Rafa made Toni or Toni made Rafa?

Rafa made Toni or Toni made Rafa?

  • Rafa made Toni.

    Votes: 33 50.8%
  • Toni made Rafa.

    Votes: 18 27.7%
  • Toni was only useful in formative years

    Votes: 10 15.4%
  • Anything else. Explain.

    Votes: 4 6.2%

  • Total voters
    65

tex123

Hall of Fame
Everyone knows the Toni-Rafa story. He trained Rafa as a child, instilled discipline and work ethic. But did he really make Rafa a legend with 22 Slams? Rafa is super talented - one of the best 3 to ever play the game. Would he not have succeeded with or without Toni?

Toni's management of Rafa in his down years of 2014-2015 was poor. Rafa was overworked under him but under Moya he did targeted practice, improved various aspects of his game and delivered more bangs for bucks. Toni also tried to train Felix Auger Aliassime with hardly any success. If he was a such a great coach, would he not have got more out of Felix? Felix is an ideal student unlike Kyrgios. So, he can't complain about his attitude. When he took on Felix, jury was still out.

After all these years of coaching Felix, what do you think now?
 
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The kind of crap Toni pulled off would have left most kids mentally scarred, or have them swear off tennis altogether.

The fact that Rafa emerged out of it an all-time great says much more about Rafa than about Toni.

“Ten spears go to battle, and nine shatter. Did that war forge the one that remained? No. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break.”
 
seems like you already answered your own question
I still give him credit for discipline and work ethic. But that's just my opinion. This forum was adamant a few years ago that Toni was a legend. I wanted to see if that view has shifted a bit.
 
The kind of crap Toni pulled off would have left most kids mentally scarred, or have them swear off tennis altogether.

The fact that Rafa emerged out of it an all-time great says much more about Rafa than about Toni.

“Ten spears go to battle, and nine shatter. Did that war forge the one that remained? No. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break.”
There is that. Reminds me of Agassi as well. He hated tennis because of his father's tough attitude. Jelena Dokic is another - her dad was abusive though.
 
To summarise in a few sentences; Toni Nadal is to tennis what Clive Woodward is to rugby union. His career trajectory as a coach is identical in its successes as Rafa's trajectory as a player, until they parted ways and Nadal continued to get better and Toni went into obscurity.
 
OP you have already stated that Toni had instilled discipline and work ethic in Rafa from a young age - this can't really be compared with the FAA situation where he is basically fully formed coming on board with Toni, in his 20ies. Another thing Rafa is outstanding at is mental toughness, and that's probably something that cannot be taught, one is born with it.
So just to say you might be a bit unfair to Toni there, in your comparison. Also, FAA had no titles on the tour when joining up w/ Toni, now he has four or five titles, so Toni was a good influence on him, helped him get over a hurdle there.
Of course Toni was comparatively of less usefulness in Rafa's late career as the results with Moya show, but still huge credit to him for developing one of the co-GOATs.
 
Toni was more than a mere tennis teacher to Rafa. He was key in his tennis and personal development. He was the one responsible for Rafa to play lefthanded. As great as Rafa is by himself, there wouldn't be Rafa as we know without uncle Toni. So all credit to him.
 
Toni was more than a mere tennis teacher to Rafa. He was key in his tennis and personal development. He was the one responsible for Rafa to play lefthanded. As great as Rafa is by himself, there wouldn't be Rafa as we know without uncle Toni. So all credit to him.
This is not true that Toni was the one responsible for Rafa to play left handed. Rafa has explained multiple times that playing tennis left handed was a natural choice for him.

An excerpt from Rafa's interview with Japanese TV in October 2010:

Question: "You are able to use both hands, at what point in time did you decide to play with the left hand?"

Rafa: "...When I started playing [tennis], I used both hands to hit both backhand and forehand. When I was 3 years old, I didn’t have enough power, so Uncle Toni taught me to do that. After that, when I was about 9 or 10 years old, I had to use only one side, and it became that it was natural to use my left hand."
 
