Ramos did defuse the situation after the 1st warning: lost in the plot

Badabing888 said:
That’s the point there shouldn’t be a long established pattern of ignoring it and players shouldn’t then rant when they get called up breaking this rule. A player has to play according to the umpire officiating it and Carlos is known to enforce them.Bravo to him for not ignoring them just because it was a Grand Slam final and standing up to her.
Click to expand...
So it depends on who the umpire is? That's like having to know that when officer A is patrolling the highway, the speed limit is 55, but when you get officer B, it's 65.

You want to start enforcing the rules? I applaud that. But place to start is with the 1st round of a fresh tournament. Not the final!
 
Big_Dangerous said:
It's definitely racist. A rather sickening cartoon done by a pathetic man who is clearly living in another century. For starters, Serena didn't stomp like a 2-year-old. She was adamant and took it too far, yes, but that cartoon is just pathetic. Also, Osaka never said anything during the match that I can recall. She was even sorry that it turned out that way. Plus, look at the cartoonist's depiction of her? That looks nothing like Osaka... It looks close to Maria Sharapova if anything. It's not funny. It's disgusting and demeaning, and the cartoonist deserves to be fired for that.
Click to expand...
True that the other player in the cartoon looks nothing like Osaka. Maybe the cartoonist should have researched his topic better? I think he probably doesn't follow tennis.

But the cartoon doesn't imply that Osaka said anything. Just shows the umpire talking to her. He's having fun with Serena about getting so upset about how good Osaka is. Up until Saturday, it was clear that Serena was the best ever. But Naomi looks like she's going to take that label away from her. Go Naomi!
 
Steady Eddy said:
So it depends on who the umpire is? That's like having to know that when officer A is patrolling the highway, the speed limit is 55, but when you get officer B, it's 65.

You want to start enforcing the rules? I applaud that. But place to start is with the 1st round of a fresh tournament. Not the final!
Click to expand...

Of course it depends on the official officiating the match. Carlos was officiating this match and he called it as he saw it. Carlos does enforce them and is consistent - I read he called Novak for coaching violation in his match v Cecchinato at RG this year. Players have got to be ready all the time and take it on the chin if they are called up for breaking the rules - Serena was this time; her reaction to it and turning it into something it wasn’t within the context of this match and conflating it with wider issue of sexism in the sport is what has caused this furore, not Carlos Ramos.
 
Badabing888 said:
Of course it depends on the official officiating the match. Carlos was officiating this match and he called it as he saw it. Carlos does enforce them and is consistent - I read he called Novak for coaching violation in his match v Cecchinato at RG this year. Players have got to be ready all the time and take it on the chin if they are called up for breaking the rules - Serena was this time; her reaction to it and turning it into something it wasn’t within the context of this match and conflating it with wider issue of sexism in the sport is what has caused this furore, not Carlos Ramos.
Click to expand...
Maybe we can agree on this? Let's get all the umpires on the same page. Keep it as consistent from umpire to umpire as is humanly possible. That can only be good for the sport.
 
terribleIVAN said:




The medias are having a blast denouncing this cartoon as racist.

Wonder why.
Click to expand...

terribleIvan

A truly great representation of Serena Williams, except for one thing. She most definitely has much much darker skin. Was the cartoonist
trying to be polite? Of course we can't see much of Osaka's facial features to be able to see she is Japanese and black, but that bleached
blonde ponytail is a dead give away. The pacifier in the foreground was the ultimate insult, however, it extremely represents SW's actions.

Aloha
 
And who said racism was not an issue?

Aloha

kramer woodie said:
terribleIvan

A truly great representation of Serena Williams, except for one thing. She most definitely has much much darker skin. Was the cartoonist
trying to be polite? Of course we can't see much of Osaka's facial features to be able to see she is Japanese and black, but that bleached
blonde ponytail is a dead give away. The pacifier in the foreground was the ultimate insult, however, it extremely represents SW's actions.

Aloha
Click to expand...
 
Steady Eddy said:
Maybe we can agree on this? Let's get all the umpires on the same page. Keep it as consistent from umpire to umpire as is humanly possible. That can only be good for the sport.
Click to expand...

