Moon Shooter
Hall of Fame
I think they should have a separate list for women. I mean if a female player would get demolished by the men below her on the list, it is exposed as hype.
Rafael Nadal retires as the 12th Greatest athlete of the 21st Century
- Thread starter Razer
- Start date
heninfan99
Talk Tennis Guru
Funny how they bunched Djokovic and Nadal together it was as if they were like "we don't know anything about tennis so well just slap them in here". lol
Where are the great football players? Kroos, Modric or Iniesta to name a few. They have won 5-6 Champions Leagues, WC, Ballon d'Or and multiple national titles. These guys must be above American athletes with the exception of Lebron and Phelps.
1. Messi
2. Djokovic
3. Phelps
4. C Ronaldo
5. Bolt
6. Lebron
7. Schumacher
8. Federer
9. Kroos
10. Pogacar / Frome
11. Hamilton
12. Iniesta
13. Nadal
14. Curry
15. Ronaldo (brazilian)
16. Modric
17. Valentino Rossi/ Marc Masquez
18. Z Zidane
19. Mayweather
20. Nikola Karabatic
21. T Brady
22. Kohey Uchimura - best gymnast ever
23. Ronaldinho
24. Duncan. 25 Shaq ----> My list is better than the american joke.
1. Messi
2. Djokovic
3. Phelps
4. C Ronaldo
5. Bolt
6. Lebron
7. Schumacher
8. Federer
9. Kroos
10. Pogacar / Frome
11. Hamilton
12. Iniesta
13. Nadal
14. Curry
15. Ronaldo (brazilian)
16. Modric
17. Valentino Rossi/ Marc Masquez
18. Z Zidane
19. Mayweather
20. Nikola Karabatic
21. T Brady
22. Kohey Uchimura - best gymnast ever
23. Ronaldinho
24. Duncan. 25 Shaq ----> My list is better than the american joke.
I think a lot of people in general automatically assume that individual sports are more difficult, and produces the better and / or greater athletes, because they're out there doing it on their own.
When it comes to men's sports, clearly it's a no brainer that in modern times, the best athletes will mostly gravitate towards the major team sports, which have so much more money on offer, and in which they have a much better chance of making serious big bucks, or at least merely good money. The gap between the money on offer in football globally, basketball, baseball, the NFL etc. and individual sports like tennis, has widened considerably during the past 3 decades or so, and continues to grow wider, to extent that more and more players lower down the food chain are raking in it while lower ranked tennis players have compared their income vs. expenses week by week. So a result the major team sports clearly have significantly larger talent pools, and far more and tougher competition to overcome to become among the best in.
Borg and McEnroe both had years when their prize money alone, without factoring in endorsements, was greater than the earnings of any athlete in any team sport. Many football players in Europe, basketball players in the NBA etc. could only have dreamed about earning in one full year, what they made just from entering a few invitational events. That's unimaginable nowadays. The 90s looks to have been the start of the big power shift away from individual sports towards team sports, with it only accelerating further since then.
I've said many times that if Nadal was born in 1996 instead of 1986, surely he'd be far more likely to choose football over tennis (clearly choosing tennis worked out well for him though !), while Mike Agassi said he'd push Andre towards baseball (or golf) instead of tennis if he could have done things all over again.
British sporting success, is clearly not in the same stratosphere as US sporting success. But when it comes to discussing the greatest ever British athletes, a lot of people here instantly gravitate towards Murray plus Steve Redgrave and Daley Thompson. A lot of them won't consider Bobby Charlton, George Best, Kenny Dalglish (widely regarded as the greatest player in Liverpool's history), or more recently David Beckham (IMO the most consistent performer during Man Utd's 1998/1999 treble winning season). If we say that Murray for example is the greatest ever British athlete which many people in the UK rushed to do in 2016 in-particular (his achievements have been amazing but I don't think he is), then for perspective we're saying that there has never been any British sporting star in history that was greater / better than Jim Courier. And while Courier also had truly amazing achievements, he wouldn't come remotely close to making any list of the 50 greatest US male athletes (as a starting point).
When it comes to men's sports, clearly it's a no brainer that in modern times, the best athletes will mostly gravitate towards the major team sports, which have so much more money on offer, and in which they have a much better chance of making serious big bucks, or at least merely good money. The gap between the money on offer in football globally, basketball, baseball, the NFL etc. and individual sports like tennis, has widened considerably during the past 3 decades or so, and continues to grow wider, to extent that more and more players lower down the food chain are raking in it while lower ranked tennis players have compared their income vs. expenses week by week. So a result the major team sports clearly have significantly larger talent pools, and far more and tougher competition to overcome to become among the best in.
