Rafa as the Clay GOAT ...

RaulRamirez

RaulRamirez

Legend
I've seen many posters -- often those who don't care for Rafa - say some variation of:
Well, Rafa is the "clay goat", but he's not the [overall] goat.

This always galls me, as:
A. No reasonable fan would dispute that Rafa is the best-ever on clay, so it's not conceding anything to say that. It also seems to be said/written in a way that doesn't give clay its proper due as a surface.
B. Being "clay goat" does not in any way preclude him from being the overall "goat". They're not mutually exclusive in any way.
It would almost be like saying, "Well, the U.S. has a larger population than Germany, but it doesn't have a larger population than Indonesia."
Makes no sense.
...
Having said this, if there is a mythical Open Era "goat", I'd still go with Novak, but being so dominant on clay in no way precludes Rafa.
 
Ofcourse not. But then his fans use the same clay stats for everything. You know the members here. Strong rules and other such miscreants. They claim he has the best opposition which doesn't seem to be from his clay resume. He played the other two greats on clay and won 95% of the clay slam matches.

But on grass

It's 3-1 Federer in Wimbledon and 2-1 Djokovic (Djokovic retired In only loss )

On hc

It's 3-3 for Djokovic and Nadal missed way too many matches on hc than Djokovic on clay and 3-1 Nadal vs Federer. Here we definitely can say Nadal owned Federer.

So if you see Nadal played 18 matches vs Djokovic in slams and played 10 which is 60% of those on clay

And then Nadal played 14 matches vs federer in slams and 6 are on rg it's actually much better for fedal than Rafole










As a nolefam, it bothered me a lot that Federer kept getting victories over Nole in tournaments that favored Federer more ( Shanghai Dubai Cincinnati) while Nole had to go to federer's fortress of Wimbledon to beat him during Nole's prime. And it was so soothing when I saw fed finally making it to Djokovic in AO 2016. Even before first ball was struck, I knew Federer was in for a beatdown today and Nole delivered. It just made so much sense.

It will make exactly as much sense if Nadal played Djokovic more. But despite both guys being only 11 months apart, they played only 8 matches outside clay slams. That's ridiculous and shows why nadal's resume is highly inflated.

We are not talking in vaccum. Nadal existed in same time as fedkovic. He was beating these guys in RG but was mostly no show especially vs Djokovic outside.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
Ofcourse not. But then his fans use the same clay stats for everything. You know the members here. Strong rules and other such miscreants. They claim he has the best opposition which doesn't seem to be from his clay resume. He played the other two greats on clay and won 95% of the clay slam matches.

But on grass

It's 3-1 Federer in Wimbledon and 2-1 Djokovic (Djokovic retired In only loss )

On hc

It's 3-3 for Djokovic and Nadal missed way too many matches on hc than Djokovic on clay and 3-1 Nadal vs Federer. Here we definitely can say Nadal owned Federer.

So if you see Nadal played 18 matches vs Djokovic in slams and played 10 which is 60% of those on clay

And then Nadal played 14 matches vs federer in slams and 6 are on rg it's actually much better for fedal than Rafole










As a nolefam, it bothered me a lot that Federer kept getting victories over Nole in tournaments that favored Federer more ( Shanghai Dubai Cincinnati) while Nole had to go to federer's fortress of Wimbledon to beat him during Nole's prime. And it was so soothing when I saw fed finally making it to Djokovic in AO 2016. Even before first ball was struck, I knew Federer was in for a beatdown today and Nole delivered. It just made so much sense.

It will make exactly as much sense if Nadal played Djokovic more. But despite both guys being only 11 months apart, they played only 8 matches outside clay slams. That's ridiculous and shows why nadal's resume is highly inflated.

We are not talking in vaccum. Nadal existed in same time as fedkovic. He was beating these guys in RG but was mostly no show especially vs Djokovic outside.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how this relates to this thread.
Bad arguments are bad arguments no matter who they are intended to support or detract from.
 
Azure said:
He’s got Agassi number of slams off-clay. That’s just mind-boggling numbers and that alone should stop the wagging tongues. He is once in a lifetime champion and one of the greatest to ever play the sport.
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True but Agassi was facing the likes of Pistol PETE while dealing with a back injury.
Nadal faced an old man and a guy who can't hit overheads.
 