I can agree that that is a completely different issue - consistency of enforceability of rules. But that is not up to Carlos Ramos - that is an ITF/ATP/WTA issue in the wider context of officiating at all levels of the game. Within the context of this match Carlos can only enforce it as he saw it and he was spot on imo and in accordance with the rules.
 
Steady Eddy said:
In one sense you're right. His organization has defended him, as they should. If you go by the book, he followed it. This is like a cop who gets all kinds of complaints, but is technically, within his rights. His department is going to defend him. But privately, his captain will take him aside and tell him he's got to do better.

Why bring up this 'coaching violation' when you can pretend you don't notice? After all, this is a slam final. Then the busted racquet would be just a warning. Then the tirade wouldn't have happened. Serena would have lost anyway, and there'd be no booing at Naomi's acceptance. Better all around. If he's only a bureaucrat, then what he did is 'good enough'. But if we have high expectations, (and we should for a slam final), he's over his head.
Click to expand...

Why would he pretend to not see a coaching violation, if in his opinion it could influence the outcome of the match?

You do realise that in fact Osaka was the one that was a first time finalist and wasn't getting any coaching, and the 23 times Major champion and more time finalist was the one trying to receive and receiving one?

You think that that is immaterial to the situation?

8-)
 
Tennis_Hands said:
Why would he pretend to not see a coaching violation, if in his opinion it could influence the outcome of the match?

You do realise that in fact Osaka was the one that was a first time finalist and wasn't getting any coaching, and the 23 times Major champion and more time finalist was the one trying to receive and receiving one?

You think that that is immaterial to the situation?

:cool:
Click to expand...
Yeah, Naomi was beating her anyway. She's just too good.
 
Steady Eddy said:
Ramos screwed up. The point of his job was to avoid what happened. He didn't get the job done. And a better umpire would have got the job done.

We don't need a "rules are rules" bot. Is he stupid? He could have handled it better, but he didn't. And, btw, I'm not a Serena fan.


Ramos blew it, but I will defend him from sexism. He's just incompetent, not sexist.
Click to expand...

He's one of the most competent umpires.
 
If umpire would be black married woman with a daughter then fake champion would invent some other -isms to call umpire that.
 
Steady Eddy said:
Yeah, Naomi was beating her anyway. She's just too good.
Click to expand...

Your comment has nothing to do with your contention and my subsequent response, so I will ask again: why should the umpire pretend to not see the coaching violation, if it could in his opinion influence the outcome of the match?

8-)
 
According to Navratilova, most umpires give a soft warning initially if they see such. It's hard not to see this as the better approach to coaching.

The fact is that they don't have to concern themselves with whether this could influence the outcome of the match. They just have to stop the coach.

The better penalty would be to have them immediately removed from the court.

Tennis_Hands said:
Your comment has nothing to do with your contention and my subsequent response, so I will ask again: why should the umpire pretend to not see the coaching violation, if it could in his opinion influence the outcome of the match?

:cool:
Click to expand...
 
Bartelby said:
According to Navratilova, most umpires give a soft warning initially if they see such. It's hard not to see this as the better approach to coaching.

The fact is that they don't have to concern themselves with whether this could influence the outcome of the match. They just have to stop the coach.

The better penalty would be to have them immediately removed from the court.
Click to expand...

She doesn't give context to the situations when such soft warnings happen.

The easiest way to obscure an issue is to bury it under a pile of undrscript "similar" issues and start from there.

It was in a GS final, the opponents were of vastly different experience, and one doesn't have to be exactly a genius to see how such actions could have altered the course of that hugely important match.

By the time the soft warning was exhausted as an option it might have been too late.

Then there is the issue of when a "soft" warning turns into "hard" warning.

One warning?

Two?

There are no written rules about that, so it is up in the air.

And, seeing what transpired, I wouldn't be surprised, if Serena and her team have used the "soft" warning as a precedent to claim the bias of the umpire, since he already allowed an unlawful play, so it weren't the rules that were the problem.

A certain modicum of reasonable attitude is necessary to see what this situation contained.

As to whether it is better to do what you propose, Ramos didn't have that option without creating even bigger ****storm. The only reasonable solution is that coaches and coaching stuff is not allowed in the stadium, but even then, who is to guarantee that a player cannot do it with instructed relatives/friends?

