizing them with illegal payments or with excessive expense money… See the full definition
www.merriam-webster.com www.merriam-webster.com
 
Our section has rules about having to play in x number of league matches to be eligible. Did they fly in for their league matches too?

Some people need to get a life. How could one feel like this is some sort of accomplishment? This is accomplishing nothing and wasting so much money and resources on something that could actually be useful.
 
OnTheLine said:
One of the captains is a little overboard. Captains both 8.0 and 9.0 teams.

She is recruiting players not just from out of the district, but out of the state and region.

She is flying in players from Florida, California, Georgia and Texas. (and paying for the flights!) Putting the players up in her house or hotels.
Click to expand...

Gives you a chance to play spoilers, and cause her to waste thousands of dollars! Will also give you a chance to face Nationals-level competition in your local league...she's bringing Nationals to you, ha.
 
dak95_00 said:
Our section has rules about having to play in x number of league matches to be eligible. Did they fly in for their league matches too?

Some people need to get a life. How could one feel like this is some sort of accomplishment? This is accomplishing nothing and wasting so much money and resources on something that could actually be useful.
Click to expand...

Yes, except this entire league is run as a weekend tournament ... so the league and the district playoff all rolled into 3 days.

On the second point ... yeah, no idea.
 
I guess I'm most shocked at the level of tennis mercenary-ism there is out there. I know that there's sandbagging that happens but the fact that people are willing to hire themselves out to this degree is shocking.
 
I'm moving to Texas but I'm still going to join teams in LA and San Diego since I'll use it as an excuse to see my tennis friends /shrug . Not the same idea, but there can be legitimate reasons to have someone from another section playing.
 
Gemini said:
I guess I'm most shocked at the level of tennis mercenary-ism there is out there. I know that there's sandbagging that happens but the fact that people are willing to hire themselves out to this degree is shocking.
Click to expand...

I don't know... if someone offered you a free trip to Vegas and maybe another one to Arizona later just to play some tennis, wouldn't you consider it? :unsure:

Back in a past life as a captain when I was obsessed with making it to Nationals, I'll admit that I paid the league and facility fees for some of the players I recruited for my super teams. I also paid for the gas money and hotel to go to Sectionals for a player of mine that was having a hard time financially.

I never advertised this, I just did it behind the scenes for a handful of people. I couldn't really justify or afford more than that... but I did entertain fantasies of winning the lottery and hiring a team of ex-D1 or tour pro commandos to win a national title. Ironically, none of the super teams I captained ever advanced out of Sectionals, but we came really close a couple times.

When I finally did make it to Nationals, it was as a player on two teams that were captained by someone else. Now that I've been there a couple times, and even been on a team that made it to the final, I realize that Nationals is not that big of a deal. Getting there was like climbing Mount Everest in my mind, but the tournament itself is no different than what you see at Sectionals. It's run by the USTA after all, with all of the dysfunction that you'd expect. But, we did have a good time on both Nationals trips. The team that made it to the final was a group of overachievers and we got really lucky with our draw. Lots of fun memories, on and off the court. But I'm not sure it would be as great with a group of mercenary players I didn't know very well, especially if they were from all over the place. The little plastic trophy isn't worth it.
 
Jack the Hack said:
I don't know... if someone offered you a free trip to Vegas and maybe another one to Arizona later just to play some tennis, wouldn't you consider it? :unsure:
Click to expand...

Consider it...yes (half-heartedly). Actually do it....no if I know the exact machinations. If there's a full disclosure that I'm being brought in as a ringer, I'll refuse to participate. If I'm told otherwise and find out that I've been lied to, I'll play (begrudgingly and not with a lot of commitment) but it'll be a one time happening.
 
Gemini said:
Consider it...yes (half-heartedly). Actually do it....no if I know the exact machinations. If there's a full disclosure that I'm being brought in as a ringer, I'll refuse to participate. If I'm told otherwise and find out that I've been lied to, I'll play (begrudgingly and not with a lot of commitment) but it'll be a one time happening.
Click to expand...