RaulRamirez said:
I'm not sure how this relates to this thread.
Bad arguments are bad arguments no matter who they are intended to support or detract from.
Click to expand...
I don't understand how you see no issues. Nadal has won 14 of his 22 in RG. Was his competition the best? He is the best clay courter and second best of his era being Djokovic is few notches away.

While Nadal won 8 slams outside. Was his draw the best in them? In USO in his four wins he played less than 5 top 10 players if I am right.

And how about his H2H vs Djokovic.

10 matches at RG
2 on AO
3 on USO
3 on Wimby.

That is so deceptive. It's Djokovic's good fortune that he at least got 2 wins vs Nadal on rg or the H2H would be something like 12-5 or something.

What this proves is nadal's entire career is so heavily skewed on clay and his numbers are so massive that you have to take them with a grain of salt. Nothing wrong in saying he is the goat but only on clay.
 
RaulRamirez said:
I've seen many posters -- often those who don't care for Rafa - say some variation of:
Well, Rafa is the "clay goat", but he's not the [overall] goat.

This always galls me, as:
A. No reasonable fan would dispute that Rafa is the best-ever on clay, so it's not conceding anything to say that. It also seems to be said/written in a way that doesn't give clay its proper due as a surface.
B. Being "clay goat" does not in any way preclude him from being the overall "goat". They're not mutually exclusive in any way.
It would almost be like saying, "Well, the U.S. has a larger population than Germany, but it doesn't have a larger population than Indonesia."
Makes no sense.
...
Having said this, if there is a mythical Open Era "goat", I'd still go with Novak, but being so dominant on clay in no way precludes Rafa.
Click to expand...

Because there are 3 surfaces in tennis. 4 if you separate Indoors and outdoors hard courts.
Djokovic is the goat of both indoors and outdoors hard courts. So he is the HC goat, period... Hard courts are factually the most important surfaces today (9 out of 14 Slams/Masters).
Federer is still the grass goat but Djokovic is now close 2nd and 1 more Wimbledon will put him on the same level.
Nadal is the clay goat but Djokovic is now 3rd or 4th on this surface.

Nadal isn't even top-5 on grass and hard courts, that's the major difference. On indoors hard courts he isn't even top-30, lol. Djokovic is versatile and polyvalent. 1 Wimbledon title and he is going to be goat or co-goat on 3 of the 4 main surfaces.
Nadal will always be goat on clay but he will never ever ever come close to being goat on the other surfaces. That's not minimizing his achievements on hard courts and grass. He is still a great hard court and grass but still too far behind other players.
On the list of the players ranked #1, he is only 6th. Still behind Sampras, Lendl and Connors. Djokovic has now almost twice more weeks. Why doesn't he have more? Because he is not versatile enough... He was unable to get enough points on other surfaces and that's why Djokovic or Federer were often ahead of him...
 
Lauren_Girl' said:
Because there are 3 surfaces in tennis. 4 if you separate Indoors and outdoors hard courts.
Djokovic is the goat of both indoors and outdoors hard courts. So he is the HC goat, period... Hard courts are factually the most important surfaces today (9 out of 14 Slams/Masters).
Federer is still the grass goat but Djokovic is now close 2nd and 1 more Wimbledon will put him on the same level.
Nadal is the clay goat but Djokovic is now 3rd or 4th on this surface.

Nadal isn't even top-5 on grass and hard courts, that's the major difference. On indoors hard courts he isn't even top-30, lol. Djokovic is versatile and polyvalent. 1 Wimbledon title and he is going to be goat or co-goat on 3 of the 4 main surfaces.
Nadal will always be goat on clay but he will never ever ever come close to being goat on the other surfaces. That's not minimizing his achievements on hard courts and grass. He is still a great hard court and grass but still too far behind other players.
On the list of the players ranked #1, he is only 6th. Still behind Sampras, Lendl and Connors. Djokovic has now almost twice more weeks. Why doesn't he have more? Because he is not versatile enough... He was unable to get enough points on other surfaces and that's why Djokovic or Federer were often ahead of him...
Click to expand...
Only year he looked op to me was 2013. That year he went without a loss on hc till USOpen final.
 
Lauren_Girl' said:
Because there are 3 surfaces in tennis. 4 if you separate Indoors and outdoors hard courts.
Djokovic is the goat of both indoors and outdoors hard courts. So he is the HC goat, period... Hard courts are factually the most important surfaces today (9 out of 14 Slams/Masters).
Federer is still the grass goat but Djokovic is now close 2nd and 1 more Wimbledon will put him on the same level.
Nadal is the clay goat but Djokovic is now 3rd or 4th on this surface.