:cool:
 
I'm not sure anyboy could make any sense of this series of rather lame insults.

BorgCash said:
clear example of stupid primitive man' logic. if you call it a racist carttoon even thousand times it will not became a racist cartoon, only in the weak brain of real racist.
Click to expand...
 
Bartelby said:
Navratilova's position is based on considerable expertise, so I will rely on it.
Click to expand...

I really didn't expect such a radical departure from your way of looking at the problem, but if we are going to go that path, Ramos has even more experience than Navratilova with such situations, so I will rely on it.

8-)
 
Ramos is a party to the dispute whereas Navratilova offered a detached view which contained an overall negative view of Serena's conduct so I think I'm on safer ground here.

Tennis_Hands said:
I really didn't expect such a radical departure from your way of looking at the problem, but if we are going to go that path, Ramos has even more experience than Navratilova with such situations, so I will rely on it.

:cool:
Click to expand...
 
Bartelby said:
Ramos is a party to the dispute whereas Navratilova offered a detached view which contained an overall negative view of Serena's conduct so I think I'm on safer ground here.
Click to expand...

Could you describe his interests as a "party"?

Also, Navratilova offered "detached" view?

Could you describe what makes her view detached?

8-)
 
Many articles also seem to just cite the word "thief".

But Serena also said "You will never, ever, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You are the liar. When are you going to give me my apology? You owe me an apology. Say it. Say you're sorry."

In addition, many articles or other celebrities are quick to say that men get away with saying worse. Has there been any research as to whether other WTA players get penalized with saying similar things? Or is it just Serena? What about men who also have a known history of verbally abusing officials?

It seems there is little effort from the media or other celebrities to prove Serena's allegations, but they are quick to accuse Ramos. It seems unfair to Ramos because he is being bullied before evidence is produced, and he has little starpower for any recourse.

Also, as others have pointed out, even if men are let off easier, it does not mean Serena was unfairly treated. Her behaviour was correctly addressed, and if her allegations are true then it just means men should also be subject to stricter treatment.
 
RoddickAce said:
Many articles also seem to just cite the word "thief".

But Serena also said "You will never, ever, ever be on another court of mine as long as you live. You are the liar. When are you going to give me my apology? You owe me an apology. Say it. Say you're sorry."

In addition, many articles or other celebrities are quick to say that men get away with saying worse. Has there been any research as to whether other WTA players get penalized with saying similar things? Or is it just Serena? What about men who also have a known history of verbally abusing officials?

It seems there is little effort from the media or other celebrities to prove Serena's allegations, but they are quick to accuse Ramos. It seems unfair to Ramos because he is being bullied before evidence is produced, and he has little starpower for any recourse.

Also, as others have pointed out, even if men are let off easier, it does not mean Serena was unfairly treated. Her behaviour was correctly addressed, and if her allegations are true then it just means men should also be subject to stricter treatment.
Click to expand...
Didn't Nadal use the same exact words against Carlos Bernades twice. Threatning to have him never to officiate on of his matches again. Which IIRC Nadal has gone through with. Yet the media weren't hounding that story and it wasn't nearly as big as it is now.
 
My pet theory: Umpiring has nothing to do with it and is an excuse to avoid the real issue. The offender encountered a younger, fitter version of herself, resultingly could not compete, and had a psychological breakdown as a result. An on-court mid-life crisis, if you will. It happens to everyone in some way, but had the misfortune to occur under video cameras and during the test of nerves that is professional sport. None of this has to do with the political issues that are being used a psychological cover.
 
Man of steel said:
Didn't Nadal use the same exact words against Carlos Bernades twice. Threatning to have him never to officiate on of his matches again. Which IIRC Nadal has gone through with. Yet the media weren't hounding that story and it wasn't nearly as big as it is now.
Click to expand...

Nadal said "I will make sure that you don't arbitrate me anymore. I have nothing personal against you, but you put me in a lot of pressure. It is not right; you have to see the video again."

I don't see any personal attacks on one's character there.

The umpires are human too and being called a liar and thief without proof seems a bit like a personal attack/slander?

