Rank Djokovic's level on clay, fast hard, grass

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Young Djoker(2007-2010):
Slow HC>Clay=Fast HC>>>>>>>>Grass
Peak body Djoker(2011-2013):
Slow HC>Clay>Fast HC>Grass
"Becker" Djokovic:
Slow HC>Clay>Grass>>>Fast HC
Noticing a massive grass improvement under Becker(peaked in 2014 and 2015) and sharp decline on fast HC(except for US15 and Shanghai 15+Toronto 16 final,Djokovic was pretty subpar)
Young Djoker used to be a great player at USO and good one at Cincy+Canada.
 
SHC
clay
grass
FHC


Grass is his third best surface and yet only three players in the open era have won more Wimbys!

(Cue talk of weak era/slow courts in 3,2,1...)

Why do you think he's better on grass than fast hard? My theory is he's better on slow courts in general, but also has a very good serve and GOAT return which helps on grass, but not as much as fast HC, which plays almost as fast as grass anyway. Also the bounce is lower on grass which he's fine with and might actually like.
 
1. Slow hard court
2. Clay
3. Grass
4. Fast hard court

Nah I think his play on fast hard courts is better than grass. True he has won three wimbledons but I think his play on fast hard in generally better; his resume at Dubai/Cincy has actually been quite good and making 10 consecutice semi finals at The USO (I know it's now a "medium" pace court, but still) Is also impressive
 
1. Grass
2. Clay
3. Fast hard

I've been saying for years that decoturf is his worst surface. He was very lucky to win a 2nd USO last year.
 
Why do you think he's better on grass than fast hard? My theory is he's better on slow courts in general, but also has a very good serve and GOAT return which helps on grass, but not as much as fast HC, which plays almost as fast as grass anyway. Also the bounce is lower on grass which he's fine with and might actually like.

His baseline game on grass is just as good as his baseline game on fast HC. But, relative to the field, his baseline game is far superior. It's very hard to do what he does on grass. He also has a very good 1st strike after the serve and he's very tough to break on it.
 
1. The surface.

There is only one surface. It's medium-slow. I suppose technically there are rinky dink tournaments nobody but Ivo Karlovic cares about that are still played on fast grass or carpet. But every other surface, everywhere in the known universe, is medium-slow. And most importantly, all four slams play identically.
 
1. The surface.

There is only one surface. It's medium-slow. I suppose technically there are rinky dink tournaments nobody but Ivo Karlovic cares about that are still played on fast grass or carpet. But every other surface, everywhere in the known universe, is medium-slow. And most importantly, all four slams play identically.

really, why was Rafa able to dominate Roland Garros and not the other slams then?
 
@mandy01 , I said earlier that if Djokovic won the USO an argument could be made that he would be equal to Federer or maybe slightly ahead as hc goat. Strike that. You are right, Federer has a better slam distribution between the AO and USO hc slams. There is no way Djokovic can be considered hc goat with two or even three USO titles no matter how many Masters 1000s on hc he has. He would need to win a couple of more USO titles. It will obviously get much closer if he can win even one more USO but at two USOs not a chance he can be considered hc goat when Federer has 5 USOs (consecutive) and 4 AOs.

As for the question of the thread, the only place Djokovic wows me is on slow hc. He's obviously good on all other surfaces but slow hc is where he shines.
 
@mandy01 , I said earlier that if Djokovic won the USO an argument could be made that he would be equal to Federer or maybe slightly ahead as hc goat. Strike that. You are right, Federer has a better slam distribution between the AO and USO hc slams. There is no way Djokovic can be considered hc goat with two or even three USO titles no matter how many Masters 1000s on hc he has. He would need to win a couple of more USO titles. It will obviously get much closer if he can win even one more USO but at two USOs not a chance he can be considered hc goat when Federer has 5 USOs (consecutive) and 4 AOs.

As for the question of the thread, the only place Djokovic wows me is on slow hc. He's obviously good on all other surfaces but slow hc is where he shines.

I agree he'd need 4 USOs to be seen as overall hc GOAT. slow hc is definitely his forte.
 
Young Djoker(2007-2010):
Slow HC>Clay=Fast HC>>>>>>>>Grass
Peak body Djoker(2011-2013):
Slow HC>Clay>Fast HC>Grass
"Becker" Djokovic:
Slow HC>Clay>Grass>>>Fast HC
Noticing a massive grass improvement under Becker(peaked in 2014 and 2015) and sharp decline on fast HC(except for US15 and Shanghai 15+Toronto 16 final,Djokovic was pretty subpar)
Young Djoker used to be a great player at USO and good one at Cincy+Canada.
Good post.
He's improved on grass. Right now I'd agree with 125 and RF20Lennon's rankings above for sure, but three years ago I wouldn't have.
 
His baseline game on grass is just as good as his baseline game on fast HC. But, relative to the field, his baseline game is far superior. It's very hard to do what he does on grass. He also has a very good 1st strike after the serve and he's very tough to break on it.

I agree decoturf is his weakest surface. I don't see why some of the skills that help on grass, namely the serve and return don't help on faster hard court. The field probably is more challenging there , as many do not play well on grass (Wawrinka for example).