Borg and McEnroe both had years when their prize money alone, without factoring in endorsements, was greater than the earnings of any athlete in any team sport. Many football players in Europe, basketball players in the NBA etc. could only have dreamed about earning in one full year, what they made just from entering a few invitational events. That's unimaginable nowadays. The 90s looks to have been the start of the big power shift away from individual sports towards team sports, with it only accelerating further since then.
I've said many times that if Nadal was born in 1996 instead of 1986, surely he'd be far more likely to choose football over tennis (clearly choosing tennis worked out well for him though !), while Mike Agassi said he'd push Andre towards baseball (or golf) instead of tennis if he could have done things all over again.
British sporting success, is clearly not in the same stratosphere as US sporting success. But when it comes to discussing the greatest ever British athletes, a lot of people here instantly gravitate towards Murray plus Steve Redgrave and Daley Thompson. A lot of them won't consider Bobby Charlton, George Best, Kenny Dalglish (widely regarded as the greatest player in Liverpool's history), or more recently David Beckham (IMO the most consistent performer during Man Utd's 1998/1999 treble winning season). If we say that Murray for example is the greatest ever British athlete which many people in the UK rushed to do in 2016 in-particular (his achievements have been amazing but I don't think he is), then for perspective we're saying that there has never been any British sporting star in history that was greater / better than Jim Courier. And while Courier also had truly amazing achievements, he wouldn't come remotely close to making any list of the 50 greatest US male athletes (as a starting point).
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True. Swap Williams for Federer.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
They televise darts?
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
The depth in football is so incredibly ridiculous that it is tough to find words for what guys like Messi, Ronaldo or Pele achieved. I know countless of people I grew up with in Germany who basically spent all their youth playing football, most of them never made it better than 7th league at the seniors. The most talented of all who played at the youth teams of the big clubs for the most part ended up in third division or maybe somewhere in second Belgium or Austria league. I always like to refer to my favourite book “Fever Pitch” where author Nick Hornby describes the fate of Arsenal Player Gus Caesar, a guy who was by far the best among his friends, by far the best in his school, by far the best in his local club, getting to Arsenal youth team and even here was selected out of only three who got into the professionals. So basically he was winning all his life and was always the best among his peers only to be a laughing stock in the end who was made fun of by the own fans. The talent pool in football is so ridiculous that even at the last meters before the finish line you can fail.
It is incredible what Phelps did, but you cannot really compare a sport like swimming with football, let alone Taylor in darts lol.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Ronaldinho has no business being on such a list.
_phantom
Hall of Fame
Kroos, Iniesta better than Ronaldo (the fat old one) and Zidane?
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
lol no way in hell. Also not better than Zidane. Unless we restrict it completely to the 21st century, but even then I have my problems as Ronaldo had that great 2002 WC and Zidane the 2000 Euro, 2002 CHL final and 2006 WC. But I could still see a case for Iniesta.Kroos, Iniesta better than Ronaldo (the fat old one) and Zidane?
Horrible list !
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
For being from the US.
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
I see that the link of my reasoning continues to ignore. Do we agree that Djokovic being the most titled in the history of tennis in this ranking of the best 10 sportsmen from 2000 to today has credentials to stay at least in top 3? Do we agree that the career of the other two despite being recognized lower than that of Djokovic for global titles is not too far from that of the Serbian? If the answers, as in my case, are affirmative, then all 3 have the right to stay in the top 10. Then it can be discussed if instead of putting them in the fifth-session place as I did I have to stay a little further back, but That Big Three have citizenship in the top 10 of the best sportsmen from 2000 to today are undoubted. With regard to the speech that tennis in many areas of the world is not so practiced, they are random speeches on which you can debate indefinitely and that involves practically all sports except the Soccer, the only real sport with a truly global catchment area . So since the Soccer is the most popular and practiced sport to the world we make, in the top 10 only do we only put footballers? The parameters you use are not very confusing. First it was mentioned Bolt, well the sprint historically is dominated by African Americans, yet in the United States historical homeland of the sprint thanks to the immense African American pelvis, the same African American boys during the high school and college periods to the tracks of the track and field prefer in the A vast majority of cases dedicate themselves to sports such as American basketball and football. On the African continent they do not even have the structures to shape high -level sprinters, so much so that except for rare exceptions the most promising African sprints I must emigrate to the States to which a scholarship is offered in the various colleges. So in this scenario also the size of a Bolt must be reduced? Cycling even more than tennis has its operational base in Europe, so Pogacar can we exclude it? The American football is basically not very practiced in the rest of the world, so we exclude the Brady on duty? Ditto Diche for baseball. Winter sports have their own catchment area in places where they can afford to have the conditions to be able to practice it frequently, so where there are mountain ranges, winter climate and adequate structures with ice slopes, so we exclude all the interpreters of winter sports? And I could continue indefinitely.