Fortune 500 Company: Hi Gemini, we've seen your resume on LinkedIn and the presentation you did at the SuperWorker conference. You have the skills that we are looking for to be a significant contributor to our new venture where we are trying to take market share from our Fortune 500 competitors. If you join us, we will pay you a large salary, stock options, bonuses, and we will pay for your relocation to our corporate headquarters.

Bridget, Crazy USTA Captain: Hi Gemini, I've seen that you played for Big Division 1 school, once had a world ranking of #179, and are undefeated playing as a 5.0 in USTA League for the past 5 years. I'm trying to assemble a 9.0 team in my hometown of Las Vegas that can win the USTA national mixed doubles title. You will be paired with Susanna, from Atlanta, who played the #1 spot for Florida State in the early 90's and somehow now has a 4.0C rating. Our Section has no residency requirements for team members and the local and Sectional tournament is played over one weekend next month. I will pay for your flights, meals, local transportation, and housing here in Las Vegas if you decide to play for our team.

In both scenarios, you are being asked to capitalize on your skills for a group of strangers in exchange for effort and remuneration. Does it matter that one is for a corporation and the other is for tennis? Is your answer really this?

"I will half-heartedly consider your offers, but if you are wanting me to actually use the skills that I'm being recruited for to attain a goal, I refuse to participate. And if I do decide to show up and you provide monetary compensation for my participation, I will only put in a begrudging effort with no commitment." :)

In my opinion, the issue here isn't really the players that agree to the compensation to come play in Las Vegas. It's a great offer! Why not take a free trip to Sin City to play tennis and have some fun trying to win a title for this lady?

The issue is really that this captain is so desperate to win that she is willing to shell out a large amount of money to make it happen. And maybe it's nothing to her because she's really wealthy. Several pro sports club owners have spent big money on their basketball, baseball, soccer, or football rosters to assemble the top players for a run at a title. It doesn't always work and it's a silly way to spend money, especially at the recreational level. As I've said, the little plastic trophy isn't worth it. However, if I was on the player side of this equation, I don't really see the problem if it's within the rules.

(Personally, I've played tennis on USTA teams all over the place. One year, I qualified for Sectionals on teams from three different districts. I don't remember ever being compensated, I just have a lot of friends who invited me onto their teams and I was happy to have the opportunity to play a lot, even if I had to travel quite a bit to do so.)
 
OnTheLine said:
Aside from the fact that she is clearly desperate to win the districts and get to sectionals (where she will again fly these players in!), I am kind of surprised that I cannot find a rule against this.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Despite what I've written above, I can totally see why you and other local players would be chapped by this captain's move. Aside from it being over-the-top, it's not really fair for local players. But I don't blame the players that are taking up the offer. Are all of these people that are coming into Vegas friends of hers, or are they truly just mercenaries that she recruited somehow? It's a whole new level of crazy if she is mining USTA results from different sections and tracking down their contact data just to assemble a group of highly rated strangers.

In my section (PNW), we have rules that limit the number of players from outside of the local district that can be on a roster. And if you qualify for sectionals on two or more teams at the same time, you have to pick only one to play for at sectionals.

Even though your scenario is unusual, I highly suspect that your local league will be changing the rules to prevent this situation again in the future. Unless of course, the league likes capitalizing on the touristy nature of Vegas and doesn't mind encouraging players coming in from the outside to spend their $$$.
 
I don't know Jack. I think there is a giant chasm of difference between competing to be the top of the sports or corporate world and competing to be the best at mediocre tennis. As such the level of cut throat behavior is unwarranted and unsportsmanlike.

Unless you think Lance Armstrong is an American hero. After all, he just did what everyone else was doing at a higher level. This captain is just taking sandbagging to the next level by paying sandbaggers to play for her team.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
This captain is just taking sandbagging to the next level by paying sandbaggers to play for her team.
Click to expand...
I don't think @OnTheLine claimed the team was filled with sandbaggers, just that players were recruited from out of town. That isn't to say the recruited players aren't sandbaggers, just want to make it clear that sandbagging to get an artificially low rating, and captains recruiting the best players at a given level, are two separate things that may sometimes go hand-in-hand, but don't always do so.
 