Nadal isn't even top-5 on grass and hard courts, that's the major difference. On indoors hard courts he isn't even top-30, lol. Djokovic is versatile and polyvalent. 1 Wimbledon title and he is going to be goat or co-goat on 3 of the 4 main surfaces.
Nadal will always be goat on clay but he will never ever ever come close to being goat on the other surfaces. That's not minimizing his achievements on hard courts and grass. He is still a great hard court and grass but still too far behind other players.
On the list of the players ranked #1, he is only 6th. Still behind Sampras, Lendl and Connors. Djokovic has now almost twice more weeks. Why doesn't he have more? Because he is not versatile enough... He was unable to get enough points on other surfaces and that's why Djokovic or Federer were often ahead of him...
Click to expand...
2-1 bu... wait nooo!
nooooooo-death.gif
 
Lauren_Girl' said:
Because there are 3 surfaces in tennis. 4 if you separate Indoors and outdoors hard courts.
Djokovic is the goat of both indoors and outdoors hard courts. So he is the HC goat, period... Hard courts are factually the most important surfaces today (9 out of 14 Slams/Masters).
Federer is still the grass goat but Djokovic is now close 2nd and 1 more Wimbledon will put him on the same level.
Nadal is the clay goat but Djokovic is now 3rd or 4th on this surface.

Nadal isn't even top-5 on grass and hard courts, that's the major difference. On indoors hard courts he isn't even top-30, lol. Djokovic is versatile and polyvalent. 1 Wimbledon title and he is going to be goat or co-goat on 3 of the 4 main surfaces.
Nadal will always be goat on clay but he will never ever ever come close to being goat on the other surfaces. That's not minimizing his achievements on hard courts and grass. He is still a great hard court and grass but still too far behind other players.
On the list of the players ranked #1, he is only 6th. Still behind Sampras, Lendl and Connors. Djokovic has now almost twice more weeks. Why doesn't he have more? Because he is not versatile enough... He was unable to get enough points on other surfaces and that's why Djokovic or Federer were often ahead of him...
Click to expand...
Bc he faced the best HC player of all time at his peak and the best grass court player of all time at his peak. He still beat them both on their best surfaces for multiple slams and has made at least 5 finals at every slam. Tone down your anger and damage control, you look ridiculous :D
 
To be very fair

Federer is ahead of Nadal in 3 slams and ATP finals
Djokovic is ahead of Nadal in 3 slams and ATP finals
And Sampras is ahead of Nadal in 2 slams and ATP finals


It's very easy to say every slam is valued same.

It is true, but for everyone else except Nadal. Him adding more to his clay resume just exposes his other numbers. I will not be politically correct here, Nadal has not won a set on hc vs Djokovic since 2013. But Djokovic was deported and Nadal won his second AO after fit Nole was removed.

Otherwise

Sampras would be ahead of Nadal in 3 slams and ATP finals
 
nachiket nolefam said:
To be very fair

Federer is ahead of Nadal in 3 slams and ATP finals
Djokovic is ahead of Nadal in 3 slams and ATP finals
And Sampras is ahead of Nadal in 2 slams and ATP finals


It's very easy to say every slam is valued same.

It is true, but for everyone else except Nadal. Him adding more to his clay resume just exposes his other numbers. I will not be politically correct here, Nadal has not won a set on hc vs Djokovic since 2013. But Djokovic was deported and Nadal won his second AO after fit Nole was removed.

Otherwise

Sampras would be ahead of Nadal in 2 slams and ATP finals
Click to expand...
Nadal equals Sampras at the FO alone lol, again.... ridiculous :D
 
To be very honest the tennis gods blessed us and gave Djokovic. It would have looked ridiculous having Nadal as slam leader when he had

209 weeks at number 1
64% slam wins on clay, a specialist surface and historically the most upset prone and having random winners
0 ATP titles

He would not have been the GOAT but he would have been the slam leader making the slam count a distorted metric.

It's actually good for tennis that a player who has dominated multiple surfaces and across the year has led the slams because

He has 409 weeks at number 1
7 ATP titles
14 slams outside his favorite tournament.
 
Dwell said:
2-1 bu... wait nooo!
nooooooo-death.gif
Click to expand...