helterskelter
G.O.A.T.
Ah, okay. Got it now. Well, now that we’ve established that you know who Cristiano Ronaldo is, can you please tell me? I had never heard of him until I saw this list.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Agreed.
I lot of people don't realise how astronomical the depth in football is, and act as if rising to the top in far smaller sports (and every other sport including 2nd placed basketball is far smaller), is somehow similar in scale (or better) when it is anything but.
I've played football with people that made the Leeds United and Nottingham Forest reserve / junior teams in the past and were unbelievably talented prodigies when they were kids, looked after their bodies properly, had junior coaches raving about them, but couldn't make it to the pros, or even at a 5th or 6th tier team in England. Clearly they could run rings around me like I was a training cone !
I saw pre-COVID stats, that there were 55,865 players in 132 top or second tier leagues around the world in 2019. And that didn't include the 3rd tier (League One) in England, in which the average player salary probably would have been around 200k per year (it's definitely more than that now) at the time.
In the UK there are also plenty of people who act as if World Cups in Rugby Union and Cricket are somehow equivalents to that in football. They portray English football players as losers compared to English rugby and cricket players that won their respective World Cups in 2003 and 2019.
But, while England do deserve all the ridicule received for failing to win any major international football tournaments since 1966 (and banging on about 1966, or beating Germany 5-1 in a World Cup qualifier when Germany still ended up doing better at that World Cup anyway etc.), clearly it's exponentially more difficult to be 'winners' in football. I mean the standard of competition just within CONMEBOL in football, even though it only has 10 members, is surely better than that globally in cricket.
Iniesta who officially retired a few days ago was mentioned up thread. He was named as the man of the match in a World Cup final in 2010 (during which he scored the winning goal), European Championship final in 2012, Champions League final in 2015 (he was influential in all 4 Champions League finals that he played in including 2006 as a 2nd half substitute, and scored a decisive goal in a semi-final in 2009), La Liga Clásico at the Bernabéu in 2015/2016 (after which the Real Madrid fans gave him a standing ovation) and Copa del Rey final in 2018.
Regardless of all of that, many people will consider a large number athletes in way smaller sports to be greater than him, despite those stages that he excelled in being significantly bigger globally. I mean a grand slam final in tennis clearly isn't as big as that La Liga Clásico when Messi and CRonaldo played for the respective clubs (though Messi was injured for that particular match) was, let alone a Champions League final, before we even consider the World Cup.
Fever Pitch is great. I should re-read it one day.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
You missed the entire point.
First of all we don't rate tennis players that great as athletes for Djokovic to be in the top 10, pretty sure @weakera thinks on those lines despite being a Nadal fanatic himself. So how can Djokovic be in the top 3 if Tennis players are not the most athletic lot? Tennis is a mix of skills+athleticism+stamina conditioning+mental strength ... So it is not purely based on athleticism only otherwise Big 3 would be smoked out of the waters in their 30s.
I too am no fan of American football, it is a sport played by USA only but some of the best athletes do play in American Football and I wouldn't be surprised if they are better athletes than Djokovic/Federer. Can those guys excel as Tennis players? Hell no, but that still doesn't change the fact that as pure athletes they might be better.
Hood_Man
G.O.A.T.
MURICA!! F*** YEAH!!
Kroos, Iniesta better than Ronaldo (the fat old one) and Zidane?
Yes.. why not? They are 3 of the best midfielders in modern football. 3 geniuses of the most popular sport in the world, they led their teams to win great titles such as the World Cup and the UEFA Champions League several times.they must be on these lists no matter what. Americans are simply ignorant or cretins..... Diana Taurasi? Albert Pujols, Aaron Donald, Patrick MahomWho?