Everyone knows the Toni-Rafa story. He trained Rafa as a child, instilled discipline and work ethic. But did he really make Rafa a legend with 22 Slams? Rafa is super talented - one of the best 3 to ever play the game. Would he not have succeeded with or without Toni?

Toni's management of Rafa in his down years of 2014-2015 was poor. Rafa was overworked under him but under Moya he did targeted practice, improved various aspects of his game and delivered more bangs for bucks. Toni also tried to train Felix Auger Aliassime with hardly any success. If he was a such a great coach, would he not have got more out of Felix? Felix is an ideal student unlike Kyrgios. So, he can't complain about his attitude. When he took on Felix, jury was still out.

After all these years of coaching Felix, what do you think now?
Rafa is a product of his family, including his extended family.

Rafa says in his autobiography (“Rafa: My Story”, 2011): ¤¤ So there was fun and magic in my relationship with Toni, even if the prevailing mood when we trained was stony and severe. And we had plenty of success. If he hadn't made me play without water that day, if he hadn't singled me out for especially harsh treatment when I was in that group of little kids learning the game, if I hadn't cried as I did at the injustice and abuse he heaped on me, maybe I would not be the player I am today. He always stressed the importance of endurance". …

But my values as a person and my way of being, which ultimately is what underlines my game, come from my father and mother. It's true that Toni has insisted I have to behave well on court, set an example, never throw a racket to the floor in anger, something I have never, ever
done. But - and this is the point - if I had been brought up differently at home, I might not have paid him any attention. My parents always imposed a lot of discipline on me. … Both my parents and, for that matter, my uncle Toni have always said that, never mind the tennis, their biggest desire was that I should grow up to be "good people." My mother says that if I were not, if I behaved like a spoiled brat, she would still love me, but she'd be too embarrassed to travel halfway around the world to watch me play. They drummed into me the importance of treating everybody with respect from an early age. Whenever our team lost a football match, my father insisted that I had to go up to the players of the rival team afterward and congratulate them. …
For all the discipline, I had an amazingly happy and warm family life as a child…

Every member of my family has contributed to who I am now. In the case of my uncle Miguel Ángel [a pro footballer], I was lucky to get a taste of the kind of life that would await me after I made the grade as a tennis player. He was a big star, especially in Mallorca. He gave me a glimpse of the life I was to live: he made money and he became famous; he appeared in the media, and he was mobbed and cheered wherever he went. But he always remained a modest and straightforward person. That for me he always remained just my uncle meant that I also learned from a young age to put all that celebrity stuff in perspective and, when the time came, to keep my feet on the ground. ¤¤
 
Everyone knows the Toni-Rafa story. He trained Rafa as a child, instilled discipline and work ethic. But did he really make Rafa a legend with 22 Slams? Rafa is super talented - one of the best 3 to ever play the game. Would he not have succeeded with or without Toni?

Toni's management of Rafa in his down years of 2014-2015 was poor. Rafa was overworked under him but under Moya he did targeted practice, improved various aspects of his game and delivered more bangs for bucks. Toni also tried to train Felix Auger Aliassime with hardly any success. If he was a such a great coach, would he not have got more out of Felix? Felix is an ideal student unlike Kyrgios. So, he can't complain about his attitude. When he took on Felix, jury was still out.

After all these years of coaching Felix, what do you think now?
Toni Nadal has been Felix's part-time coach since 2021 and still is. They have met each other only in a few tournaments and Felix has practiced in Mallorca only a few times. I think, it's not enough to succeed (to win big titles). Toni is currently in Madrid.
 
Is Toni a good enough coach to make a pro tennis player? I don't think so, certainly none before or since Rafa.
Plus he screwed up Rafa's serve, by making him serve left-handed.
I bet Rafa would have been better if Moya had raised him.
 