I think it's a shame, because he could have been seen as just the all time great hard court player all around, but now he's sort of an enigma. A slow court player who is damn good on grass too, but falters plenty at the US Open.
 
then I'd go grass, clay, fast hard. In certain years like 07-08 and 11 where he showed impressive form on fast hard that might be changed.

I think he's probably better on clay than grass, just that Nadal was unbeatable for everyone for such a long time.
 
on the slower more true bouncing grass he has had some impressive showings. On clay he can still get a little passive and sometimes his shots don't penetrate the court. On the firmer grass he has a great great mix of offense and defense.

Yeah that's true, his great returns and depth are impressive on grass...on clay though, a lot of his faltering has happened at RG, wilting under the pressure and/or facing Nadal. He has been passive and I even have spoken about how he has seemed not totally suited to the B05 clay grind.

But, I still think his game is better suited to clay just in terms of his skills and what he can bring to the table on both surfaces. I think if you look at his whole clay career, not just RG, some of his best performances have come on the red stuff. I disagree about penetrating the court if he's not being overly passive. As in, Rome '11, 14, '15 , MC '13 and '15, and many RG matches vs. Nadal including the one he won last year and particularly the RG 13 sf and even the year before he was clobbering the ball for parts. I'd say his shots seemed more pentrating than Nadal at times even.
 
Agreed. Basically it's just the opposite order of Fed.

Not really, slow hard court is definitely better for Federer than clay. I would argue for grass over fast HC as well but you could at least make an argument there.
 
Not really, slow hard court is definitely better for Federer than clay. I would argue for grass over fast HC as well but you could at least make an argument there.

Well, depends how you look at it. Titles != performance. But the thread is about Djokovic, so I'll leave it at that.
 
I'd go

1. Grass

2. Clay

3. Fast HC

His peak on grass is higher than on clay. Hence my ranking.


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Not really, slow hard court is definitely better for Federer than clay. I would argue for grass over fast HC as well but you could at least make an argument there.

Fed is

1. Grass

2. Fast HC

3. Slow HC

4. Clay

That goes from fastest to slowest, actually.

Nadal is difficult because after Clay, it's hard to say...it's probably fast HC, but he had an extended great grass run with 2 Wimbys before falling off, and slow HC he's always been competitive, just had some bad luck at AO relative to perhaps some good luck at USO. I do believe fast HC, as long as it's not blazing fast, might actually suit him a bit better than slow HC, as his ball has more action as long as the bounce is still reasonably high.

To me Novak is the most interesting, because he appears to excel on slower courts, but clearly isn't as good on clay, which is even slower than slow HC. Probably due to the different movement on clay, and how it rewards spinnier shots. Even with Nadal in the picture, I think it's clear Novak's level is way higher on slow hc... then as courts get faster, he can struggle, but on the fastest courts of all, grass courts...he's done quite well. You can argue the grass is "slow", but it's still faster than the US. It's possible that the serve and return is rewarded more on grass than fast hc's, and the difference in speed isn't enough to outweigh that or help Novak relatively on fast hc's. In that same vein, many of the faster outdoor hards have some pop and action with a decent height bounce. This isn't ideal for Novak, who probably leans toward preferring slow and low courts. Look at indoor performance...
 
Fed is

1. Grass

2. Fast HC

3. Slow HC

4. Clay

That goes from fastest to slowest, actually.

Nadal is difficult because after Clay, it's hard to say...it's probably fast HC, but he had an extended great grass run with 2 Wimbys before falling off, and slow HC he's always been competitive, just had some bad luck at AO relative to perhaps some good luck at USO. I do believe fast HC, as long as it's not blazing fast, might actually suit him a bit better than slow HC, as his ball has more action as long as the bounce is still reasonably high.

To me Novak is the most interesting, because he appears to excel on slower courts, but clearly isn't as good on clay, which is even slower than slow HC. Probably due to the different movement on clay, and how it rewards spinnier shots. Even with Nadal in the picture, I think it's clear Novak's level is way higher on slow hc... then as courts get faster, he can struggle, but on the fastest courts of all, grass courts...he's done quite well. You can argue the grass is "slow", but it's still faster than the US. It's possible that the serve and return is rewarded more on grass than fast hc's, and the difference in speed isn't enough to outweigh that or help Novak relatively on fast hc's. In that same vein, many of the faster outdoor hards have some pop and action with a decent height bounce. This isn't ideal for Novak, who probably leans toward preferring slow and low courts. Look at indoor performance...

I find assessing Novak's clay level hard tbh. I think his best showings at Wimbledon have been up there or above his best showings at the FO. Novak has some great performances in masters and especially Rome though that bump him up somewhat.
 
I find assessing Novak's clay level hard tbh. I think his best showings at Wimbledon have been up there or above his best showings at the FO. Novak has some great performances in masters and especially Rome though that bump him up somewhat.

Yeah, he's not performed as well at RG compared to Wimby, even accounting for having to play Rafa so many times there. His clay masters performance is what makes me hike him up on clay. I'd be curious to see if he can win another RG.

Clay/grass order is debateable for him for sure.
 
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