Dartagnan64 said:
I don't know Jack. I think there is a giant chasm of difference between competing to be the top of the sports or corporate world and competing to be the best at mediocre tennis. As such the level of cut throat behavior is unwarranted and unsportsmanlike.

Unless you think Lance Armstrong is an American hero. After all, he just did what everyone else was doing at a higher level. This captain is just taking sandbagging to the next level by paying sandbaggers to play for her team.
Click to expand...

First off, no, I don't believe Armstrong is a hero. He cheated his sport and broke the rules. In contrast, Wealthy Bridget/Crazy Captain is not breaking any rules as far as we can tell with the minimal amount of information posted here. I was speculating that she was trying to poach the best computer rated players from around the country, but I don't know if that is the case. As @schmke wrote, there is no claim of sandbagging from @OnTheLine yet. All these traveling players could just be her friends from a past life.

I also agree with you that there is a giant difference between professional sports and corporate world verses amateur recreational tennis. However, as the old saying goes, whatever is worth doing is worth doing well. At my best, I was a mediocre 5.0 for a few seasons and have spent most of my adult life as a 4.5. That's not bad, but compared to professional standards of tennis, I totally suck (which is why I call myself Jack The Hack). Never-the-less, Iike many players here on TT, I've invested tons of time and money trying to maximize my game and win more matches. Competition is what drives me in this sport, even if it's just at the hobby level. When I was a captain, I was willing to do anything within the rules to put together winning teams. That said, I abhor the ratings cheaters and used to fret about it all the time, always trying to ensure that my guys were blameless. After over 20 trips to Sectionals and a couple Nationals runs, it was a lot of fun... but I now realize that it was probably not worth all the effort and anxiety. However, sometimes others have to find that out for themselves.
 
schmke said:
I don't think @OnTheLine claimed the team was filled with sandbaggers, just that players were recruited from out of town. That isn't to say the recruited players aren't sandbaggers, just want to make it clear that sandbagging to get an artificially low rating, and captains recruiting the best players at a given level, are two separate things that may sometimes go hand-in-hand, but don't always do so.
Click to expand...

Nope. Don't know these people/players. I don't even have a pan in the fire on this one. I definitely don't play 9.0 and probably won't play 8.0 as I will be playing 7.0 ... and on that weekend next to impossible to play in two levels. Already hard enough to play 2-3 matches per day for 3 days straight.
 
Tennis tournaments for recreational players are meant to be local events. That is why local businesses are approached to sponsor this or that. It is supposed to give opportunities to local players to enrich their lives, and some of them take lessons from local coaches, generating business for them.
 
sureshs said:
Tennis tournaments for recreational players are meant to be local events. That is why local businesses are approached to sponsor this or that. It is supposed to give opportunities to local players to enrich their lives, and some of them take lessons from local coaches, generating business for them.
Click to expand...

So, players from other cities or states are not allowed to play in local tennis tournaments? And USTA League is the same as a tennis tournament?

Let's think this supposition through and see if it has any application to reality.

How many tournaments are held each year in the average US city? I'm lucky to live in a town that has somewhere between 8 and 12 a year. However, the next closest city to the south of here has 2 tournaments a year. I guess those folks are screwed because they can only play twice. Certainly, we can't allow them to drive up and play in our tournaments, right? Having to face competition that isn't local wouldn't be enriching for them. And no out-of-town players would dare spend money at local businesses while visiting... :sneaky:
 
Jack the Hack said:
So, players from other cities or states are not allowed to play in local tennis tournaments? And USTA League is the same as a tennis tournament?

Let's think this supposition through and see if it has any application to reality.

