Rafa is #2 ALL TIME, will be #1 SOON

McEnborg

Semi-Pro
He may be 4 slams behind Roger but...

-Rafa's already won more Masters' events than Fed.
-Rafa has a SIGNIFICANTLY better record against Novak and Murray (the two toughest players of their eras) than Fed. VERY compelling.
-Rafa has a 83.7% lifetime winning percentage, Fed has a 81.3%
-Rafa is 21-10 against Roger...21-10. THIS IS THE MOST COMPELLING ARGUMENT OF THEM ALL ROGER FANS! Stop minimizing it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Rafa has won THREE Davis Cup titles where's he'd been a huge factor.
-Rafa has been better on his worst surface than Roger has been on his (Roger has lost to Rafa in FOUR French finals and a semi)
-Rafa has won a Gold Medal. Roger has not been able to do it
-RAFA IS 8-2 against Roger in Grand Slams...EIGHT AND TWO
-Rafa has won a HIGHER percentage of the tournaments he's entered than Roger.
-Rafa has won 88.1 % his matches in Grand Slam events. Roger has won 86.3%. That is not an insignificant difference.

Okay...people will point to Roger's consecutive semis in Grand Slams, year end titles and longer time at #1 in the world. These are all compelling things. But, the reality is that Rafa is 4 years and 9 months younger than Roger. If he stays healthy for even another year or two, let alone 3 or 4...he will unquestionably surpass Roger.

But...even as it stands RIGHT NOW...a very compelling argument can be made that Rafa is the greatest of all time...RIGHT NOW!
 
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PCXL-Fan

Hall of Fame
Don't forget that Rafa might be gifted with the same longevity as Ferrer. So we may see year on year improvement from Nadal as he approaches 34. Spanish genetics.
 

Magnus

Legend
He may be 4 slams behind Roger but...

-Rafa's already won more Masters' events than Fed.
-Rafa has a SIGNIFICANTLY better record against Novak and Murray (the two toughest players of their eras) than Fed. VERY compelling.
-Rafa has a 83.7% lifetime winning percentage, Fed has a 81.3%
-Rafa is 21-10 against Roger...21-10. THIS IS THE MOST COMPELLING ARGUMENT OF THEM ALL ROGER FANS! Stop minimizing it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Rafa has won THREE Davis Cup titles where's he'd been a huge factor.
-Rafa has been better on his worst surface than Roger has been on his (Roger has lost to Rafa in FOUR French finals and a semi)
-Rafa has won a Gold Medal. Roger has not been able to do it
-RAFA IS 8-2 against Roger in Grand Slams...EIGHT AND TWO
-Rafa has won a HIGHER percentage of the tournaments he's entered than Roger.
-Rafa has won 88.1 % his matches in Grand Slam events. Roger has won 86.3%. That is not an insignificant difference.

Okay...people will point to Roger's consecutive semis in Grand Slams as well as more time at #1 in the world. These are all compelling things. But, the reality is that Rafa is 4 years and 9 months younger than Roger. If he stays healthy for even another year or two, let alone 3 or 4...he will unquestionably surpass Roger.

But...even as it stands RIGHT NOW...a very compelling argument can be made that Rafa is the greatest of all time...RIGHT NOW!

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McEnborg

Semi-Pro
I like Roger as well, but I'm being objective. Without question, they are the two greatest players of all time.
 

jg153040

G.O.A.T.
He may be 4 slams behind Roger but...