Kroos - x1 World Cup, x6 Champions League, x7 Bundesliga/LaLiga
Iniesta - x1 World Cup, x2 Uefa Euro, x4 Champions League, x9 LaLiga
Zidane - x1 World Cup, x1 Uefa Euro, x2 Champion League, x3 Seria A/ La Liga
Ronaldo - x2 World Cup, x2 American Cup, x3 Leagues
I was a no lose scenario final from my perspective, with one of the 2 best / greatest footballing nations never to have won the World Cup before, guaranteed to strike gold. I also enjoyed Uruguay's SF run at that tournament. I remember the ITV coverage of the Ghana-Uruguay QF being so biased in favour of Ghana (the commentator literally said 'we're all Ghana fans now), which prompted me to be a contrarian and support Uruguay. The hysteria following Suárez's handball was ridiculously over the top.
On a separate note, this photo was certainly packed full of sporting talent.
There has been plenty to criticise Suárez for over the years, but definitely not that IMO.
I found the common narrative that Ghana were robbed there to be bizarre, when the same player whose shot Suárez blocked, Dominic Adiyiah literally threw himself to the ground to win the originating free-kick, and if Ghana had scored there the goal should have been disallowed for offside anyway.
RS
Bionic Poster
RS
Bionic Poster
England getting destroyed by Germany but Lampard's goal was clearly in
and that would have made it 2-2 and switched the momentum. A lot of pressure was on Messi and Argentina as well for obvious reasons but that didn't go down so well.Shakira's WC song was good and South Africa the perfect setting for that.
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Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
I really don't think I've missed the point but in any case it's you who are using parameters that are more suited to your evaluation tastes. If you make a list of the best athletes, you must take into account the greatness of each athlete in terms of their sport. And in any case in the NFL not all roles require great athletic means. Tennis is a skill sport but especially in recent decades it has a strong physical component, ergo, to reach certain levels you also need to be excellent athletes. However, I repeat, the greatness of an athlete goes beyond all this, otherwise we could say that any athletic freak who plays in the NBA despite being mediocre in basketball can enter this ranking, or we award the best decathlete as number 1 on the list. Tennis is a super complete sport, it is no coincidence that Federer but above all Djokovic and Nadal at their peak, in addition to their tennis skills, combined crazy physical means.
THUNDERVOLLEY
G.O.A.T.
Nope. She was the greater player and made an impact in the sport that no male player has in decades. Of any male player of the 21st century that should be recognized, it can only be Djokovic.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Federer, Nadal and Djokovic play a sport that is only available for rich/above middle class people in most countries, also the sport is not that famous outside Europe, in USA it is declining with kids selecting higher paying sports as a career, so no Djokovic beating up loser mugs in his 30s will not make him 3rd.
Djokovic does not run as fast as the elite sprinters on the planet, I am sure his 100M time would be more than 10.5 seconds.
Djokovic does not swim as fast or as far as the elite swimmers.
Djokovic does not fight like Alastair Overeem/Brock Lesnar/Stipe Miocic/Jon Jones/others in UFC, neither does he punch as hard as the top boxers... all of them would kill him.
Djokovic does not climb rocks or do high risk mountaineering or extreme Parkour stunts on skyscrapers risking his life.
Djokovic has supreme VO2 max but can he beat the Tour De France Cyclists? He cannot
Djokovic has superb flexibility but he is no gymnast, those guys will beat him too because they are better trained than him.
Djokovic does not have strength levels comparable to the elite strongest powerlifters & strongmen on the planet. I am sure Europe is filled with all those people, loads.
So look at it this way, Djokovic is athletically inferior to all the elite sportsmen on earth outside Tennis in some way or the other, how exactly does he come 3rd in your list ???
He could be 3rd among the sportsmen in some lists or in top 10 but not as a pure athlete because Tennis players themselves are not at the extreme end in any area related to athleticism.
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Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
But what the hell does that mean?
Those are your parameters that only make sense to you. Djokovic can't beat Bolt in a sprint? So what? Would Bolt beat Djokovic in an endurance race?
But do you realize the absurd reasoning you are making?
The best athlete in each ranking evaluates the greatness of an athlete in their sport compared to that of others in their field.
Have you ever heard of the Laurens World Sports Award, basically a sports version of the Hollywood Oscars?