To summarise in a few sentences; Toni Nadal is to tennis what Clive Woodward is to rugby union. His career trajectory as a coach is identical in its successes as Rafa's trajectory as a player, until they parted ways and Nadal continued to get better and Toni went into obscurity.
Toni hasn't gone 'into obscurity.' He is the Head of Rafa's academy in Mallorca and still famous.
 
Is Toni a good enough coach to make a pro tennis player? I don't think so, certainly none before or since Rafa.
Plus he screwed up Rafa's serve, by making him serve left-handed.
I bet Rafa would have been better if Moya had raised him.
Toni did not (!) make Rafa play tennis left-handed. By the way, he also plays billiards/snooker left-handed.

Secondly, Moya couldn't "raise" Rafa because Moya is only 10 years older than Rafa. Toni started to coach Rafa when Moya was 13 - 14 years old.
 
This is not true that Toni was the one responsible for Rafa to play left handed. Rafa has explained multiple times that playing tennis left handed was a natural choice for him.

An excerpt from Rafa's interview with Japanese TV in October 2010:

Question: "You are able to use both hands, at what point in time did you decide to play with the left hand?"

Rafa: "...When I started playing [tennis], I used both hands to hit both backhand and forehand. When I was 3 years old, I didn’t have enough power, so Uncle Toni taught me to do that. After that, when I was about 9 or 10 years old, I had to use only one side, and it became that it was natural to use my left hand."

Uncle Toni says it here. He was the one that made Rafa hit left handed. At the beginning, Rafa hit his drive and backhand double handed. Toni was the one responsible for the change as he himself explains

00.45

Interviewer: So it was rafa who decided to play left hand?
Uncle Toni: no, no, it was me. I made him play with his left hand. I thought he was left handed.
 
Toni did not (!) make Rafa play tennis left-handed. By the way, he also plays billiards/snooker left-handed.

Secondly, Moya couldn't "raise" Rafa because Moya is only 10 years older than Rafa. Toni started to coach Rafa when Moya was 13 - 14 years old.
Are you really this dumb? I never said Moya could, I said IF, as in hypothetical.
 
Depends. Coaches like Toni or Richard Williams really are the reasons their players are what they are.

Can They can shape your life ? yes! Can you make you a champion when there's not enough talent in you? Nope. Being me a coach that can make a weaponless pusher like Simons in big 3 era of even in somewhat decent era.
 
The formative years are paramount for success, BUT Rafa has a God given talent AND physique that allows him to do the unimaginable on a tennis court.

So, Rafa's talent and innate mentality perhaps weights more heavily to tio Toni's tutelage.
 
The kind of crap Toni pulled off would have left most kids mentally scarred, or have them swear off tennis altogether.

The fact that Rafa emerged out of it an all-time great says much more about Rafa than about Toni.
Mike Agassi was an absolutely abusive tyrant and makes Uncle Toni look like a gentle saint. Rafa has said several times that Toni's expectations helped him even if he didn't always embrace it.

Look at the fighter he helped create. A certain toughness as a coach might be what is lacking with the next gen, almost all of whom wilt like a daisy in pressure situations. Toni didn't molly coddle Rafa and his nephew is arguably the toughest mental player ever, or at the very least top 3.

This doesn't sound like anything Toni did would mentally scar a fly, much less a boy. Toni said:

“I demanded a lot from Rafael because I cared a lot. I believe in the work and I believe in the players who are strong enough to cope with the intensity of this work. I cannot understand another style of life. In my opinion, you always have to know your place in the world. This is why I was like this with Rafael. I knew he could cope. I was hard on him, but not strict, and I was tough for his greater good.”

https://www.essentiallysports.com/a...he-was-hard-on-rafael-nadal-in-his-early-age/
 
Mike Agassi was an absolutely abusive tyrant and makes Uncle Toni look like a gentle saint. Rafa has said several times that Toni's expectations helped him even if he didn't always embrace it.