How many tournaments are held each year in the average US city? I'm lucky to live in a town that has somewhere between 8 and 12 a year. However, the next closest city to the south of here has 2 tournaments a year. I guess those folks are screwed because they can only play twice. Certainly, we can't allow them to drive up and play in our tournaments, right? Having to face competition that isn't local wouldn't be enriching for them. And no out-of-town players would dare spend money at local businesses while visiting... :sneaky:
Click to expand...

We are talking about a captain spending her own money to bribe players from other states. Even college tennis coaches who vie to get foreign students on their roster don't spend their own money.

The second point is that Vegas is a tennis hotbed, not the average US city. It has many tournaments and a very active tennis scene, in which Agassi is also involved.
 
sureshs said:
We are talking about a captain spending her own money to bribe players from other states. Even college tennis coaches who vie to get foreign students on their roster don't spend their own money.

The second point is that Vegas is a tennis hotbed, not the average US city. It has many tournaments and a very active tennis scene, in which Agassi is also involved.
Click to expand...

I know about Vegas. I've played tennis tournaments there several times. But I guess I shouldn't have though because I wasn't a local. How unethical of me.

BTW, you can't tell Bridget the Crazy Captain how to spend her money. This is 'Merica!

For example, I think it's really stupid to buy one of these...

maxresdefault.jpg


But, I couldn't stop my neighbor from blowing a good chunk of his hard earned money on one. If Bridget wants to spend her cash on a yellow Humvee or flying in a bunch of her new friends to play a tennis tournament, it might be a bad investment, but unless she broke a rule, she's entitled to be as wasteful as she wants. I don't agree with her choice, but maybe all these players are just old acquaintances or it's been her lifelong dream to have a winning USTA team. We don't really know the details, do we?
 
Jack the Hack said:
I know about Vegas. I've played tennis tournaments there several times. But I guess I shouldn't have though because I wasn't a local. How unethical of me.

BTW, you can't tell Bridget the Crazy Captain how to spend her money. This is 'Merica!

For example, I think it's really stupid to buy one of these...

maxresdefault.jpg


But, I couldn't stop my neighbor from blowing a good chunk of his hard earned money on one. If Bridget wants to spend her cash on a yellow Humvee or flying in a bunch of her new friends to play a tennis tournament, it might be a bad investment, but unless she broke a rule, she's entitled to be as wasteful as she wants. I don't agree with her choice, but maybe all these players are just old acquaintances or it's been her lifelong dream to have a winning USTA team. We don't really know the details, do we?
Click to expand...

What's wrong with buying Hot Wheels cars?
 
Jack the Hack said:
Fortune 500 Company: Hi Gemini, we've seen your resume on LinkedIn and the presentation you did at the SuperWorker conference. You have the skills that we are looking for to be a significant contributor to our new venture where we are trying to take market share from our Fortune 500 competitors. If you join us, we will pay you a large salary, stock options, bonuses, and we will pay for your relocation to our corporate headquarters.

Bridget, Crazy USTA Captain: Hi Gemini, I've seen that you played for Big Division 1 school, once had a world ranking of #179, and are undefeated playing as a 5.0 in USTA League for the past 5 years. I'm trying to assemble a 9.0 team in my hometown of Las Vegas that can win the USTA national mixed doubles title. You will be paired with Susanna, from Atlanta, who played the #1 spot for Florida State in the early 90's and somehow now has a 4.0C rating. Our Section has no residency requirements for team members and the local and Sectional tournament is played over one weekend next month. I will pay for your flights, meals, local transportation, and housing here in Las Vegas if you decide to play for our team.

In both scenarios, you are being asked to capitalize on your skills for a group of strangers in exchange for effort and remuneration. Does it matter that one is for a corporation and the other is for tennis? Is your answer really this?
Click to expand...

I'm going to cherry pick just the first half of your post since that's all that really counts in the context of the original post...and then I'm going to leave it there. These two scenarios aren't even equivalent. Yes. It matters.

What your scenarios fail to do is take into account the underlying reasons for why someone would even be open to either opportunity. A job/employment is something most of us MUST do. The other is merely a diversion.