Also, Carlos Ramos is known for being sticter with rules. If the issue Serena brought up was that there are inconsistencies between umpires then fine. But she brought in sexism, and yet made another personal accusation at Carlos Ramos without proof.

Furthermore, showing instances of men being let off easier does not = sexism.

To make that allegation, she needs to show that i) Carlos Ramos was less strict with men, and ii) that other women said similar things to Carlos Ramos and were penalized. She hasn't supported this.

Also, Nadal's story didn't become bigger because he didn't rally people and bring in some form of discrimination to blow up the story.
 
Steady Eddy said:
But if there has been a long established pattern of ignoring the 'no coaching rule', why enforce it all of a sudden? Much less waiting until the final to do it. Instead, at next year's open, announce that starting that year, you're going to be strict about he rule. I bet where you live everyone goes 10 mph over the speed limit on the highway. How would you like it if all of a sudden, they ticketed you for going 1 mph over the limit?

Rules are made to be broken. Sometimes it makes sense to look the other way. Most cops, teachers, and anyone in authority knows this.
Click to expand...
I am a teacher and no, the last thing you want is "look the other way". You have to do the exact opposite: address the problems when they are still small and manageable and never ignore. If you don't do anything and let things get out of control in terms of class management, the situation becomes overwhelming and good luck to reverse it. (I think all teachers have learned that lesson the hard, sometimes very hard ;), way)
Another side of it is: if Serena wants to be the badass of WTA and break rules, go ahead but then she needs to handle the consequences like a badass too and not revert to "oh no how can they persecute a poor defenseless woman like me sob sob" once the hammer falls. You wanna act the tough guy, then be consistent and take it like a tough guy.
As for the ump, why shouldn't he enforce the rules? That's his job. Serena has a history of bullying/threatening behavior at the USO, so people could be on their guard with her for that reason and that's understandable. Please, don't be a bully enabler, even if in this case the bully happens not to be a white male. It is not up to the officials to change their level of "strictness" or rule breaking tolerance to accommodate Serena's lack of tolerance for frustration. It is up to Serena to manage her anger in less damaging ways.
 
Bartelby said:
It is unambiguously a racist cartoon. Cartoonists have been sacked for anti-Semitism for far, far less.
Click to expand...

How should a satyrical cartoonist draw a caricature of Serena (and drawing caricatures of people is what they do) without it being labelled 'racist'?
 
Steady Eddy said:
You're right. Mostly this was about Serena running into a better player, and not handling that well. So Ramos job was to handle a player who is emotionally falling apart. Being strict just made her meltdown more. A more insightful umpire, would have turned a deaf ear to her tantrum, because she doesn't mean it, and Naomi and the fans, deserve to see the match played to its conclusion, without a tarnished outcome.
Click to expand...
If you turn a deaf ear, she will escalate the threats, that's what bullies do. He tried to appease her at first and all that did was embolden her to up the aggression level in her accusations. She needs boundaries. She was begging for them and she got them. Interestingly, once he showed firmness,the anger subsided and she collapsed into tears. This is all about nerves and she has to make efforts to handle them better. If she is not showing that she's making any effort to improve her coping skills, then she cannot expect people to sympathize. She's not trying to change for sheer arrogance and that's a shame , no matter how many titles she's won. A little humility and lucidity has never hurt anyone, male or female, rich or poor, black or white, famous or not.
 
Mainad said:
How should a satyrical cartoonist draw a caricature of Serena (and drawing caricatures of people is what they do) without it being labelled 'racist'?
Click to expand...

If you can't see the difference between this:

william-tantrums_759_amul.jpg


and this:

23ff2b96-8049-487e-bca8-c5630c6563d4.jpg


You're probably a racist.
 