Look at the fighter he helped create. A certain toughness as a coach might be what is lacking with the next gen, almost all of whom wilt like a daisy in pressure situations. Toni didn't molly coddle Rafa and his nephew is arguably the toughest mental player ever, or at the very least top 3.

This doesn't sound like anything Toni did would mentally scar a fly, much less a boy. Toni said:

“I demanded a lot from Rafael because I cared a lot. I believe in the work and I believe in the players who are strong enough to cope with the intensity of this work. I cannot understand another style of life. In my opinion, you always have to know your place in the world. This is why I was like this with Rafael. I knew he could cope. I was hard on him, but not strict, and I was tough for his greater good.”

https://www.essentiallysports.com/a...he-was-hard-on-rafael-nadal-in-his-early-age/
The official biography mentions a series of unsavory episodes. Read that
 
Toni got lucky he had Rafa as nephew.

Rafa got lucky he had Toni as his uncle.

Who made whom?

Would Rafa become what he is today without Toni. I say a big NO.

Would Toni be what he is today without Rafa.
A bigger NO.

Sometimes it’s the team which makes you while you make the team.

Messi would not have been THE Messi without FCB or Ronaldo wouldn’t have been THE Ronaldo without RM. That is the only truth. Your success in sports or any facet in life is not just about you, but about all the right things/people/team that happened to you.

In short, both made each other what they are.
 
It's difficult to make conclusions when we don't have much insight into Toni training Rafa in the first place. If they had some kind of "Keeping up with the Nadals" show, then it'd be more clear whether Toni played a very significant role or it was mostly Rafa's inherent brilliance that did the job. Fwiw, Rafa certainly was a prodigy and that innate ability isn't something any coach can master in their student. It's things like dedication, commitment to training - those could be in question of whether Toni's influence was key.
 
It's difficult to make conclusions when we don't have much insight into Toni training Rafa in the first place. If they had some kind of "Keeping up with the Nadals" show, then it'd be more clear whether Toni played a very significant role or it was mostly Rafa's inherent brilliance that did the job. Fwiw, Rafa certainly was a prodigy and that innate ability isn't something any coach can master in their student. It's things like dedication, commitment to training - those could be in question of whether Toni's influence was key.
Toni went too far in his abuse imo. But maybe it helped mould Nadal into what he is today.
 
Toni went too far in his abuse imo. But maybe it helped mould Nadal into what he is today.
Tio Toni after RAFA told him he wanted to end practice after 4 hours to go watch DBZ:
giphy.gif
 
Great coaches need great players and Vice versa. Now rafa could have made Toni look great when he was solid. It takes two to tango but tennis is an individual sport. In my opinion, mental toughness is mostly in you. A coach can bring it out of you to help you feel more confident. I still see rafa having great success without Toni to be honest.

Toni Nadal is coaching a very talented Felix AA. However - Felix mentally is not consistent yet has all the talent to put together a grand slam run.
 
Sometimes it’s the team which makes you while you make the team.

Messi would not have been THE Messi without FCB or Ronaldo wouldn’t have been THE Ronaldo without RM. That is the only truth. Your success in sports or any facet in life is not just about you, but about all the right things/people/team that happened to you.
LOL. Manchester United and Alex Ferguson made Cristiano Ronaldo the world superstar. He first won the Champions League and Ballon d'Or at Manchester United. Ronaldo's first 3 seasons as a world class player (2006-2009) were at Manchester United. Real Madrid took the best player in the world at the time, or second best, in 2009.

Something changed in Ronaldo at Real Madrid too. In his first spell at Manchester United, Ronaldo was about the team first, and wanting himself as the dominant player in that team. His second spell at Manchester United he was more about his own records first, so toys were thrown out of the pram.
 
If you look at FAA's results post Toni it's fairly obvious that Rafa would have been Rafa with or without Toni.
Rafa would have been different. Less routine, would make more mistakes, probably show more arrogance. With this attitude, I don't think he dominates on clay anywhere near as much. His career probably would have been similar to Becker's, at best. He might have been even more entertaining, perhaps.
 
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