Here you can see from 2005 to today how many times in the event a member of the big three has been awarded as best athlete of the year. I'll save you the trouble, 12 times in the last 20 editions that award has been awarded to a member of the big three. And you tell me about tennis as a sport for the upper class, Djokovic who can't fly like Superman or run as fast as Flash. Come on, let's be serious, those parameters of yours are literally anachronistic.
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
Laureus World Sports Award for Sportsman of the Year
Multiple titles#AthleteYears
5
Roger Federer 2005–2008, 2018
Novak Djokovic 2012, 2015–2016, 2019, 2024
4
Usain Bolt 2009–2010, 2013, 2017
2
Tiger Woods 2000-2001
Michael Schumacher 2002, 2004
Rafael Nadal 2011, 2021
Lionel Messi 2020, 2023
LOL
Multiple titles#AthleteYears
5
Roger Federer 2005–2008, 2018
Novak Djokovic 2012, 2015–2016, 2019, 2024
4
Usain Bolt 2009–2010, 2013, 2017
2
Tiger Woods 2000-2001
Michael Schumacher 2002, 2004
Rafael Nadal 2011, 2021
Lionel Messi 2020, 2023
LOL
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Razer
G.O.A.T.
Bolt is the GOAT at running, he doesn't have to beat Djoko/anyone at endurance, if you wanna boast of your edurance then go and enter the tour de france and win it or participate in 10Km marathon and win it ? There are people who will beat you there.
It is not Bolt's problem, he is already sitting at the top with his athletic benchmark which will be chased. Djokovic is not at the top at anything athletically.
0 Times.
Laureus is not an award which judges athleticism. Rejected, go back and learn what athleticism is all about, then come back to me.
Winners or Errors
Legend
Not even a good USA list. A terrible “presentist” list.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
You are again and again and again missing the point. @weakera tried to explain you, yet you refuse to listen.
Don't you understand the difference between sportsman and a raw athlete ???
Laureus award is for SPORTSMAN .... Not athlete.
All athletes are sportsmen but not all sportsmen are pure athletes.
Chess players are also sportsmen since chess is an indoor sport, the laureus award was won by Tiger Woods 2 times while Ian Thorpe, Ronaldo, Kylian Mbappe all won 0 times, do you consider Tiger Woods a better athlete than Mbappe ???
Try to understand what is being told to you, don't be stubborn. Explain to him please @NeutralFan @BorgTheGOAT @RS
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
But don't make the phenomenon that by athlete I have always implied sportsmanship which is what the thread is based on. I have never meant athlete in the broad sense, that is, someone with the best athleticism but the best athlete understood as a sportsman.
I also find it annoying that you continue to tag others as if you feel the need for reinforcements, typical of those who can't handle an argument.
I repeat, I put the big three in my top 6 of the best athletes since 2000 today and I have never said athletes in a broad sense but the best in the sporting panorama. Ok, I'm Italian and I don't speak English perfectly, but it was immediately clear what I meant, which is the origin of the thread.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Ok In that case your top 6 meant sportsmen and not pure athlete. Pure athlete and sportsmen are different. You were implying sportsmen. Big 3 can be in top 10 sportsmen list for sure, not pure athletes.
Winner Sinner
Hall of Fame
Yes, that's what I meant, I repeat, not knowing English well I understand that I'm subject to misunderstandings, but from the reasons I've always tried to give it was clear that by best sportsmen I didn't mean someone with the best athletic ability but best sportsman. I know very well, for example, that in terms of athletic ability, LeBron is more gifted than Djokovic. I'm talking about greatness parameterized to one's sports, obviously tennis being one of the most important sports in the world has its impact.
She mother, she 'merican
Toni Kroos greater than Rafa Nadal?
Not a chance.
He's not even greater than Ronaldinho in the field of football.
Genie Of the Bank
Hall of Fame
1. Ali, Djokovic, Messi,Jordan
2. Nadal, Ronaldo, ,Kobe
3. Federer, Pele, LeBron
For the rest we dont care .
2. Nadal, Ronaldo, ,Kobe
3. Federer, Pele, LeBron
For the rest we dont care .
aldeayeah
G.O.A.T.
No Ronnie O'Sullivan? Pub athletes are athletes too @Poisoned Slice
TheFifthSet
Legend
If these lists were fair they’d be dominated by footballers. The entire frickin world plays that sport, whereas 78 people play tennis, 25 women play basketball and 14 people drive cars professionally.
(Rough estimates ofc, give or take a few for each.)
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