He has less Grand Slams titles on hard courts than.... Djokovic, Federer, Sampras, Emerson, Tilden, Sears and Larned. Same numbers as Rosewall, Connors and Agassi. The list of Major titles on Hard courts gets even larger if we add the ATP Finals. He is still a solid top-8 on hard courts but he doesn't belong in the same category as Djokovic, Federer and Sampras.

Same on grass. There are currently 16 players with more than 2 Wimbledon titles. Nadal ain't even top-10 on grass. Solid top-8 if we only count the open era but still miles behind Federer, Djokovic, Sampras and Borg.

If we count indoors season as 1 separated surface, I don't think Nadal is even top-30 here. 1 indoor title in his career. 0 Paris, 0 ATP Finals. He can't win tournaments with a roof, that was shown over and over and over and over again... that's a giant hole.

Djokovic has 14 HC Slams, 7 ATP Finals and 7 Wimbledon. He is 1st or close 2nd everywhere except on clay. On clay he is arguably the 4th best player... 3rd in the open era. The big difference is he won every Major clay titles twice (or more). He beat Nadal everywhere multiple times, including in RG and Monaco, Nadal's 2 most successful tournaments. Same can't be said about Nadal, sadly. He never defeated (barring walkovers) Djokovic in his favorite tournaments like AO, Wimbledon, Miami and Paris.
 
The main question Nadal fans will ask is how much more he needs to win off clay to be considered their superior and it's kind of a ridiculous question. We see trends and not making stuff up.

Nadal has won 8 slams off clay as opposed to Federer 19 and Djokovic 21. Is he ever going to come even halfway to Djokovic? No. The difference is 13. Now let's see the trends.

Nadal slam wins off clay

2008 1
2009 1
2010 2
2011 0
2012 0
2013 1
2014 0
2015 0
2016 0
2017 1
2018 0
2019 1
2020 0
2021 0
2022 1*

Clearly his best days were past him post 2010 on this surface, be still won 4 but got heavily reduced to being only clay player post 2010. So he is not going to break any grounds now at age 37 and start winning majors on non clay surfaces. The gap is too much.

Yes there is exactly as much gap between Nadal and fed on non clay as there is between Djokovic and Nadal on clay and there is as much gap on non clay between Nadal and Djokovic as there is between Federer and Nadal on clay.

All it shows is these guys created just as big a gap between them and Nadal outside RG as he did on RG.

So Nadal is never going to bridge gap to them as they will never bridge to Nadal.

It's about dominating 1 surface vs dominating all but 1 surface.
 
MichaelNadal said:
I like the fact that the troops are still fighting this war every day bc they don't truly believe Novak is better :D
Click to expand...
Gaslighter

Everyone knows Djokovic is better, you, ttw, tennis commentators and even Chris evert.

We just want Nadal to be even below fed which he was till 2022.

Don't put words in our mouth.
 
MichaelNadal said:
Yet here you are with cheap grenades and a ball and chain trying to tear Nadal down and make cases 8-B he will never let you rest no matter what Novak acheives after AO22
Click to expand...

That's true. Because I chose to. Not because Djokovic needs any nadal tearing down.
Djokovic has absolute numbers. Its Federer we have to make case for.
 
MichaelNadal said:
You can make whatever case you need to be able to sleep lol, Nadal did what he needed last year. You can spin it all you want :D
Click to expand...
i can agree Nadal may be better than Federer or Federer may be better than nadal depending on the context
I don't need anything to be able to sleep. Its Nadal fans who became supporters of weak era this year after supporting in 2022. How can they sleep for the rest of their life? This is permanent brother.
 
nachiket nolefam said:
i can agree Nadal may be better than Federer or Federer may be better than nadal depending on the context
I don't need anything to be able to sleep. Its Nadal fans who became supporters of weak era this year after supporting in 2022. How can they sleep for the rest of their life? This is permanent brother.
Click to expand...
I know, the butthurt is etched in stone lol
 
nachiket nolefam said:
I don't understand how you see no issues. Nadal has won 14 of his 22 in RG. Was his competition the best? He is the best clay courter and second best of his era being Djokovic is few notches away.

While Nadal won 8 slams outside. Was his draw the best in them? In USO in his four wins he played less than 5 top 10 players if I am right.

And how about his H2H vs Djokovic.

10 matches at RG
2 on AO
3 on USO
3 on Wimby.

That is so deceptive. It's Djokovic's good fortune that he at least got 2 wins vs Nadal on rg or the H2H would be something like 12-5 or something.