-Rafa's already won more Masters' events than Fed.
-Rafa has a SIGNIFICANTLY better record against Novak and Murray (the two toughest players of their eras) than Fed. VERY compelling.
-Rafa has a 83.7% lifetime winning percentage, Fed has a 81.3%
-Rafa is 21-10 against Roger...21-10. THIS IS THE MOST COMPELLING ARGUMENT OF THEM ALL ROGER FANS! Stop minimizing it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-Rafa has won THREE Davis Cup titles where's he'd been a huge factor.
-Rafa has been better on his worst surface than Roger has been on his (Roger has lost to Rafa in FOUR French finals and a semi)
-Rafa has won a Gold Medal. Roger has not been able to do it
-RAFA IS 8-2 against Roger in Grand Slams...EIGHT AND TWO
-Rafa has won a HIGHER percentage of the tournaments he's entered than Roger.
-Rafa has won 88.1 % his matches in Grand Slam events. Roger has won 86.3%. That is not an insignificant difference.

Okay...people will point to Roger's consecutive semis in Grand Slams, year end titles and longer time at #1 in the world. These are all compelling things. But, the reality is that Rafa is 4 years and 9 months younger than Roger. If he stays healthy for even another year or two, let alone 3 or 4...he will unquestionably surpass Roger.

But...even as it stands RIGHT NOW...a very compelling argument can be made that Rafa is the greatest of all time...RIGHT NOW!

Feds 17 majors and 302 weeks blows away anything Rafa has. Majors and rankings is TENNIS. Everything else is trivial. And this is only 5% of Feds records.

The only decent argument you have is h2h. This one is trickier. 6-2 in major finals does sound bad yes. I would agree, if they were both the same age. So it doesn't have that much value.

Prime Fed defeated Rafa twice at W. He lost at tail end of his prime close 5 setters (W08, AO09). And those could have gone either way, so it's not domination.

Their peaks didn't really collide and they are from different eras. Different conditions, that's why h2h argument doesn't hold much water.

Unless Rafa surpasses 17 majors or 302 weeks (one of those), he won't be in conversation.

H2h between Rafa, Nole and Murray has much more credibility since they are the same generation.
 

Blinkism

Legend
Don't forget that Rafa might be gifted with the same longevity as Ferrer. So we may see year on year improvement from Nadal as he approaches 34. Spanish genetics.

I would have called you crazy a few years ago, but Nadal keeps passing expectations and he's the dominant player on HC's at age 27 which would sound like a ridiculous thing to have predicted in, say, 2006.
 

jg153040

G.O.A.T.
I would have called you crazy a few years ago, but Nadal keeps passing expectations and he's the dominant player on HC's at age 27 which would sound like a ridiculous thing to have predicted in, say, 2006.

This is crazy. Doctors told Rafa in 2004 even that his career is finished. He said he cried for hours.

I guess even experts aren't all knowing. But Rafa at 27 dominating fast HC this is crazy. It puts him higher on the goat list in my book.
 

McEnborg

Semi-Pro
So many excuses and rationalizations. Dude, WEAK, WEAK arguments. The fact is that Nadal beat Roger regularly IN ROGER's PRIME. You are not objective worth squat.

Feds 17 majors and 302 weeks blows away anything Rafa has. Majors and rankings is TENNIS. Everything else is trivial. And this is only 5% of Feds records.

The only decent argument you have is h2h. This one is trickier. 6-2 in major finals does sound bad yes. I would agree, if they were both the same age. So it doesn't have that much value.

Prime Fed defeated Rafa twice at W. He lost at tail end of his prime close 5 setters (W08, AO09). And those could have gone either way, so it's not domination.

Their peaks didn't really collide and they are from different eras. Different conditions, that's why h2h argument doesn't hold much water.

Unless Rafa surpasses 17 majors or 302 weeks (one of those), he won't be in conversation.

H2h between Rafa, Nole and Murray has much more credibility since they are the same generation.
 

jg153040

G.O.A.T.
So many excuses and rationalizations. Dude, WEAK, WEAK arguments. The fact is that Nadal beat Roger regularly IN ROGER's PRIME. You are not objective worth squat.

It was ONE rationalization and no excuses. I said it is a decent argument. But age gap rationalization is a good one.

And that was even with your premise that h2h can be even used when comparing achievements. Nobody gives any trophies for that.