While a person may think they'll enjoy working for a big company, they're not doing it for recreation. It's a long term, sustainment play that could pave the road to more lucrative life sustaining job opportunities.

Playing tennis in the context of this post is purely recreational. Loaning myself out to the highest bidder isn't worth it.

So..yes..it matters.
 
Last edited:
OnTheLine said:
Just curious what others think about this:

Our 40+ Mixed league is played as a weekend team tournament. Friday - Sunday 3 matches each day for each team. Winners of each level advance to sectionals.

One of the captains is a little overboard. Captains both 8.0 and 9.0 teams.

She is recruiting players not just from out of the district, but out of the state and region.

She is flying in players from Florida, California, Georgia and Texas. (and paying for the flights!) Putting the players up in her house or hotels.

Her team will be about 10 players ... only 2 of whom are actually locals.

Aside from the fact that she is clearly desperate to win the districts and get to sectionals (where she will again fly these players in!), I am kind of surprised that I cannot find a rule against this.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

If they lose will she still put them at her house or in a hotel? I think I would want to make sure.
 
Jack the Hack said:
I know about Vegas. I've played tennis tournaments there several times. But I guess I shouldn't have though because I wasn't a local. How unethical of me.

BTW, you can't tell Bridget the Crazy Captain how to spend her money. This is 'Merica!

For example, I think it's really stupid to buy one of these...

maxresdefault.jpg


But, I couldn't stop my neighbor from blowing a good chunk of his hard earned money on one. If Bridget wants to spend her cash on a yellow Humvee or flying in a bunch of her new friends to play a tennis tournament, it might be a bad investment, but unless she broke a rule, she's entitled to be as wasteful as she wants. I don't agree with her choice, but maybe all these players are just old acquaintances or it's been her lifelong dream to have a winning USTA team. We don't really know the details, do we?
Click to expand...

It is obviously not the legality that is being questioned, but the mental health of Captain Karen.
 
Is her husband OK with her putting up strange men in their home? If for nothing else other than Covid risk?

And if the guests are women, well, husband is in luck!
 
OnTheLine said:
Just curious what others think about this:

Our 40+ Mixed league is played as a weekend team tournament. Friday - Sunday 3 matches each day for each team. Winners of each level advance to sectionals.

One of the captains is a little overboard. Captains both 8.0 and 9.0 teams.

She is recruiting players not just from out of the district, but out of the state and region.

She is flying in players from Florida, California, Georgia and Texas. (and paying for the flights!) Putting the players up in her house or hotels.

Her team will be about 10 players ... only 2 of whom are actually locals.

Aside from the fact that she is clearly desperate to win the districts and get to sectionals (where she will again fly these players in!), I am kind of surprised that I cannot find a rule against this.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
That is some dedication.
 
sureshs said:
Tennis tournaments for recreational players are meant to be local events. That is why local businesses are approached to sponsor this or that. It is supposed to give opportunities to local players to enrich their lives, and some of them take lessons from local coaches, generating business for them.
Click to expand...

I mean, this woman bringing in players from other states doesn't stop anything you mentioned from happening?
 
OnTheLine said:
Just curious what others think about this:

Our 40+ Mixed league is played as a weekend team tournament. Friday - Sunday 3 matches each day for each team. Winners of each level advance to sectionals.

One of the captains is a little overboard. Captains both 8.0 and 9.0 teams.

She is recruiting players not just from out of the district, but out of the state and region.

She is flying in players from Florida, California, Georgia and Texas. (and paying for the flights!) Putting the players up in her house or hotels.

Her team will be about 10 players ... only 2 of whom are actually locals.

Aside from the fact that she is clearly desperate to win the districts and get to sectionals (where she will again fly these players in!), I am kind of surprised that I cannot find a rule against this.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

It's her money.

You say she's desperate to win. And you are upset enough to write about it. Like, you are that upset about amateur tennis??? Let's not judge. People want different things in life.
 
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