What this proves is nadal's entire career is so heavily skewed on clay and his numbers are so massive that you have to take them with a grain of salt. Nothing wrong in saying he is the goat but only on clay.
Click to expand...
I think you're still missing the point(s) of this thread.
 
Lauren_Girl' said:
Because there are 3 surfaces in tennis. 4 if you separate Indoors and outdoors hard courts.
Djokovic is the goat of both indoors and outdoors hard courts. So he is the HC goat, period... Hard courts are factually the most important surfaces today (9 out of 14 Slams/Masters).
Federer is still the grass goat but Djokovic is now close 2nd and 1 more Wimbledon will put him on the same level.
Nadal is the clay goat but Djokovic is now 3rd or 4th on this surface.

Nadal isn't even top-5 on grass and hard courts, that's the major difference. On indoors hard courts he isn't even top-30, lol. Djokovic is versatile and polyvalent. 1 Wimbledon title and he is going to be goat or co-goat on 3 of the 4 main surfaces.
Nadal will always be goat on clay but he will never ever ever come close to being goat on the other surfaces. That's not minimizing his achievements on hard courts and grass. He is still a great hard court and grass but still too far behind other players.
On the list of the players ranked #1, he is only 6th. Still behind Sampras, Lendl and Connors. Djokovic has now almost twice more weeks. Why doesn't he have more? Because he is not versatile enough... He was unable to get enough points on other surfaces and that's why Djokovic or Federer were often ahead of him...
Click to expand...
On my OP, I even wrote that I consider Novak the mythical OE GOAT, as I have many times. This isn't a Rafa v Novak, or Rafa v Fed thread. It's about making good-faith, meaningful arguments.
 
Basically Nadal statpadding on clay does him no favor NOW. It did when he was a kid.

First slam - who cares where he wins as long as he has the slam
Second slam - wow he is able to defend here that's awesome
Third slam - ok we know the story here , this is his peak time and he is unbeatable here, good on other surfaces too
Fourth slam - this is probably putting him as all time best on clay, maybe Borg if he had not retired, nadal might be atg material
Fifth slam - Wow nadal has won wimbledon, most prestigious
Sixth slam - ATG a winner on all surfaces he is great
Seventh slam - RG again , its now almost clear he is clay goat
eigth slam - multiple wimbledon titles, he is probably ahead of connors and lendl already although he has no proven longetivity
ninth slam - wow a cgs he is among the very best , only sampras and federer ahead of him now in open era, borg might have more slams but nadal has time on his hands

basically everything goes downhill since 2011 for him. He was already among top 4 of open era as early as 2010. His slam records were good.

2 on grass 1 ao and 1 uso but he just had started to win on new surfaces, also record high 6 slams on clay. if he had gone the same way, he would proabbly have had 10 slams on clay and 10 off
what we saw though was years of him failing off clay, he won 3 non rg slams in next 11 years. that's 3 out of 33 slams. but he won 8 of the next 11 rg titles.


Nadal became a clay specialist with good enough game on clay.

since 2011 to now, only thing he has added is volume. it's stattpadding. We non nadal fans are dead tired of his slam count elevating just because of roland garros. And now he has gone past fed based on 1 surface. Not even the dominant surface in tennis.

He was already top 3/4 open era player and now after 13 years he is still the top 3/4 open era player.
He had as big a gap between himself and fed/sampras then off clay as he has to fed/djokovic on clay now.

To nadal fans its very epic every time he wins RG but for non nadal fans.
 
MichaelNadal said:
You can make whatever case you need to be able to sleep lol, Nadal did what he needed last year. You can spin it all you want :D
Click to expand...
why mike he needed it so much if rg dominance is most epic thing in the world, if you value so much that second australian raiden deportation title it means deep inside you think versatility is more precious thing than dominance at one tourney/rg which means you prove djoko is greater plus dividing ndal rg achievements by two by that, otoh if you dont value that second title much it means dominance is greater, should choose only one option here, kinda you cant have a cake and eat it too:D
 
Lauren_Girl' said:
He has less Grand Slams titles on hard courts than.... Djokovic, Federer, Sampras, Emerson, Tilden, Sears and Larned. Same numbers as Rosewall, Connors and Agassi. The list of Major titles on Hard courts gets even larger if we add the ATP Finals. He is still a solid top-8 on hard courts but he doesn't belong in the same category as Djokovic, Federer and Sampras.
Click to expand...
Where are you getting this information lol?! The 2-1 Open wasn’t even played on HC until 1978. All the guys I highlighted in your post don’t even have a single GS title on HC lol. Connors has 3 GS titles on HC (2-1 Open in 1978, 1982, 1983).