Last edited:
veroniquem said:
I am a teacher and no, the last thing you want is "look the other way". You have to do the exact opposite: address the problems when they are still small and manageable and never ignore. If you don't do anything and let things get out of control in terms of class management, the situation becomes overwhelming and good luck to reverse it. (I think all teachers have learned that lesson the hard, sometimes very hard ;), way)
Another side of it is: if Serena wants to be the badass of WTA and break rules, go ahead but then she needs to handle the consequences like a badass too and not revert to "oh no how can they persecute a poor defenseless woman like me sob sob" once the hammer falls. You wanna act the tough guy, then be consistent and take it like a tough guy.
As for the ump, why shouldn't he enforce the rules? That's his job. Serena has a history of bullying/threatening behavior at the USO, so people could be on their guard with her for that reason and that's understandable. Please, don't be a bully enabler, even if in this case the bully happens not to be a white male. It is not up to the officials to change their level of "strictness" or rule breaking tolerance to accommodate Serena's lack of tolerance for frustration. It is up to Serena to manage her anger in less damaging ways.
Click to expand...
I tried being a teacher. Didn't like it. I still like mathematics, though.
 
Mainad said:
Do you think the person depicted in either cartoon looked anything like Serena? Would you have recognised her if you didn't know what the story was about?
Click to expand...

The only way some people would say a cartoon about Serena was not racist would be if it made her more attractive than in real life. But that would negate the point of the commentary. Basically, those folks will not accept any caricatures of black people.
 
HouTex said:
The only way some people would say a cartoon about Serena was not racist would be if it made her more attractive than in real life. But that would negate the point of the commentary. Basically, those folks will not accept any caricatures of black people.
Click to expand...

I love when people like yourself have to blatantly lie to maintain your warped view of reality. It's not like a non-racist caricature of Serena wasn't just posted three comments above your own but sure, "Basically, those folks will not accept any caricatures of black people." :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Mainad said:
Do you think the person depicted in either cartoon looked anything like Serena? Would you have recognised her if you didn't know what the story was about?
Click to expand...

The tennis apparel gives it away but no, I don't believe either looks anything like Serena. But one certainly looks a lot closer to the generic racist caricature than the other. You didn't answer my question though, can you see the difference between the two caricatures I posted or do they all look alike to you?
 
Service Ace said:
The tennis apparel gives it away but no, I don't believe either looks anything like Serena. But one certainly looks a lot closer to the generic racist caricature than the other. You didn't answer my question though, can you see the difference between the two caricatures I posted or do they all look alike to you?
Click to expand...

Of course I can see the difference and the 2nd one is clearly and absurdly meant to be racist. But my point is that a skilful cartoonist will be able convey the unmistakeable likeness of their subject albeit in exaggerated form, hence a caricature, and one should be able to recognise that person with no difficulty or the cartoonist is no good at their job. But my question stands: is there any cartoon of Serena that you would recognise as her that you would not label as racist?
 
Mainad said:
How should a satyrical cartoonist draw a caricature of Serena (and drawing caricatures of people is what they do) without it being labelled 'racist'?
Click to expand...
Start off by not drawing the typical big lips that you see in every racist caricature of black people. Even Disney know this
 
Mainad said:
Of course I can see the difference and the 2nd one is clearly and absurdly meant to be racist. But my point is that a skilful cartoonist will be able convey the unmistakeable likeness of their subject albeit in exaggerated form, hence a caricature, and one should be able to recognise that person with no difficulty or the cartoonist is no good at their job. But my question stands: is there any cartoon of Serena that you would recognise as her that you would not label as racist?
Click to expand...

I already linked you one.

william-tantrums_759_amul.jpg
 
Why is it so difficult for you to admit that the sketch is racist is a better question? You already admitted you can see the exaggerated jim crow era features the Australian cartoonist chose to highlight but for some reason you don't want to make that final connection between that and a caricature that calls back to it's racist heritage.
 
Mainad said:
But you admitted you wouldn't recognise that cartoon as one of Serena (if you hadn't already known the story).
Click to expand...

I misinterpreted the question. I thought you meant if I would recognize that one vs the Australian one based on their features alone. Neither "looks" like Serena but one definitely looks like a generic racist caricature.
 
the cartoon is reminiscent of images from a disturbing past.. the hair in its top pony tail..frizzed out and standing straight up..the oversized lips.. it does however look like Serena. you know it is meant to represent her. it is not flattering..and it is not meant to be..it is the personification of her behavior. it could still portray the same message and be toned down.. not sure it is racist.. not sure it isn't either.. tough challenge to make an unflattering image of a black person by a white cartoonist and not question the heart behind the image
 
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