I mean, I was nice and throwing you a bone and you attack me. Do you even want to have discussions? Or have you already decided Nadal is the goat and attacking anyone who has other arguments?
 

RF20Lennon

Legend
Lets have a good look at both their Resumes. Federer has a better one by far!!!! He has achieved way more and thats all that matters. Resume and consistency.
 

Dark Magician

Professional
Nadal has a very good chance to be the GOAT. He just need 2 more good seasons and that it. The arguments made are all valid and equalise/compensate for the other records Roger has.
 
If Rafa is YE #1 this year and next (not hard to imagine with nothing to defend at two Majors), and ends up with 200+ weeks at #1 and four YE#1s, to go along with 15-16 Majors total and his Masters titles and total domination of the entire field overall, it will be a pretty tough résumé to poke holes in. YEC? That's really the only gap at this point, but with Fed faltering badly, who's to say Rafa won't win that title a time or two?
 

FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
If Rafa is YE #1 this year and next (not hard to imagine with nothing to defend at two Majors), and ends up with 200+ weeks at #1 and four YE#1s, to go along with 15-16 Majors total and his Masters titles and total domination of the entire field overall, it will be a pretty tough résumé to poke holes in. YEC? That's really the only gap at this point, but with Fed faltering badly, who's to say Rafa won't win that title a time or two?

Agreed. I posted this on another thread...

I think it's so incredibly myopic to treat tennis as just a contest of "who can win the most majors". Yes, the majors are most important, but let's not marginalize the rest of the tour either.

Nadal really has some work to do to catch Fed. Here's how I see the matchup:

1. Major wins: Fed, 17>13
2. Major finals: Fed, 24>18
3. Weeks at No. 1: Fed 302>102
4. Masters+WTF: Fed, 27>26
5. Olympic Gold: Nadal
6. Total ATP Titles: Fed, 77>60

I don't think Nadal has a chance to catch Fed in weeks at No. 1, nor do I think Nadal has to beat Fed in every one of those categories. However, for me to say Nadal has a greater overall resume than Fed, I'd like to see the following:

1. 16+ majors, with at least 1 more AO and 1 more W/USO
2. 22+ major finals with at least 2 more hardcourt major finals
3. 200+ weeks at No. 1, with 2 more year-end No. 1 rankings (as an aside -- Fed currently leads Nadal in total weeks in the top 2 with 418 to Nadal's 347, but Nadal is very very likely to blow by him in that metric, which is a nice feather in Nadal's cap)
4. More total ATP titles than Fed
5. Assuming that Nadal will have a healthy lead in Masters titles over Fed at the end of his career, I'd like to see Nadal get one significant indoor title at either Paris or WTF. WTF is better, but not by much IMO

As it stands now, Nadal has a lot of work to do to catch Fed's overall resume.
 

Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
Nadal is only the 6th greatest of all time at present;

1. Roger Federer
2. Rod Laver
3. Pete Sampras
4. Pancho Gonzales
5. Ken Rosewall
6. Rafael Nadal
 

Chico

Banned
Nadal is only the 6th greatest of all time at present;

1. Roger Federer
2. Rod Laver
3. Pete Sampras
4. Pancho Gonzales
5. Ken Rosewall
6. Rafael Nadal

Pretty close, but I would put Borg over Nadal as well. So 7th overall. Still second tier.
 

augustobt

Legend
What most of Nadal Fans can't realize is that Nadal may have 30 majors, he won't be the greatest simply because he is an unidimensional defensive player who have achieved 90% only in one surface.
 

FrontHeadlock

Hall of Fame
What most of Nadal Fans can't realize is that Nadal may have 30 majors, he won't be the greatest simply because he is an unidimensional defensive player who have achieved 90% only in one surface.

Rafa has 10 major finals, 5 of which are major titles, off of clay, which are 56% and 38% of the totals, respectively.
 
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