This is another PSA folks, tennis started before 2011. And why is HC even being lauded as the most important surface? The only reason it’s the most used surface is because it’s the cheapest surface to use. At the end of the day tennis is a business and businesses aim to make as much money as possible. There’s far less maintenance required to keep a HC functioning.
 
The Blond Blur said:
Where are you getting this information lol?! The 2-1 Open wasn’t even played on HC until 1978. All the guys I highlighted in your post don’t even have a single GS title on HC lol. Connors has 3 GS titles on HC (2-1 Open in 1978, 1982, 1983).

This is another PSA folks, tennis started before 2011. And why is HC even being lauded as the most important surface? The only reason it’s the most used surface is because it’s the cheapest surface to use. At the end of the day tennis is a business and businesses aim to make as much money as possible. There’s far less maintenance required to keep a HC functioning.
Click to expand...
LMAO
 
alexio said:
why mike he needed it so much if rg dominance is most epic thing in the world, if you value so much that second australian raiden deportation title it means deep inside you think versatility is more precious thing than dominance at one tourney/rg which means you prove djoko is greater plus dividing ndal rg achievements by two by that, otoh if you dont value that second title much it means dominance is greater, should choose only one option here, kinda you cant have a cake and eat it too:D
Click to expand...
Its the “off clay” argument, when Nadal has won everywhere more than once, it’s really not complicated :D
 
nachiket nolefam said:
To be very honest the tennis gods blessed us and gave Djokovic. It would have looked ridiculous having Nadal as slam leader when he had

209 weeks at number 1
64% slam wins on clay, a specialist surface and historically the most upset prone and having random winners
0 ATP titles

He would not have been the GOAT but he would have been the slam leader making the slam count a distorted metric.

It's actually good for tennis that a player who has dominated multiple surfaces and across the year has led the slams because

He has 409 weeks at number 1
7 ATP titles
14 slams outside his favorite tournament.
Click to expand...
Again (and again), this really isn't the point of this thread, but since we're here...
If clay is the most upset-prone surface, Rafa's unparalleled domination on clay speaks even more to his greatness.

I agree that Novak's overall edge is more than simply the two slams, but again, that's for another thread or three.
 
Azure said:
I fully expected folks to miss it :) Now you have people comparing Nadal with players who never had the chance to play on hard courts even!
Click to expand...
I always come in with higher expectations, and temporarily forget that many, many times posters - of all "sides" - have missed the point(s) of my threads.
They're not that deep, but they come from a place of intellectual honesty and fair-mindedness that is at a premium these days.
 
RaulRamirez said:
Again (and again), this really isn't the point of this thread, but since we're here...
If clay is the most upset-prone surface, Rafa's unparalleled domination on clay speaks even more to his greatness.

I agree that Novak's overall edge is more than simply the two slams, but again, that's for another thread or three.
Click to expand...
Clay is upset prone to non clay players. It's actually becoming least upset prone especially in bo5

Because there is always chances to break.
 
RaulRamirez said:
I've seen many posters -- often those who don't care for Rafa - say some variation of:
Well, Rafa is the "clay goat", but he's not the [overall] goat.

This always galls me, as:
A. No reasonable fan would dispute that Rafa is the best-ever on clay, so it's not conceding anything to say that. It also seems to be said/written in a way that doesn't give clay its proper due as a surface.
B. Being "clay goat" does not in any way preclude him from being the overall "goat". They're not mutually exclusive in any way.
It would almost be like saying, "Well, the U.S. has a larger population than Germany, but it doesn't have a larger population than Indonesia."
Makes no sense.
...
Having said this, if there is a mythical Open Era "goat", I'd still go with Novak, but being so dominant on clay in no way precludes Rafa.
Click to expand...
It doesn't, but Djokovic has more slam titles, more Masters 1000 titles, more weeks at number 1 (almost double as Nadal), more ATP finals (Rafa none), more overall titles, as well as more YE #1, which basically is a saying a player was the best in that year when it's all said and done.

That's why Novak is the GOAT and Nadal is not even in contention anymore, with all due respect.
 
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